VN Ren'Py Nothing Is Forever [v0.7.3] [MrSilverLust]

[Bryan_Colt]

Such a good story in this game i can not wait to see my dear Emma, Jen, Deb, Olivia, Lea.

 

[kino2]

does this game plan to have impregnation content in the future?

 

[Gicoo]

does this game plan to have impregnation content in the future?

Not known, but it wasn't listened as a fetish and the game is mainly about starting a relationship, so it may only be a thing in the epilogue.

 

[Dessolos]

does this game plan to have impregnation content in the future?

with how the relationships are handled in this one while im most likely wrong out of the paths ive played. I can really only seeing that being a thing with Emma and maybe Jen but that one is iffy unless there is some kind of time jump or the MC just goes ahead to decides to quit and lose his license.

 

[reidanota]

There are multiple ntr/cuckhold routes, with Lea and Kim too

Are there any NTR routes with a MC that is NOT submissive? I've looked around and this seems to be the rarest thing. And rarity makes it sweet, doesn't it? A majority of NTR in games depends on the MC either being a sub, or making unassertive choices, with the outcome of being cucked without having the balls to claim even a share of the pie. Or getting their LI outright stolen from them. Why does it always have to be the MC's choice that drives the story? Most NPCs in games are shallow and, be it through paths or points, they adapt themselves to the player. It's so rare to see a game where NPCs have their own agenda, regardless of whether the player is submissive, dominant or just easy-going. For my part, I'd love to play a game where a LI will cheat independently of the MC's actions, because they're cheats, free spirits or sluts. It's ok for characters to be flawed. It's ok for players to decide how to deal with their LI's flaws, just as with their own. It's ok to forgive and not be portrayed as submissive cuckolds. A game where relationships were a bit more dynamic and less player-centric, had highs and lows, would be great. Personally, I enjoy some jealousy, but NOT what you'd call a "bad ending" where you're an accepting cuck or get dumped. Most NTR paths don't offer any off-ramps - you may get a choice to avoid it, but once on that path, you're done for. Why does NTR have to correlate with weak willed characters?

Does this game has that kind of nuance?

 

[Turret]

For my part, I'd love to play a game where a LI will cheat independently of the MC's actions, because they're cheats, free spirits or sluts.

I have to say you are conflating cheaters with free spirits and sluts! Being a free spirit and/or a slut does not make you a cheater. Both can be completely loyal persons.

 

[reidanota]

I have to say you are conflating cheaters with free spirits and sluts! Being a free spirit and/or a slut does not make you a cheater. Both can be completely loyal persons.

You're not entirely wrong, but you missed the "it's ok to be flawed" part. Why should characters (both player and NPCs) always conform to a type? Can an NPC be mostly loyal, but have a momentary fling? Can they be a loyal free spirit, but make an error of judgement and, possibly driven by impulse, take a step too far? And does the PC, upon finding out they've been cheated on, have to be a submissive who won't say or do anything that might risk them losing their LI? Or, for that matter, the opposite, like a strict alpha male who will lecture their LI on loyalty, make an ultimatum, take action against their "rival", etc? I simply would like to see characters that develop in unexpected, not stereotypical ways. The MC and their LI dealing with their personal demons and reaching some conclusion that doesn't involve a return to a vanilla relationship, or progression to one subjected to power dynamics stereotypes.

 

[Turret]

You're not entirely wrong, but you missed the "it's ok to be flawed" part. Why should characters (both player and NPCs) always conform to a type? Can an NPC be mostly loyal, but have a momentary fling? Can they be a loyal free spirit, but make an error of judgement and, possibly driven by impulse, take a step too far? And does the PC, upon finding out they've been cheated on, have to be EITHER a submissive who won't say or do anything that might risk them losing their LI? Or, for that matter, the opposite, like a strict alpha male who will lecture their LI on loyalty, make an ultimatum, take action against their "rival", etc? I simply would like to see characters that develop in unexpected, not stereotypical ways. The MC and their LI dealing with their personal demons and reaching some conclusion that doesn't involve either a return to a vanilla relationship, or one subjected to power dynamics stereotypes.

I see and understand your argument about unconventional reaction/actions, but I still think you got the examples (free spirits/sluts) wrong.

 

[reidanota]

I see and understand your argument about unconventional reaction/actions, but I still think you got the examples (free spirits/sluts) wrong.

