VN Ren'Py Abandoned Nothing Is Forever [v0.7.3] [MrSilverLust]

[reidanota]

I have to say you are conflating cheaters with free spirits and sluts! Being a free spirit and/or a slut does not make you a cheater. Both can be completely loyal persons.

You're not entirely wrong, but you missed the "it's ok to be flawed" part. Why should characters (both player and NPCs) always conform to a type? Can an NPC be mostly loyal, but have a momentary fling? Can they be a loyal free spirit, but make an error of judgement and, possibly driven by impulse, take a step too far? And does the PC, upon finding out they've been cheated on, have to be a submissive who won't say or do anything that might risk them losing their LI? Or, for that matter, the opposite, like a strict alpha male who will lecture their LI on loyalty, make an ultimatum, take action against their "rival", etc? I simply would like to see characters that develop in unexpected, not stereotypical ways. The MC and their LI dealing with their personal demons and reaching some conclusion that doesn't involve a return to a vanilla relationship, or progression to one subjected to power dynamics stereotypes.

 

[Turret]

You're not entirely wrong, but you missed the "it's ok to be flawed" part. Why should characters (both player and NPCs) always conform to a type? Can an NPC be mostly loyal, but have a momentary fling? Can they be a loyal free spirit, but make an error of judgement and, possibly driven by impulse, take a step too far? And does the PC, upon finding out they've been cheated on, have to be EITHER a submissive who won't say or do anything that might risk them losing their LI? Or, for that matter, the opposite, like a strict alpha male who will lecture their LI on loyalty, make an ultimatum, take action against their "rival", etc? I simply would like to see characters that develop in unexpected, not stereotypical ways. The MC and their LI dealing with their personal demons and reaching some conclusion that doesn't involve either a return to a vanilla relationship, or one subjected to power dynamics stereotypes.

I see and understand your argument about unconventional reaction/actions, but I still think you got the examples (free spirits/sluts) wrong.

 

[reidanota]

I see and understand your argument about unconventional reaction/actions, but I still think you got the examples (free spirits/sluts) wrong.

Didn't want to sound as if they were types. You're right if you think I meant that free-spirit is a type that implies cheating, or even that slut is so, in the same sense. I used those terms as qualities or traits of complex characters. A free spirited person, a slutty person, even a timid person can all cheat, albeit it would make sense to say that situations that would believably trigger cheating would probably be different for each. They could also all be loyal and find reasons to dispel temptations. My issue is that authors commonly adhere to conventional character types, both for the PC and for the NPCs. Even if those types can be changed through choices in a game or interactive VN, you often feel like choices merely shift you from one type path to another. In many non-hentai games, NTR is "so avoidable" that you have to play as if your MC were a complete asshole, making all the "wrong" choices in order to hurt your LI or lose their trust or interest - and then, you're normally stuck in a "punishment" path where things can't go right for you.

In my first post I was really interested in finding out how the NTR subject is dealt with in this game, as there's a lot of positive feedback on how the story is driven by the MC's traits rather than one-time choices. But stats isn't a magic solution either, if the story is written in such a way that once you're tagged with a trait, you're served with the stereotype relating to that trait. I wanted to know if there's more to it, for example, if you could be Manly and still be cheated on, whilst having a high Sensitive score would let you take a conciliatory path to dealing with it that might not involve a break-up or forcing your relationship to be exclusive again. Another example, most sharing/swinging content in games is consensual from the beginning, you normally don't see games where a dishonest relationship can be mended and turned into a satisfying open or swinging relationship. Just prying to see if this might be one of the exceptions. Also, not trying to say it's wrong if it isn't.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

You're not entirely wrong, but you missed the "it's ok to be flawed" part. Why should characters (both player and NPCs) always conform to a type? Can an NPC be mostly loyal, but have a momentary fling? Can they be a loyal free spirit, but make an error of judgement and, possibly driven by impulse, take a step too far? And does the PC, upon finding out they've been cheated on, have to be a submissive who won't say or do anything that might risk them losing their LI? Or, for that matter, the opposite, like a strict alpha male who will lecture their LI on loyalty, make an ultimatum, take action against their "rival", etc? I simply would like to see characters that develop in unexpected, not stereotypical ways. The MC and their LI dealing with their personal demons and reaching some conclusion that doesn't involve a return to a vanilla relationship, or progression to one subjected to power dynamics stereotypes.

