VN Ren'Py Nothing Is Forever [v0.7.3] [MrSilverLust]

[selberdreher]

If you show the latest Jen scene as an example to 10 couples, 9,7 would say it is normal sex.

I think your statement is distorted by your preference (and perhaps also the preference of your sexual partner).

There are a lot of women who aren't even into dirty talk, let alone being verbally degraded, and those women are not frigid or sex-negative. And even if some men enjoy this in their porn, this doesn't mean they would try to or need to integrate it into their sex-life with their lifelong partner and/or mother of their children. Don't extrapolate from yourself and porn to others.

Edit: There is a reason why pulp romance novels are a successfull genre for decades. Alot of women apparently like it raunchy, but not humiliating.
Edit2: I have never read 'Fifty shades of grey', but i would suspect it was mainly about psychological domination (like following orders), quite tame painplay and the use of toys and kinky clothing, with very few to none actual degrading and humiliating scenes. Readers of this trilogy correct me, if i am wrong.

 

[selberdreher]

Again this narrative. I don't get where this comes from. It is untrue.

1184 games with female domination tags versus 1222 games with male domination available on F95ZONE, that's not way more, but there are more male domination tagged games than the other way round.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

We can only speculate. I still think it's just that there are no places for the game to be recommended.

Femdom players have this thread where the game has been suggested and praised a few times. Story-first players have this thread where the same happens. Many of my patrons learned about the game on those threads, especially the femdom enthusiasts.

Now tell me where do maledom players gather to share their favourite games... because I just don't know.

The closest thing there is is this thread, but that's not about BDSM at all. It's about the male power trip fantasy of having an harem without any competition from other men. As you can imagine, my game, which is not a harem and has girls in relationships, is not very well seen there...

In fact, the game is being recommended to maledom fans and being well received. It's just that few people are interested in commenting in those threads and give or look for more recommendations.

Also, it's not like there aren't people praising Jen's scenes (recommended as best overall scene of the year). Or that the game is being poorly received, just look at the reviews. By talking about "hard truths" and patreon numbers you make it seem like the game is being poorly received when it's one of the most growing projects that started in the 2nd half of 2021 by an unknown dev. We're doing quite well.



I think this is just bias. The femdom paths have a cunnilingus, a footjob, and a legjob or spanking scene... they aren't necessary the epitome of hardcore scenes. In fact, the same thing you have said about the maledom content has been said about the femdom content as well.

It's never possible to please everyone and each player will want different kinks, pace, realism, etc.



So... do you really think that verbally humiliating a girl during sex is normal for 9,7 out of 10 couples? Or that it is realistic that a guy that has never done a maledom BDSM in his life gives a girl a collar and does a petplay scene the 2nd time he tries BDSM in his life? Or that Lea's scenes are more maledom than Jen's or Emma's?

We might just have quite a different perspective on this. I disagree on all of those points.



The feedback has been noted. I'm happy with the content so far and won't go back to change anything. Besides not thinking that's necessary at all, reworks/rewritings are a sure way to kill a project. The only way is forward. I'd suggest for you to come back after a couple of updates and see if the game is then kinky enough for you or if it's better to spend your time elsewhere.

1184 games with female domination tags versus 1222 games with male domination available on F95ZONE, that's not way more, but there are more male domination tagged games than the other way round.

I think your statement is distorted by your preference (and perhaps also the preference of your sexual partner).

There are a lot of women who aren't even into dirty talk, let alone being verbally degraded, and those women are not frigid or sex-negative. And even if some men enjoy this in their porn, this doesn't mean they would try to integrate it into their sex-life with their lifelong partner and/or mother of their children. Don't extrapolate from yourself and porn to others.

Okay I apologize.

 

[MrSilverLust]

Okay I apologize.

I don't think you did anything wrong to apologise for, we're just discussing/brainstorming stuff. You can agree or not with the new observations pointed out, but there's absolutely no need to apologise for anything.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

I don't think you did anything wrong to apologise for, we're just discussing/brainstorming stuff. You can agree or not with the new observations posted out to you, but there's absolutely no need to apologise for anything.

I mean, your points are valid, of course.
And honestly have nothing to add.

