VN Ren'Py Abandoned Oath of Loyalty [Ch. 10] [Silk Ari/REV]

[Rory Smith]

You are still getting content as a patron. UHA is being worked on, made by the same people so you will get the same or better art style and writing since people improve skills over time. Oath Of loyalty stands on it's own as a complete experience with multiple endings. Most developers would have abandoned the game at version 0.3 if it even got past 0.1

It is like a movie studio that will do different movies and if one is a hit, then they work on the sequel. If not they work on a different movie franchise. Maybe the first movie will gain cult status as time passes and then may be worthy of a sequel later on, in which case, the studio return to that.

It is not holding anyone hostage, it is trying efforts into something else to see what works better. Just like nobody is obligated to support a project, nobody is obligated to work nearly for free. To put it in perspective Let's say the game is worked on for 90 hours a month for each person, the money coming in is 500 a month and there are 2 people working on the project. Split, that is about $2.70 an hour which is not even half the Federal minimum wage, even if it were just one developer it would barely be half that minimum wage, this is far from an extravagant amount. All this doesn't even count the cost for electricity for rendering, assets for 3d models and whatever hardware cost in case of hardware failure.

The goal being asked would amount to 11 dollars an hour which is still near minimum wage in most states.

It is not like the sequel is done and the developers are holding the game hostage. You are asking the developers to put another year of their time to work almost for free to work on a sequel.

Despite all that, Oath of loyalty has been worked on for over a year for way less than 300 a month according to Graphteon for most of that time. In the end it was still completed and wasn't abandoned.

So the choice for the developers is to work on a sequel and get the same results if the goal isn't met or try different things that until they get a better results. Each project is more than a year of effort trying to complete the game and not abandon it. Another year of time spent on a project that could be used for anything else.

Uha is harem game ???
If not, gonna ignore it. I don't want disaster endings

 

[m0us3r]

Actually OoL is a very nice game.
I couldn't support it financially, but I keep recommending it to people.

It has very interesting story and writing. Many pretty girls. Well done visuals, well crafted facial expressions.

Though sometimes it would be nice to use a bit more renders, more precisely corresponding with dialog lines.

And a very typical mistake nowadays: cryptic hidden parameters that block choices or routes.

For instance, nobody knows which "relation meter" values aim to, and what effect they would have if any.

I hope the devs would somehow improve that, and I hope to see Part 2 one day.

Thank you for good work, Silk_Ari et Co!

 

[Silk_Ari]

Actually OoL is a very nice game.
I couldn't support it financially, but I keep recommending it to people.

And we appreciate that so much and that gives us the motivation to keep going despite the financial situation as very well detailed by Hooli.

 

[Ninja of Death]

You are still getting content as a patron. UHA is being worked on, made by the same people so you will get the same or better art style and writing since people improve skills over time. Oath Of loyalty stands on it's own as a complete experience with multiple endings. Most developers would have abandoned the game at version 0.3 if it even got past 0.1

It is like a movie studio that will do different movies and if one is a hit, then they work on the sequel. If not they work on a different movie franchise. Maybe the first movie will gain cult status as time passes and then may be worthy of a sequel later on, in which case, the studio return to that.

It is not holding anyone hostage, it is trying efforts into something else to see what works better. Just like nobody is obligated to support a project, nobody is obligated to work nearly for free. To put it in perspective Let's say the game is worked on for 90 hours a month for each person, the money coming in is 500 a month and there are 2 people working on the project. Split, that is about $2.70 an hour which is not even half the Federal minimum wage, even if it were just one developer it would barely be half that minimum wage, this is far from an extravagant amount. All this doesn't even count the cost for electricity for rendering, assets for 3d models and whatever hardware cost in case of hardware failure.

The goal being asked would amount to 11 dollars an hour which is still near minimum wage in most states.

It is not like the sequel is done and the developers are holding the game hostage. You are asking the developers to put another year of their time to work almost for free to work on a sequel.

Despite all that, Oath of loyalty has been worked on for over a year for way less than 300 a month according to Graphteon for most of that time. In the end it was still completed and wasn't abandoned.

So the choice for the developers is to work on a sequel and get the same results if the goal isn't met or try different things that until they get a better results. Each project is more than a year of effort trying to complete the game and not abandon it. Another year of time spent on a project that could be used for anything else.