Sex IS power dynamics. We may not like it, we make seek to ignore it, but no one's fooling anyone at the end of the day.

Having said that, I do understand your point about unpredictable behaviors. Far too many avn stories follow a simple binary as you described - either the cheated partner will be a a doormat or a hyper-dominant "alpha". It's akin to how an unnattractive person will say they're shirking society's pressures to look attractive and find a mate; when ironically their behaviors are perfectly in-line with the existing paradigm. I get it, truly unique characters would be more engaging.

As for your earlier question, I would describe this game as having very few ntr routes. Kim has some, I couldnt speak to hers as I never entertain that haughty fuggo for more than 5 seconds. The other characters with swinging/sharing content (that would be considered ntr to a harem player) all have very organic paths, there's no "bad ending" like they start fucking the whole town behind your back, they're more like real relationships.\

-edit: HOWEVER, after seeing your second post, it should be noted the game doesn't have the larger variety of interactions you're describing. If you start on the submissive path with say Jen, her dialogue isn't any different if you have high red points (manly) vs a high blue tree (sensitive). All that's required are the sufficient traits to start the path; in this case blue skills.

 

[Jaga Telesin]

Sex IS power dynamics. We may not like it, we make seek to ignore it, but no one's fooling anyone at the end of the day.

Sex, at it's core, is about giving and receiving pleasure (forgetting that our bodies use it to procreate).

Some people may take it further and turn it into a power play, but that's not it's most essential function from a need perspective. I stopped looking at it as a dom/sub relationship a loooong time ago, and while I still enjoy the occasional bit of handcuffing and/or blindfolding I went back to the core bits: giving and receiving pleasure. Doming/Subing is definitely a kink, and that's where the power play comes in.

 

[DarknessDai]

Didn't want to sound as if they were types. You're right if you think I meant that free-spirit is a type that implies cheating, or even that slut is so, in the same sense. I used those terms as qualities or traits of complex characters. A free spirited person, a slutty person, even a timid person can all cheat, albeit it would make sense to say that situations that would believably trigger cheating would probably be different for each. They could also all be loyal and find reasons to dispel temptations. My issue is that authors commonly adhere to conventional character types, both for the PC and for the NPCs. Even if those types can be changed through choices in a game or interactive VN, you often feel like choices merely shift you from one type path to another. In many non-hentai games, NTR is "so avoidable" that you have to play as if your MC were a complete asshole, making all the "wrong" choices in order to hurt your LI or lose their trust or interest - and then, you're normally stuck in a "punishment" path where things can't go right for you.

In my first post I was really interested in finding out how the NTR subject is dealt with in this game, as there's a lot of positive feedback on how the story is driven by the MC's traits rather than one-time choices. But stats isn't a magic solution either, if the story is written in such a way that once you're tagged with a trait, you're served with the stereotype relating to that trait. I wanted to know if there's more to it, for example, if you could be Manly and still be cheated on, whilst having a high Sensitive score would let you take a conciliatory path to dealing with it that might not involve a break-up or forcing your relationship to be exclusive again. Another example, most sharing/swinging content in games is consensual from the beginning, you normally don't see games where a dishonest relationship can be mended and turned into a satisfying open or swinging relationship. Just prying to see if this might be one of the exceptions. Also, not trying to say it's wrong if it isn't.

you Nailed it bro , if Dev starts making their games and /NTR in their games like this ...only if

 

[Skep-tiker]

(NTR)can be mended and turned into a satisfying open or swinging relationship.

From my experience, an open relationship requires an amount of trust, which is unobtainable after one or both parties involved have cheated.

