VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[PervySageKem]

Genuine question, how does the game put us in the shoes of Ian over Lena?

The game literally starts with Ian's POV and not with Lena's POV. Additionally, most players of these games are male, which further makes us consider him the "Main Protoganist", and Lena the second protagonist.

It would be disingenuous to say the opposite. We "instrumentalize" Lena, going for the routes we go with her for selfish reasons (even if they are bad for Lena). At the same time, we naturally tend to make the best choices for Ian and try to make Lena be the best gf possible for him.

None of this is bad, it's actually good. But it does mean that the things that worked for GGGB may not work for ORS.

You didn't like GGGB then?

In GGGB you were always on Ashley's shoes and only Ashley's shoes. The perspective is exclusively hers. You naturally get immersed and you are free to make choices

I'll give a more concrete example:

I didn't give a fuck about Ashley's boyfriend, I cheated on him, fucked his Dad, fucked whoever I wanted with no remorse. On GGGB, I just wanted to have fun through Ashley's POV.

While playing ORS, while playing has Lena, I avoided all content that didn't involve Ian. Because I "wasn't Lena". I was Ian, just controlling what Lena was doing and I wanted her all for myself.

It's not that hard to understand, tbh. But not everyone gets immersed in stories, it's pretty rare.

 

[BloodyMares]

You didn't like GGGB then?

I doubt the majority of GGGB fans (men) played GGGB for relatability. As a general rule, guys play female protagonist adult games for the corruption and as much sex scenes as possible. The over-the-top tone of GGGB encouraged that compared to how limited Good Ashley's opportunities were.

ORS on the other hand, with the more realistic tone (and playable Ian for balance), reinforces the idea that you should be more attentive to your choices, and it immerses you enough that you would want to care for the protagonists and wish for them to succeed in their endeavors. Just look at how universally despised Robert is, even though he kinda acts as early-game Arthur-lite, the corrupting/liberating force for Lena that gives you a lot of sexy content. And yet, people ignore him despite all that, because they can't believe that any person in Lena's shoes would have self-esteem so low that they would so readily jump Robert's bones. But that could also be the factor where they just want Lena to be a faithful waifu to Ian instead of acting like an independent person.

IMO, if Ian wasn't a playable character, the majority of comments here would be negative, saying that this game is boring compared to GGGB because the realistic tone gets in the way of their desire to turn Lena into an ultimate brainless slut. For now, they're a minority because most of the players find the experience immersive enough to enjoy it through both POV's.

 

[PervySageKem]

I doubt the majority of GGGB fans (men) played GGGB for relatability. As a general rule, guys play female protagonist adult games for the corruption and as much sex scenes as possible. The over-the-top tone of GGGB encouraged that compared to how limited Good Ashley's opportunities were.

ORS on the other hand, with the more realistic tone (and playable Ian for balance), reinforces the idea that you should be more attentive to your choices, and it immerses you enough that you would want to care for the protagonists and wish for them to succeed in their endeavors. Just look at how universally despised Robert is, even though he kinda acts as early-game Arthur-lite, the corrupting/liberating force for Lena that gives you a lot of sexy content. And yet, people ignore him despite all that, because they can't believe that any person in Lena's shoes would have self-esteem so low that they would so readily jump Robert's bones. But that could also be the factor where they just want Lena to be a faithful waifu to Ian instead of acting like an independent person.

IMO, if Ian wasn't a playable character, the majority of comments here would be negative, saying that this game is boring compared to GGGB because the realistic tone gets in the way of their desire to turn Lena into an ultimate brainless slut. For now, they're a minority because most of the players find the experience immersive enough to enjoy it through both POV's.

Exactly, very well put. In GGGB there wasn't any incentive to go for the Good Ashley route (the braindead boyfriend literally went to Africa, if you stayed faithful what were you gonna do? Wait until the end of the game?) + the corruption/slutty angle was really well done and really freaking hot. Ashley was a shy girl that wanted to grow out of her shell and, with the wrong people around her, she'd go full slut.

Lena has an already very established past (too established, pretty sure next patch Eva is gonna tell us she's a 10 year carreer pornstar). Because of a very well established personality, tt doesn't make much sense for her to suddenly go full hoe (that's why Eva added in later patches retcons that she might've been more freaky all along, even if there is no basis for it - Eva wanted to make it more confortable/reasonable to make those choices).

Even forgetting the Ian angle, I never felt like it made sense to hook-up with Axel (especially), Robert, Mike, or Jeremy. It just isn't the real Lena.