Not everyone is interested in OOL, and note it was abandoned when this was started. Seems this dev's MO is to abandon if it doesn't get enough patrons fast enough, which is a very bad sign that will get LESS patrons. Vast majority don't get enough to live on, more like just a little bonus money unless it gets very popular (abandoning games is VERY unpopular.) Different from movies- they don't demand a certain number of people buy tickets or they abandon the project before release. They release and if it's a flop it's a flop if it's a hit it's a hit. Even most hits don't get sequels.

 

[BGRW2020]

BoTh are disaster endings

Is there any good ending?

 

[Hooli Gali Marinzo]

Uha is harem game ???
If not, gonna ignore it. I don't want disaster endings

UHA will have a Harem Route.

 

[whichone]

Is there any good ending?

There are 2 endings.
1st is canon. You get it if you chose to let Jane leave when you're told about her wanting to go. Your Father gets shot, Bella kills the assassin and you move to take over, but have to work with Paulie, for now. Sets up for Chapter 2.
2nd is non canon, if you chose to have her stay. You, Jane and your sister run away from the family business.
Cut forward a few years and you have a daughter with Jane and are enjoying time with the 2 of them & your sister, when a hitman turns up and black screen with 3 shots.

Neither are "a disaster", that's just the usual whines of some entitled white knight who thinks that a game is shit, if not made to their own personal tastes.

The dev of The DeLuca Family did a good job laughing at them with his character,

Spoiler: Filius Canis

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[Fauxcest]

Boi I thoroughly enjoyed this. I hope part 2 comes to be.

 

[RoadWulf]

You are still getting content as a patron. UHA is being worked on, made by the same people so you will get the same or better art style and writing since people improve skills over time. Oath Of loyalty stands on it's own as a complete experience with multiple endings. Most developers would have abandoned the game at version 0.3 if it even got past 0.1

It is like a movie studio that will do different movies and if one is a hit, then they work on the sequel. If not they work on a different movie franchise. Maybe the first movie will gain cult status as time passes and then may be worthy of a sequel later on, in which case, the studio return to that.

It is not holding anyone hostage, it is trying efforts into something else to see what works better. Just like nobody is obligated to support a project, nobody is obligated to work nearly for free. To put it in perspective Let's say the game is worked on for 90 hours a month for each person, the money coming in is 500 a month and there are 2 people working on the project. Split, that is about $2.70 an hour which is not even half the Federal minimum wage, even if it were just one developer it would barely be half that minimum wage, this is far from an extravagant amount. All this doesn't even count the cost for electricity for rendering, assets for 3d models and whatever hardware cost in case of hardware failure.

The goal being asked would amount to 11 dollars an hour which is still near minimum wage in most states.

It is not like the sequel is done and the developers are holding the game hostage. You are asking the developers to put another year of their time to work almost for free to work on a sequel.

Despite all that, Oath of loyalty has been worked on for over a year for way less than 300 a month according to Graphteon for most of that time. In the end it was still completed and wasn't abandoned.

So the choice for the developers is to work on a sequel and get the same results if the goal isn't met or try different things that until they get a better results. Each project is more than a year of effort trying to complete the game and not abandon it. Another year of time spent on a project that could be used for anything else.

There's a problem with you comparison though, namely that Movie Studios are backed by Producers and companies with money that sponsor the film and expect a return on their investment. That's not what's going on here. At most what your investors get for their money is access to the movie as it's being produced. It's not like they see money back on future sales. Secondly, you're talking about wages, and wages are an expectation of a job working for a boss. But you're self employed when you work on a game. The people who subscribe to you are not obligated to meet what you consider to be a livable wage, they are donating their money in belief of your project.

So again, while it's sad that you aren't at the point where this can be your full time job, it's not the responsibility of your players and patrons to make it so. Donations are not obligations.

It works like this:
You create a game because you want to do it, you ask for money to help fund the creation and earn some money for yourself, but the decision to create it in the first place was yours. So there was no one in the background with money saying "Make this for us".

Which is the opposite of how big game studios or movie studios work. There, the artists are not in control of the project and they're paid by someone else to create it.