 

[reidanota]

From my experience, an open relationship requires an amount of trust, which is unobtainable after one or both parties involved have cheated.

I respect your experience, for I have none (in open relationships). But even one person's experience is just anecdotal, isn't it? It's not like everything we do deserves a final judgement, that we can't ever make amends, that forgiveness isn't even a thing. Trust comes from within, requires willpower and isn't incompatible with acknowledging the possibility of being broken again. Sure, it's not for everybody, but characters can be written in any way the author wants. As long as they're believable, I prefer nuance to binary choices, judgements and reactions. Honestly, the whole alpha/beta, sub/dom narrative is killing most stories.

 

[mehGusta]

Are there any NTR routes with a MC that is NOT submissive? I've looked around and this seems to be the rarest thing. And rarity makes it sweet, doesn't it? A majority of NTR in games depends on the MC either being a sub, or making unassertive choices, with the outcome of being cucked without having the balls to claim even a share of the pie. Or getting their LI outright stolen from them. Why does it always have to be the MC's choice that drives the story? Most NPCs in games are shallow and, be it through paths or points, they adapt themselves to the player. It's so rare to see a game where NPCs have their own agenda, regardless of whether the player is submissive, dominant or just easy-going. For my part, I'd love to play a game where a LI will cheat independently of the MC's actions, because they're cheats, free spirits or sluts. It's ok for characters to be flawed. It's ok for players to decide how to deal with their LI's flaws, just as with their own. It's ok to forgive and not be portrayed as submissive cuckolds. A game where relationships were a bit more dynamic and less player-centric, had highs and lows, would be great. Personally, I enjoy some jealousy, but NOT what you'd call a "bad ending" where you're an accepting cuck or get dumped. Most NTR paths don't offer any off-ramps - you may get a choice to avoid it, but once on that path, you're done for. Why does NTR have to correlate with weak willed characters?

Does this game has that kind of nuance?

while i agree with the problem of a submissive male MC to be in the position of NTR or cuck seemingly a must have, especially since i detest the linking of cuckhold/cuckquean to being a sub simultaneously (dominant cuckquean is hot as fuck!), i would strongly advice against creating stories with cheating love interests without player input!

usually players of a game with multiple love interests tend to choose one specific character and get emotionally invested in their story. if the game is possible to be played to a certain point without any NTR elements and then you surprise the player with a non-optional cheating scene, you are gonna get hated for it! even if you would force every love interest into a cheating scene, aka making the game into a "you knew what was coming for you, so you can't complain", people will complain. simply because the player will feel like being punished or being mocked, even though they did nothing wrong.
therefore a player needs to be able to create their own doom, or be able to avoid it. because then it's always justified.

the only thing i could imagine where your scenario could work, is with a character like Kim. you can only start her relationship by having her cheat on her boyfriend. so she is already a cheater and nobody should be surprised that they might cheat on you too.
so what you definitely need, is to label a character into a position of possibly cheating on you, right from the start.
while that might work, this greatly limits your creative freedom in shaping your character's uniqueness and by that maybe also the effectiveness of your story.

 

[reidanota]

therefore a player needs to be able to create their own doom, or be able to avoid it. because then it's always justified.

I think I failed to make my point completely... Didn't say the game shouldn't WARN the player that a given choice would lead to NTR. What I meant was that the choice itself didn't have to be of the "crime-punishment" type. The "walk in the park" example: the player gets to choose whether to go directly home, or take a walk by the park. They're not doing anything that elicits cheating from their LI, they merely create an opportunity for hazard to play in. During that extra alone time, the LI meets a stranger and surrenders to an impulse. I don't think this is far-fetched, happens all the time... But why did I suggest it? Because making NTR a punishment path takes all the fun out of it. I don't like playing asshole characters who make dumb choices and get cucked for their own stupidity. But if the MC were to make a totally innocent choice that allowed for NTR, I might take it and see where it would lead to. Important point: the opportunity to opt out would be there, if the author placed a warning on the choice. That would allow players to avoid NTR, or embrace it, without splitting the story between smart MC and dumb MC. Player input would be there.

