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VN Ren'Py Mythos: Book One [v5.0.1 Hotfix] [Nine of Swords]

4.80 star(s) 63 Votes

Nine of Swords

Keeping the Legends Alive
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Dec 17, 2017
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It's probably better that way. It helps you ignore unnecessary flags and variables, while only dealing with the most necessary ones.

You also don't necessarily need to do a KotOR2/Mass Effect 2/Witcher 3 style dialogue where you ask the player about all of their flags in a single conversation in-game early on, but you could spread those choices out over time, and have them come up contextually. Like, say, Book Two Nelson doesn't mention Tara in their internal monologue, but then they bump into someone from high school who mentions Tara and says "Hey, are you two still super-besties like you used to be?", and then you can have dialogue choices like "Yes we are", "We actually started dating", or "We actually started dating, but then we kind of grew apart", which would then set your flag for Tara Romance to "No", "Yes", or "Ended". Or Mara shows up and while Nelson is thinking to themselves about how helpful they were in solving Lisa's murder, you get a choice like "Mara was really helpful, I'm glad we're friends" or "And then we became more than friends, and that's awesome."

It could even give you a bit more granularity - like if you want to distinguish between someone who did the sex ritual with Rain because they were desperate to solve the crime, someone who did the sex ritual because Rain's really hot, and someone who avoided the sex ritual entirely because they weren't interested.

In the same way, it could even add nuance to past scenes that the current flags don't allow for. Like if the current flags are really only Romance=yes or Romance=no, you could have a conversation in Book Two that discusses hooking up with Sophia and you get choices like "To be honest, I kind of thought she was hot for a while!" or "It was kind of just an impulsive spur-of-the-moment hook up" or "It was mostly just kind of a pity hook-up because I felt a bit bad for her?"

That way you only really only have to reestablish relationships or events shortly before they become relevant again, rather than overwhelming potential new players with a ton of questions all at once (which was really an issue in Witcher 3, where they spend a full scene asking you about people and events you may know nothing about to establish all the major Witcher 2 flags). And you can define them in whatever way makes them useful for the new game, not just to accurately reflect the previous game's world state.
This is... exactly how I was going to do it! Especially because I don't like the conventions I used to create variables now that I have a better grasp on how this whole thing works.

It wasn't going to be just one conversation at the start, but various ones as they come up, that also let you choose context (ie - the reasons for Rainsex) or to even change your mind about relationships (breaking up with someone, especially if they turn out to be the killer).

And yes, this also allows for people to play Book Two without having played Book One, but I think most people will have wanted to start from the beginning.
 

SlapE

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2022
1,675
4,628
I really enjoyed the update but damn, I keep having more questions at the end of every update, and also... I really hope next chapter we get to have some more fun with Mara. :sneaky:

Tara and Mara are definitely my favorites. :love:
 
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ClockworkGnome

Active Member
Sep 18, 2021
737
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This is... exactly how I was going to do it! Especially because I don't like the conventions I used to create variables now that I have a better grasp on how this whole thing works.

It wasn't going to be just one conversation at the start, but various ones as they come up, that also let you choose context (ie - the reasons for Rainsex) or to even change your mind about relationships (breaking up with someone, especially if they turn out to be the killer).
"I can't be your girlfriend anymore Tara! You said you're cool with me sexing up other women but it turns out you're really a crazy yandere who murdered my last girlfriend to get to me! ...we can still keep having sex on the side though, as long as you promise not to murder any more girlfriends."

Also, I'd like to point out that Rainsex sounds funny to me. Like if someone didn't know the context and was trying to figure out what Rainsex was. It sounds like some kind of fetish or something.


And yes, this also allows for people to play Book Two without having played Book One, but I think most people will have wanted to start from the beginning.
People can be weird. There's a sort of bias towards playing the "newest" game (especially if it's the one people are currently talking about), so a lot of people will start with a later game and then work their way backward if they like it.

I know for me personally I started with Saints Row III and only went back to play the first two when it turned out I really loved the third one. And I know there were a ton of people who only got into the Witcher games with 3 and then went back to play the first two after they wound up loving the third.