1184 games with female domination tags versus 1222 games with male domination available on F95ZONE, that's not way more, but there are more male domination tagged games than the other way round.

That's 49,2% : 50,8%. Come on. That's pretty even. Especially by this amount of games.

I think your statement is distorted by your preference (and perhaps also the preference of your sexual partner).

There are a lot of women who aren't even into dirty talk, let alone being verbally degraded, and those women are not frigid or sex-negative. And even if some men enjoy this in their porn, this doesn't mean they would try to or need to integrate it into their sex-life with their lifelong partner and/or mother of their children. Don't extrapolate from yourself and porn to others.

Edit: There is a reason why pulp romance novels are a successfull genre for decades. Alot of women apparently like it raunchy, but not humiliating.
Edit2: I have never read 'Fifty shades of grey', but i would suspect it was mainly about psychological domination (like following orders), quite tame painplay and the use of toys and kinky clothing, with very few to none actual degrading and humiliating scenes. Readers of this trilogy correct me, if i am wrong.

I agree with that, and I have exaggerated.
Again my bias. In the context of their relationship. I found it harmless, even to normal dirty talk. But I see now that other people see it differently.
I have to say I am on the praise route at the end. I am more of caring Dom in real life.

 

[selberdreher]

That's 49,2% : 50,8%. Come on. That's pretty even. Especially by this amount of games.

Yup, that's pretty even. Not way more like Frosty2000 said, but also not completely untrue as your answer to them suggested.

 

[selberdreher]

I have to say I am on the praise route at the end. I am more of caring Dom in real life.

I also tried the praise route first, and Jen is MyMCs main LI at the moment. I do appreciate humiliation in porn, but generally speaking with characters i don't like or care for. I hope i am into a treat with Kim and her BF for that.

Also another question, playthrough related, it seems that Deb, the dominant one, was greyed out in the last scene and MyMC hadn't any sexscene with her in the last update. Is MyMC blocked out her path completely? Although he bulled her in front of her BF?
Or is he just blocked out of her female domination content, but there will be more cucking down the line?

 

[Mister_M]

Yup, that's pretty even. Not way more like Frosty2000 said, but also not completely untrue as your answer to them suggested.

While it's true looking at the tag, unfortunately quite a lot of these games is tagged femdom even when there's no actual femdom route in them (like Summer's Gone is tagged femdom, but there's only few lines of dialogue in the game about femdom [not even a femdom scene of any kind], and a lot of games have just a few [or even just 1] femdom or lezdom scenes between NPCs, plus the same tag is also used for lezdom games [and I believe futadom too]), which is why femdom finder thread was created (and it isn't the 1st thread of this kind here), cause a lot of femdom loving players was very dissatisfied with how the tag is used on F95. Just to be clear though: I'm not writing this to say that the difference in amount of femdom vs. maledom games is extremely huge, but I think it's a tad higher than 49,2% : 50,8%.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

I also tried the praise route first, and Jen is MyMCs main LI at the moment. I do appreciate humiliation in porn, but generally speaking with characters i don't like or care for. I hope i am into a treat with Kim and her BF for that.

Also another question, playthrough related, it seems that Deb, the dominant one, was greyed out in the last scene and MyMC hadn't any sexscene with her in the last update. Is MyMC blocked out her path completely? Although he bulled her in front of her BF?
Or is he just blocked out of her female domination content, but there will be more cucking down the line?

Yes, I noted that with deb too. For me, Kim and deb are greyed out. Kim I understand. Deb, I thought something is planned that we are going to be a dominating couple with her together.
Edit: If I remember that correctly.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

While it's true looking at the tag, unfortunately quite a lot of these games is tagged femdom even when there's no actual femdom route in them (like Summer's Gone is tagged femdom, but there's only few lines of dialogue in the game about femdom [not even a femdom scene of any kind], and a lot of games have just a few [or even just 1] femdom or lezdom scenes between NPCs, plus the same tag is also used for lezdom games [and I believe futadom too]), which is why femdom finder thread was created (and it isn't the 1st thread of this kind here), cause a lot of femdom loving players was very dissatisfied with how the tag is used on F95. Just to clear though: I'm not writing this to say that the difference in amount of femdom vs. maledom games is extremely huge, but I think it's a tad higher than 49,2% : 50,8%.