Exploring an NTR route that weren't a punishment for the MC's fault of character probably would allow for much more interesting interactions, and put a greater focus on the LI's own feelings, conflicts and fears. Most games lack this, all the NPCs are doing there is reacting to player actions, sometimes making them behave so differently on different paths that it's hard to believe they're the same character.

Also tried to say that you don't need to label a character as a cheater, in order to have them cheat, or prepare the player for that possibility. Just give them a clear opt-out, but let characters be more dynamic. I do see your point in the sense that your LI cheating just because they had the opportunity to do so, sounds cheap (and doesn't cast a good light on them). But that's hardly an issue, if the story can later explore the motive. People repress their fantasies all the time... Maybe that could have been the case? Suddenly, the LI's repressed fantasy burst out during an accidental encounter, and they decided to live it, even if it meant trouble ahead with the MC. Don't people do that all the time? You don't even have to label them "a cheat" AFTER they cheated, as if their whole character had to be reduced to that one, possibly wrong, choice. We all fail to meet our standards sometimes, and our standards themselves may shift. Labelling people (real or ficticious) is self-righteous and hypocritical. But, if a character in a story is presented in a shallow and simplistic manner, labelling is almost inevitable.

 

[mehGusta]

I think I failed to make my point completely... Didn't say the game shouldn't WARN the player that a given choice would lead to NTR. What I meant was that the choice itself didn't have to be of the "crime-punishment" type. The "walk in the park" example: the player gets to choose whether to go directly home, or take a walk by the park. They're not doing anything that elicits cheating from their LI, they merely create an opportunity for hazard to play in. During that extra alone time, the LI meets a stranger and surrenders to an impulse. I don't think this is far-fetched, happens all the time... But why did I suggest it? Because making NTR a punishment path takes all the fun out of it. I don't like playing asshole characters who make dumb choices and get cucked for their own stupidity. But if the MC were to make a totally innocent choice that allowed for NTR, I might take it and see where it would lead to. Important point: the opportunity to opt out would be there, if the author placed a warning on the choice. That would allow players to avoid NTR, or embrace it, without splitting the story between smart MC and dumb MC. Player input would be there.

Exploring an NTR route that weren't a punishment for the MC's fault of character probably would allow for much more interesting interactions, and put a greater focus on the LI's own feelings, conflicts and fears. Most games lack this, all the NPCs are doing there is reacting to player actions, sometimes making them behave so differently on different paths that it's hard to believe they're the same character.

Also tried to say that you don't need to label a character as a cheater, in order to have them cheat, or prepare the player for that possibility. Just give them a clear opt-out, but let characters be more dynamic. I do see your point in the sense that your LI cheating just because they had the opportunity to do so, sounds cheap (and doesn't cast a good light on them). But that's hardly an issue, if the story can later explore the motive. People repress their fantasies all the time... Maybe that could have been the case? Suddenly, the LI's repressed fantasy burst out during an accidental encounter, and they decided to live it, even if it meant trouble ahead with the MC. Don't people do that all the time? You don't even have to label them "a cheat" AFTER they cheated, as if their whole character had to be reduced to that one, possibly wrong, choice. We all fail to meet our standards sometimes, and our standards themselves may shift. Labelling people (real or ficticious) is self-righteous and hypocritical. But, if a character in a story is presented in a shallow and simplistic manner, labelling is almost inevitable.

nicely thought out idea. i could get behind that.

though i still think that a lot of people would dislike having a love interest cheat, only because there was a chance to cheat. because ultimately she is not loyal and the player only got "lucky" that he prevented it from happening. then i don't label her a cheater, she herself becomes one (or rather the general consensus elects she is). i think it should then still be a player driven interaction. like the love interest could have a corruption value, which you can increase by being supportive of her behaviour. and then when the scene happens, she cheats or doesn't depending on her corruption level.
though i guess that is too much of the normal problem for you already.