So it's always a good idea as a dev to assume that the game you're currently working on is always going to be someone's first glimpse into your world. So you always want to try and make new games accessible to new players while still trying to keep them appealing to people who've been ride-or-die with you from the start. It can be a hard balance to keep, but things like optional recaps or codex entries can make it a bit easier.

There's actually a saying in the comic book industry - "Every issue is someone's first comic." It's supposed to be a reminder that you don't want to make comics so convoluted and confusing that you have to have been reading for years to understand, because this may be the issue that someone picks up for the first time, and if you alienate them they may never pick up another. But if you can appeal to them they may start buying more. But it's a good rule of thumb for creative endeavors in general - you always want to try and be aware that not everyone is an obsessed weirdo spending years discussing the most minute details of your story and characters on a message board. So each game should be at least somewhat standalone so new players don't feel completely overwhelmed.

It sounds like you've got a pretty good grip on that for Book Two, though. :D


I don't know how to bake a cake but I can say when that shit tastes good.
This is always sort of my position when people complain about "You can't criticize X unless you do X." "Oh, you can't criticize the artistic choices of that film because you're not a director!" "I'd like to see you write a novel before you criticize that story!"

It's like, sorry, but I don't have to be a chef to know when one serves me a dog turd in a bun and calls it a hot dog. You can appreciate (or criticize) tons of things without being able to do those things yourself. I don't have to be a musician to enjoy music. I don't have to be able to code and develop an entire video game to have opinions about video games.

Things that are meant to be appreciated and enjoyed aesthetically can also be discussed even without one iota of ability to replicate those things.

That being said, on the subject of the actual visual shift, I noticed it as well and definitely prefer the original designs more than the newer ones... but it also wasn't that huge of a shift in my opinion to the point where it detracted from my enjoyment of the game so I never really thought about it all that much. It's definitely not as bad as some games on this site where a game loses its original artist and everything that happens after a certain point in the game looks way off-model because the new artist has a significantly different art-style.

Mara still looks like Mara to me, Tara still looks like Tara to me, and so on. So minor variations are acceptable.


Honestly my biggest question would be why, because I don't think either would murder her in fit of preemptive jealousy over an Ex who broke up with the MC anyway, which seems like it would be the only real link there for all 3 at once. :unsure: :LOL:
To play Devil's Avocado, even though Lisa broke up with us, multiple characters have told us it was very clear she was still deeply in love with us. And we can play our character as if we're still not over her (I was definitely picking those dialogue choices). So there was always the threat that we could have gotten back together. Especially if it ever became obvious that we weren't ordinary either (since Lisa only broke up with us to protect us because she thought we were a normal human and thus in danger from her new life).

So what better way to prevent a reconciliation and keep us on the market than removing the potential obstacle?

"Lisa-as-perceived rival" is great motivation for some of the suspects (Tara, Becki, Sophia and B for starters). It's even technically motivation for Monica (Lisa still loves us more than her new girlfriend, so Monica lashes out in a jealous rage...).

The real question is mostly whether or not someone else had a better motive...


from the ennai - it could be cecil , right ? if he´s possesed - the, from him ,mentioned "nap´s" he takes making more sense
time for the demon to take over , no ?


and for the cat - a piece of lisa´s soul to watch over the mc :unsure:
Cecil's been my prime suspect for a very long time now. And the cat as a manifestation of what's left of Lisa's soul has been my go-to explanation for the cat for a while. Which would explain why it's clearly helping us solve her murder.
 

DeltaDragon

Member
May 6, 2017
365
324
Ok gotta say this update was dissapointingly short for how long it took to get here, it only just hits about a full day in-game but only 6-7 unique parts before it ends.
 
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Boehser Onkel

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Feb 20, 2021
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"I can't be your girlfriend anymore Tara! You said you're cool with me sexing up other women but it turns out you're really a crazy yandere who murdered my last girlfriend to get to me! ...we can still keep having sex on the side though, as long as you promise not to murder any more girlfriends."

Also, I'd like to point out that Rainsex sounds funny to me. Like if someone didn't know the context and was trying to figure out what Rainsex was. It sounds like some kind of fetish or something.



People can be weird. There's a sort of bias towards playing the "newest" game (especially if it's the one people are currently talking about), so a lot of people will start with a later game and then work their way backward if they like it.