You have to stop thinking that you somehow deserve minimum wage for your projects. You are not employed by the Patrons. They don't owe you a set amount. You should be grateful you get anything at all.

Lets look at it from the other side of the coin:
The consumer.

If a patron donates 10 dollars a month to you every month, within 7 months of development they could have bought a major title game from a triple A developer. If your game takes 2 years or more to develop, that's over 240 dollars of their money they've spent on a SINGLE UNFINISHED GAME.

Because not only are they paying to play your game, they're paying the development costs as well.

So when you say you need to reach a certain "per month" amount before starting work on a project, yes, you are holding it hostage for more money. Money no one is obligated to give you and you are setting a restriction on a project only you and your partner are responsible for creating.

If you want to create it, do it. If you don't, then don't.

Do not put it on the players to bribe you enough to do it. If you want to create it, then you'll do it on your own or not at all. It's not up to us, it's up to you.

 

[GregIsLove]

There's a problem with you comparison though, namely that Movie Studios are backed by Producers and companies with money that sponsor the film and expect a return on their investment. That's not what's going on here. At most what your investors get for their money is access to the movie as it's being produced. It's not like they see money back on future sales. Secondly, you're talking about wages, and wages are an expectation of a job working for a boss. But you're self employed when you work on a game. The people who subscribe to you are not obligated to meet what you consider to be a livable wage, they are donating their money in belief of your project.

So again, while it's sad that you aren't at the point where this can be your full time job, it's not the responsibility of your players and patrons to make it so. Donations are not obligations.

It works like this:
You create a game because you want to do it, you ask for money to help fund the creation and earn some money for yourself, but the decision to create it in the first place was yours. So there was no one in the background with money saying "Make this for us".

Which is the opposite of how big game studios or movie studios work. There, the artists are not in control of the project and they're paid by someone else to create it.

You have to stop thinking that you somehow deserve minimum wage for your projects. You are not employed by the Patrons. They don't owe you a set amount. You should be grateful you get anything at all.

Lets look at it from the other side of the coin:
The consumer.

If a patron donates 10 dollars a month to you every month, within 7 months of development they could have bought a major title game from a triple A developer. If your game takes 2 years or more to develop, that's over 240 dollars of their money they've spent on a SINGLE UNFINISHED GAME.

Because not only are they paying to play your game, they're paying the development costs as well.

So when you say you need to reach a certain "per month" amount before starting work on a project, yes, you are holding it hostage for more money. Money no one is obligated to give you and you are setting a restriction on a project only you and your partner are responsible for creating.

If you want to create it, do it. If you don't, then don't.

Do not put it on the players to bribe you enough to do it. If you want to create it, then you'll do it on your own or not at all. It's not up to us, it's up to you.

Im going to refer to you as Father RoadWulf after preaching like that my guy.. daaaaaamn Could not have said it better myself.

 

[m0us3r]

There's a problem with you

Im going to refer to you as

...as thieves! All those game devs stole the best years of my life! They must pay me for damages!
And all who donates to them, and who makes BBSs, usergroups, emules, torrents, game forums etc. are assistants to international crime networks!
Brothers! And women too! If you fight for justice, send me Trapani's email address, I have a plan.

 

[GregIsLove]

...as thieves! All those game devs stole the best years of my life! They must pay me for damages!
And all who donates to them, and who makes BBSs, usergroups, emules, torrents, game forums etc. are assistants to international crime networks!
Brothers! And women too! If you fight for justice, send me Trapani's email address, I have a plan.

The story has at least 2 major faults:

Spoiler: 1, 2

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So why was Vincent such an idiot? A first grader would act wiser.

I think the story should be rewritten a bit, at least in those two places.

(3) Sex with one girl shouldn't prevent from sex with another, even in a short timespan. I'm not a sex machine (though maybe I was 30-40 years ago), but even at my age I can fuck pretty girls twice in a row.

You are literally coming here every time someone leave negatives feedback just to troll them and defend the decision of the dev putting a 1.5k paywall on a game that in your own words "Has 2 major faults, The mc is an idiot and the story needs to be rewritten" Maybe your 30-40 years of wisdom could help my poor young brain understand that?
You know this forum is for all feedback not just the feedback you agree with right? and if you don't agree then why waste your time quoting it just to look like an jackass... Others are aloud an opinion.