 

[reidanota]

the love interest could have a corruption value, which you can increase by being supportive of her behaviour. and then when the scene happens, she cheats or doesn't depending on her corruption level.

Yes, that works and I can see that being implemented in a more interesting way, but I'd still like to see a game that took all the stigma out of it. I maintain that if someone cheats, that doesn't make them corrupt. They're someone who cheated. I don't care about the general consensus... People in general are too judgemental, and if you get into group thinking, it's even worse. It's a responsible commercial decision for an author to cater to the general public, or specific well known groups within the public, but they don't have to. A good author will be able to make at least some people pause and think. Labelling is the most basic form of thought... To categorize objects based on their most relevant features. But it's something any pre-school kid can do. They can tell a horse from a dog, and, unfortunately, they can also tell the "bad kids" from the "good kids" (how many of us haven't been through the trauma of a lonely childhood, because we didn't want to get along with the kids that do "bad things")? An adult should be able to discern beyond the level of labelling. To base your opinion of a character in one single act in the story, as in cheating defines them as a cheat, and a bad person, is kinda lazy, like one issue voting. I understand that for many players, a beloved character who suddenly cheated would be a shock - isn't that the whole point of NTR? I get that part... What I don't get is the desire to be shocked and crushed emotionally up until the very end. But a betrayal of trust is just that, one betrayal of trust. Doesn't wipe out the whole prior relationship, not in my book. You (the MC) can decide you can't handle it, no problem. Or you can decide you can, and look at your LI as a person, someone whose actions do not stem directly from your own will. Challenging, but probably satisfying, if an author managed to guide us through such a process of going beyond what the collective subconscious wants you to think, say and do. That's the beauty of liberty. I'm not saying you can't be angry or that you have to forgive you LI - but I do say, if you're in control of your emotions, you should at least let them explain, perhaps even understand together where their actions stemmed from, and let each party make their own mind, without ultimatums or manipulation.

 

[Skep-tiker]

Yes, that works and I can see that being implemented in a more interesting way, but I'd still like to see a game that took all the stigma out of it. I maintain that if someone cheats, that doesn't make them corrupt. They're someone who cheated. I don't care about the general consensus... People in general are too judgemental, and if you get into group thinking, it's even worse. It's a responsible commercial decision for an author to cater to the general public, or specific well known groups within the public, but they don't have to. A good author will be able to make at least some people pause and think. Labelling is the most basic form of thought... To categorize objects based on their most relevant features. But it's something any pre-school kid can do. They can tell a horse from a dog, and, unfortunately, they can also tell the "bad kids" from the "good kids" (how many of us haven't been through the trauma of a lonely childhood, because we didn't want to get along with the kids that do "bad things")? An adult should be able to discern beyond the level of labelling. To base your opinion of a character in one single act in the story, as in cheating defines them as a cheat, and a bad person, is kinda lazy, like one issue voting. I understand that for many players, a beloved character who suddenly cheated would be a shock - isn't that the whole point of NTR? I get that part... What I don't get is the desire to be shocked and crushed emotionally up until the very end. But a betrayal of trust is just that, one betrayal of trust. Doesn't wipe out the whole prior relationship, not in my book. You (the MC) can decide you can't handle it, no problem. Or you can decide you can, and look at your LI as a person, someone whose actions do not stem directly from your own will. Challenging, but probably satisfying, if an author managed to guide us through such a process of going beyond what the collective subconscious wants you to think, say and do. That's the beauty of liberty. I'm not saying you can't be angry or that you have to forgive you LI - but I do say, if you're in control of your emotions, you should at least let them explain, perhaps even understand together where their actions stemmed from, and let each party make their own mind, without ultimatums or manipulation.

Im fine with cheating LI's, as long as there are realistic consequences, such as the possibility to kick them out of the door instead of having the choice to either forgive her, forgive her or forgive her.

