VN Ren'Py Nothing Is Forever [v0.7.3] [MrSilverLust]

[DaFlurbIsHere]

5. it gives the player a peace of mind from knowing he won’t see any content he doesn’t like.

Didn't warn me about the toenail painting though. I'm traumatized for life.

Yes, no matter how hard a game designer tries to make sure everyone will be happy with their efforts, there will always be at least one player with unexpected, totally unforeseeable and batshit crazy reactions that will make them want to beat someone's head against the wall - whether their own or the player in question's.

 

[NateGrey]

Well, damn! The new chapter certainly didn't disappoint! Some awesome new scenes all round, but if I had to choose one my favorite would once again be the humiliation scene with Emma (this time eating her ass while caged). Looking forward to the next chapter already, even though I'll certainly be replaying this too...

No bugs or typos jumped out at me, I only noticed one very small inconsistency: when taking pictures with Lea, the MC says he's "rock hard" even if he's caged... It could of course be he's just putting up a front because he doesn't want to let her know he's caged, but then he didn't have any problem telling her about the no-cum challenge in an earlier chapter.

Also, I like the idea of putting himself at the mercy of Kim after quitting his job, but it would be even more fun if there had been the option to be a completely spineless bad friend and not even demand she has to break up with Pete to hear it .

 

[McBomb]

Yeah, I thought the new chapter was pretty great. Lea is my main route and I'm very happy with where that's going if you pick the relationship path.

Still sad about the lack of Bri and Olivia content though. I know he addressed it in the last Q&A but eventually we've gotta get some substance with them. They can't move up the "rankings" if they never get screen time.

I did enjoy the sub-plot with Emma and Kim even not on their routes though.

 

[fatpussy123]

This new chapter sounds great, someone should post it.

 

[osanaiko]

It seems like skip isn't saved between updates, so I have to go through some of the text again, but that seems to be only one time.

"Skip" not working as expected might be because we went back and did a bunch of edits on parts of chapter 4. So there would be "new" text lines in sections you had already been through.

 

[caravaggio]

I decided to buy it from itch.io, what a nice solution to support a game instead of patreon model. Nice update, I was really looking forward towards Emma, but she's crazier than ever this time it's hard to keep up with her in a dom path..

 

[SteveНandjobs]

It's a pity I can't buy the game too, where is our hero what to share.

 

[MrSilverLust]

the MC says he's "rock hard"

That was an oversight, thanks for the report.

Still sad about the lack of Bri and Olivia content though.

Yeah, I’ve come to realize that 7 LIs are too many to give them all proper screen time in a single chapter, and Bri and Olivia got the short end of the stick so far. I guess they could be seen a bit more like side girls at the moment. Next chapter will have a bigger focus on them, though.

I got the $15 option off itch.io so I assume I get full access going forward. I'll keep the e-mail so no issues there I'm sure.

That’s correct. One payment and you’ll get all future updates until the game is finished. The only downside is that patrons still get the new update a couple days before the itch release. This is mostly to help find all the bugs I’ve missed, so that I don’t start selling something.

I still think Chapter 4 was a bit of a lull

So far, while the comments about chapter 5 have been quite positive, it seems like the majority still thinks chapter 4 is their favorite. I’d rather prefer that players think that the latest chapter is the best one, so I like your opinion more

Nice update, I was really looking forward towards Emma, but she's crazier than ever this time it's hard to keep up with her in a dom path..

They say to not stick your dick in crazy, but… it’s Emma. You can keep up with her.

 

[DaFlurbIsHere]

I wonder if you could disapprove of the MC's drug use and still enjoy the game (it sounds like you ARE enjoying it for the most part). Surely you don't have to like everything about a MC to enjoy stepping into his shoes for a while. For example, I'm sure many people play the game even though they disapprove of his past affair with Mel. I doubt that recreational drug use will play a huge part in the plot going forward; who knows, perhaps at some point you'll even be able to have the MC refuse to use even when offered.

With avn's, it very much depends. If the MC is a relatively blank slate, then there is a strong sense of transference at work and I (and I'm sure many, many other players) experience the MC as a sort of surrogate entity. Which means that personal likes, dislikes, moral boundaries, etc. are 'injected' into the experiencing of the MC. If the MC is a very strongly defined character, it's easier to see him/her as a totally separate entity, like the main character of a movie or book, and it's much easier to go along with whatever the MC gets up to. For instance, if the lead character is female, in a crazy game like Project Myriam, I don't mind letting her get up to all sorts of stuff I personally am completely not okay with. Or the vengeance-obsessed jerk MC from Waifu Academy who is so weird and bizarre that whatever he is allowed to get up to is fine.