Didn't want to sound as if they were types. You're right if you think I meant that free-spirit is a type that implies cheating, or even that slut is so, in the same sense. I used those terms as qualities or traits of complex characters. A free spirited person, a slutty person, even a timid person can all cheat, albeit it would make sense to say that situations that would believably trigger cheating would probably be different for each. They could also all be loyal and find reasons to dispel temptations. My issue is that authors commonly adhere to conventional character types, both for the PC and for the NPCs. Even if those types can be changed through choices in a game or interactive VN, you often feel like choices merely shift you from one type path to another. In many non-hentai games, NTR is "so avoidable" that you have to play as if your MC were a complete asshole, making all the "wrong" choices in order to hurt your LI or lose their trust or interest - and then, you're normally stuck in a "punishment" path where things can't go right for you.

In my first post I was really interested in finding out how the NTR subject is dealt with in this game, as there's a lot of positive feedback on how the story is driven by the MC's traits rather than one-time choices. But stats isn't a magic solution either, if the story is written in such a way that once you're tagged with a trait, you're served with the stereotype relating to that trait. I wanted to know if there's more to it, for example, if you could be Manly and still be cheated on, whilst having a high Sensitive score would let you take a conciliatory path to dealing with it that might not involve a break-up or forcing your relationship to be exclusive again. Another example, most sharing/swinging content in games is consensual from the beginning, you normally don't see games where a dishonest relationship can be mended and turned into a satisfying open or swinging relationship. Just prying to see if this might be one of the exceptions. Also, not trying to say it's wrong if it isn't.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

You're not entirely wrong, but you missed the "it's ok to be flawed" part. Why should characters (both player and NPCs) always conform to a type? Can an NPC be mostly loyal, but have a momentary fling? Can they be a loyal free spirit, but make an error of judgement and, possibly driven by impulse, take a step too far? And does the PC, upon finding out they've been cheated on, have to be a submissive who won't say or do anything that might risk them losing their LI? Or, for that matter, the opposite, like a strict alpha male who will lecture their LI on loyalty, make an ultimatum, take action against their "rival", etc? I simply would like to see characters that develop in unexpected, not stereotypical ways. The MC and their LI dealing with their personal demons and reaching some conclusion that doesn't involve a return to a vanilla relationship, or progression to one subjected to power dynamics stereotypes.

Sex IS power dynamics. We may not like it, we make seek to ignore it, but no one's fooling anyone at the end of the day.

Having said that, I do understand your point about unpredictable behaviors. Far too many avn stories follow a simple binary as you described - either the cheated partner will be a a doormat or a hyper-dominant "alpha". It's akin to how an unnattractive person will say they're shirking society's pressures to look attractive and find a mate; when ironically their behaviors are perfectly in-line with the existing paradigm. I get it, truly unique characters would be more engaging.

As for your earlier question, I would describe this game as having very few ntr routes. Kim has some, I couldnt speak to hers as I never entertain that haughty fuggo for more than 5 seconds. The other characters with swinging/sharing content (that would be considered ntr to a harem player) all have very organic paths, there's no "bad ending" like they start fucking the whole town behind your back, they're more like real relationships.\

-edit: HOWEVER, after seeing your second post, it should be noted the game doesn't have the larger variety of interactions you're describing. If you start on the submissive path with say Jen, her dialogue isn't any different if you have high red points (manly) vs a high blue tree (sensitive). All that's required are the sufficient traits to start the path; in this case blue skills.

 

[Jaga Telesin]

Sex IS power dynamics. We may not like it, we make seek to ignore it, but no one's fooling anyone at the end of the day.

Sex, at it's core, is about giving and receiving pleasure (forgetting that our bodies use it to procreate).

Some people may take it further and turn it into a power play, but that's not it's most essential function from a need perspective. I stopped looking at it as a dom/sub relationship a loooong time ago, and while I still enjoy the occasional bit of handcuffing and/or blindfolding I went back to the core bits: giving and receiving pleasure. Doming/Subing is definitely a kink, and that's where the power play comes in.

 

[DarknessDai]

Didn't want to sound as if they were types. You're right if you think I meant that free-spirit is a type that implies cheating, or even that slut is so, in the same sense. I used those terms as qualities or traits of complex characters. A free spirited person, a slutty person, even a timid person can all cheat, albeit it would make sense to say that situations that would believably trigger cheating would probably be different for each. They could also all be loyal and find reasons to dispel temptations. My issue is that authors commonly adhere to conventional character types, both for the PC and for the NPCs. Even if those types can be changed through choices in a game or interactive VN, you often feel like choices merely shift you from one type path to another. In many non-hentai games, NTR is "so avoidable" that you have to play as if your MC were a complete asshole, making all the "wrong" choices in order to hurt your LI or lose their trust or interest - and then, you're normally stuck in a "punishment" path where things can't go right for you.

