VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[hakarlman]

1. What is the point of the conversation with the mother in the beginning of the game? Why is it so important to have dialogue options during this conversation?

2. How is the MC not a submissive masochist if it's his FRIEND who constantly tries to get him laid? If this game is supposedly for the dominant minded player, it would've made more sense for our character to be like Killian. The MC's behavior, his mindset, it's PURE masochist submissive, yet the game tries to portray him as a dominant alpha. It doesn't work, but 145 five star reviews prove me wrong, I guess? Killian represents the real dominant alpha mindset. He's social, he's a good wingman, he knows how to get women. Our character's age and his lack of experience with women pretty much solidify him as a beta male, a submissive masochist, yet we can't play as a submissive masochist in the game? What?

Okay, so Killian, our buddy is the alpha male, and we're the beta male. Got it. Without him, we'd never get laid. Great premise for a game where the MC is supposedly the dominant.

3. MC is a mama's boy. IT SHOWS THIS IN THE START OF THE GAME. Another sign he's a beta male, and would make the perfect submissive masochist slave boy who gets pissed on by all the dominant women, INCLUDING HIS OWN MOTHER. I can't believe the mother hasn't forced his son to start licking her pussy while she smokes a cigerette. Meanwhile, she calls up Killian to come over and fuck her.

MC: "Mom, how could you be fucking my best friend Killian?"

Mom: "He's a real man. He actually knows how to get women. He's the one who hooks you up with women, because of how pathetic you are. You're so pathetic, you needed the CARNATION CLUB to literally hand you women so you could get laid, that's how fucking pathetic you are."

MC: "No mom! Don't say that. I may look like a complete cuck chump, but I'm trying not to be. PLEASE mom, let me make it up to you by worshipping your pussy."

Mom: "That's the only thing you're good for, is licking mama's pussy. NOW COME HERE BOY! Get my pussy ready for Killian's big dick."

Edwin cries like a little bitch knowing his mom is right and crawls to her, and begins licking and worshipping her pussy.

Edwin cries more, "I can't get laid without the help of alpha males like my friend, or alpha males at the Carnation Club. I'm a beta male bitch who gets handed women by real alpha males."


This scene.... OMFG..... Our character is the ultimate beta male.

Your amount of clothing is a MAJOR contributing factor to alpha stance. Imagine that you're in a room full of women. Imagine all the women are fully clothed, while you're completely naked...(Make sure you imagine it, then you will feel it, trust me) Feel it? The power dynamic swings in favor of the women, they fall into a position of power. Now flip it around. Imagine you're fully clothed and all the women in the room are naked, the power dynamic switches IN YOUR FAVOR.

Knowing this, in the above scene, notice how it's Killian who still wears the PANTS. He is dominant within that scene. The women are calm in control as if you're performing for THEM. The above scene clearly shows that your MC is a submissive, beta male, MASOCHIST. Anyone with a basic understanding of BDSM will instantly see this. Just ask ANY woman their opinion on the above scene, and I guarantee you they will identify Killian as the alpha male.

Edwin is the beta male. It's only natural the game add an NTR cuckold path for Edwin. Then it's important Edwin gets DOMINATED by the women, not the other way around, because it's just not believable. If we were playing as Killian, then playing as a dominant male would make FAR more sense.

 

[MoarDakka123]

1. What is the point of the conversation with the mother in the beginning of the game? Why is it so important to have dialogue options during this conversation?

2. How is the MC not a submissive masochist if it's his FRIEND who constantly tries to get him laid? If this game is supposedly for the dominant minded player, it would've made more sense for our character to be like Killian. The MC's behavior, his mindset, it's PURE masochist submissive, yet the game tries to portray him as a dominant alpha. It doesn't work, but 145 five star reviews prove me wrong, I guess? Killian represents the real dominant alpha mindset. He's social, he's a good wingman, he knows how to get women. Our character's age and his lack of experience with women pretty much solidify him as a beta male, a submissive masochist, yet we can't play as a submissive masochist in the game? What?

Okay, so Killian, our buddy is the alpha male, and we're the beta male. Got it. Without him, we'd never get laid. Great premise for a game where the MC is supposedly the dominant.

