VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[SharkVampire]

1. What is the point of the conversation with the mother in the beginning of the game? Why is it so important to have dialogue options during this conversation?

2. How is the MC not a submissive masochist if it's his FRIEND who constantly tries to get him laid? If this game is supposedly for the dominant minded player, it would've made more sense for our character to be like Killian. The MC's behavior, his mindset, it's PURE masochist submissive, yet the game tries to portray him as a dominant alpha. It doesn't work, but 145 five star reviews prove me wrong, I guess? Killian represents the real dominant alpha mindset. He's social, he's a good wingman, he knows how to get women. Our character's age and his lack of experience with women pretty much solidify him as a beta male, a submissive masochist, yet we can't play as a submissive masochist in the game? What?

Okay, so Killian, our buddy is the alpha male, and we're the beta male. Got it. Without him, we'd never get laid. Great premise for a game where the MC is supposedly the dominant.

3. MC is a mama's boy. IT SHOWS THIS IN THE START OF THE GAME. Another sign he's a beta male, and would make the perfect submissive masochist slave boy who gets pissed on by all the dominant women, INCLUDING HIS OWN MOTHER. I can't believe the mother hasn't forced his son to start licking her pussy while she smokes a cigerette. Meanwhile, she calls up Killian to come over and fuck her.

This talking about alpha's and beta's always amused me, I'm pretty sure human society is much more advanced so that primitive roles from the animal kingdom do not apply to it. Anyone can be popular with women simply by being rich. And those who have a high position in society even more so (hello to all members of the Carnation Club). But that's my opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

I agree that Edwin not running for every skirt he notice, like Killian, and sometimes he may feel shy, but IMO he's a much more nicer character than the ones (perverted degenerates) we usually see in games of this genre. I would even say he is a kind of intellectual person, the way he behaves during the game quite proves it. It's not in vain that he wants to become a doctor.
However, I want to point out that there are still moments in the game where he behaves quite dominant, he can practically rape Felicia in the mouth during the party evening, so she even would be a little shocked for such turns of events. The way I see it, it's still not even the middle of the game, and a lot depends on player actions, so we can change Edward even more in that direction.

As for the rest of your posts, it's clear to me that you were misled by the tags, and were expecting one thing, but was given another which caused such frustration. You just trying to judge from prism as a different genre, where cuckolding and female domination included, this game not really about this. This game is good in it's own way, as a perfect example of corruption genre compared with moral dilemmas where depravity slowly consumes everyone who joins this club. And I personally want Edvin to take a bigger part in this carnation club. Can't wait to see some girls performing in these sex events, as Hana for example, who quite arrogant and angry towards the club, so see her fall will be quite entertaining
I simply don't see the reason to play saint in games (not like I play, as a real devil though) of this genre, there are enough regular games, where we always play for good characters and saving the world.

Edit. Looks like, while I was answering on old post's there is a lot drama happened
I wish my English was better, so I wouldn't need to edit my posts so long.
I hope you really just misled and was expecting different game, because now it's starting to look like a troll behavior.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

I‘m calling this absolute horse shit. Someone taking over the role of „the man of the house“ does not automatically happen because there is no father present. What even is this concept?

That is literaly the premise of most of those generic incest games we see around F95, including a few quite famous ones.

 

[MoarDakka123]

That is literaly the premise of most of those generic incest games we see around F95, including a few quite famous ones.

I think the issue was more that the guy was phrasing it as though things not playing out like that is somehow unrealistic.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

I think the issue was more that the guy was phrasing it as though things not playing out like that is somehow unrealistic.

I know, hence my first comment on this matter.

 

[quorkboy]

Sounds like this project isn't for you. You're trying to engage it in your own terms (with backward concepts like alpha and beta males), instead of what the story offers. If you're looking for a pure power fantasy, sorry. This ain't it. It's about the corruption of the main character: of him either embracing, rejecting, or working around his natural urges.

I don't know why you think sadists have to be some kind of large and in charge persona. Sadists are often a lot more banal. I mean, consider the type of people that play visual novels with a sadistic bent. Do you think they're "alpha males" in their actual lives?

I have sadistic fantasies and I'm even more meek looking than Edwin. Most people who know me would be quite shocked to find out (those who wouldn't be shocked are the very few who already know.)