In my first post I was really interested in finding out how the NTR subject is dealt with in this game, as there's a lot of positive feedback on how the story is driven by the MC's traits rather than one-time choices. But stats isn't a magic solution either, if the story is written in such a way that once you're tagged with a trait, you're served with the stereotype relating to that trait. I wanted to know if there's more to it, for example, if you could be Manly and still be cheated on, whilst having a high Sensitive score would let you take a conciliatory path to dealing with it that might not involve a break-up or forcing your relationship to be exclusive again. Another example, most sharing/swinging content in games is consensual from the beginning, you normally don't see games where a dishonest relationship can be mended and turned into a satisfying open or swinging relationship. Just prying to see if this might be one of the exceptions. Also, not trying to say it's wrong if it isn't.

you Nailed it bro , if Dev starts making their games and /NTR in their games like this ...only if

 

[Skep-tiker]

(NTR)can be mended and turned into a satisfying open or swinging relationship.

From my experience, an open relationship requires an amount of trust, which is unobtainable after one or both parties involved have cheated.

 

[reidanota]

From my experience, an open relationship requires an amount of trust, which is unobtainable after one or both parties involved have cheated.

I respect your experience, for I have none (in open relationships). But even one person's experience is just anecdotal, isn't it? It's not like everything we do deserves a final judgement, that we can't ever make amends, that forgiveness isn't even a thing. Trust comes from within, requires willpower and isn't incompatible with acknowledging the possibility of being broken again. Sure, it's not for everybody, but characters can be written in any way the author wants. As long as they're believable, I prefer nuance to binary choices, judgements and reactions. Honestly, the whole alpha/beta, sub/dom narrative is killing most stories.

 

[mehGusta]

Are there any NTR routes with a MC that is NOT submissive? I've looked around and this seems to be the rarest thing. And rarity makes it sweet, doesn't it? A majority of NTR in games depends on the MC either being a sub, or making unassertive choices, with the outcome of being cucked without having the balls to claim even a share of the pie. Or getting their LI outright stolen from them. Why does it always have to be the MC's choice that drives the story? Most NPCs in games are shallow and, be it through paths or points, they adapt themselves to the player. It's so rare to see a game where NPCs have their own agenda, regardless of whether the player is submissive, dominant or just easy-going. For my part, I'd love to play a game where a LI will cheat independently of the MC's actions, because they're cheats, free spirits or sluts. It's ok for characters to be flawed. It's ok for players to decide how to deal with their LI's flaws, just as with their own. It's ok to forgive and not be portrayed as submissive cuckolds. A game where relationships were a bit more dynamic and less player-centric, had highs and lows, would be great. Personally, I enjoy some jealousy, but NOT what you'd call a "bad ending" where you're an accepting cuck or get dumped. Most NTR paths don't offer any off-ramps - you may get a choice to avoid it, but once on that path, you're done for. Why does NTR have to correlate with weak willed characters?

Does this game has that kind of nuance?

while i agree with the problem of a submissive male MC to be in the position of NTR or cuck seemingly a must have, especially since i detest the linking of cuckhold/cuckquean to being a sub simultaneously (dominant cuckquean is hot as fuck!), i would strongly advice against creating stories with cheating love interests without player input!

usually players of a game with multiple love interests tend to choose one specific character and get emotionally invested in their story. if the game is possible to be played to a certain point without any NTR elements and then you surprise the player with a non-optional cheating scene, you are gonna get hated for it! even if you would force every love interest into a cheating scene, aka making the game into a "you knew what was coming for you, so you can't complain", people will complain. simply because the player will feel like being punished or being mocked, even though they did nothing wrong.
therefore a player needs to be able to create their own doom, or be able to avoid it. because then it's always justified.

the only thing i could imagine where your scenario could work, is with a character like Kim. you can only start her relationship by having her cheat on her boyfriend. so she is already a cheater and nobody should be surprised that they might cheat on you too.
so what you definitely need, is to label a character into a position of possibly cheating on you, right from the start.
while that might work, this greatly limits your creative freedom in shaping your character's uniqueness and by that maybe also the effectiveness of your story.

 

[reidanota]

therefore a player needs to be able to create their own doom, or be able to avoid it. because then it's always justified.