4. MC is a mama's boy. IT SHOWS THIS IN THE START OF THE GAME. Another sign he's a beta male, and would make the perfect submissive masochist slave boy who gets pissed on by all the dominant women, INCLUDING HIS OWN MOTHER. I can't believe the mother hasn't forced his son to start licking her pussy while she smokes a cigerette. Meanwhile, she calls up Killian to come over and fuck her.

1. Good question, I don't get these kinds of non-choices either, it could all just be one long text dump. Then again, text-dumps in the intro can be very off-putting so I'd happily chalk this up to having a minimal amount of player engagement.

2. That's not what 'submissive masochist' means though, is it? And where did you get the idea you're playing as some dominant alpha male? I'm asking sincerely here, I'm wondering if I missed something. As I recall, the pitch is largely about you abusing your position, any creep can do that, "betas" and even "omegas" (okay, what is with this r/redpill shit?).

3. N/A

4. I mean... Okay?

 

[hakarlman]

1. Good question, I don't get these kinds of non-choices either, it could all just be one long text dump. Then again, text-dumps in the intro can be very off-putting so I'd happily chalk this up to having a minimal amount of player engagement.

Well said.

2. That's not what 'submissive masochist' means though, is it? And where did you get the idea you're playing as some dominant alpha male? I'm asking sincerely here, I'm wondering if I missed something. As I recall, the pitch is largely about you abusing your position, any creep can do that, "betas" and even "omegas" (okay, what is with this r/redpill shit?).

I'm saying, given the MC's passive nature, it would make more sense to allow us to be submissive to the women. But the game is trying to force the MC's, whose an obvious masochistic submissive, into dominant roles. It's not believable, at all.

3. I mean... Okay?

Just supporting evidence that the MC would make for a far more convincing submissive slave masochist. He'd be a much better cuck. They should consider adding NTR if we're forced to play as Edwin, because it's obvious he's a cuck. OR let us play as Killian.

 

[TD1900]

1. What is the point of the conversation with the mother in the beginning of the game? Why is it so important to have dialogue options during this conversation?

2. How is the MC not a submissive masochist if it's his FRIEND who constantly tries to get him laid? If this game is supposedly for the dominant minded player, it would've made more sense for our character to be like Killian. The MC's behavior, his mindset, it's PURE masochist submissive, yet the game tries to portray him as a dominant alpha. It doesn't work, but 145 five star reviews prove me wrong, I guess? Killian represents the real dominant alpha mindset. He's social, he's a good wingman, he knows how to get women. Our character's age and his lack of experience with women pretty much solidify him as a beta male, a submissive masochist, yet we can't play as a submissive masochist in the game? What?

Okay, so Killian, our buddy is the alpha male, and we're the beta male. Got it. Without him, we'd never get laid. Great premise for a game where the MC is supposedly the dominant.

4. MC is a mama's boy. IT SHOWS THIS IN THE START OF THE GAME. Another sign he's a beta male, and would make the perfect submissive masochist slave boy who gets pissed on by all the dominant women, INCLUDING HIS OWN MOTHER. I can't believe the mother hasn't forced his son to start licking her pussy while she smokes a cigerette. Meanwhile, she calls up Killian to come over and fuck her.

MC: "Mom, how could you be fucking my best friend Killian?"

Mom: "He's a real man. He actually knows how to get women. He's the one who hooks you up with women, because of how pathetic you are. You're so pathetic, you needed the CARNATION CLUB to literally hand you women so you could get laid, that's how fucking pathetic you are."

MC: "No mom! Don't say that. I may look like a complete cuck chump, but I'm trying not to be. PLEASE mom, let me make it up to you by worshipping your pussy."

Mom: "That's the only thing you're good for, is licking mama's pussy. NOW COME HERE BOY! Get my pussy ready for Killian's big dick."

Edwin cries like a little bitch knowing his mom is right and crawls to her, and begins licking and worshipping her pussy.

Sounds like this project isn't for you. You're trying to engage it in your own terms (with backward concepts like alpha and beta males), instead of what the story offers. If you're looking for a pure power fantasy, sorry. This ain't it. It's about the corruption of the main character: of him either embracing, rejecting, or working around his natural urges.