I know for me personally I started with Saints Row III and only went back to play the first two when it turned out I really loved the third one. And I know there were a ton of people who only got into the Witcher games with 3 and then went back to play the first two after they wound up loving the third.

So it's always a good idea as a dev to assume that the game you're currently working on is always going to be someone's first glimpse into your world. So you always want to try and make new games accessible to new players while still trying to keep them appealing to people who've been ride-or-die with you from the start. It can be a hard balance to keep, but things like optional recaps or codex entries can make it a bit easier.

There's actually a saying in the comic book industry - "Every issue is someone's first comic." It's supposed to be a reminder that you don't want to make comics so convoluted and confusing that you have to have been reading for years to understand, because this may be the issue that someone picks up for the first time, and if you alienate them they may never pick up another. But if you can appeal to them they may start buying more. But it's a good rule of thumb for creative endeavors in general - you always want to try and be aware that not everyone is an obsessed weirdo spending years discussing the most minute details of your story and characters on a message board. So each game should be at least somewhat standalone so new players don't feel completely overwhelmed.

It sounds like you've got a pretty good grip on that for Book Two, though. :D



This is always sort of my position when people complain about "You can't criticize X unless you do X." "Oh, you can't criticize the artistic choices of that film because you're not a director!" "I'd like to see you write a novel before you criticize that story!"

It's like, sorry, but I don't have to be a chef to know when one serves me a dog turd in a bun and calls it a hot dog. You can appreciate (or criticize) tons of things without being able to do those things yourself. I don't have to be a musician to enjoy music. I don't have to be able to code and develop an entire video game to have opinions about video games.

Things that are meant to be appreciated and enjoyed aesthetically can also be discussed even without one iota of ability to replicate those things.

That being said, on the subject of the actual visual shift, I noticed it as well and definitely prefer the original designs more than the newer ones... but it also wasn't that huge of a shift in my opinion to the point where it detracted from my enjoyment of the game so I never really thought about it all that much. It's definitely not as bad as some games on this site where a game loses its original artist and everything that happens after a certain point in the game looks way off-model because the new artist has a significantly different art-style.

Mara still looks like Mara to me, Tara still looks like Tara to me, and so on. So minor variations are acceptable.



To play Devil's Avocado, even though Lisa broke up with us, multiple characters have told us it was very clear she was still deeply in love with us. And we can play our character as if we're still not over her (I was definitely picking those dialogue choices). So there was always the threat that we could have gotten back together. Especially if it ever became obvious that we weren't ordinary either (since Lisa only broke up with us to protect us because she thought we were a normal human and thus in danger from her new life).

So what better way to prevent a reconciliation and keep us on the market than removing the potential obstacle?

"Lisa-as-perceived rival" is great motivation for some of the suspects (Tara, Becki, Sophia and B for starters). It's even technically motivation for Monica (Lisa still loves us more than her new girlfriend, so Monica lashes out in a jealous rage...).

The real question is mostly whether or not someone else had a better motive...



Cecil's been my prime suspect for a very long time now. And the cat as a manifestation of what's left of Lisa's soul has been my go-to explanation for the cat for a while. Which would explain why it's clearly helping us solve her murder.
one thing that bothers me a bit
the other vampire at the sylvia party
clearly plotting
leads me to an other theory:
maybe the cat is just her spy? who else would have send the invitation :unsure:
 
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TigerWolfe

Engaged Member
Oct 19, 2022
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People can be weird. There's a sort of bias towards playing the "newest" game (especially if it's the one people are currently talking about), so a lot of people will start with a later game and then work their way backward if they like it.
I am the opposite if there's a new hotness game I wanna play that I haven't already played prequals, I strive to play the first and if I can't for some reason it really bugs me.

Unless there's like no relation like the FF games.

*ETA: there were so many typos!
 
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Nine of Swords

Keeping the Legends Alive
Game Developer
Dec 17, 2017
901
4,504
I know for me personally I started with Saints Row III and only went back to play the first two when it turned out I really loved the third one.
I actually started with 3 as well, then played 4 and Gat out of Hell, but never got around to playing 1, 2, or the reboot.

However, I loved Saint's Row so much that it's why purple is my favourite colour now, and why I use it for everything I do. It's a happy coincidence that it means most of my stuff is in the same colours as the Asexual flag.
 