Believe me you can say the same about maledom my friend. The "other side is not better".
And a lot of cheap produced Japanese games have the Maledom tag. While theoretical correct, but let's face it they aren't really games.
From what is playable, I would say it is 50:50. Nobody of us is luckier as the other.

Edit:
But I got your point, if you don't like Sissification the Numbers go down for Femdom.
On the other side, if you don't like rape and harassment, you have the same Problem as Maledom.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

For this discussion, I think defining what maledom is would help. Femdom is when women take the initiative. This is rare to non-existent in real life, and is rare in games too.

If maledom is the converse of that, it's simply men taking initiative. That is the norm, the vanilla. All my real life relationships and interactions have been with me taking the initiative. I've never actually experienced the alternative. So for me it's just more interesting in video games, something I can't do in real life.

The vast majority of games on this site are the males taking initiative. So wouldn't that mean almost everything is maledom? Or does maledom mean rape/non-consent? Not really sure, from my perspective those would be other tags.

I really don't think anyone can ever convince me the vast majority of games aren't maledom. But maybe there is something I'm missing here. We'll need at the least a third term, vanilla, if we are making a distinction, because femdom is absolutely not the majority/default/equal in amounts. Femdom is at most maybe 20% of the content on f95 and in general, and that's probably overshooting it. So 80%+ obviously can't be femdom.

This is not the definition of Sexual Domination.
But now I see why some femdom players believe there are way more Maledom games.

Initiative says nothing. You can show as many Initiative as you want, she says, no and then?
Sometimes my sub take the initative and wants to play. In the play, I took then the role I want, but always in the borders we lay down.

A Dom or Domina playing just a role same as sub. If this role play isn't there. These tags should not be applayed.

I discussed that in another thread. A Female boss means not that she is a Domina. A male boss doesn't mean it's maledom. Because it isn't sexual and just a hierarchy.

A Domina or Dom gets sexually aroused (nobody knows why) by having power.
If in a game, somebody uses this Power to force somebody doing something sexual, it has rape and the Maledom/ Femdom tag. If it is consensual, it is nothing more than an erotic role-play. This play will be solved at the end.
Don't mix in Dominat behavior in "Real life" with playing a dominant in BDSM.

I can't stress this enough. That are completely different things.

 

[realjitter]

Well, it's certainly not just about taking the inititive... It's a sexual fetish based on consent about domination and submission, plain and simple. Rape and such have absolutely nothing to do with that unless the partner requests such a scenario.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

Well, it's certainly not just about taking the inititive... It's a sexual fetish based on consent about domination and submission, plain and simple. Rape and such have absolutely nothing to do with that unless the partner requests such a scenario.

Right, and in that case it is just another role play and not rape.

 

[JollyGeorgieM]

I have to agree with what others have been saying; domination (on either side) is not at all "taking the initiative." A forward girl flirting openly with a guy is not dominating him by any stretch of the imagination despite very clearly taking the initiative. Likewise, men are not dominating women by hitting on them, or paying on dates, or insisting on being the driver. Either side initiating sex also isn't domination.

Domination is taking control, not taking initiative.

To tie this back to the original discussion, why is the game not reaching maledom players? Perhaps a big part of that is because the MC is bad at domination. As the dev pointed out, he's new to it. It makes perfect sense he isn't good at manipulating the power dynamic properly. But to those maledom players who want that heady rush of total control, it's tough watching a noob fumble in the dark. When the MC submits, he relinquishes control of the situation and an expert takes over (ex. Deb). Thus, the femdom players don't have to worry too much about the MC learning his place - in fact, it's part of the appeal. However, when the MC has control - even with a sub like Jen who he doesn't even need to put in any work to get her craving to do anything he wants - he is no expert. Actually, due to his position as a therapist, it even goes a bit against his moral compass to control another person's heart and mind (even if they want him to). So in a way, the MC is fighting the role maledom players want to see in him. I contend this makes sense for the story and watching the MC grow is part of the fun, but I also understand that people wanting to watch maledom content might very well struggle with an MC who is bad at it (for now).

This is just my guess though. Interesting to read everyone's thoughts!