I don't know why you think sadists have to be some kind of large and in charge persona. Sadists are often a lot more banal. I mean, consider the type of people that play visual novels with a sadistic bent. Do you think they're "alpha males" in their actual lives?

 

[hakarlman]

Sounds like this project isn't for you. You're trying to engage it in your own terms (with backward concepts like alpha and beta males), instead of what the story offers. If you're looking for a pure power fantasy, sorry. This ain't it. It's about the corruption of the main character: of him either embracing, rejecting, or working around his natural urges.

I don't know why you think sadists have to be some kind of large and in charge persona. Sadists are often a lot more banal. I mean, consider the type of people that play visual novels with a sadistic bent. Do you think they're "alpha males" in their actual lives?

The game itself supports my arguments.

- The game is BDSM.
- The game clearly portrays real alpha males. Pretty much every male shown is an alpha male. If you contrast this with Edwin, then Edwin is clearly, without a shadow of doubt, the beta male. A beta male would make for a much more convincing submissive & masochist.

If you're looking for a pure power fantasy, sorry. This ain't it.

I'm looking to play as a dominant male, but Edwin ain't it. It's not convincing that he has any shred or ounce of dominant drive. The beginning of the story clearly shows him as a complete cuck, beta, passive, wimp, slave. He's a mama's boy, it shows this in the beginning. He need his friend Killian to get laid, because without him, he'd never get laid.

THE CLUES ARE ALL THERE.

I don't know why you think sadists have to be some kind of large and in charge persona. Sadists are often a lot more banal. I mean, consider the type of people that play visual novels with a sadistic bent. Do you think they're "alpha males" in their actual lives?

The beginning of the game does not portray him as a sadist at all.

Edwin is such a stupid chump, he literally wears a plain red shirt to a club. My fucking god, this Edwin chump needs to get cucked as fast as possible. He's so pathetic, I cant' believe the guys at the club haven't kicked the shit out of him, and the women haven't dominated him yet.


It's not believable the MC can knock that guy out. It was never established that the MC has any form of combat experience.
edit: it was established that the MC has some combat experience, but it's just not believable. I stand firmly by my instinct. the beginning of the game should've shown edwin as far more capable, and not so pathetic.

 

[CAznable]

MC is a mama's boy. IT SHOWS THIS IN THE START OF THE GAME.

How in anyway does a man loving and caring about his Mom make him more or less dominant? He’s gotta treat his mom like shit or he’s some “beta” bitch in your eyes?

Okay then...

 

[hakarlman]

How in anyway does a man loving and caring about his Mom make him more or less dominant? He’s gotta treat his mom like shit or he’s some “beta” bitch in your eyes?

Okay then...

Edwin
- watches men gangbang a girl on a porn site.
- is a mama's boy.
- has zero experience with women. Killian, edwin's best friend, HELPS him get laid. EDWIN NEEDS HELP GETTING LAID. It's established Edwin can't get laid on his own, that's how pathetic he is.
- during strip poker, he removes his clothing, while Killian remains the most clothed (wearing the pants), that is beta male thinking. a man always makes the women naked, while the man remains fully clothed, this is the most basic element of male dominance.

All the clues are there that Edwin is a beta. I'm not saying being a beta is a bad thing, but the game would be far more convincing if there was a submissive path. Edwin IS NOT alpha at all, not even close. It makes zero sense that Edwin is able to get his dick inside a pussy. It's just not believable, unless he paid for it.

If the devs added a submissive masochist path, where Edwin gets cucked, NTR'ed and beat up by the other guys, then EVERYTHING would fall into perfect place. The game would become extremely believable. The game in its current state is not believable, at all, not even close, not even by 1%.

 

[MicahxArthurxTrevor]

The game itself supports my arguments.

- The game is BDSM.
- The game clearly portrays real alpha males. Pretty much every male shown is an alpha male. If you contrast this with Edwin, then Edwin is clearly, without a shadow of doubt, the beta male. A beta male would make for a much more convincing submissive & masochist.



I'm looking to play as a dominant male, but Edwin ain't it. It's not convincing that he has any shred or ounce of dominant drive. The beginning of the story clearly shows him as a complete cuck, beta, passive, wimp, slave. He's a mama's boy, it shows this in the beginning. He need his friend Killian to get laid, because without him, he'd never get laid.