I think I failed to make my point completely... Didn't say the game shouldn't WARN the player that a given choice would lead to NTR. What I meant was that the choice itself didn't have to be of the "crime-punishment" type. The "walk in the park" example: the player gets to choose whether to go directly home, or take a walk by the park. They're not doing anything that elicits cheating from their LI, they merely create an opportunity for hazard to play in. During that extra alone time, the LI meets a stranger and surrenders to an impulse. I don't think this is far-fetched, happens all the time... But why did I suggest it? Because making NTR a punishment path takes all the fun out of it. I don't like playing asshole characters who make dumb choices and get cucked for their own stupidity. But if the MC were to make a totally innocent choice that allowed for NTR, I might take it and see where it would lead to. Important point: the opportunity to opt out would be there, if the author placed a warning on the choice. That would allow players to avoid NTR, or embrace it, without splitting the story between smart MC and dumb MC. Player input would be there.

Exploring an NTR route that weren't a punishment for the MC's fault of character probably would allow for much more interesting interactions, and put a greater focus on the LI's own feelings, conflicts and fears. Most games lack this, all the NPCs are doing there is reacting to player actions, sometimes making them behave so differently on different paths that it's hard to believe they're the same character.

Also tried to say that you don't need to label a character as a cheater, in order to have them cheat, or prepare the player for that possibility. Just give them a clear opt-out, but let characters be more dynamic. I do see your point in the sense that your LI cheating just because they had the opportunity to do so, sounds cheap (and doesn't cast a good light on them). But that's hardly an issue, if the story can later explore the motive. People repress their fantasies all the time... Maybe that could have been the case? Suddenly, the LI's repressed fantasy burst out during an accidental encounter, and they decided to live it, even if it meant trouble ahead with the MC. Don't people do that all the time? You don't even have to label them "a cheat" AFTER they cheated, as if their whole character had to be reduced to that one, possibly wrong, choice. We all fail to meet our standards sometimes, and our standards themselves may shift. Labelling people (real or ficticious) is self-righteous and hypocritical. But, if a character in a story is presented in a shallow and simplistic manner, labelling is almost inevitable.

 

[mehGusta]

I think I failed to make my point completely... Didn't say the game shouldn't WARN the player that a given choice would lead to NTR. What I meant was that the choice itself didn't have to be of the "crime-punishment" type. The "walk in the park" example: the player gets to choose whether to go directly home, or take a walk by the park. They're not doing anything that elicits cheating from their LI, they merely create an opportunity for hazard to play in. During that extra alone time, the LI meets a stranger and surrenders to an impulse. I don't think this is far-fetched, happens all the time... But why did I suggest it? Because making NTR a punishment path takes all the fun out of it. I don't like playing asshole characters who make dumb choices and get cucked for their own stupidity. But if the MC were to make a totally innocent choice that allowed for NTR, I might take it and see where it would lead to. Important point: the opportunity to opt out would be there, if the author placed a warning on the choice. That would allow players to avoid NTR, or embrace it, without splitting the story between smart MC and dumb MC. Player input would be there.

Exploring an NTR route that weren't a punishment for the MC's fault of character probably would allow for much more interesting interactions, and put a greater focus on the LI's own feelings, conflicts and fears. Most games lack this, all the NPCs are doing there is reacting to player actions, sometimes making them behave so differently on different paths that it's hard to believe they're the same character.

Also tried to say that you don't need to label a character as a cheater, in order to have them cheat, or prepare the player for that possibility. Just give them a clear opt-out, but let characters be more dynamic. I do see your point in the sense that your LI cheating just because they had the opportunity to do so, sounds cheap (and doesn't cast a good light on them). But that's hardly an issue, if the story can later explore the motive. People repress their fantasies all the time... Maybe that could have been the case? Suddenly, the LI's repressed fantasy burst out during an accidental encounter, and they decided to live it, even if it meant trouble ahead with the MC. Don't people do that all the time? You don't even have to label them "a cheat" AFTER they cheated, as if their whole character had to be reduced to that one, possibly wrong, choice. We all fail to meet our standards sometimes, and our standards themselves may shift. Labelling people (real or ficticious) is self-righteous and hypocritical. But, if a character in a story is presented in a shallow and simplistic manner, labelling is almost inevitable.

nicely thought out idea. i could get behind that.

though i still think that a lot of people would dislike having a love interest cheat, only because there was a chance to cheat. because ultimately she is not loyal and the player only got "lucky" that he prevented it from happening. then i don't label her a cheater, she herself becomes one (or rather the general consensus elects she is). i think it should then still be a player driven interaction. like the love interest could have a corruption value, which you can increase by being supportive of her behaviour. and then when the scene happens, she cheats or doesn't depending on her corruption level.
though i guess that is too much of the normal problem for you already.