Can you geniunely say a Lena that would fall in love with Ian could fuck Robert, Mike, or Louise? She would need to be a completely different person from one scene to another.

 

[BloodyMares]

Additionally, most players of these games are male, which further makes us consider him the "Main Protoganist", and Lena the second protagonist.

Is it me, or it sounds sexist? I get where you're coming from (Ian spoke to my soul the first scene he appeared in) but the phrasing could be better.

I didn't give a fuck about Ashley's boyfriend, I cheated on him, fucked his Dad, fucked whoever I wanted with no remorse. On GGGB, I just wanted to have fun through Ashley's POV.

So, what you're saying is, you didn't care about Ashley. You didn't care about her parents divorcing (they're not your parents), didn't care about her best friend spiraling out of control and making very questionable decisions (it's not your best friend), didn't care about her grades (but she would if she was a hard-working student all this time), you didn't care about her emotional pain caused by Eric's selfish desire to leave, you didn't care about her money problems (making her sell her body is the first instinct, because it's not your body).

Isn't it a boring way to play the female protagonist POV? Didn't you want to open your mind enough and make the choices for Ashley as if her life was your own? Or as if she was your sister / best friend that you cared and empathized for?

What I get from this, is that you just can't roleplay as female protagonists, but it's not the problem of the game's design but a purely subjective incompatibility with female characters that require empathy to play AS, not WITH.

 

[dolfe67]

Even forgetting the Ian angle, I never felt like it made sense to hook-up with Axel (especially), Robert, Mike, or Jeremy. It just isn't the real Lena.

And yet she was in a relationship with Axel before the start of the game. Plus there is no "real" Lena.

Though I understand it's not for everyone's taste, probably the anti-ntr crowd for the most. I'm not pro-ntr but I don't mind it.

And without Ian playable, it's GGGB 2 the reboot imo

 

[DavDR]

I doubt the majority of GGGB fans (men) played GGGB for relatability. As a general rule, guys play female protagonist adult games for the corruption and as much sex scenes as possible. The over-the-top tone of GGGB encouraged that compared to how limited Good Ashley's opportunities were.

ORS on the other hand, with the more realistic tone (and playable Ian for balance), reinforces the idea that you should be more attentive to your choices, and it immerses you enough that you would want to care for the protagonists and wish for them to succeed in their endeavors. Just look at how universally despised Robert is, even though he kinda acts as early-game Arthur-lite, the corrupting/liberating force for Lena that gives you a lot of sexy content. And yet, people ignore him despite all that, because they can't believe that any person in Lena's shoes would have self-esteem so low that they would so readily jump Robert's bones. But that could also be the factor where they just want Lena to be a faithful waifu to Ian instead of acting like an independent person.

IMO, if Ian wasn't a playable character, the majority of comments here would be negative, saying that this game is boring compared to GGGB because the realistic tone gets in the way of their desire to turn Lena into an ultimate brainless slut. For now, they're a minority because most of the players find the experience immersive enough to enjoy it through both POV's.

This shit that goes around the internet that male players can only identify with male protagonist has absolutely no basis in reality.

I can read a novel by a female author and with a gay or female protagonist and still identify with the character, because I have an imagination. The same goes for the MC's race, nationality, rather they are a human being, and etc. Because if you use your imagination you can actually identify with someone who isn't exactly like you.

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

I have the impression that people play the game and identify with the characters in various ways, often independent of gender. I can’t say I self-insert any more with Ian than with Lena, even though I’m a male, and I don’t have any more problems going behind Ian’s back when playing as Lena than the opposite.

But it’s true that the double protagonist system makes things different, as there’s two persons to care for instead of one. I get the impression that a good amount of the male players either play Lena as promiscious as possible (like the usual female corruption games, as BloodyMares mentioned), or play her as loyal to Ian as possible (because they identify with Ian, at least to a certain degree).

It could’ve been an interesting topic for a Patreon poll: What character do people identify with while playing? Eva already had a poll about everyone’s preferred character, but that’s not exactly the same.

If Lena having sex with Robert, Mike or Louise is a prerequisite for the Lena/Ian/Holly relationship, I agree that it doesn’t make completely sense. But I don’t think that’s a given: To me the "experiment together" choice seems to be about being exclusive emotionally, but at the same time giving them the chance to have sex with other people — just for the sex. Their mutual Holly path could just as well happen in their exclusive relationship: That would make Holly the exception, because they all realize they have feelings for each other and want to act on it together, instead of Holly just being one of a string of people joining them in the bedroom.