THE CLUES ARE ALL THERE.



The beginning of the game does not portray him as a sadist at all.

Edwin is such a stupid chump, he literally wears a plain red shirt to a club. My fucking god, this Edwin chump needs to get cucked as fast as possible. He's so pathetic, I cant' believe the guys at the club haven't kicked the shit out of him, and the women haven't dominated him yet.

View attachment 1191554
It's not believable the MC can knock that guy out. It was never established that the MC has any form of combat experience.

You know what character development is right? I think an important part of this game is having the MC evolve from a pretty normal guy to something else entirely throughout the course of the story if you really want him to. I mean the seeds are there for him to turn into a number of things by the end of the story

 

[CAznable]

Edwin
- watches men gangbang a girl on a porn site.
- is a mama's boy.
- has zero experience with women. Killian, edwin's best friend, HELPS him get laid. EDWIN NEEDS HELP GETTING LAID. It's established Edwin can't get laid on his own, that's how pathetic he is.
- during strip poker, he removes his clothing, while Killian remains the most clothed (wearing the pants), that is beta male thinking. a man always makes the women naked, while the man remains fully clothed, this is the most basic element of male dominance.

All the clues are there that Edwin is a beta. I'm not saying being a beta is a bad thing, but the game would be far more convincing if there was a submissive path. Edwin IS NOT alpha at all, not even close. It makes zero sense that Edwin is able to get his dick inside a pussy. It's just not believable, unless he paid for it.

If the devs added a submissive masochist path, where Edwin gets cucked, NTR'ed and beat up by the other guys, then EVERYTHING would fall into perfect place. The game would become extremely believable. The game in its current state is not believable, at all, not even close, not even by 1%.

Answering my question about “why does Edwin loving his Mom make him a beta?” By just repeating your previous points doesn’t answer the question, it just dodges it. Also Edwin has had experience with women before now, he’s not a Virgin before the game starts.

 

[hakarlman]

You know what character development is right? I think an important part of this game is having the MC evolve from a pretty normal guy to something else entirely throughout the course of the story if you really want him to. I mean the seeds are there for him to turn into a number of things by the end of the story

I'm totally down for the MC evolving. I'm not unreasonable, but there needs to be some believability.

If you want to make it believable that the MC can evolve into a MAN, the introduction should show that the MC...

- has some kind of basic martial arts experience, even minimal.
- is capable of getting laid BY himself to some small degree, without the help of Killian.
- knows that when going to a club, he should wear some kind of basic club attire, so he doesn't look like a complete chump.
- should know to NEVER be more naked than another male in the room when playing strip poker. it should always be everyone else that is more naked than the MC, or that path should at least exist. We should be able to remain fully clothed, while everyone ends up mostly naked. The MC should be the one wearing the pants at the end of strip poker, not KILLIAN.

The game wants me to play Edwin as a guy who has the potential to get laid right? Well shit, it has to make it somewhat believable. Edwin in his current state is a CUCK, a beta male, a loser, can't even get women by himself, is fashionably clueless, doesn't understand BDSM power dyanmics in regards to clothing, the list goes on.

 

[hakarlman]

Answering my question about “why does Edwin loving his Mom make him a beta?” By just repeating your previous points doesn’t answer the question, it just dodges it. Also Edwin has had experience with women before now, he’s not a Virgin before the game starts.

Edwin grew up without a father. It makes ZERO sense that he would grow up into the kind of man that would treat his mother with so much respect, while being so submissive to her. If the father is not present, the male child will grow up wild and eventually begin ordering his mother around, ignoring her requests, shrugging off her demands. The male will grow up to naturally take over the family as the man of the house, or just flat out leave eventually, not be such a loyal submissive mama's boy to his mom.

If you mix the fact that he's a mama's boy, with all the other points I mentioned, it leads to one natural conclusion. A submissive, beta male, cuck, masochist, who enjoys getting NTR'ed. That is Edwin's natural personality. it's sooo obvious.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

"ALpHa and BeTa male"....

Go back to playing those "power fantasy incest games" you seem to like it so much and stop trying to apply their BIZARRE logic to everything else. You are embarassing yourself by doing that.