Here, the MC feels like an intricate balancing act: on the one hand he's an individual with a clearly defined past, a job that's an important part of his life & who he is, and specific reactions to the LIs. We also see him a lot which generally helps in creating a separate identity for the character. On the other hand, he is vanilla enough in looks and personal style, that it is easy to identify with him. AND it's an RPG which allows the player to choose interactions, decide which skills to build and which to ignore, which shapes the MC to what the player wants him to be or how the player sees him. So that too strengthens the identification.

So when MC then 'suddenly' does things that clash with how I, the player, have conceived of him, that feels very... unpleasant. That's why I still feel he should have been able to say no in that instance. So you miss out on the hallucination - just make it a nightmare. Or have MC fall victim to edibles, without realizing it (Olivia thought it would be a laugh to get everyone high on marihuana-laced brownies, for instance), if the hallucination is mandatory. I'm not saying remove the joint, I'm saying: give the player the option. Same thing with Emma: after getting rid of her end of chapter one (THANK YOU LORD & DEVELOPER), MC decides to contact her again later and invites her to the seaside house. I'm sitting there looking on in horror: NO! I (player) truly hate Emma (from her introduction and it only got worse) because I detest people like that IRL and actively avoid them. So give the player the option. If a player wants her back in the game, allow the make up option. If they are happy with her being a bad and distant memory (and not making a single positive choice regarding her is a pretty good clue), please allow me as a player to keep her out of the game.

It's just a matter of having the choice. I really don't like being forced down certain paths in avns (with exceptions: I didn't mind MC being mandatorily madly in love with Lydia in Fetish Locator, though many other players found that unacceptable). In general, Nothing Is Forever is very good in giving you these options. When it suddenly doesn't and these coincide with actions/characters I do not enjoy, that has a huge impact.

 

[MrSilverLust]

So give the player the option. If a player wants her back in the game, allow the make up option. If they are happy with her being a bad and distant memory (and not making a single positive choice regarding her is a pretty good clue), please allow me as a player to keep her out of the game.

I understand the sentiment, you aren’t even the first one to ask for such option. And in a perfect world I’d be happy to do that.

But it’s basically impossible. Just to give you an example:

In chapter 4 the whole gang goes on holydays together. It’s a huge chapter with lots of scenes with everyone together, or several combinations of people in it. Now I have to write one story with Emma in it, and another without Emma…

But why stop there? Why just give the option to remove the LI you don’t like? Emma is actually the more popular one, there would be more interest in leaving other LIs out of the game, not her. There are people that would rather not have invited Jen, even as a friend, for ethical reasons. And there are people that would want Kim burned to the ground after some events on chapter 3…

So now I have to make all of these versions of chapter 4:

Version with Emma, Kim, Jen – The one I did: it took 4 months of work.
Version with Emma, Kim, Jen
Version with Emma, Kim, Jen
Version with Emma, Kim, Jen
Version with Emma, Kim, Jen
Version with Emma, Kim, Jen
Version with Emma, Kim, Jen
Version with Emma, Kim, Jen

How long do you think it’d take me to finish that chapter? And all the other ones that follow, that will also have to accommodate all of those combinations?

How long until other players, like you, start to demand to take the LIs they don’t like out of their game? Like Lea, Olivia, Bri or Deb? How many combinations of scenes and stories do I have to make now? Do you still want an update every 3-4 months?

Another alternative would be to just write every scene in complete isolation, and nothing that you do in one scene affects the rest of the game/story. That way, if you don’t like Emma, just cut all her scenes out and it doesn’t have any impact in the rest of the game. Same for the other LI’s. Everything completely independent of everything else. But would that make a good story? Just a sequence of independent scenes?

So you miss out on the hallucination - just make it a nightmare. Or have MC fall victim to edibles, without realizing it (Olivia thought it would be a laugh to get everyone high on marihuana-laced brownies, for instance), if the hallucination is mandatory. I'm not saying remove the joint, I'm saying: give the player the option.

In my opinion, those are bad alternatives that don’t fit the characters or the mood of the scene. I’d rather lose interest from anyone so averse to a single scene with marijuana, than to compromise that scene.

People that complain for lack of options in a given scene seem to forget that the writer isn’t asked to give more options only for those particular scenes; The writer gets asked to provide alternatives for every single scene, that any player deems unnecessary, boring, or where the MC simply behaves in a different way than what they would want to. Why is your wish more important than all the other ones? Where do I draw the line?

In the end, it’s very simple. Players either like the story as is, and enjoy the game; or they don’t like the story and play something else. And that's true for all AVNs.

 

[EndlessNights]

Same thing with Emma: after getting rid of her end of chapter one (THANK YOU LORD & DEVELOPER), MC decides to contact her again later and invites her to the seaside house. I'm sitting there looking on in horror: NO! I (player) truly hate Emma (from her introduction and it only got worse) because I detest people like that IRL and actively avoid them. So give the player the option. If a player wants her back in the game, allow the make up option. If they are happy with her being a bad and distant memory (and not making a single positive choice regarding her is a pretty good clue), please allow me as a player to keep her out of the game.