 

[reidanota]

the love interest could have a corruption value, which you can increase by being supportive of her behaviour. and then when the scene happens, she cheats or doesn't depending on her corruption level.

Yes, that works and I can see that being implemented in a more interesting way, but I'd still like to see a game that took all the stigma out of it. I maintain that if someone cheats, that doesn't make them corrupt. They're someone who cheated. I don't care about the general consensus... People in general are too judgemental, and if you get into group thinking, it's even worse. It's a responsible commercial decision for an author to cater to the general public, or specific well known groups within the public, but they don't have to. A good author will be able to make at least some people pause and think. Labelling is the most basic form of thought... To categorize objects based on their most relevant features. But it's something any pre-school kid can do. They can tell a horse from a dog, and, unfortunately, they can also tell the "bad kids" from the "good kids" (how many of us haven't been through the trauma of a lonely childhood, because we didn't want to get along with the kids that do "bad things")? An adult should be able to discern beyond the level of labelling. To base your opinion of a character in one single act in the story, as in cheating defines them as a cheat, and a bad person, is kinda lazy, like one issue voting. I understand that for many players, a beloved character who suddenly cheated would be a shock - isn't that the whole point of NTR? I get that part... What I don't get is the desire to be shocked and crushed emotionally up until the very end. But a betrayal of trust is just that, one betrayal of trust. Doesn't wipe out the whole prior relationship, not in my book. You (the MC) can decide you can't handle it, no problem. Or you can decide you can, and look at your LI as a person, someone whose actions do not stem directly from your own will. Challenging, but probably satisfying, if an author managed to guide us through such a process of going beyond what the collective subconscious wants you to think, say and do. That's the beauty of liberty. I'm not saying you can't be angry or that you have to forgive you LI - but I do say, if you're in control of your emotions, you should at least let them explain, perhaps even understand together where their actions stemmed from, and let each party make their own mind, without ultimatums or manipulation.

 

[Skep-tiker]

Yes, that works and I can see that being implemented in a more interesting way, but I'd still like to see a game that took all the stigma out of it. I maintain that if someone cheats, that doesn't make them corrupt. They're someone who cheated. I don't care about the general consensus... People in general are too judgemental, and if you get into group thinking, it's even worse. It's a responsible commercial decision for an author to cater to the general public, or specific well known groups within the public, but they don't have to. A good author will be able to make at least some people pause and think. Labelling is the most basic form of thought... To categorize objects based on their most relevant features. But it's something any pre-school kid can do. They can tell a horse from a dog, and, unfortunately, they can also tell the "bad kids" from the "good kids" (how many of us haven't been through the trauma of a lonely childhood, because we didn't want to get along with the kids that do "bad things")? An adult should be able to discern beyond the level of labelling. To base your opinion of a character in one single act in the story, as in cheating defines them as a cheat, and a bad person, is kinda lazy, like one issue voting. I understand that for many players, a beloved character who suddenly cheated would be a shock - isn't that the whole point of NTR? I get that part... What I don't get is the desire to be shocked and crushed emotionally up until the very end. But a betrayal of trust is just that, one betrayal of trust. Doesn't wipe out the whole prior relationship, not in my book. You (the MC) can decide you can't handle it, no problem. Or you can decide you can, and look at your LI as a person, someone whose actions do not stem directly from your own will. Challenging, but probably satisfying, if an author managed to guide us through such a process of going beyond what the collective subconscious wants you to think, say and do. That's the beauty of liberty. I'm not saying you can't be angry or that you have to forgive you LI - but I do say, if you're in control of your emotions, you should at least let them explain, perhaps even understand together where their actions stemmed from, and let each party make their own mind, without ultimatums or manipulation.

Im fine with cheating LI's, as long as there are realistic consequences, such as the possibility to kick them out of the door instead of having the choice to either forgive her, forgive her or forgive her.

 

[Jaga Telesin]

Im fine with cheating LI's, as long as there are realistic consequences, such as the possibility to kick them out of the door instead of having the choice to either forgive her, forgive her or forgive her.

This, x100.

Consequences for guys (MCs in particular) always seem to be FAR heavier than consequences for the girls (LIs). AVNs need a much more balanced playing field in terms of repercussions.