 

[hakarlman]

"ALpHa and BeTa male"....

Go back to playing those "power fantasy incest games" you seem to like it so much and stop trying to apply their BIZARRE logic to everything else. You are embarassing yourself by doing that.

Okay genius. How is it that Edwin can knock the guy out at the club? Where is it established that the MC has any fighting experience? Maybe I missed that part, because the dialogue was so fucking boring.

EDIT: It turns out the game does mention he can fight, so I missed it. The dialogue is soo boring. I gave the benefit of the doubt though. It's still hard to believe this nerd could knock anyone out. It's just not believable.

 

[MoarDakka123]

"ALpHa and BeTa male"....

Go back to playing those "power fantasy incest games" you seem to like it so much and stop trying to apply their BIZARRE logic to everything else. You are embarassing yourself by doing that.

Yeah, every comment just seems to go further and further off the deep end.

 

[MicahxArthurxTrevor]

I'm totally down for the MC evolving. I'm not unreasonable, but there needs to be some believability.

If you want to make it believable that the MC can evolve into a MAN, the introduction should show that the MC...

- has some kind of basic martial arts experience, even minimal.
- is capable of getting laid BY himself to some small degree, without the help of Killian.
- knows that when going to a club, he should wear some kind of basic club attire, so he doesn't look like a complete chump.
- should know to NEVER be more naked than another male in the room when playing strip poker. it should always be everyone else that is more naked than the MC, or that path should at least exist. We should be able to remain fully clothed, while everyone ends up mostly naked. The MC should be the one wearing the pants at the end of strip poker, not KILLIAN.

The game wants me to play Edwin as a guy who has the potential to get laid right? Well shit, it has to make it somewhat believable. Edwin in his current state is a CUCK, a beta male, a loser, can't even get women by himself, is fashionably clueless, doesn't understand BDSM power dyanmics in regards to clothing, the list goes on.

I don't really know how far you got but I think I can answer two of your points.

1. As a kid I'm pretty sure they mentioned that the MC used to get into fights alot a big portion of why Killian hangs out with the MC is because the MC used to protect him from other people. He eventually stopped because he took it too far once and got reprimanded. Could be wrong on those points its been awhile since I played.

2. The MC does get some new clothes for the club

 

[CAznable]

Edwin grew up without a father. It makes ZERO sense that he would grow up into the kind of man that would treat his mother with so much respect, while being so submissive to her. If the father is not present, the male child will grow up wild and eventually begin ordering his mother around, ignoring her requests, shrugging off her demands. The male will grow up to naturally take over the family as the man of the house, or just flat out leave eventually, not be such a loyal submissive mama's boy to his mom.

If you mix the fact that he's a mama's boy, with all the other points I mentioned, it leads to one natural conclusion. A submissive, beta male, cuck, masochist, who enjoys getting NTR'ed. That is Edwin's natural personality. it's sooo obvious.

It is sooo obvious that you are either a troll, or you are just making the most wild generalizations about boys who grow up without a Dad. Anyways, you’re free to keep repeating your same 4 points about this game till the end of time. About time we had a heckler in this thread. Have a good one.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Okay genius. How is it that Edwin can knock the guy out at the club? Where is it established that the MC has any fighting experience? Maybe I missed that part, because the dialogue was so fucking boring.

I don't need to explain anything to a guy who clearly haven't read the game dialogues.

It is sooo obvious that you are either a troll, or you are just making the most wild generalizations about boys who grow up without a Dad. Anyways, you’re free to keep repeating your same 4 points about this game till the end of time. About time we had a heckler in this thread. Have a good one.

Lol i was talking some days ago about how this thread didn't had any weirdo yet come up here crying over some bizarre claims. And today lo and behold!

 

[Construct]

The male will grow up to naturally take over the family as the man of the house, not be such a loyal submissive mama's boy to his mom.

I‘m calling this absolute horse shit. Someone taking over the role of „the man of the house“ does not automatically happen because there is no father present. What even is this concept? We aren‘t living in a time where the husband goes to work and feeds a family of five while the wife is at home and taking care of the kids.