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

Domination is taking control, not taking initiative.

Domination is not taking control, but control given by the sub. It is a common mindset in the BDSM community. That the Sub is the one in control. Because one word from her or he and the Power Fantasy is over.

Domination in the context of BDSM is simply a Power Fantasy and nothing more. Both Partners are still equal.
The sub gets aroused by being submissive, and the Dom gets aroused by being in Power. A BDSM Session enables these Fetishes to work.

And not every Dom likes everything. As an Example: I don't like impact play. So I prefer partners who behave.
The Next Point is what can you do and what not. I like restriction of movement. I like to shackle someone. I dislike rope play. Why? Because I am not good at it. I don't know why, but all this complicated nodes. I am simply not good with ropes. It takes too long for my tastes.
The same for the sub as well. I knew one sub. She dreams maybe all her life to take the urin from a DOM. And at the great day. Her Body simply says no. Her Stomach turned upside down. It is her fantasy and remains her fantasy from there on.

It is just an example, you can't "control" what happens. You have to be 100% honest and trustworthy. This enables you to play.

Usually it goes for me that way. Pretty similar to the Jen and Lea scenes. In this regard, the game is pretty good.
You sit down with your Partner, she is telling me her Fantasy she wants to live through. Sometimes we talked through some adjustment. She is giving me clear Limits. And in all my Sessions we used codewords.
Very simple, yellow for play might continue, but I have to go back with the intensity. Red for total stop.
And as a Dom I prepare myself for the Play.

My Control is very limited.

Same rings true for TV shows and Hollywood movies. Male domination is the de facto norm.

For sex games, it is pretty easy to answer. You get mostly male MCs because the Majority of players are male.
Same for other Video games genres. Supply and demand.

You can see that if you want to visit a swinger club. Women get usually free entrance and males have to pay.
Because too many males for way fewer women.

For TV shows and Movies. Nowadays, it is pretty equal in Hollywood. But maybe not in the Movies you like.

I genuinely don't understand why there is denial for this.

That's easy to answer, and I don't mean that disrespectful.

You are a Fetishist who likes Female Domination. And we all wish that our dreams would become true. But that's not the world we live in. This could be shading your perspective. Maybe.

 

[Frosty2000]

Again this narrative. I don't get where this comes from. It is untrue.

When you just make a tag search here, you could be lead to believe there are many femdom games. In truth most of what is labeled femdom has very few scenes, sometimes just a footjob and is hardly femdom related at all. From the top 30 games labeled femdom here, I would say only three have an actual significant femdom arc. Nothing is Forever being one of them.

But okay could be true for maledom too. I don't play them, so from just seeing the tag I also could be lead to believe maledom games are more common than they actually are.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

From the top 30 games labeled femdom here, I would say only three have an actual significant femdom arc.

I don't understand.
Out of my head, and I am not into femdom:
Karlson Gambit
Dominant Witches updated recently
Tower of Trample
Estate Dominat okay it quasi dead but it is there
Second class with its spinoff (that's 2)
Neuvau
Measuring my cum (Dom Mom was very popular)
Treacherous desire
Domina

These are games just out of my head which are not only have significant arcs, they are Femdom centric.
And man, some of them contain really hard stuff.
I can't remember a maledom oriented game which gets in the same territory. Maybe one of these cheap japanease games I never played.
Maybe "Bible Black: La noche de Walpurgis". This was pretty hard. But under a level, I can still find it erotic.
So, from my perspective. It dose nott look that grim for you.

What you witness is the same for me. You have usually these Harem games where 30 girls are thrown at us or throw them self at us. There is, usually, one woman for each fetish. Which is pretty unsatisfying. I agree.
The Problem is. And now I came back to Nothing is forever. What dose Significant mean and as it turns out it is an individual thing.
Nothing is forever delivers good written characters. The Formula is in its core the same as in these harem games.
Not every girl is for everyone taste and that's okay and having choices makes it excellent.

The next Problem is the tags per se. They really need to be revisioned on this site. We need Lezdom as a tag.
What is the difference between rape, harassment and sleep sex. Nuances.
But it is wrong in my opinion to give a game a maledom tag just because there is a Male MC like honeryx sees it.
And it is wrong to give a game a femdom tag just because there is a Female Boss. These tags should in my opinion of course, represent sexual acts.