I think you (and Gil) are being far too polite in your responses (but if that's the way you roll, I'm impressed at your restraint.) This person is persistently refusing to engage with the game they're playing, consistently misinterpreting everything even when it's explained to them, pushing (as you say, backward) myths of alpha/beta, thinks Edwin can't get laid without Killian (really? In my game he did it without Killian; he took advantage of Rose, did very dominant stuff with Felicia totally on his own without any help, etc.,) should be disrespectful of his mother, the list goes on.

I'm not even bothering to read his posts anymore. They're filled with the most ridiculous rubbish. Some of it quite misogynistic, and all of it rooted in fundamental misunderstanding of human nature.

 

[quorkboy]

This talking about alpha's and beta's always amused me, I'm pretty sure human society is much more advanced so that primitive roles from the animal kingdom do not apply to it.

It's not even valid in the animal kingdom. The person who originally popularised the theory has since rejected it as inaccurate. The basis of the theory came from studying behaviour of wolves in a zoo environment. It was later learned that this behaviour did not apply to wolves in the wild.

 

[MoarDakka123]

It's not even valid in the animal kingdom. The person who originally popularised the theory has since rejected it as inaccurate. The basis of the theory came from studying behaviour of wolves in a zoo environment. It was later learned that this behaviour did not apply to wolves in the wild.

Yup, I wanted to bring that up, but like you suggested, there's probably very little point in arguing about it.

 

[TM | Twisted Games]

What I am getting from todays thread, is that to be an 'Alpha male' (whatever that means) you have to be as insecure as humanly possible: Terrified of being in front of women without clothes on, afraid to show affection to your own mother, and too pathetic to have any male friends who are confident or successful. Good to know...

 

[SharkVampire]

The person who originally popularised the theory has since rejected it as inaccurate.

Never heard about him.

It's not even valid in the animal kingdom.

Well, I will not claim myself as an expert, since most of my knowledges come from TV channels, like animal planet etc. But I remember that this behavior apply to lions and some apes for sure. More than that, there are even alpha females! Who can kick other females asses if they forget they place

P.S. Kat and Veronica according to this theory are alpha females :3

 

[TM | Twisted Games]

Calling Kat an 'Alpha Female' is a good example of why human society is too complex for the labels to properly apply. She is smart, ambitious, in some circles she is even powerful, although a good portion of that is 'reflected glory' if you will...but she is often shown as open to being dominated, as well as dominating herself...and she is clever enough to appear subservient to...let's say 'certain people' to avoid spoilers...even as she works to replace them.

 

[TD1900]

I think you (and Gil) are being far too polite in your responses (but if that's the way you roll, I'm impressed at your restraint.)

Eh. I learned from my mother that as long as you're not a pushover about it, politeness doesn't cost anything.

Plus when you release something for others to enjoy and consume, you open yourself up to all manner of criticism, both fair and outlandish. If you can't roll with the punches, you're going to have a bad time.

 

[quorkboy]

Well, I will not claim myself as an expert, since most of my knowledges come from TV channels, like animal planet etc. But I remember that this behavior apply to lions and some apes for sure. More than that, there are even alpha females! Who can kick other females asses if they forget they place

P.S. Kat and Veronica according to this theory is alpha females :3

I'm not interested in debating this at length, but it does seem there is evidence of alpha male behaviour in a very few species. Wolves and lions are not among them. Nor are humans. A limited selection of ape species are. An interesting thing I learned reading up on this is that in these animal societies, a beta is not a weak subjugated member. They're second only to alphas and can hold substantial power, work with alphas, and take over as alphas should an existing alpha die or be no longer able to serve as an alpha.

I have other things to do than examine this concept in depth and determine whether it's accurate for these species. The core point remains: the human alpha/beta dynamic is a myth, and in my experience is perpetuated by people who don't understand human social dynamics.

 

[SharkVampire]

I'm not interested in debating this at length, but it does seem there is evidence of alpha male behaviour in a very few species. Wolves and lions are not among them. Nor are humans. A limited selection of ape species are. An interesting thing I learned reading up on this is that in these animal societies, a beta is not a weak subjugated member. They're second only to alphas and can hold substantial power, work with alphas, and take over as alphas should an existing alpha die or be no longer able to serve as an alpha.