 

[Silk_Ari]

This argument is so ridiculous. Hostage, bribe, long winded posts that make sense only in alternate reality. What do you think a Kickstarter is for example? No one is obligated to back a kickstarter yet people do in the hopes it will reach a goal to see that project to fruition often with NOTHING developed. Not only did we produce a completed game and showed people what we can do we're still making content and producing a game. If people don't think we can reach that goal, then DONT SUPPORT US. We're asking our patrons to support our WORK. Not just OOL but also UHA. We're not twiddling out thumbs laughing maniacally while the cash rakes in... WE'RE WORKING. So support US as a studio is what we're saying. I mean, I don't know how many ,ore times I have to repeat this. In order for us to work on 2 yes 2 READ 2 games at the same time, it takes a major amount of effort on our part to do so. We can't do it without that amount of support. God, if you don't think we can reach that goal, again DON'T SUPPORT US.

And that's all I have to say about that.... EVER. Done. Finished.

*Edit: Also it doesn't mean that OOL part 2 will never come to be. When we finish UHA we most probably will get back to working on part 2 of OOL. We're not giving an ultimatum, we're saying again, we can't work on 2 projects at the same time. If you support us you will get OOL part 2 faster.

 

[RoadWulf]

This argument is so ridiculous. Hostage, bribe, long winded posts that make sense only in alternate reality. What do you think a Kickstarter is for example? No one is obligated to back a kickstarter yet people do in the hopes it will reach a goal to see that project to fruition often with NOTHING developed. Not only did we produce a completed game and showed people what we can do we're still making content and producing a game. If people don't think we can reach that goal, then DONT SUPPORT US. We're asking our patrons to support our WORK. Not just OOL but also UHA. We're not twiddling out thumbs laughing maniacally while the cash rakes in... WE'RE WORKING. So support US as a studio is what we're saying. I mean, I don't know how many ,ore times I have to repeat this. In order for us to work on 2 yes 2 READ 2 games at the same time, it takes a major amount of effort on our part to do so. We can't do it without that amount of support. God, if you don't think we can reach that goal, again DON'T SUPPORT US.

And that's all I have to say about that.... EVER. Done. Finished.

Don't put a project behind a wall then. Because that's exactly how it comes across. "We won't work on this until we get this amount".

No one expects you to work on two games at once. If you want to put OOL on hold, do it. Go back to UHA. But don't make it look like it has to reach 2000 a month before you'll even consider doing it, which is what it currently looks like.

Maybe you didn't mean to make it look like that. But it does. Reword your Goal Post to make it more clear. Something.
Personally I think OOL is the better project, even though I did like UHA while it was coming out. The deeper plot beyond the incest model was rather interesting.

 

[whichone]

Don't put a project behind a wall then. Because that's exactly how it comes across. "We won't work on this until we get this amount".

Firstly, it may "come across" like that, to you. This does not make it ipso facto. Different people see things in different ways.

I see your point, but there is quite a big difference between "We won't work on this until we get X amount" & "We are unable to work on this without reaching X amount."
One is, effectively, a demand. The other seems to be an explanation.
The former, I would agree, strikes of extortion. But I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the latter "holding people hostage".

End of the day, no-one is being forced to pay. It's the individual consumer's decision to financially support, or not.
Agree with the stated target, or not. Continue to financially support them, or not.
It's the consumer's money, so it's the consumer's choice.
Is it not?

To be fair, the very Patreon model says that if you do not pay, you will not receive the update.
Sites like this enable us to circumvent & ignore those terms.

Which leads me to: Why is this conversation taking place on a pirate site, where the vast majority are playing the game without paying?
Is it intentionally ironic?
Are you a patron? If so, I would imagine gaining support from other patrons for your opinion might have some weight with the dev/studio.
But gathering support from non-paying pirates... Probably not so much.

 

[BGRW2020]

Can you save Donna, and is it ok to defend her and keep her as a co-host

 

[whichone]

Can you save Donna, and is it ok to defend her and keep her as a co-host

I believe so, yes. Defending her and keeping her as co-host had no negative consequences for my game.
If you go with the canon ending, you can make it so that she gets taken, by Mario, to a safehouse. She is set-up to return in chapter 2, but does not return in this installment.