 

[BloodyMares]

Can you geniunely say a Lena that would fall in love with Ian could fuck Robert, Mike, or Louise? She would need to be a completely different person from one scene to another.

Robert? My Lena was open to give him the chance (2 actually) per Ivy's advice which he blew spectacularly by being an inpatient douche and calling Lena a nun for refusing to spread her legs for him on second date and when both were lame. Realistically, he was lucky enough that Lena found him attractive enough to kiss him. Otherwise he would head straight into friendzone (or enemy zone).

Mike, no. I get Eva's explanation for Lena's logic, but that logic is twisted as hell and sociopathic.

Louise, hell yeah! She could act cranky/judgmental, sure, but mostly she's a kind and (overly)affectionate girl. Why can Lena feel protective of Holly but not of Louise? Yeah, my Lena totally slept with Louise because she couldn't leave her friend to suffer from her break-up alone. Ideally, I would just let them cuddle without going all the way, but as it is, I feel like Louise awakened some gentle and protective feelings within her (based on how the scene was written in Chapter 5). And yes, while dating Ian, because as an adult you want to keep your options open, especially when your heart was broken fairly recently. For that same reason, Ian was hooking up with Alison because she was open and said she wasn't looking for a relationship (Ian is a bit clueless on subtle tells). But after Ian and Lena become official, then yeah, it becomes complicated and both of them needed to decide what they want with Alison / Louise.

In my path, Ian and Lena are taking it slow, starting with an open relationship, while they would try to explain the situation to either of the girls. Alison would probably lean more into Jeremy as her main hook-up partner due to Ian's emotional unavailability, but Louise I don't know, as long as Lena keeps playing with her, she might be down to keep exploring their bond, maybe occasionally in a threesome with Ian.

 

[BloodyMares]

This shit that goes around the internet that male players can only identify with male protagonist has absolutely no basis in reality.

I can read a novel by a female author and with a gay or female protagonist and still identify with the character, because I have an imagination. The same goes for the MC's race, nationality, rather they are a human being, and etc. Because if you use your imagination you can actually identify with someone who isn't exactly like you.

100%. Stories allow to experience life differently and they require from you confidence in yourself, in your gender, in your sexuality etc. And simply see past those superficial traits. Granted, I wouldn't be able to play erotic games from gay male POV, because it isn't what turns me on. But having a non-sexual story with female/gay main characters, yeah, absolutely. If I could relate to mutated turtles eating pizza when I was a kid, I don't think there's any type of character that would prevent me from living the story from their POV. Unless that character made consistently dumb decisions or was a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, but that's just bad writing.

 

[PervySageKem]

Is it me, or it sounds sexist? I get where you're coming from (Ian spoke to my soul the first scene he appeared in) but the phrasing could be better.

So, what you're saying is, you didn't care about Ashley. You didn't care about her parents divorcing (they're not your parents), didn't care about her best friend spiraling out of control and making very questionable decisions (it's not your best friend), didn't care about her grades (but she would if she was a hard-working student all this time), you didn't care about her emotional pain caused by Eric's selfish desire to leave, you didn't care about her money problems (making her sell her body is the first instinct, because it's not your body).

Isn't it a boring way to play the female protagonist POV? Didn't you want to open your mind enough and make the choices for Ashley as if her life was your own? Or as if she was your sister / best friend that you cared and empathized for?

What I get from this, is that you just can't roleplay as female protagonists, but it's not the problem of the game's design but a purely subjective incompatibility with female characters that require empathy to play AS, not WITH.

Hey, hey, hey! Wtf is this judgement coming from man?

I didn't ONLY do those things, I played several different routes. My main playthorugh was a Good Girl Route that turned Jack into a good guy and had a great relationship with him (and had a side hustle with Eva as friends exploring).

What I was saying there is that I could play the corruption routes without feeling bad because there was no Male MC with which I was more related too. You just picked up my post and interpreted in the worst way possible in order to put words in my mouth I never said and judge me as a person. Wtf is wrong with you?

I immersed myself completely with Ashley. I played pratically every possible route in GGGB and I enjoyed her character extensively.

The only thing I'm trying to fucking say here is: by putting a Male MC that appears first who you play the POV first you naturally become more immersed in his POV, making him the main protagonist for yourself (wtf does that have to do with sexism? can I not consider him my main protagonist just because he's a guy? is it that abnormal that maybe there is a bigger tendency to relate with people of your gender?)

