VN Ren'Py Nothing Is Forever [v0.7.3] [MrSilverLust]

[RoryTate]

The idea flowed from their earlier conversation, but I tend to think Emma was genuinely grateful for the MC's vital assistance and wanted to celebrate him a little in that moment.

Yes, but a longer pattern of caring from Emma needs to be established for this to be believable, and it needs to be outside of a gift just because someone was useful, or else it comes across as her manipulating him into serving her interests. If I called Emma a "very selfish" person at this point in the story, what actions towards the MC could you list to counter that perception? The only other one I can recall is that she seemed honestly concerned when he quit his job, but that was ultimately motivated by her own interests based on what followed, because when he said he'd still be around, she quickly forgot about it. It just showed that she wanted him around, which was cute in a way, but it needs a corresponding: "If you love someone, set them free" attitude for her to come across with something more than selfish, creepy, stalker vibes.

Absent any other context, the flower scene still reminds me of this quote from a famous comedian: "Only women, children, and dogs are loved unconditionally. A man is only loved under the condition he provide something." MC helped protect a helpless damsel in distress. He was rewarded with flowers. Outside of that act of usefulness, he might as well not exist in any non-utilitarian way to Emma. Well, that is, unless she doesn't just outright despise him for being a "privileged male oppressor". Either way, that's...not good.

If you don't like bdsm, you won't find a great interest in this game. It's like playing a vanilla romance game while not liking romance.

I personally love experiencing the power dynamics of bdsm, and I think that kind of play adds a whole lot to sexual encounters. In fact, I often search exclusively for "domination" and "bdsm" content here on F95, and I am willing to give most games a try for the sole reason that they have those tags, even if they seem to be of lower quality. However, while "vanilla" sexual interactions – in real life and in fiction – can often fail for a wide variety of reasons, I think interactions involving elements of bdsm are filled with huge landmines and are even more difficult to make work well. And that's where my sober second thoughts on NiF often take me, now that I've had a few days to consider the overall game. The strange thing about this story is that the author recognizes the crucial need for strong, open communication in dom/sub relationships. Concerns about safety, health (physical and mental), self-esteem, etc, are often forefront in the story. This is best represented in-game by the effort spent thinking through the ethical dilemma of becoming involved with Jen. However, there is a bit of tonal whiplash later when this all gets thrown out the window (as many interactions directed at the MC cross the line into becoming verbally, emotionally, and perhaps even physically abusive). Being given authority over someone carries with it a huge amount of responsibility, and that's what feels like might be missing in other parts of the story I think.

I enjoyed the playthrough and it held my interest like few other games could, and I am looking forward to seeing where this story leads. I'm realizing now though that I haven't taken the time to explore any of the other paths/LIs in more detail (other than the ones I selected in my first playthrough), which is not usually the case in games that I like this much. I'm not exactly sure why that is just yet. It does feel like there is something missing that is needed to "humanize" a few of the character interactions, so that the kink isn't all that exists in a sort of "ultra-clinical exclusive focus" kind of way. It isn't so bad that it is just like reading a textbook description of how a certain kink operates, without any concern for the emotions of the individual people involved, but the sex scenes can often drift a bit too far in that direction perhaps.

 

[EndlessNights]

Yes, but a longer pattern of caring from Emma needs to be established for this to be believable, and it needs to be outside of a gift just because someone was useful, or else it comes across as her manipulating him into serving her interests. If I called Emma a "very selfish" person at this point in the story, what actions towards the MC could you list to counter that perception?

Personally, I wouldn't call Emma selfish. She is in her own way very idealistic: she's very concerned with justice and morality, likes to help people in need, and wants to be a good person. She doesn't think twice about assisting Monika, and she expects the MC and even Kim to actually WANT to help out as well simply because it's the right thing to do. However, she's at times insensitive and can lack empathy if someone isn't suffering in a very obvious way or doesn't communicate that suffering clearly. I don't think she has a clue how depressed the MC is early on in the game, for instance, and she wasn't there for him at a time when he really needed support from his friends. Deb knows him much less well (and isn't a trained psychologist), but she seemed much more aware of his troubles and pain during that period.

