Yomiie
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So any idea about the new game work? Also the title itself Krongorka time to work damn a lot of work mods alright 1st timer Godot Engine
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Lyolik_PAIN
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Yomiie
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depends on the creator's choice preventing bugs and debug games players finding it hard to play though, even in translated version. I've been encounter since bullet requiem
Krongorka
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Spine made by Esoteric Software. D-Lis used a specific version 3.4.02 which is old (devs nowadays mostly use 3.8.99 or 4.1).
PJL0RIGIN
“Krongorka time to work”
Hate to disappoint, but my hands are full right now. I’d like to give it a shot sometime though. I’m already learned a lot about spine due to working on other projects, so that might help.
Cross yari (called something like red spear crossing in my game, hurray mtl) is good but personally I didn't find healing to be useful since running out of potions was a very rare occurrence. Things are certainly different if you're playing with mods. Having mp restored on hit is going to change the balance quite a bit, and perfect block and long range weapons/spells are going to be more useful if you've made dodge suck. I used perfect block less since you can dodge out of an attack much sooner than block out of it and dodge can reset your combo.
In the base game the lightning pillar is only useful if the enemy stays put and you can hit them and charge it up simultaneously. If you nerfed dodging and made enemies more threatening, it would probably have utility for wiping out mobs from a distance. The only spells I found to be remotely useful were the instant cast melee ones, sword of praise and that other worse dark version. They're good against enemies that sit still, but having to put points into mp and find openings to chug 2 pots also slows down your dps. You could theoretically use witch's prayer to sustain your mp indefinitely if combined with a healing weapon, but it's cast time is very slow and yellow health sometimes disappears randomly before you can recover it (I wonder if it's just running on fixed interval timer, like every 5 seconds the game just erases yellow health if you have any, or maybe that was just something to do with the mannequin's code?).
Testing on the mannequin I could do much higher dps just spamming attack and resetting combo with dodge using the rapier than I could using the staff + sword of praise combo. In fact just spamming sword of praise did more damage, though you run out of mana much faster. It probably has the highest dps against a stationary enemy, though I'm not sure that holds up once you factor in mp management, or bosses that move around/have iframes like the final boss.
The dual swords are fun but stamina costs are too high. With the rapier's low stamina cost and low end lag across all hits in its combo you can just stick to a boss constantly. It also has high riposte damage and more built in crit. The nameless katana is good because it can glitch and hit enemies twice in one attack more consistently than most other weapons, if you're at the right distance. It also has low stamina costs and extremely low end lag, you can dodge after an attack almost instantly. I haven't done enough testing with the nightingale or karasuageha (god knows what mtl decided to call it) to know how they stack up to the rapier. I really really wish heavy weapons did enough damage to justify their god awful speed.
I tended to switch up my build a bunch to try out new weapons (being disappointed by heavy weapons over and over again), I tried out magic a few times, but since most of the spells sucked didn't have much incentive to pursue it, maybe I'll try magic only challenge run or something. I can see why your playstyle would be very different having dodge modded to cost 100 stamina. I also find it kinda funny how maxing out your karma just lets you end the game in an anticlimax.
Krongorka
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Looking at how people are disappointed with Heavy weapons, I think I might take a look at animation frames and shorten them just for testing how it feels. I know that for enemies it makes a huge difference in reaction times and fighting in general.
Village boss test post (link with video)
To give you a better idea what I'm talking about, let's look at a big sword's first strike animation:
Default takes 143 frames:
Same animation edited to 50 frames:
Since game logic tied to spine animation frame length, you basically can strike 3 times by this same weapon instead of 1. Still consumes a lot of stamina, but I think it might be worth it.