 

[LAKueiJin]

This is not the definition of Sexual Domination.
But now I see why some femdom players believe there are way more Maledom games.

Initiative says nothing. You can show as many Initiative as you want, she says, no and then?
Sometimes my sub take the initative and wants to play. In the play, I took then the role I want, but always in the borders we lay down.

A Dom or Domina playing just a role same as sub. If this role play isn't there. These tags should not be applayed.

I discussed that in another thread. A Female boss means not that she is a Domina. A male boss doesn't mean it's maledom. Because it isn't sexual and just a hierarchy.

A Domina or Dom gets sexually aroused (nobody knows why) by having power.
If in a game, somebody uses this Power to force somebody doing something sexual, it has rape and the Maledom/ Femdom tag. If it is consensual, it is nothing more than an erotic role-play. This play will be solved at the end.
Don't mix in Dominat behavior in "Real life" with playing a dominant in BDSM.

I can't stress this enough. That are completely different things.

I agree with this comment, but I think that as a dom you have somewhat of a skewed perspective in that you gave a very accurate and good definition of real life BDSM/sexual domination, where it is all essentially a consensual role-play and the true party that is in control is indeed the submissive, as it is after all either a service performed by the dom/domme for money or a consensual activity adults voluntarily engage in. However, both femdom and maledom in fictional media can and do include scenarios where contol is taken without consent, not given by the sub as you stated here:

Domination is not taking control, but control given by the sub.

There are countless games and erotica stories out there in dystopian societies with sexualized slavery, or in various fantasy settings where, again, slavery or (mostly in the case of maledom this latter one) harems are commonplace etc. All of these games, which do include various forms of either rape, noncon or at least dubcon, have to be included under the umbrella of "femdom" or "maledom", and they wouldn't be if we operate solely on the principled moral position that consent has to be given by both parties and control given by the sub. When it comes to fictional media, I personally consider a story/game femdom only if:

1. The mistress is calling the shots/in control (I know this is not the case when I go to a pro-domme irl, but, for us subs, regardless of sex or orientation, the appeal of being "dominated" is at least the fantasy/illusion of losing control, and obviously in fictional media that fantasy can be explored as if it were real and to greater depths than in a 2 hours BDSM session...)

2. The mistress is not put in any degrading/humiliating/submissive position by the contents of the erotic acts themselves, even if she seems to enjoy them (eg she can very well call the shots but order her "sub" to spit on her, slap her or flog her, in which case we would obviously be dealing with maledom sexual acts in a female-lead relationship, or in other words with a sexually-submissive female that is in a position of power... Plenty of Japanese "femdom" games have females that enjoy taking the initiative and giving blowjobs/drinking cum and going "SUGOI!!!" at big penises, so, as I consider blowjobs maledom-leaning vanilla sex, just like cunnilingus is femdom-leaning vanilla sex, games that only have such scenes and vanilla intercourse do not qualify as femdom)

3. The mistress derives some form of pleasure from the erotic acts she engages in (this is more to retain the submissive fantasy - I still technically agree that a game is femdom, not vanilla or maledom, if most of the erotic scenes are, for example, footjobs given to a male MC by female characters on their own initiative, even if they don't seem to enjoy it much and the entire monologue is about what the MC or his penis feels like, treating the female characters more like props facilitating his sexual fantasy. That too happens in some Japanese games, so I usually discount them as femdom because they are very male pleasure centric. Again, if I'd have to classify them on a maledom-vanilla-femdom spectrum, probably I'd still call this sort of games "male-centric soft femdom", and they obviously have an audience in Japan as they otherwise wouldn't be made in the first place, but I've barely met any submissives or dominant women that liked them...)


Anyway, I agree with your original response to honeryx and most of what you wrote here - I just think that in fictional media consent and control being given up by (not taken from) the sub is less important than the actual dynamics of the sex scenes, and a broader definition of femdom and maledom media is more useful as it can include all the slavery/harem/rape/non-con/dub-con material out there!