That said, I think Emma does try to help MC in a very Emmaish way though it's partly up to the player to interpret her behavior and intent. I'm sure some people think Emma is simply jealous of Jen at the party and believe she's just worried Jen will take the MC away from her. From Emma's perspective, though, I think she sees herself as intervening so as to warn the MC against traveling down a dangerous path even if jealousy is part of the equation as well. According to Emma's world view, a psychologist getting involved with a patient would be seen as quite predatory behavior and abuse of a vulnerable person by a person with power over them. She'd naturally sympathize with Jen, not the MC, in that situation, but she still tries to get through to the MC. Is she nice about it? Nope. Is she trying to help him with tough love and what she considers to be unvarnished honesty? Yeah, I tend to think so. If she didn't care, she likely wouldn't bother or she'd go to Jen instead of the MC in order to check on the potential "victim."

I think Emma has a particularly hard time seeing the MC as vulnerable because of their shared past. She remembers the cocky young dude who always argued with her for the sake of argument and still sees that person in him (it's significant that she holds on to old photos of them together -- in her mind, the MC is probably pretty much the same guy now as he was back then). She thinks the MC can handle everything she and the world can dish out. He doesn't need to be protected like Paige and Monika. He doesn't need a champion or a defender. We know he's not really quite so strong and resilient as that, but it may take the rest of the game for Emma to truly get that realization.

 

[Turret]

Personally, I wouldn't call Emma selfish. She is in her own way very idealistic: she's very concerned with justice and morality, likes to help people in need, and wants to be a good person. She doesn't think twice about assisting Monika, and she expects the MC and even Kim to actually WANT to help out as well simply because it's the right thing to do.

The thing with Emma are not her positive traits, but the unequal way she lives them. She does not give a flying fuck if the person in need of help is male. It becomes very clear over the run of NIF that for Emma all men are irredeemable pigs, only good enough to be used and discarded when this usefulness ends. At her core Emma is a female chauvinist, which she proves again and again during the game.
The way she treats even her male friends shows that she barely considers them friends. Or how Emma treats Monika´s ex-friend who clearly came to help, but got treated like a confirmed criminal by her.
And if Jen would not have been a potential danger to losing access to the only "dick" who is willing to do "sexy times" with her, Emma would not have lifted a finger.
It is telling that e.g. Olivia, Lea or Deb, who partly know the MC less well than Emma does, have better conversations with him. Esp. Lea and the MC "click" very well together and develop a nice relationship together with and without Lea´s kink. I definitely hope for a lot more stuff with Lea (and Olivia).

 

[RoryTate]

Personally, I wouldn't call Emma selfish. She is in her own way very idealistic: she's very concerned with justice and morality, likes to help people in need, and wants to be a good person. She doesn't think twice about assisting Monika, and she expects the MC and even Kim to actually WANT to help out as well simply because it's the right thing to do.

I would ask you to think back on that story arc and answer this question for me: was it the friend who wanted to track down the blackmailer, or was it instead Emma who had a thirst for vengeance and talked her friend into it to satiate her own selfish need for justice?

I seem to recall Emma's friend saying clearly that she wanted to just drop the case and move on. And she only went to the police once Emma convinced her otherwise. You may interpret this whole series of scenes differently, but if Emma truly was thinking about someone else during this time, she might say things like: "I know you very well, Monika, and you wouldn't be happy if you didn't at least try to track this bastard down." Or even something like: "I don't like letting a person like this run free to harm others, but I'll support whatever decision you make." Those are the kind of statements an unselfish friend would make in that case. However, I don't remember Emma showing any support that didn't involve catching the blackmailer, which shows that her true motivations likely lay elsewhere.

An alternate way to consider this particular story arc is to change the outcome so that they fail to track down the blackmailer. Who do you think would be more furious at this failure: Emma or Monika? And if they failed, do you think it might be possible that Monika would have ended up feeling even worse about the whole situation when so many people had just wasted their time without accomplishing anything? Especially when she just wanted to move on with her life at the outset? If they didn't get extremely lucky and catch the bastard, I see this selfish manipulation – and that's my own interpretation of Emma's behaviour – of her friend very likely blowing up in Emma's face, because good intentions won't save her when she selfishly runs roughshod over everyone around her to get what she wants.