And that's an length-edited "Full 6 Attack combo", which takes 338 frames total instead of 600+:
You can see how it translates to a real combat in-game in my posts below:
Village boss test post (link with video)
To give you a better idea what I'm talking about, let's look at a big sword's first strike animation:
Default takes 143 frames:
Same animation edited to 50 frames:
Since game logic tied to spine animation frame length, you basically can strike 3 times by this same weapon instead of 1. Still consumes a lot of stamina, but I think it might be worth it.
And that's an length-edited "Full 6 Attack combo", which takes 338 frames total instead of 600+:
You can see how it translates to a real combat in-game in my posts below:
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Sum Gi, your perspectives are valid.
Karasuahega is a rapier you can ascend into electric which makes it combo excellently with the lightning rod. You won't see much difference between the rapier-type weapons overall effectiveness, bar the one you can craft from the spider boss that's more like an odd shotgun. Really, this weapon class is very blessed overall.
Enemies moving around is a factor to plan for. This game has odd difficulty in that respect, because Six-Arms from the town entrance is vastly more mobile than a lot of enemies later on, up until you get the Black Wings crow demon. Then there's the white-robed Senior Inquisitor. So my take on movement is it would be way more relevant if relevantly fast enemies were more frequent and essential to deal with.
Regenerating magic without potions is easy even without mods so long as you have a weapon that recovers magic on perfect block and the enemy attacks frequently enough. In this respect a modded run with more aggressive enemies makes this much easier to maintain than base game because every incoming attack blocked is free magic. That's also why the Succubus is a very trivial fight with this approach -- spam Sword of Praise with massive MP gains every time she does a projectile swarm or her triple-melee blitz.
Yeah, a decent weapon build should do at least 2.5k damage per 10 seconds. Rapiers, katanas, that weird bendy axe from the dungeon and such do that stuff well. It's really what to expect, although a gimmick build around the staff and Sword of Praise where your intelligence is as high as you make it has insane near 5k DPS in 10 seconds. It's funny but not practical. But my tests on this gimmick build showed it was way better than expected. But yeah, if you have freely available dodge then normal melee with fast weapons trumps much anything else.
Your take on weapons is valid, I use rapiers like that too and the dual sword is really unproductive though its gimmick on parry makes it more effective parrying than rapiers against both single and multiple enemies. It's just a weird behavior I found that's nifty. As for multiple hits, good that you caught the katana has a propensity to do that because I mostly neglected it for being rather boring. The fat guarding sword you get from a statue in town has a very high chance of double-hits, and the Zweihander does it so often that may as well be an intended feature. Another gimmick I noticed is the darkness staff that's mostly bad is unusually good in the Ranch, because you fight mostly normal human enemies there and if you're not close enough to hit twice per attack you'll often reflect or nullify projectiles thrown at you... which is super useful in an area uniquely made of projectile enemies and tight corridors.
Your points are all logical, I felt the exact same way on my modded playthroughs. I wish the game was bigger / had a DLC or sequel since the variety is awesome to play with but poorly utilized. It's the kind of game where you do not need any weapon besides your first yet there's so much to see and learn across a wide kit of options.
{{{ Krongorka's post is too long to quote , but see above. }}}
Krongorka, this is awesome! That really is how the weapons should have worked originally.
Relevant to a lot of what I said to Sum Gi and related to Krongorka's post as well, heavy weapons working well and as intended is always welcome. I remember playing Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (the Castlevania-esque game that gamers rightfully speculated may havestolen appropriated the heroine's design from Night of Revenge into their heroine's design), and weapons in that game have a cheap gimmick where landing from a jump cancels all endlag... so the meta is big heavy weapons and jumping a lot. Feels jank and small weapons don't benefit from the exploit at all so most things that aren't greatswords or whips suck.
Karasuahega is a rapier you can ascend into electric which makes it combo excellently with the lightning rod. You won't see much difference between the rapier-type weapons overall effectiveness, bar the one you can craft from the spider boss that's more like an odd shotgun. Really, this weapon class is very blessed overall.