Dude, you made some good posts but you snorted some crack for this response.

 

[PervySageKem]

This shit that goes around the internet that male players can only identify with male protagonist has absolutely no basis in reality.

I can read a novel by a female author and with a gay or female protagonist and still identify with the character, because I have an imagination. The same goes for the MC's race, nationality, rather they are a human being, and etc. Because if you use your imagination you can actually identify with someone who isn't exactly like you.

I never fucking said that you CANT identify with the female protagonist. I said you have an HIGHER TENDENCY to relate with the protagonist of your genger if there are two protagonists.

 

[lipe2410]

immerses you enough that you would want to care for the protagonists and wish for them to succeed in their endeavors.

This is the key thing of this game to me. I care so much about Ian and Lena. And that's why i don't wanna they become someone i wouldn't like. I'm not into corruption kink and this already close most of the path in Lena's side. And i don't like asshole chad Ian wich also close some fan-favorite paths in his side to me. But i also like, very much, naughty stuff so i don't wanna Lena being like a prude just waiting for Ian, nor Ian as a insecure dumb who just watch other people get laid. I'm all for balance, where both Ian and Lena exploring their sexuality (sometimes together, sometimes with other person) but always in a positve way for them. That's one of the reasons i like so much Ian/Alison (without Ian being a asshole with her) and Lena/Louise (despite Lena doesn't realy caring about her). And i can make Lena hook up with Robert in the beginnig just to give her some release from all the crap she have to endure right in the start of the story, but soon her relationship with Ian really starts, she have no problem in ignore Robert and give Ian much more priority. I just hope that all of this pay off down the line with much more lewd stuff and with Ian and Lena become a hell of a powerfull couple. Two succesfull person whith a healthy and very naughty sexual life. Lost most of the naughty stuff just because you did'nt engage in the "dark" routes is my greatest fear in ORS right now.

 

[PervySageKem]

This is the key thing of this game to me. I care so much about Ian and Lena. And that's why i don't wanna they become someone i wouldn't like. I'm not into corruption kink and this already close most of the path in Lena's side. And i don't like asshole chad Ian wich also close some fan-favorite paths in his side to me. But i also like, very much, naughty stuff so i don't wanna being like a prude just waiting for Ian, nor Ian as a insecure dumb who just watch other people get laid. I'm all for balance, where both Ian and Lena exploring their sexuality (sometimes together, sometimes with other person) but always in a positve way for them. That's one of the reasons i like so much Ian/Alison (without Ian being a asshole with her) and Lena/Louise (despite Lena doesn't realy caring about her). And i can make Lena hook up with Robert in the beginnig just to give her some release from all the crap she have to endure right in the start of the story, but soon her relationship with Ian really starts, she have no problem in ignore Robert and give Ian much more priority. I just hope that all of this pay off down the line with much more lewd stuff and with Ian and Lena become a hell of a powerfull couple. Two succesfull person whith a healthy and very naughty sexual life. Lost most of the naughty stuff just because you did'nt engage in the "dark" routes is my greatest fear in ORS right now.

Yes, I also fear the dark routes are the ones with the most content and will continue to have more in future updates.

I just want Ian and Lena to be happy together and maybe have fun with one other girl, if both of them like her. It's highly doubtful it'll be my favorite (Cindy), so if it can't be her it'll be nobody... Which might be a pretty boring playthorugh, but whatever xD

 

[lipe2410]

Yes, I also fear the dark routes are the ones with the most content and will continue to have more in future updates.

I just want Ian and Lena to be happy together and maybe have fun with one other girl, if both of them like her. It's highly doubtful it'll be my favorite (Cindy), so if it can't be her it'll be nobody... Which might be a pretty boring playthorugh, but whatever xD

I mean, i don't have any issue if there's paths where Lena is corrupted by Seymour, Axel or anyone else. I simply don't play and wish for whom like these kink enjoy and have fun. I just hope that the "wholesome" path that i like can be naughty with his own kinks as well

 

[DavDR]