 

[Gellidus]

Which leads me to: Why is this conversation taking place on a pirate site, where the vast majority are playing the game without paying?

Because it's the internet, where people believe they are entitled to everything the way they want it, and if it doesn't happen that way its a personnal attack against them.

 

[whichone]

Because it's the internet, where people believe they are entitled to everything the way they want it, and if it doesn't happen that way its a personnal attack against them.

lol I just find it amusing to read through a long post presenting an argument, which totally undoes itself in one sentence:
"Money no one is obligated to give you"
If no-one is obliged to give the money, then it's obviously not a hostage situation.

We really should not need to explain the fundamental difference between absolute freedom of choice & being held to ransom.

and if you don't agree then why waste your time quoting it just to look like an jackass... Others are aloud an opinion.

But he's not *allowed* one?
Why is it "wasting his time" to present his positive opinion in response, when, according to this, it's perfectly fine for others to present their negative ones?
I'm sensing quite a large amount of hypocrisy, here.
This is a forum. If anyone presents their opinion, positive or negative, others are perfectly entiteld to contest it.
If you do not want your opinion contested, either make it incontestable, or do not present it to the public.

If one chooses to present an opinion, they have no grounds for complaint when someone else contests it.

 

[GregIsLove]

lol I just find it amusing to read through a long post presenting an argument, which totally undoes itself in one sentence:
"Money no one is obligated to give you"
If no-one is obliged to give the money, then it's obviously not a hostage situation.

We really should not need to explain the fundamental difference between absolute freedom of choice & being held to ransom.

But he's not *allowed* one?
Why is it "wasting his time" to present his positive opinion in response, when, according to this, it's perfectly fine for others to present their negative ones?
I'm sensing quite a large amount of hypocrisy, here.
This is a forum. If anyone presents their opinion, positive or negative, others are perfectly entiteld to contest it.
If you do not want your opinion contested, either make it incontestable, or do not present it to the public.

So this is a positive opinion in your eyes?

...as thieves! All those game devs stole the best years of my life! They must pay me for damages!
And all who donates to them, and who makes BBSs, usergroups, emules, torrents, game forums etc. are assistants to international crime networks!
Brothers! And women too! If you fight for justice, send me Trapani's email address, I have a plan.

Yeah mate that totally wasn't a troll reply... did you even read it before you wrote that message? And I like how you guys keep referring to this as a pirate site as if you are somehow exempt from that. Just because that's all this site is to you does not make it so... F95 is a FORUM were most of the games posted here are posted by the developer himself to drum up support for the project his is PASSIONATE about making AND most of the patreons the games get COME from this pirate site so maybe you ought to show a little more respect. The reason most people are angry with this is not because he is "holding a metaphorical gun to someone's head" its because it shows this is first and foremost a JOB to him not a PASSION. You don't just come here and drum up support in the ten folds when your one and only previous project was abandoned so you could work on a game that came out as "average at best"(IMO) And I really don't understand this argument with UHA.. It nice to support a dev and all his project but in reality that's not how it works. that's why most devs here create a separate patreon page for each game they make. every patreon that you have that was here for OOL only and has no interest in UHA is basically stuck paying for air for the next year in hopes their support might put a dent in that hefty goal of yours and convince you to work on OOL again and whilst none of them are OBLIGATED to do so.. in your posts on patreon and here, not once did you mention that OOL would return after UHA regardless of weather you meet the goal or not.

These are literally your own words from the post...

And now it's done... or is it?

Well that depends on support.

So in your post not only did you fail to mention OOL would return regardless of support(wonder why you left that bit out eh) but in fact you alluded to the exact opposite leaving two choices for anyone who is hear for OOL only
Choice#1: Remove support and expect OOL never to return
Choice#2: Keep support a dev for a game that isnt seeing any work put into it for the foreseeable until it hits said amount of support.
and whilst no one is OBLIGATED to pay they feel OBLIGATED because its the only chance to see a game they enjoy make it anywhere. Bottom line you are giving ultimatums and strong arming anyone who is here for OOL only into paying for UHA content in hopes you one day switch back to OOL.