First off, I'm glad to see you decided to keep playing the game!

I can relate much more to your Emma criticism because I thought essentially the same as you during my first playthrough. Perhaps I didn't quite hate her much as you do, but she's exactly the kind of person I thought a depressed person like our MC should stay away from for the sake of his mental health. When I actually played her route, though, I found it tumultuous, exciting, and memorable...there is a reason she's one of the most popular characters in the game. She's not someone I would date and indeed still not someone whom I would actually consider to be a good option for the MC, but if you want to live a little dangerously loving Emma is one of the wildest rides in the game. And honestly there IS a decent person in there if you look hard enough and can forgive her outbursts of anger and her impulsiveness. She isn't Kim.

I think out of my nine or so playthroughs my MC has only romanced Emma on two of them. When I'm not trying to pursue her, I have to admit that she does definitely show up in the game more often than I'd like, but there's a reason for that. In my mind, she is the one the MC would pick if left to his own devices. Their shared past and his attraction to her is just too powerful...he can't resist her. So the way I think of it on my non-Emma playthroughs I'm actually saving the MC from making a terrible choice he definitely would have made if not for my interference as a player. With that understanding in mind, it's hardly surprising the MC continues to reach out to Emma and tries to enmesh her life with his. The heart wants what it wants, but at least I can keep the MC out of a toxic relationship by keeping him out of her bed. There Mr. SilverLust gives us absolute control.

So, yeah, the MC does usually end up liking Emma a lot more than me. I think that's OK if I can still keep them apart. There could be more choices to avoid her, but I'm not sure I'd actually like the game more if that were the case. For example, I always enjoy meeting Paige even if I don't really want to go out for coffee with Emma. Would I really want that scene not to be in the game because I'm still angry with Emma? Not really. And the MC's most (to me) head-scratching decision regarding Emma actually becomes less significant due to recent events in the plot. You didn't mention this decision so I think you might not have gotten to that point in the game yet so I won't get into it here.

 

[DaFlurbIsHere]

With all due respect, I have never in my life seen a VN or even video game with the level of choice you are describing here, of every single character and event being completely avoidable and optional. Even the most sandbox of games still has events, although they do have almost no structure at all for some of them. But they also have no story in that case.

I understand where you're coming from, but it's just unrealistic to expect that amount of total control.

As I said, the control in this game is already impressively extensive - I ended chapter four choosing 'you'll never be able to fall in love again' and I was perfectly happy with that option. The few instances when you are denied choices or forced into decisions then stand out all the more because of the previous freedom. (other case in point, when you end up with Jen at her hotel, the way the event develops depends on your choices). All I'm saying here is: I wish there had been a 'text Emma to see how she's doing'/ 'Nah, not worth it' choice. She still could have been invited on the trip by someone else - all the same scenes are available, it's just not MC (and player's) choice that force the two together again (I wouldn't have liked seeing her again but it wouldn't have been through MC's decisions, which would have aligned with my choices as a player).

 

[Dude505]

I don't mind waiting for my pirated games, it's not knowing how long I have to wait that gets to me.

As I wait and linger, I scream out and plead,
For a hero who can help satisfy my greed.
The update to Nothing is Forever, is what I need !

 

[caravaggio]

They say to not stick your dick in crazy, but… it’s Emma. You can keep up with her.

Well, I wouldn't describe the situation with that saying.. until now I saw her as an argumentative, strong willed woman, she's written in a way that feels very realistic and I really like her, she has troubles dealing with her emotions and other flaws that contributed to create a very well-rounded character (to be fair almost all of the characters are well-rounded, which is so rare). I was only a little pissed off during the lapdance scene but I could still understand her reaction, in this this update though, it looks like she forgot to take medications or something. And, while I thought that given the info I gathered during the previous chapter she was one of those people very diligent at their job, made me question how could she criticize the MC for his work ethic, so to say.

Also, damn cliffhanger, it's gonna be tough to wait to see how that goes..

Spoiler: Question

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[MrSilverLust]

All I'm saying here is: I wish there had been a 'text Emma to see how she's doing'/ 'Nah, not worth it' choice. She still could have been invited on the trip by someone else - all the same scenes are available, it's just not MC (and player's) choice that force the two together again (I wouldn't have liked seeing her again but it wouldn't have been through MC's decisions, which would have aligned with my choices as a player).

Yeah, this is already quite different than:

please allow me as a player to keep her out of the game.