Orphanus

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2019
1,074
1,713
"I can't be your girlfriend anymore Tara! You said you're cool with me sexing up other women but it turns out you're really a crazy yandere who murdered my last girlfriend to get to me! ...we can still keep having sex on the side though, as long as you promise not to murder any more girlfriends."

Also, I'd like to point out that Rainsex sounds funny to me. Like if someone didn't know the context and was trying to figure out what Rainsex was. It sounds like some kind of fetish or something.



People can be weird. There's a sort of bias towards playing the "newest" game (especially if it's the one people are currently talking about), so a lot of people will start with a later game and then work their way backward if they like it.

I know for me personally I started with Saints Row III and only went back to play the first two when it turned out I really loved the third one. And I know there were a ton of people who only got into the Witcher games with 3 and then went back to play the first two after they wound up loving the third.

So it's always a good idea as a dev to assume that the game you're currently working on is always going to be someone's first glimpse into your world. So you always want to try and make new games accessible to new players while still trying to keep them appealing to people who've been ride-or-die with you from the start. It can be a hard balance to keep, but things like optional recaps or codex entries can make it a bit easier.

There's actually a saying in the comic book industry - "Every issue is someone's first comic." It's supposed to be a reminder that you don't want to make comics so convoluted and confusing that you have to have been reading for years to understand, because this may be the issue that someone picks up for the first time, and if you alienate them they may never pick up another. But if you can appeal to them they may start buying more. But it's a good rule of thumb for creative endeavors in general - you always want to try and be aware that not everyone is an obsessed weirdo spending years discussing the most minute details of your story and characters on a message board. So each game should be at least somewhat standalone so new players don't feel completely overwhelmed.

It sounds like you've got a pretty good grip on that for Book Two, though. :D



This is always sort of my position when people complain about "You can't criticize X unless you do X." "Oh, you can't criticize the artistic choices of that film because you're not a director!" "I'd like to see you write a novel before you criticize that story!"

It's like, sorry, but I don't have to be a chef to know when one serves me a dog turd in a bun and calls it a hot dog. You can appreciate (or criticize) tons of things without being able to do those things yourself. I don't have to be a musician to enjoy music. I don't have to be able to code and develop an entire video game to have opinions about video games.

Things that are meant to be appreciated and enjoyed aesthetically can also be discussed even without one iota of ability to replicate those things.

That being said, on the subject of the actual visual shift, I noticed it as well and definitely prefer the original designs more than the newer ones... but it also wasn't that huge of a shift in my opinion to the point where it detracted from my enjoyment of the game so I never really thought about it all that much. It's definitely not as bad as some games on this site where a game loses its original artist and everything that happens after a certain point in the game looks way off-model because the new artist has a significantly different art-style.

Mara still looks like Mara to me, Tara still looks like Tara to me, and so on. So minor variations are acceptable.



To play Devil's Avocado, even though Lisa broke up with us, multiple characters have told us it was very clear she was still deeply in love with us. And we can play our character as if we're still not over her (I was definitely picking those dialogue choices). So there was always the threat that we could have gotten back together. Especially if it ever became obvious that we weren't ordinary either (since Lisa only broke up with us to protect us because she thought we were a normal human and thus in danger from her new life).

So what better way to prevent a reconciliation and keep us on the market than removing the potential obstacle?

"Lisa-as-perceived rival" is great motivation for some of the suspects (Tara, Becki, Sophia and B for starters). It's even technically motivation for Monica (Lisa still loves us more than her new girlfriend, so Monica lashes out in a jealous rage...).

The real question is mostly whether or not someone else had a better motive...



Cecil's been my prime suspect for a very long time now. And the cat as a manifestation of what's left of Lisa's soul has been my go-to explanation for the cat for a while. Which would explain why it's clearly helping us solve her murder.
You are making a good point, though I do have to say that for at least Sophia & B it would be a bit odd since they had never really met the MC (as in getting to know them more intimately), so I feel like they wouldn't have teamed up with the others for that reason. Also it has to be said, I think, that them teaming up to prevent the MC and Lisa from reconciling would kinda be at odds with them going so far as to murder her for a mere chance at getting closer to Nelson. Also the only one to know if there even was any chance for a reconciliation is Tara, since she'd be the only one to potentially learn about any such lingering feelings from the MC's side.
For a group of psychotic would-be lovers to conspire like that I feel like there would have had to be much more of a case for such strong feelings about a supposed threat, also if all of them would commit such a crime it doesn't seem to me as if they would have gained much from bringing about Lisa's death together, instead they'd likely harbor similar feelings towards each other.
Besides all this none of them knew the MC isn't entirely human, either, if I'm not mistaken.