Enemies moving around is a factor to plan for. This game has odd difficulty in that respect, because Six-Arms from the town entrance is vastly more mobile than a lot of enemies later on, up until you get the Black Wings crow demon. Then there's the white-robed Senior Inquisitor. So my take on movement is it would be way more relevant if relevantly fast enemies were more frequent and essential to deal with.
Regenerating magic without potions is easy even without mods so long as you have a weapon that recovers magic on perfect block and the enemy attacks frequently enough. In this respect a modded run with more aggressive enemies makes this much easier to maintain than base game because every incoming attack blocked is free magic. That's also why the Succubus is a very trivial fight with this approach -- spam Sword of Praise with massive MP gains every time she does a projectile swarm or her triple-melee blitz.
Yeah, a decent weapon build should do at least 2.5k damage per 10 seconds. Rapiers, katanas, that weird bendy axe from the dungeon and such do that stuff well. It's really what to expect, although a gimmick build around the staff and Sword of Praise where your intelligence is as high as you make it has insane near 5k DPS in 10 seconds. It's funny but not practical. But my tests on this gimmick build showed it was way better than expected. But yeah, if you have freely available dodge then normal melee with fast weapons trumps much anything else.
Your take on weapons is valid, I use rapiers like that too and the dual sword is really unproductive though its gimmick on parry makes it more effective parrying than rapiers against both single and multiple enemies. It's just a weird behavior I found that's nifty. As for multiple hits, good that you caught the katana has a propensity to do that because I mostly neglected it for being rather boring. The fat guarding sword you get from a statue in town has a very high chance of double-hits, and the Zweihander does it so often that may as well be an intended feature. Another gimmick I noticed is the darkness staff that's mostly bad is unusually good in the Ranch, because you fight mostly normal human enemies there and if you're not close enough to hit twice per attack you'll often reflect or nullify projectiles thrown at you... which is super useful in an area uniquely made of projectile enemies and tight corridors.
Your points are all logical, I felt the exact same way on my modded playthroughs. I wish the game was bigger / had a DLC or sequel since the variety is awesome to play with but poorly utilized. It's the kind of game where you do not need any weapon besides your first yet there's so much to see and learn across a wide kit of options.
{{{ Krongorka's post is too long to quote , but see above. }}}
Krongorka, this is awesome! That really is how the weapons should have worked originally.
Relevant to a lot of what I said to Sum Gi and related to Krongorka's post as well, heavy weapons working well and as intended is always welcome. I remember playing Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (the Castlevania-esque game that gamers rightfully speculated may have
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Krongorka
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I'll also add that main moveset is just one file, which is in sharedassets89.assets (self correction: nope, multiple instances for earlier character/weapon iterations, 16 of them), so I'll give most animations same treatment. Basically, what I found is most animations have a lot of big gaps/empty frames. Which could've been fine, if player was able to interrupt them at will (edit: seems like it's possible to make it work that way, see posts below). There are some games I can tell does this, my favourite one in this regard is NieR Automata.
NoR doesn't do this, so my solution is to kinda "shrink" these gaps so animations could end up 2 or 3x times faster. Spell cast animations and deflect/stabs are main offenders. Of course, it will have a huge impact on player's mobility and fighting speed, but it also means all enemies should be given same treatment as well. I believe that some late added enemies were actually designed with that in mind. But old ones are basically a canon fodder, especially with this adjustment.
PS: Actually, don't consider video I posted above as a test (GIFs are fine, that's in-editor render). Turns out, I was editing wrong in-game skeleton whole time. Actual one will plays out a lot faster. Game archive here is surely a mess, 16 skeletons and non-numbered texture atlas'es.
It also proves to me, that this mod can be customized by... selecting different skins. Because he made a skeleton file for each of 3 skins, so it means one skin can have "shortened frames" and other one have standard frame length. Which is... kinda cool, I guess.