And that would be doable. But we still have to look at the story and change every single thing that this decision affects. For example:

The whole arc of chapter 2 is about MC dealing with his anger against Emma, Jamie and Pete. Only after he “gets out of his shell” and spends more time with “new” friends (Lea, Deb, Carl, even Bri and Olivia in a couple scenes), he understands there’s no point in holding grudges and reaches out to Jamie and Pete first, and then to Emma.

But now, we need to change all of this:

• why would he forgive Jamie/Pete but not Emma? (fun fact: forgiving Jamie/Pete also angered other players, so I guess that should also be an option)
• What would be the ending of chapter 2 (just the mc looking at the wall without messaging Emma is boring...)
• What would be the end of chapter 3 if MC and Emma don’t reunite?
• Why would Jamie invite Emma to holidays if he knew the MC wasn’t talking to her? Especially after that’s exactly the type of action that caused problems in the 1st chapter?
• Why would Emma agree to go with them when the MC is basically the only person she’s friends with there?
• (Why would the mc go himself if he was still angry with Jamie, Pete and Emma, in case we provide those options?)

But let’s say we find a neat solution to all of those points. And forget about all the work it’d take. Is it really that much of an improvement?
We went from a situation where the MC sends a text to be friends again with Jamie/Pete/Emma without the player’s input, to one situation where the player is asked, do you want to forgive Emma: Yes/ No fuck her, thank you; and then, no matter the answer, she shows up again and it’s like, I’m still here, bitch, and they become best buddies neverthless.

Which one is worse: not providing an option to the player, or giving an option and completely ignore it?

(I wouldn't have liked seeing her again but it wouldn't have been through MC's decisions, which would have aligned with my choices as a player)

I think you’re claiming the 2nd way is better, but I tend to disagree. I think it feels worse to not have the player’s choice respected, but I concede that this is debatable. (Although, I don’t get it why that would be better aligned with your choices as a player… or are you saying that from now on, in every single time she’s on screen, I need to write a version of the scene where they are friends, and a version where they aren’t? For every single scene until the end of the game… yeah.)


Anyway, this is nothing against you, I just like to discuss game design and what goes behind some design decisions. I know and understand that the lack of choice regarding getting friends with Emma again can be problematic, but after doing this kind of thinking (and cost-benefit analysis), I still think the way I did it is the least bad.

I don't mind waiting for my pirated games, it's not knowing how long I have to wait that gets to me.

There’s only three things certain in life: tax, death, and that your smut game will end up pirated. Last time it took around a week, if I remember correctly.

Spoiler: Question

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In the gallery screen you can now filter by "manly", "neutral" or "sensitive" scenes, and you can also toggle an option to have all the scenes unlocked, or only the ones you’ve seen. That way you can quickly tell if you missed any scene in the paths you like with your favorite LI(s).

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[DeedleConcord]

Absolutely fantastic update. Lea's scenes were my favorites so far. Deb and Emma made cheating on Lea fantastically tempting. I liked how we could actually do at least a small thing to help Deb (and hopefully send a subtle message), rather than just fucking her or paying lip service to caring but not actually doing anything. I liked the Monika subplot and the way you used it to drive Emma and Kim's storylines forward. And to top it off, another chess game. This adult game really is a cut above all but a select few in both writing and mechanics.

 

[Anonymous100]

I opened a game request thread for the new update. Leave a "+1" here if you are waiting for the new update too:
https://f95zone.to/threads/nothing-is-forever-v0-5-1-mrsilverlust.135996/

 

[Mikey_Boy101]

I opened a game request thread for the new update. Leave a "+1" here if you are waiting for the new update too:
https://f95zone.to/threads/nothing-is-forever-v0-5-1-mrsilverlust.135996/

Just wait until the Dev makes the new update public

 

[SteveНandjobs]

Just wait until the Dev makes the new update public

This won't happen, Dev doesn't open new updates to the public anymore, it remains to wait for the new version to be leaked, this game certainly has a good distribution system, 20 euros on potreon or 15 dollars on itch, I would already buy the game myself if I could, but payment is simply not accepted from my country, so it remains to wait for the pirated version.

 

[Anonymous100]

Just wait until the Dev makes the new update public

The dev won't make the update public and has already offered a reasonable explanation for it. So, maybe, get to know about stuff before suggesting a solution to it. Second, thanks for your post in the other side even if its a "-1" cause that helps the thread stay active and get noticed by the staff team.

This won't happen, Dev doesn't open new updates to the public anymore, it remains to wait for the new version to be leaked, this game certainly has a good distribution system, 20 euros on potreon or 15 dollars on itch, I would already buy the game myself if I could, but payment is simply not accepted from my country, so it remains to wait for the pirated version.

Kind of a similar situation here and lets not forget currency conversion rates can be harsh for third world countries. Anyway, good luck to the dev. This is a quality game. I hope the itch algorithm is much kinder to this game with the new update policy. The game deserves to be a massive hit.