I have other things to do than examine this concept in depth and determine whether it's accurate for these species. The core point remains: the human alpha/beta dynamic is a myth, and in my experience is perpetuated by people who don't understand human social dynamics.

You probably didn't read my previous post, I'm not among those who apply this theory to human society. The only thing that I wanted to correct you, is that it's not apply for all animals.
I'm also not supporter of arguing in the internet, it's almost never ends in an agreement between arguing sides. But my post had different purpose - discussion. Because I found what you wrote interesting for me, maybe something that I missed. If you don't want discuss anything besides game (in small offtop) so be it, I do not insist.

 

[quorkboy]

You probably didn't read my previous post, I'm not among those who apply this theory to human society. The only thing that I wanted to correct you, is that it's not apply for all animals.
I'm also not supporter of arguing in the internet, it's almost never ends in an agreement between arguing sides. But my post had different purpose - discussion. Because I found what you wrote interesting for me, maybe something that I missed. If you don't want discuss anything besides game (in small offtop) so be it, I do not insist.

I was emphasising that it's a myth for humans because I've been around on various forums long enough to know someone will often at this point jump up and say "hah! see, it's not a myth, apes have alphas and therefore the alpha/beta human dynamic is real." (Though to be fair, apart from a certain recent example, the level of discussion in this thread is better than that.) I did not intend to imply that you believed it. That probably did not come across well and I apologise for not being clear.

Going off topic is not generally tolerated by the moderators. We are expected to talk about the game and topics directly related to the game. But the primary reason is that discussing it in more depth requires time I do not wish to spend on a topic that isn't of significant interest to me. I don't mean that in any way as a slight against you or your interest in the topic. I simply don't have anything more to add that would benefit the discussion.

 

[sunaboz]

To hakarlman's defence, he did change his review and rating to a positive one, all it took was to check the game again making different choices and actually reading game dialogues.

1. What is the point of the conversation with the mother in the beginning of the game? Why is it so important to have dialogue options during this conversation?

That is one valid point he made, when I first saw it I was expecting another incest game (which I'm not a fan of) and it might be misleading. I guess the point of the options there is that if we want we can learn some more about the mother and if it doesn't interest us we can just move on and skip most of it (so the alternative of info dump without choices is way worse). But yeah, it would be nice if the choices we've made during that conversation would have some consequences later on (like us not wanting her to date, what's the point here).

- watches men gangbang a girl on a porn site.
- is a mama's boy.
- has zero experience with women.

Not a "girl" but his mom. Huge difference. And I don't get you saying "he's mama's boy" when all he does is treat her with respect and love her, which is what sons should do (especially "alpha males"). Edwin also has enough experience with women that would make him at least average (it's been stated in the game he's had girflriends) and judging by his sex techniques which is at kama-sutra master level at times, he's been modest about it. You can't expect an aspiring medicine student who spends most of his time studying to have serious relationships.

 

[hakarlman]

Not a "girl" but his mom. Huge difference.

Seriously?

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[sunaboz]

Seriously?

I thought you've finally started to read the text in game, guess I was wrong. Play it again and you will know. Or don't play it because it really looks like it's not for you (despite your review rating).

 

[TM | Twisted Games]

Seriously.

 

[TM | Twisted Games]

To hakarlman's defence, he did change his review and rating to a positive one, all it took was to check the game again making different choices and actually reading game dialogues.

Pretty sure his updated review was sarcasm, although I do applaud him giving the game the correct star rating

 

[hakarlman]

I thought you've finally started to read the text in game, guess I was wrong. Play it again and you will know. Or don't play it because it really looks like it's not for you (despite your review rating).

Okay... Look at this from my point of view: The game has a female domination, prostitution & BDSM tag. I'm very much into RECEIVING femdom, being NTR'ed, cucked, or being able to share women, or get humiliated because I like masochism and submission. So now you know my perspective going into the game. The female domination aspect and prostituting the mom out is what I was expecting and hoping for, and BASED UPON WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME, that it's the mom who got gangbanged in the very beginning, what conclusion am I supposed to draw from this? Hear me out...