Edit: Or maybe I misunderstood some key element of what happened, that is also a possibility of course.
 
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TigerWolfe

Engaged Member
Oct 19, 2022
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I actually started with 3 as well, then played 4 and Gat out of Hell, but never got around to playing 1, 2, or the reboot.

However, I loved Saint's Row so much that it's why purple is my favourite colour now, and why I use it for everything I do. It's a happy coincidence that it means most of my stuff is in the same colours as the Asexual flag.
The tone was more serious in 1 and 2, more in line with what you'd expect from earlier GTA games. But as GTA got high on their own farts and got too serious, around 4, Saints went off the rails, and folks loved it.
 
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TigerWolfe

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Oct 19, 2022
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I actually started with 3 as well, then played 4 and Gat out of Hell, but never got around to playing 1, 2, or the reboot.

However, I loved Saint's Row so much that it's why purple is my favourite colour now, and why I use it for everything I do. It's a happy coincidence that it means most of my stuff is in the same colours as the Asexual flag.
Late addition.

Incidentally I played 1 and 2 (although I think 1 had a glitch and I wasn't able to finish it) on PC because I wanted to play 3 when it came out. Prior to that I was unaware of them.

Bioshock infinite coming out is what got me over my creepedoutedness to finally beat Bioshock 1 and then play 2. Mass effect 3 coming out is what got me to push through the god awful mako sections in 1 and then play 2.

I was on the Witcher train from jumpstreet though. My inner infinity engine lover is still a bit disappointed that they went all fancy with the later games.
 
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Elduriel

Engaged Member
Donor
Mar 28, 2021
2,542
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man you need to stop with the mindfucks :ROFLMAO: First Lisa appears out of nowhere, then she doesn't remember shit,then she's just like poof, gone, then she is back again. Fucking awesome.
 
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ClockworkGnome

Active Member
Sep 18, 2021
737
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I actually started with 3 as well, then played 4 and Gat out of Hell, but never got around to playing 1, 2, or the reboot.
The first game is when Saints Row was at its most GTA-influenced. It feels like what it is - a rip-off of San Andreas. The story is more serious, the main character barely speaks, and you can only play as a guy, not as a female. It has some important plot elements (you getting recruited by the Saints, introducing Gat, King, and Aisha), but you can mostly skip it.

2 still has a lot of the same vibe, but has even more ridiculous over-the-top humor elements added in, and you can definitely see it as the bridge between what 1 was and what 3 became. It's definitely a different feel from 3 and 4, but it's still pretty good in its own way (though it's going to feel very dated now). And Saints Row 4 references a lot more from it than it does from 1 (for good reason). I'd probably recommend it to people who are fans of the series, though I'd warn that it can be harder at points than 3 was, it can be grindier if you don't know some tricks for raising Respect, and people going into it looking for wacky fun adventures might be a bit put off by the darker dramatic elements.

The reboot is terrible, and no one should ever play it.

As an added review, Agents of Mayhem wasn't as terrible as people made it out to be (especially compared to the reboot), but a lot of the story and humor feels very one-note (it's basically just a shallow parody of GI Joe/80s cartoons combined with chasing the hero shooter trend of the era). It's the sort of game I didn't hate playing, but which also didn't really excite me - I can't see myself recommending it to anyone (or even really playing it again).

And yes, purple is awesome.


You are making a good point, though I do have to say that for at least Sophia & B it would be a bit odd since they had never really met the MC (as in getting to know them more intimately), so I feel like they wouldn't have teamed up with the others for that reason.
I wasn't arguing that there was a massive conspiracy to murder Lisa to pave the way to a giant Nelson harem - we're pretty well nailed down on the premise at this point that there is ONE specific killer. Other people may have ulterior motives of their own after the fact for pursuing the main character, but only one person took the step to remove Lisa from the equation (for whatever reason). No one was working as part of a group (as far as we know).