The MC isn‘t going to be cucked or ntr‘d because he isn‘t set up to do so. Just because he has a friend that tries to get him laid doesn‘t set him up to be a cuck. The story clearly enables him to be dominant and this dominant side of him will clearly be developed throughout the story.
I‘m not even trying to defend the game or the dev, but your views are clearly colored by a certain view of how males should work and this does not translate into the game nor into the real world

 

[GIL3D]

Okay genius. How is it that Edwin can knock the guy out at the club? Where is it established that the MC has any fighting experience? Maybe I missed that part, because the dialogue was so fucking boring.

C'mon man, I appreciate your passion but you gotta be fair with us. It is stated multiple times Edwin used to beat the living shit out of other kids when he was young. Hell, there's even splash art depicting it. You just didn't read it.

If you wanna put a label on Edwin at the start of the game, "Omega" would be more fitting. Someone who doesn't care about how he looks when he goes out to a club, and has his own definition of success apart from the social dance. If someone like that is still a beta to you, we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, it's an evolved and strong-willed man's mindset.

You do seem to have a ton of ideas, a knack for dialogue writing and quite a sense of humor tho, so maybe you would fare well as a dev? Food for thought.

 

[SharkVampire]

1. What is the point of the conversation with the mother in the beginning of the game? Why is it so important to have dialogue options during this conversation?

2. How is the MC not a submissive masochist if it's his FRIEND who constantly tries to get him laid? If this game is supposedly for the dominant minded player, it would've made more sense for our character to be like Killian. The MC's behavior, his mindset, it's PURE masochist submissive, yet the game tries to portray him as a dominant alpha. It doesn't work, but 145 five star reviews prove me wrong, I guess? Killian represents the real dominant alpha mindset. He's social, he's a good wingman, he knows how to get women. Our character's age and his lack of experience with women pretty much solidify him as a beta male, a submissive masochist, yet we can't play as a submissive masochist in the game? What?

Okay, so Killian, our buddy is the alpha male, and we're the beta male. Got it. Without him, we'd never get laid. Great premise for a game where the MC is supposedly the dominant.

3. MC is a mama's boy. IT SHOWS THIS IN THE START OF THE GAME. Another sign he's a beta male, and would make the perfect submissive masochist slave boy who gets pissed on by all the dominant women, INCLUDING HIS OWN MOTHER. I can't believe the mother hasn't forced his son to start licking her pussy while she smokes a cigerette. Meanwhile, she calls up Killian to come over and fuck her.

This talking about alpha's and beta's always amused me, I'm pretty sure human society is much more advanced so that primitive roles from the animal kingdom do not apply to it. Anyone can be popular with women simply by being rich. And those who have a high position in society even more so (hello to all members of the Carnation Club). But that's my opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

I agree that Edwin not running for every skirt he notice, like Killian, and sometimes he may feel shy, but IMO he's a much more nicer character than the ones (perverted degenerates) we usually see in games of this genre. I would even say he is a kind of intellectual person, the way he behaves during the game quite proves it. It's not in vain that he wants to become a doctor.
However, I want to point out that there are still moments in the game where he behaves quite dominant, he can practically rape Felicia in the mouth during the party evening, so she even would be a little shocked for such turns of events. The way I see it, it's still not even the middle of the game, and a lot depends on player actions, so we can change Edward even more in that direction.

As for the rest of your posts, it's clear to me that you were misled by the tags, and were expecting one thing, but was given another which caused such frustration. You just trying to judge from prism as a different genre, where cuckolding and female domination included, this game not really about this. This game is good in it's own way, as a perfect example of corruption genre compared with moral dilemmas where depravity slowly consumes everyone who joins this club. And I personally want Edvin to take a bigger part in this carnation club. Can't wait to see some girls performing in these sex events, as Hana for example, who quite arrogant and angry towards the club, so see her fall will be quite entertaining
I simply don't see the reason to play saint in games (not like I play, as a real devil though) of this genre, there are enough regular games, where we always play for good characters and saving the world.

Edit. Looks like, while I was answering on old post's there is a lot drama happened
I wish my English was better, so I wouldn't need to edit my posts so long.
I hope you really just misled and was expecting different game, because now it's starting to look like a troll behavior.