This is the key thing of this game to me. I care so much about Ian and Lena. And that's why i don't wanna they become someone i wouldn't like. I'm not into corruption kink and this already close most of the path in Lena's side. And i don't like asshole chad Ian wich also close some fan-favorite paths in his side to me. But i also like, very much, naughty stuff so i don't wanna Lena being like a prude just waiting for Ian, nor Ian as a insecure dumb who just watch other people get laid. I'm all for balance, where both Ian and Lena exploring their sexuality (sometimes together, sometimes with other person) but always in a positve way for them. That's one of the reasons i like so much Ian/Alison (without Ian being a asshole with her) and Lena/Louise (despite Lena doesn't realy caring about her). And i can make Lena hook up with Robert in the beginnig just to give her some release from all the crap she have to endure right in the start of the story, but soon her relationship with Ian really starts, she have no problem in ignore Robert and give Ian much more priority. I just hope that all of this pay off down the line with much more lewd stuff and with Ian and Lena become a hell of a powerfull couple. Two succesfull person whith a healthy and very naughty sexual life. Lost most of the naughty stuff just because you did'nt engage in the "dark" routes is my greatest fear in ORS right now.

Why wouldn't you like a Lena who liked sex? I'm sure that you enjoy having sex with women, why can't women enjoy having sex with other men?

The whole problem with 'corruption' in these games is that it assume's that Women are 'pure' to begin with. That's not the way that the world is made. Women enjoy sex too.

 

[PervySageKem]

I mean, i don't have any issue if there's paths where Lena is corrupted by Seymour, Axel or anyone else. I simply don't and wish for whom like these kink enjoy and have. I just hope that the "wholesome" path that i like can be naughty with his own kinks as well

Yes, I don't mind them existing, everyone has a right to have their kinks satisfied. There should be a dark/corruption path.

I just think that the wholesome path should have the same amount of content.

 

[PervySageKem]

Why wouldn't you like a Lena who liked sex? I'm sure that you enjoy having sex with women, why can't women enjoy having sex with other men?

The whole problem with 'corruption' in these games is that it assume's that Women are 'pure' to begin with. That's not the way that the world is made. Women enjoy sex too.

Yes, women enjoy sex and they should. That doesn't mean that breaking their personal morals and the trust of other people isn't "corruption".

 

[lipe2410]

Why wouldn't you like a Lena who liked sex? I'm sure that you enjoy having sex with women, why can't women enjoy having sex with other men?

I enjoy that Lena like have sex. That's why i like her content with Louise where she can discover i dom side that she didn't knew she had before. Or even with Robert where she can act more dominat too in the later scenes. I'm just no into in make her submit to guys who already shown that are completly assholes imho.
Edit: and that's why i'm happy with Stan rework and will definetly play his path as Lena when the revised ch. 1-9 release.

 

[BloodyMares]

I didn't ONLY do those things, I played several different routes. My main playthorugh was a Good Girl Route that turned Jack into a good guy and had a great relationship with him (and had a side hustle with Eva as friends exploring).

Okay, my bad. You confused me with how you only spoke about playing Ashley as an immortal slut as the main focus of your point, so I reached a different conclusion. I apologize for this unjust judgment, let's calm down.

The only thing I'm trying to fucking say here is: by putting a Male MC that appears first who you play the POV first you naturally become more immersed in his POV, making him the main protagonist for yourself (wtf does that have to do with sexism? can I not consider him my main protagonist just because he's a guy? is it that abnormal that maybe there is a bigger tendency to relate with people of your gender?)

Personally, I find gender as a non-factor for immersing myself with certain characters. I don't relate to Ian more because he's a guy, I relate to him because he's a struggling underdog with great aspirations, has a group of friends that are kinda drifting apart which hits close to home for me, and he's kinda a dorky nerd overthinking everything which gives him charm. And the heartbreak is always relatable, too. Say, if the genders were switched, and Holly was in Ian's place (they're fairly similar minus the gym and not having any friends), but in Lena's place was Robert (if he wasn't such a douche) or Mike, then I would relate to Holly a lot more simply because her character traits I find in myself, but seeing those outgoing playboys who had too much on their shoulders would make them compelling characters, but I wouldn't relate to them to the same extent.

 

[DavDR]

Yes, women enjoy sex and they should. That doesn't mean that breaking their personal morals and the trust of other people isn't "corruption".

Oh, what is her personal morals, I don't think that was ever defined in the game. And whose trust is she breaking?

In my game Lena is seeing both Robert and Ian. She's not looking for a serious relationship, having just come out of one, but she decides to take her friend Ivy's advice and have some fun. She's also like 98% of the population and not interested in her own sex, with Louise or any other woman. Being intelligent she also avoids Jeremy, Seymour, and Axel like the plague.