This is why I asked if you could point out to me any actions towards the MC that showed Emma acting unselfishly, and why I have to note that you failed to do so in your response. You gave some interpretations of actions she took to potentially help others, but you couldn't find anything that she did to help and support the MC. In contrast, let's consider a few actions by the MC towards Emma:

- MC helps Emma get a new, better job, when he notices that she is unhappy in her current workplace environment
- MC offers unasked-for praise to Emma, and even gives her a shining recommendation to her future boss, by highlighting how much he respects and admires her skills, and how he is certain she will succeed at that new job
- tries on multiple occasions to help her understand and accept her unwanted sexual desires (i.e. the way she gets excited at being treated roughly and like an object by a strong and masculine man), and does not shame her kinks in any way, and only ever talks about them as normal and healthy impulses that she should be able to choose to explore in safe ways if she wants
- helps Emma track down the blackmailer (again, I would say MC is helping Emma more than Monika here, because it is Emma who is the one steering this ship)

There are more, but that list gives you an idea of actions that prove the MC is an unselfish person. He does things for Emma without any need for a reward, or even without the expectation that she'll offer him a simple "thank you". However, I can't think of any corresponding actions by Emma that show similar traits. Even her pattern of word choices make it very clear that she is only concerned about herself (or focused on women by proxy as an extension of herself, when she complains about being forced to suffer "patriarchal oppression" due to the choices of others).

Perhaps Emma was concerned about MC's job in regards to an unethical dalliance Jen, as you say, though that is a bit of a stretch, since she had no way of knowing the two would be in a relationship at that point in the story. But let's say she did, then I would expect phrases like: "You need to worry more about your future, CHARNAME" to be said by her. I can't remember anything like that being offered to the MC. I think I recall her saying she was worried about Jen, but that's it, though I could be misremembering.

Again, I think the dev has created a very interesting and dynamic character with Emma, including a great backstory with MC and the powder keg of emotions and motivations that comprises their relationship. The problem is that she is proving to be too selfish, among other issues, and those are making her into an unlikeable and unattractive LI as the story unfolds. Though that could be intentional for any variety of reasons. The simplest could be: everyone loves a good redemption story. Care is needed though if that's the case, because it's quite common these days that a writer unintentionally makes the character too unlikeable, to the point that they become irredeemable in the eyes of the viewer, and the whole thing falls apart.

 

[EndlessNights]

I would ask you to think back on that story arc and answer this question for me: was it the friend who wanted to track down the blackmailer, or was it instead Emma who had a thirst for vengeance and talked her friend into it to satiate her own selfish need for justice?

Emma believes in moral truth and justice. I don't think her wanting to see justice for her friend is selfish -- it's just a reflection of her values. When it comes to sex crimes in particular, victims are often reluctant to come forward so Monika's hesitation is completely understandable. What she has to grapple with is something every victim has to grapple with. She's unfortunately not wrong to think she might face ridicule, embarrassment, and further exposure for coming forward. She's not wrong to think she might even be better off just moving on. But she'll have to live with the consequences of what her abuser did no matter what. I and probably Emma would argue it's nonetheless worth it to stand up for yourself and against those who seek to harm and control you.

And if they failed, do you think it might be possible that Monika would have ended up feeling even worse about the whole situation when so many people had just wasted their time without accomplishing anything? Especially when she just wanted to move on with her life at the outset? If they didn't get extremely lucky and catch the bastard, I see this selfish manipulation – and that's my own interpretation of Emma's behaviour – of her friend very likely blowing up in Emma's face, because good intentions won't save her when she selfishly runs roughshod over everyone around her to get what she wants.