Obviously consent is the most important condition irl, and it's perfectly fine if anyone only likes to see their fetishes portrayed in consensual acts/relations, but it's also important to recognize that in fictional media a lot of non-consensual acts of sexual dominance are portrayed and that practice is not immoral, because fictional characters do not have our rights and are an outlet for people to sometimes explore fantasies that would be impossible or extremely unpleasant in real life. Take care and have a great day!

 

[MrSilverLust]

I have to say I am on the praise route at the end. I am more of caring Dom in real life.

That's one thing that, in-game, is not well balanced. The so-called maledom paths, at least so far, focus much more on the cunning skills (Jen, even Kim in the future) and Misogyny/hatefuck (Emma), and basically nothing of the honorable skills. Yes, the MC can be a bit domimant with Lea, and play some very mild praise scene with Jen, but that's practically vanilla.

So, if previously you were referring to the 4th chapter praise scene with Jen (and not the humiliation one), I agree that was very normal/vanilla. I need to add more maledom content that also uses Honorable skills.

Also another question, playthrough related, it seems that Deb, the dominant one, was greyed out in the last scene and MyMC hadn't any sexscene with her in the last update. Is MyMC blocked out her path completely?

Deb, I thought something is planned that we are going to be a dominating couple with her together.

There will be more content with Deb for maledom players. But the option to "fall in love with her" at that point was blocked because it doesn't make much sense for a maledom MC to do that when he had virtually no scenes with Deb.

I don't understand.
Out of my head, and I am not into femdom:
Karlson Gambit
Dominant Witches updated recently
Tower of Trample
Estate Dominat okay it quasi dead but it is there
Second class with its spinoff (that's 2)
Neuvau
Measuring my cum (Dom Mom was very popular)
Treacherous desire
Domina

I think he meant that, if you find f95zone for the first time, sort the games by rating, and filter for the femdom tag, you'd think that you found the best games with femdom content. However, if you look at that selection, Frosty is saying that only 3 out of those 30 best games are actually appealing to femdom players. So they'd end up very disappointed playing those so called best femdom games.

That shows how unreliable the tag is (extrapolating, it would mean 9/10 femdom tagged games aren't appealing to femdom players), and why there is a need to ask for recommendations for good games amongst femdom fans. Which in turn makes it more likely that games that have a good representation of femdom themes, like Nothing is Forever or any other, get more easily recommended amongst that community.

Regarding the discussion about if there are more maledom or femdom games:

and a broader definition of femdom and maledom media is more useful as it can include all the slavery/harem/rape/non-con/dub-con material out there!

If we take this broader definition, it's hard to argue that there are more male power fantasy games involving harem and rape than femdom games. But, as a player, if you're looking for a more realistic and strict definition of maledom, you might run into the same problems that femdom players have with the femdom tag.

 

[LAKueiJin]

If we take this broader definition, it's hard to argue that there are more male power fantasy games involving harem and rape than femdom games. But, as a player, if you're looking for a more realistic and strict definition of maledom, you might run into the same problems that femdom players have with the femdom tag.

Of course you can. But then again as a player who's into femdom you can also have a narrower definition, such as, for example, one that doesn't include sissification/feminization because that kink fetishizes female vulnerability and weakness and tends to force male submissives down a path of presenting as a woman, and often even one of forced-bi... (which is already gay male vanilla sex, so anything but femdom)

What I'm trying to say is that both femdom and maledom lovers will of course have particular fetishes they are not into or might have hard limits (when it comes to consent for example), but a game including non-con should not be grounds to disqualify it from being labelled as either femdom or maledom. Of course most maledom fans will have a stricter/narrower definition of what they enjoy, just like we do, but that doesn't make the maledom games they don't personally like (or the ones that cross limits they don't want to see crossed like noncon or dubcon) not maledom...

Anyway, I don't presume to know how many good or hardcore maledom games there are out there, as I never looked for them and if anything that tag means instant avoidance for me, so maybe there are serious problems with the maledom tag also being used too liberally or even on mostly vanilla games as it can happen with the femdom tag - I wouldn't know as I don't try them, so I won't speak on matters I am not familiar with!

Ellodiron also made a great point that by god we need a separate lezdom tag, and in general a revamping of the tag system on f95 would be very useful.