This is hilarious. A guy with my masochist perspective, who enjoys being femdommed and humiliated, made the following assessment of Edwin:
- Watches his mom get fucked, no, not just fucked, BUT GANGBANGED. What a masochist!! AWESOME!!
- Has a fighting background, but it doesn't match how weak he's presented in the beginning of the game. Being able to fight is a huge deal, it should be clear as day to the player he can fight, because it shows his capability to rise above another man and impose his will (POWER) over others.
- Listens to his mom like a good boy (SUBMISSION). (This aspect alone does not make one submissive, but coupled with other aspects, can be a strong indication of submissive personality.)
- Doesn't understand clothing power dynamics (a lot of people don't understand this either, but Killian does, Edwin's friend who obviously has game. I'm sure all the other alpha males in the game understand this concept too, but Edwin is clueless, it's pathetic, but he's a little bitch, of course he doesn't know about this. Of course Edwin is too stupid to know about stuff like this, because he's a submissive fool, but that's why I liked the game, because he's the perfect character to be completely destroyed mentally). This concept should have a better term, I've been meaning to look it up for months. This concept actually exists, look it up, it's interesting.
- Looks like a complete and total chump. He should at least get contact lenses so his physical weakness isn't apparent, especially since he can fight. I get it, he's trying to make him look like that clever dude you find in prison who reads books all days, and who wears glasses, and he's the quiet killer, yadda yadda, I get it, but I did not get that vibe AT ALL from Edwin, not even close.
- Has a desire for [money], [respect] or [helping people], but the one desire he doesn't yearn for IS [power], another sign he's a submissive. At that point, I was actually very happy. I'm like, "oh wow, Edwin is really pathetic, he doesn't even yearn for power, he's gonna get totally femdommed, THIS IS GREAT! Too bad there was no NTR tag, but at least he'll get femdommed and humiliated because he's so pathetic. .......................... It's important I stress how important it is for him to desire [POWER], especially in the game's BDSM environment, yet the only options presented were Money, Respect, or Helping People. Some will argue money is power, but when it's just you domming the woman, money doesn't mean shit in most cases, cuz the poor dude with game can dom hot women if he knows what's up. I picked [Helping People], because, what a little bitch. Aww I want to help people, awwwww, what a little bitch.
- Dresses like a complete fool, requiring an alpha male to teach him how to dress. How pathetic. But, like I said earlier, I LIKED THIS, because it sets him up to be perfectly femdommed and humiliated for his ignorance.
- Look at Edwin compared to all the other men at the CLUB. Seriously LOOK AT THAT. In my head, I'm like, "oh boy, Edwin is gonna get the shit kicked out of him! This is gonna be great! BRING ON THE MASOCHISM. I can't wait for him to be completely humiliated by everyone."

The game is confusing. He acts like a literal cuck, but he's not a cuck?! Edwin is such fool, it would've made for the PERFECT femdom. It was THE PERFECT SETUP. Playing as Edwin made me think he was gonna get dominated. All the signs are there that he's submissive, but he ends up being dominant and it's not convincing at all, not even by 1%.

I gave the game a high rating, because on a serious note, 145 people who left reviews can't be wrong. The game has definitely found a target audience, but I'm completely baffled. This is sooo interesting how people perceive this guy has somehow capable of getting women. It's fascinating really.

I was literally enjoying the game, thinking Edwin was gonna get completely humiliated, degraded and femdommed over how pathetic he is, but instead the opposite happens and it doesn't make any sense. I was expecting his mother to be fucked over & over again and even whored out, but it never happened, but I didn't play to the very end of the game, so maybe it does? If someone could tell me that would be great.

EDwin is literally the IDEAL candidate for being NTR'ed. Just look at him, I mean LOOK AT HIM, hahah. He looks just like the guy from the game Cuckold Simulator, lol.

So yea, I'm just shocked that he ends up being somewhat dominant. I was so shocked. I'm like why do the women like this guy so much? It makes no sense. There's nothing likeable about him.

Now Killian definitely knows what's up. Killian is what the MC should be. If the game wants the MC to be dominant, then playing as Killian would've made far more sense.

Oh well, I'm glad you enjoyed the game, I also give huge respect to the developer for his responses. I genuinely made this post more for academic purposes, to challenge the narrative in this thread, not to cause trouble. If it's perceived as trouble, just let me know and I'll delete my criticism of Edwin (this post).