As for Sophia and B, we basically learn that Sophia has worked at that store for years and showed interest in us a while ago (which we completely ignored and then forgot about), so she's almost certainly been interested in getting to know the MC for a while now (and considering we started becoming closer to her after the murder, if she was the killer, and her motivation was solely to get closer to us, her plan apparently succeeded). Meanwhile, B shows up for the first time after the murder, retroactively alters our memory to make us think we've known her for years, and eventually reveals that she'd had a relationship with Lisa as well. So there is certainly potential motivation there.

To make matters muddier, Becki has all the signs of potentially having been interested in us longer than we realize, evidence of some sort of possible demonic pact or bargain for powers we don't yet understand, and suddenly reappeared as an active presence in our life shortly after Lisa died as well. Meanwhile Monica has been both our long-term gaming partner AND Lisa's new girlfriend (without us knowing either of those things). And Tara didn't confess her own feelings for us until after Lisa died. All three could easily have had deeper motivation for trying to remove an obstacle before making their own play.

Or this could all be trying to solve the crime through a narcissistic lens, and Lisa's connection to us has nothing to do with why she was killed - with all the tangential complications just coincidences likely triggered by the fact that we're a Beacon.

Most possible suspects have a motive, it's just a question of how strong a motive we believe it to be (and if they're evil enough to kill over it). But means and opportunity are also things worth considering. How many of our suspects would have had the ability to kill her in a way that apparently destroyed her soul and made the death look like natural causes? If Tara had done it (for example), Lisa's body probably would have been more mauled by a giant wolf of full of shotgun pellets.
 

Orphanus

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2019
1,074
1,713
I wasn't arguing that there was a massive conspiracy to murder Lisa to pave the way to a giant Nelson harem - we're pretty well nailed down on the premise at this point that there is ONE specific killer. Other people may have ulterior motives of their own after the fact for pursuing the main character, but only one person took the step to remove Lisa from the equation (for whatever reason). No one was working as part of a group (as far as we know).
Fair enough, of course, but that was literally the entire premise I was talking about beforehand, so I hope you can understand why I was assuming you were talking about that scenario as well (multiple LIs being behind the murder)
 

Hungover00

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Apr 29, 2023
1,124
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Most possible suspects have a motive, it's just a question of how strong a motive we believe it to be (and if they're evil enough to kill over it). But means and opportunity are also things worth considering. How many of our suspects would have had the ability to kill her in a way that apparently destroyed her soul and made the death look like natural causes? If Tara had done it (for example), Lisa's body probably would have been more mauled by a giant wolf of full of shotgun pellets.
Means and opportunity also diminish the probability of it being Rain (if it was premeditated). Why let yourself be the last to see her alive, and have her die near one of your areas? Unless Rain was doing something shady, Lisa interrupted or stumbled in, and it was an opportunistic killing (or friendly fire?). Rain seems like they should be more savvy than getting caught out like that, but they also seem to get things wrong (or lie), like the agency's (forgot name) goals and surveillance capabilities.

Not sure who would benefit from putting a target on Rain, but it didn't seem to be very effective if that was a goal. Perhaps they wanted something near the greenhouse and Lisa was collateral damage? Still seems extreme from what we know of the suspects so far, though Council types could be at play there. They are pretty sus' in general, no huge red flags (for me) about Lisa though, that I can recall.

Also, how do those blurry spoilers work? I always end up with the spoiler box
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Hungover00

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Apr 29, 2023
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Meanwhile, B shows up for the first time after the murder, retroactively alters our memory to make us think we've known her for years, and eventually reveals that she'd had a relationship with Lisa as well. So there is certainly potential motivation there.
Can you remind me about
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TigerWolfe

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Oct 19, 2022
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Also, how do those blurry spoilers work? I always end up with the spoiler box
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
You're looking for an inline spoiler, it's in the drop down on mobile with the three horizontal dots. Or if you're typing out the code it's "ISPOILER" instead of "SPOILER" inside the brackets.

ETA: EGADS I USED THE WRONG YOUR/YOU'RE
 
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