 

[Jaga Telesin]

Im fine with cheating LI's, as long as there are realistic consequences, such as the possibility to kick them out of the door instead of having the choice to either forgive her, forgive her or forgive her.

This, x100.

Consequences for guys (MCs in particular) always seem to be FAR heavier than consequences for the girls (LIs). AVNs need a much more balanced playing field in terms of repercussions.

 

[mehGusta]

Yes, that works and I can see that being implemented in a more interesting way, but I'd still like to see a game that took all the stigma out of it. I maintain that if someone cheats, that doesn't make them corrupt. They're someone who cheated. I don't care about the general consensus... People in general are too judgemental, and if you get into group thinking, it's even worse. It's a responsible commercial decision for an author to cater to the general public, or specific well known groups within the public, but they don't have to. A good author will be able to make at least some people pause and think. Labelling is the most basic form of thought... To categorize objects based on their most relevant features. But it's something any pre-school kid can do. They can tell a horse from a dog, and, unfortunately, they can also tell the "bad kids" from the "good kids" (how many of us haven't been through the trauma of a lonely childhood, because we didn't want to get along with the kids that do "bad things")? An adult should be able to discern beyond the level of labelling. To base your opinion of a character in one single act in the story, as in cheating defines them as a cheat, and a bad person, is kinda lazy, like one issue voting. I understand that for many players, a beloved character who suddenly cheated would be a shock - isn't that the whole point of NTR? I get that part... What I don't get is the desire to be shocked and crushed emotionally up until the very end. But a betrayal of trust is just that, one betrayal of trust. Doesn't wipe out the whole prior relationship, not in my book. You (the MC) can decide you can't handle it, no problem. Or you can decide you can, and look at your LI as a person, someone whose actions do not stem directly from your own will. Challenging, but probably satisfying, if an author managed to guide us through such a process of going beyond what the collective subconscious wants you to think, say and do. That's the beauty of liberty. I'm not saying you can't be angry or that you have to forgive you LI - but I do say, if you're in control of your emotions, you should at least let them explain, perhaps even understand together where their actions stemmed from, and let each party make their own mind, without ultimatums or manipulation.

puuhh, that borders closely to real life issues now. i mean our resentment for certain characters stems from our own point of view, even if we are not the ones, who are in their shoes.
i don't condemn anyone who is able to forgive their partner for cheating. but i certainly can't forgive someone who cheated on me (i can call myself lucky that this has not happened to me).

it's probably overkill to compare these two, but i want to illustrate how deeply this affects me:
you might also don't forgive someone for murdering someone.

though of course murder is far worse than cheating, both are still trust issues. killing someone with my own hands is so bizzare to me, that anyone who does this is beyond me. they have taken something off, that makes them human. how could i trust such a person?
someone who cheats on me, have destroyed any semblance of trust i put on them. there is absolutely no telling if they won't do it again, if given the chance.
someone who has "yet" not cheated on me, i can still think that they would react the same way i do, if i cheated on them.

but games like these can have cheating or killing people, without me reacting this way. simply because it's not real. but who hasn't played a game and wanted to reload a save, because they were too rude to an NPC? so i still act in a certain way like i would do in reality. but since it's a fantasy, i can explore scenarios i wouldn't go normally.

that's why i think a game needs to protect characters from players hating on them. because when people get emotionally invested in them, you can't go off and destroy their image.
for example the game "acting lessons" has a very much hated ending, because the dev thought confronting the playerbase with an impactful situation like we discuss here, outside their power to change through choices, would make good drama.

don't get me wrong, it's drama like in all those romance soap operas, with "who loves who?" and "they did what?", which is pretty much the essence of a NTR game. just that the NTR game is neatly packaged in juicy explicit sex scenes.
however you have to be careful not offend them by creating drama.