NoR doesn't do this, so my solution is to kinda "shrink" these gaps so animations could end up 2 or 3x times faster. Spell cast animations and deflect/stabs are main offenders. Of course, it will have a huge impact on player's mobility and fighting speed, but it also means all enemies should be given same treatment as well. I believe that some late added enemies were actually designed with that in mind. But old ones are basically a canon fodder, especially with this adjustment.
PS: Actually, don't consider video I posted above as a test (GIFs are fine, that's in-editor render). Turns out, I was editing wrong in-game skeleton whole time. Actual one will plays out a lot faster. Game archive here is surely a mess, 16 skeletons and non-numbered texture atlas'es.
It also proves to me, that this mod can be customized by... selecting different skins. Because he made a skeleton file for each of 3 skins, so it means one skin can have "shortened frames" and other one have standard frame length. Which is... kinda cool, I guess.
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To be fair to Bloodstained, this game's protag is more a rip off of Shanoa in the first place haha. I ended up just using the swords that swing as fast as you mash the button when I played, plus that overpowered floating head thing before it was nerfed haha.
You can actually reach 2.5k damage in 5 secs pretty easily on a pure dex build with the rapier thanks to the lack of softcaps. Katana is more or less depending on rng. I'm definitely gonna try a magic only challenge run now. Maybe even with the melee spells banned...
I would absolutely love to see a version of this game where both the player and the enemies are sped up, or even a version where combat is even slower and more deliberate, though that's probably more effort than it's worth and would require extra balance changes...
Anyway you're a god. I think that either speeding up heavy weapons or just massively increasing their damage/stagger could work.
The blessings of spaghetti code haha
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Krongorka
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Yeah, now I'm pretty sure this mod will require a lot of rebalancing for enemies. They just don't stand a chance:
Similar two-handed sword: Swift Zweihander I
I'd say this might give you an edge on enemies in NoREroMod with hard settings.
View attachment SuccubusOwnedCRF30.mp4
View attachment SwiftZweihanderCRF20.mp4
Similar two-handed sword: Swift Zweihander I
I'd say this might give you an edge on enemies in NoREroMod with hard settings.
View attachment SuccubusOwnedCRF30.mp4
View attachment SwiftZweihanderCRF20.mp4
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Nephilim50
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Krongorka
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Actually, thinking about it... since one handed weapons are already fast enough and Two-handed was never an option really, maybe it's best to keep one-handed weapons at default speeds?
And yeah, air strike combos with speed up'ed two-handed weapons are too powerful with spamming, I guess
Now, enemies definitely need a considerable HP bump, along with reaction times improved. Stun animations can be reduced both sides, for player as well.
Some code for enemies is in Assembly-Csharp.dll and I'm afraid editing enemies stats might affect NoREroMod.
So yeah, for now main issue is slow enemies. They have to attack faster and be in stun less time.
PS: And apparently, there is a possibility to add attack interruption, with usage of Event: ACTcan, and moving it to the very first frame of animation.
View attachment AttackInterruptionCRF10.mp4
And yeah, air strike combos with speed up'ed two-handed weapons are too powerful with spamming, I guess
Now, enemies definitely need a considerable HP bump, along with reaction times improved. Stun animations can be reduced both sides, for player as well.
Some code for enemies is in Assembly-Csharp.dll and I'm afraid editing enemies stats might affect NoREroMod.
So yeah, for now main issue is slow enemies. They have to attack faster and be in stun less time.
PS: And apparently, there is a possibility to add attack interruption, with usage of Event: ACTcan, and moving it to the very first frame of animation.
View attachment AttackInterruptionCRF10.mp4
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does anyone know how to deal with this guy and rescue the girl? I can't seem to free them without killing them.
Krongorka
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I just ignored that enemy. Though I think they make a clank sound when you hit them so you could interpret that as cutting off their chains.
Help I give it to examine here and it automatically stays the game without moving or advancing or anything
Bulbanych
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Leonadis77
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