It's a matter of personal opinion and every individual situation may be a little different, but I think Monika would have been worse off accepting that justice is impossible to achieve and that there is nothing she could do about the situation even in the scenario where no one is ever caught. Accepting your own complete powerlessness is bitter poison to the mind and leaves you ill-prepared to deal with bad actors in the future.

Also, we know exactly who the perpetrator is so I'm not sure why we should give more weight to hypothetical scenarios than the actual events of the story. What do you think would have happened if Monika had just moved on? My guess is her boyfriend would have turned her into an unwitting Internet porn star and sent her nudes hither and thither as a way to control her whenever he felt she was going too far out of his orbit or employed some other form of emotional abuse to keep her under his thumb. Would that have been a better outcome for her? Would she not end up feeling worse after x more years of victimization?

Emma certainly has a forceful personality, but I don't remember any scene in the game that supports the idea that she browbeat Monika into doing something she was absolutely certain she didn't want to do. Monika wanted to talk about her situation and chose to turn to Emma to help her think things through. Sure, Emma is always going to have her say and be very opinionated, but at the end of the day I feel she would've accepted Monika's decision to drop it if Monika had fully made up her mind. It's not wrong to share your opinion with a friend who is seeking it.

This is why I asked if you could point out to me any actions towards the MC that showed Emma acting unselfishly, and why I have to note that you failed to do so in your response. You gave some interpretations of actions she took to potentially help others, but you couldn't find anything that she did to help and support the MC.

I actually don't think Emma is particularly supportive of the MC. In fact, I even pointed out a specific example where she totally failed to be there for him when he needed support. I just don't think the reason she isn't supportive of him is because she's selfish, but I won't waste my time by repeating my arguments.

 

[Hephannon]

Imo, Emma is a bitch, unsecure, hypocritical, hateful, full of lies and unable to accept herself or others
Dump'her, Jen is soooo much better : smart, nice, classy, and so eager to please in bed

 

[DeFuZe]

Imo, Emma is a bitch, unsecure, hypocritical, hateful, full of lies and unable to accept herself or others
Dump'her, Jen is soooo much better : smart, nice, classy, and so eager to please in bed

Emma is eager to please too in her own way. It's good how well these characters were written if it can stir so many arguments among people. At least each one is unique enough.

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

Emma is just too confrontational, reckless, judgmental, and misandrist to be a proper GF. The mini arc of her and MC helping out Monika exacerbates her flaws painfully. If MC isn't around, I wouldn't be surprised if she beats up the ex-boyfriend first then asks questions later.

 

[Jack Townsend]

I feel like the maledom path is best with Emma. At least on this path, Emma gains begrudging respect and admiration for the MC. The femdom path seems to only harden her contempt for him, and all men in general.

 

[dolfe67]

The femdom path seems to only harden her contempt for him, and all men in general.

That's what make it fun

 

[RoryTate]

It's a matter of personal opinion and every individual situation may be a little different, but I think Monika would have been worse off accepting that justice is impossible to achieve and that there is nothing she could do about the situation even in the scenario where no one is ever caught. Accepting your own complete powerlessness is bitter poison to the mind and leaves you ill-prepared to deal with bad actors in the future.

That's very well said, and a good life lesson to learn as well about feelings of "hopelessness" and "helplessness" being the most dangerous red flags when people face challenges in their lives. I am actually a person of action too. However, not everyone is like us, so I would be careful not to project your thoughts and motivations onto others, whether that is onto Monika in the game or elsewhere. I have actually talked with many husbands who are initially confused at their wives' reticence to do anything about some problem that is brought up. For example, I hear stories about spouses sharing the details of a problem in the workplace, and the husband often instinctively responds by taking time to form an action plan to make sure it doesn't happen again, or outlines the steps to take to resolve the current conflict, only to realize that their wife just loved talking, wanted him to commiserate with her about being in a tough situation, and then move on without doing anything. It's a tough pill to swallow, and a bit hard for many men to learn to accept this desire for inaction, but it's something that many have spoken with me about having to learn to do in their relationship/marriage.

I just wanted to add one final point about why I focus so much on Emma's actions here. It's because it is actions, not a person's words or intentions, that are used to judge people. It is what we do that makes us good or bad people, and it's as simple as that.