-

i think

Im fine with cheating LI's, as long as there are realistic consequences, such as the possibility to kick them out of the door instead of having the choice to either forgive her, forgive her or forgive her.

is onto something here. i think what happens in a game, especially games like "nothing is forever" needs to be justified.
you need to justify why MC can cheat on Lea or Jen. you need to justify why MC can get involved with a cheater like Kim.
because otherwise it may become too real, and we explicitly play games to not play reality.
and if a LI is cheating on your MC, then it should be possible to throw her aside.

 

[reidanota]

I didn't want to make a statement, just offer my perspective on what makes NPCs more interesting, rather than bland. Didn't propose that anyone HAD TO forgive any cheating, just that it's a possibility an author could take into account, preferably in a way that made the both the MC and the NPC feel like intelligent and assertive people, not a weak willed MC (because "forgiveness" from submissive cucks is what we have all the time in these games, and I can't stand it), or a harsh and self-righteous MC. Just a matter of preference. We're clearly from different stand points with regards to "crime and punishment". I assure you I have no trust issues in real life, but I do strongly feel that one wrong move doesn't taint a person for life. And I did mention that not justifying the cheating would feel cheap and make the character less likeable - but that justification doesn't have to come in the guise of a corrupt or flawed character. I like that a good and loving NPC can cheat, because of some trigger in the moment, and regret it, or not... If the author wanted to portray them as an independent individual that doesn't merely conform to expectations. Let the player judge and decide whether to embrace being in a relationship with an independent individual, that may sometimes surprise them, in a good or bad way, or not. If they do embrace it, they don't necessarily have to accept the NPC's choices, and are absolutely entitled to name the conditions that make the relationship possible to them, and if the NPC can't agree, each can go their own way. I don't see why this has to be called "drama". If an author railroads me into an aggressive emotional reaction, that's where I may feel disconnected from the MC. I don't like aggressive emotional reactions and that's not what I look for in NTR. Emotions, yes, but the possibility of a cool-headed response, too. You're a harsher judge than I am. Comparing cheating to murder says you're willing to apply a categorical, final judgement for any and all acts of a kind, regardless of motive, or circumstance. I acknowledge that if a majority of players feels that way, authors are justified to try and avoid triggering their outrage. To the detriment of their story, imho, but at least they don't have to put up with the drama, in that regard, we agree. Keep the story simple and tidy, within stereotypes people can safely recognize and guide their reactions by, so as to avoid having to deal with a situation as what it is, a new and non repeatable situation that warrants consideration.

Forgive me if any or all of what I posted felt like a direct rebuttal. Not my intention, but I did feel like I was being criticised for defending cheaters, and may have been more defensive than I'd like to be, since I feel we're all guests in this thread and shouldn't turn it into a pulpit for proselytism.

 

[Sasarko99]

Pain, Agony... Anyone knows what's in store for chapter 8?

 

[sfree21]

any other game with a girl as submissive and devoted like the red head Jen ?

 

[flaviopaganini]

any other game with a girl as submissive and devoted like the red head Jen ?

The forum prohibits recommending other games in a specific game's thread. So I'll send you a list of topics where people ask for game recommendations on this theme.

https://f95zone.to/search/396926476...&c[child_nodes]=1&c[nodes][0]=104&o=relevance

If you don't find it, you can create a new thread asking about it here.
https://f95zone.to/forums/recommendations-identification.104/

Sorry if I seemed rude, but it's not very helpful to post recommendations here because a moderator will likely end up deleting our posts.

 

[WuzzyFuzzy]

The forum prohibits recommending other games in a specific game's thread. So I'll send you a list of topics where people ask for game recommendations on this theme.

https://f95zone.to/search/396926476...&c[child_nodes]=1&c[nodes][0]=104&o=relevance

If you don't find it, you can create a new thread asking about it here.
https://f95zone.to/forums/recommendations-identification.104/

Sorry if I seemed rude, but it's not very helpful to post recommendations here because a moderator will likely end up deleting our posts.

It happens, but it is rare. Just depends on the mod. There's a difference between ranting how X game is better than this game and friends helping friends by recommending similar games. Just don't take it too far.