It's good how well these characters were written if it can stir so many arguments among people.

There's a problem with that kind of blanket interpretation though. Say I own a restaurant. I serve a nice apple pie, but one day I decide to change the recipe by putting dog feces in the pie instead of apples. My customers – both actual and potential ones – all yell and argue loudly that this wasn't what they expected or wanted, and my business ultimately suffers because I'm not giving people what they expected. A small but very vocal minority say they absolutely love the new taste. So is all that arguing that was stirred up good? Or bad?

Now to be clear, the situation with NiF is nowhere near as awful as this – we are not being fed crap – so don't take this extreme restaurant analogy as anything more than a hyperbolic way to make the point that "subverting expectations" is never a good thing in and of itself. Loud arguing and bickering in the audience more often spells significant issues in a creative endeavour, as opposed to signaling healthy and productive debate regarding the various interpretations of the story.

IMO, the better way to view this kind of discussion is that – in the case of NiF – it shows that the setup and potential of the game/story has inspired many people to try and help improve things, through the mechanism of letting the creator find ways to fix some potential missteps – which I would summarize as mostly revolving around mischaracterizations and the clinical focus on "kinks" rather than personalities – that they are suggesting may have occurred. In the end, whether there is something missing that could improve the game is a decision we all have to wait and see about. And even if the dev agrees that there may be a problem, there is no way the audience can say how to fix things within the overall story. And that's not even considering whether the execution of those planned fixes can resolve anything (again, if issues even exist in the first place, or matter enough to try and fix). So yeah...this kind of discussion is not really great news. But it's not too horrible either yet, because it shows people still care enough that they haven't just given up and gone silent.

 

[ItzSpc]

Emma is just too confrontational, reckless, judgmental, and misandrist to be a proper GF. The mini arc of her and MC helping out Monika exacerbates her flaws painfully. If MC isn't around, I wouldn't be surprised if she beats up the ex-boyfriend first then asks questions later.

Oh yeah, Emma is pump and dump material, definitely not wife material. No arguments here.

 

[DinosTheGreekos]

Great game! Enjoying all the girls designs, quirks/kinks, and dialogue, especially Deb and Olivia

Just wish we weren't forced into 1 route and could mix up sub/dom, like having sex with Deb but also agreeing to foot worship and edging. Maybe as your relationships develop you get to have a bit of best of both

Also, nice add with chess play by play, much better than Queens Gambit "she's in trouble...aaand she won"

Just added to Steam wishlist and looking forward to Q4 release

 

[Blabla95]

What a great game ! Jen for me is the best carachter, submissive at bed
So fucking great, I don t believe it, I just discover this game now !

 

[dumbass55]

You can't read a page of text in this game without some character ranting about "sexist men."

Dev, you good?

 

[osanaiko]

Nominative Determinism has entered the thread...

 

[leo5298]

You can't read a page of text in this game without some character ranting about "sexist men."

Dev, you good?

It might not necessarily be representing the political views of the dev but rather representative of certain misandric elements in our culture, which the characters are embodying.

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

You can't read a page of text in this game without some character ranting about "sexist men."

Dev, you good?

It's just Emma, who's deliberately a misandrist.

 

[dumbass55]

It might not necessarily be representing the political views of the dev but rather representative of certain misandric elements in our culture, which the characters are embodying.

And yet when games depict so called misogynistic elements, they usually make it loud and clear how evil sexist man is stupid and no one likes him. If all the characters just go along with whatever the misandrists are saying, and what they're saying reflects common real world beliefs, then it just reinforces those misconceptions. The only people who can see how stupid they are, are people who already disagree with them. And then it just feels shitty playing a game where all the characters are delusional.

Or are you saying that the MC finally grows a pair further in the game and "educates" Emma?

If that's the case I apologize to the dev.

 

[_user]

Or are you saying that the MC finally grows a pair further in the game and "educates" Emma?

Emma has 2 paths, femdom and misogyny. The latter is basically all about "educating" her. Sounds like it's exactly what you're looking for.