VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Turret]

Hi!
I like the update, so the following is not to be seen as critic, but some thoughts, ideas and commentary on the game.

Toughness: We should not go for absolutes in Edwin´s behaviour. Very few people are one thing or the other. For instance, in my "pragmatic" playthrough Edwin (renamed, since Edwin is a very rare name in my country) is a genuine nice guy, trying to help people.
But this does not make him incapable of considering other options how to do it. He e.g. took the "Harper Gift" from Kath for purely strategic reasons. Both MC and player did not like what happened to Harper one bit and took some softening options, but did it for the Brownie points with Kath. If the MC wants to influence the fate of PC and the Carnations later on, he needs some trust and goodwill from August, Chuck and Kath first. So currently he toes the "company line" with Kath on small things and tries to bend and circumvent them and bigger ones when he can. Additionally he tries to get into Chuck´s and Augusts´ good graces (doubly so in August´s case since he is on Hana´s path). This has left Edwin with rather good standing among the PC leadership, which helped him greatly during the last exhibition.
Here he took quite a drop on stats with Kath because he chose nice options, like tickling the answer out of Felicia, but due to his work before Edwin still has okayish stats with Kath and really good ones with the other two owners, giving him options. Options like helping Jakob and girlfriend (it seems he fancies her enough to get into a fight for her) Emma out without having to worry much about backlash.

And Edwin´s niceness does not prevent him from contemplating helping, but pragmatic solutions, esp. when something does not sit well with him. As an example, Veronica´s standing with this Edwin dropped quite a bit during the new update. As we learned during the sauna visit, Samson´s dickmove meddling might have pushed Veronica onto this path, but that was just recognising a chance. The gym already was a millstone around the neck, Sam "just" added the whipped cream topping on it.

Veronica had already destroyed her marriage for a fracking gym studio, one her old trainer even warned her about before selling out to Sam. And Sam even told us that Veronica could easily walk away and start anew with another gym, there is still time for it, but that she won´t because of her pigheadedness. (pot please meet kettle, Sam and Vera are from the same cloth) And we know from Vera herself that even a win at PC is just a band aid. But pardon me, that drops her reason to be at PC very deep. She ruined her marriage, her friendship with Samson(it is hinted they had one), it seems her relations with family too and her finances for a Gym she was warned about by her trainer and even the guy who hastened the mess Veronica is in. And again, Samson himself stated that Vera could still start anew fresh, it is not too late for that. She could still have/live her dream without competing at PC.
So sorry, but for me this makes her reason for being at PC even worse than Feli´s. Felicia might be eccentric with an eccentric reason to compete, but she stands to win substancially if she wins in the end and even a loss might bring her at least some of the influence network she aspires to. She will not be worse off either way. Rosi simply has no other option to raise the needed money quickly enough.

And what IMO shines also through during the game, is that Sam has a big crush for Veronica. Most of what he did is because he could not land with her. He might be a dick and ass, but in a certain way those two deserve each other. I look forward to see if there is a possibility to couple them up, if Vera does not win.

 

[LastSonOfPersia]

Hello, so my save file were I chose Veronica as my partner is not working since the new update, other 3 work fine, is there any solution to this, or do I have to start from the beginning?

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in script
    $ ui.interact()
  File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in <module>
    $ ui.interact()
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in script
    $ ui.interact()
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\ast.py", line 914, in execute
    renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 2028, in py_exec_bytecode
    exec bytecode in globals, locals
  File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in <module>
    $ ui.interact()
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\ui.py", line 297, in interact
    rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 2702, in interact
    repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, trans_pause=trans_pause, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 3518, in interact_core
    rv = root_widget.event(ev, x, y, 0)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\transition.py", line 47, in event
    return self.new_widget.event(ev, x, y, st)  # E1101
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\screen.py", line 714, in event
    rv = self.child.event(ev, x, y, st)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 962, in event
    return handle_click(self.clicked)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 897, in handle_click
    rv = run(action)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 313, in run
    new_rv = run(i, *args, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 320, in run
    return action(*args, **kwargs)
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\loadsave.py", line 770, in load
    log.unfreeze(roots, label="_after_load")
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1983, in unfreeze
    self.rollback(0, force=True, label=label, greedy=greedy, on_load=True)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1815, in rollback
    self.load_failed()
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1733, in load_failed
    raise Exception("Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?")
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

Windows-7-6.1.7601-SP1
Ren'Py 7.3.5.606
Pale Carnations Ch3Up4Public
Thu Jul 07 21:14:23 2022

 

[sabadongelov]

Hana: To be fair to her if she did accept the Job at PC she would have to see her mom deteriorate in her home until she (Hana Mom) would die a very slow borderline torturous death from Huntingtons (when the person affected has little control over movement, is bedbound, unable to communicate, unable to eat and drink on his/her own and experiences severe chorea or extreme rigidity). She has shown NO signs that she would be there at all if her dad did not blackmail her with her mothers health. August even directly confirms this in his office while he is thinking and drinking in his office.

I wasn't talking about her working there, but about her accepting the position as August heir within the company. But even if we're talking about working there, it is still a line she has crossed. That doesn't make what she has done all black or anything, it's perfectly understandable given her situation, but she doesn't come out of it a pristine white either and it is a potential window for further corruption.

Her and MC are not dating and have only had a few possible sexual encounters it would be weird of her to say "Hey MC we arent dating but you still arent allowed to have any sexual encounters with anybody even if our job calls for it".

Jealousy is a feeling, it's not a contractual obligation. It doesn't matter what she and Edwin has agreed to, she could be jealous all the same based on her feelings.

And while they haven't agreed to anything, I think it's quite clear that there is a budding romance growing between the two (if you played your cards right).

Which in turn isn't actually even neccessary for some people to be jealous. Some people don't want to share even their casual sexpartners with others. Just take this game and many other games as an example. Ever wondered why it's possible to play a whole playthrough without ever having to watch another dick even come close to any of the LIs? Probably because the anti-ntr crowd would go apeshit if they couldn't avoid having every LI be completely exlusive to the MC. And that's even though the LIs are computer pixels and not even real human beings. That's how fucking jealous people can be.

I really think you lean to far into the idea of her being super jealous if MC goes for the "Harem" (doubt this game will even end with a harem espically on the good boi route) if we go by in game right now you have the option to be "a partner in crime" a "friend" and a "sugar baby/fuck buddy".

I haven't said anything about a harem route. I don't think there will be one and at this point I don't think it would be fitting given the present narrative. PC is a game with a very realistic vibe and if you want to introduce harem in such a game, it would take a lot of build-up to explain (why a number of LIs in the modern age would accept that kind of deal) and so far, there has been no such build-up at all.

But you don't need harem for jealousy. Hana have seen and will see Edwin fuck the carnations over and over again. The more enamoured Hana becomes with Edwin, the greater the "risk" for jealousy. Especially if Hana think Edwin is developing a more romantic relationship with any of the carnations (which, again, doesn't have to have anything to do with Edwin aquiring a harem). If anything, if she isn't jealous at all, despite the potential love of her life constantly fucking other women right in front of her, she would be a rather unusual woman and way closer to the actual harem dream.

All in all while it is possible she will walk a path of corruption I think if we are dividing LI she falls into the low toughness ones (at least for now)

As Hana is presented right now I agree (which I also said), my post wasn't about what I think will come, but a potential scenario I would appreciate.

Mina: I think Mina for sure has an option to fall into the high toughness ones but just want to say that she cheated on her boyfriend who had cheated on her for months, with potentially DOZENS of women both at work and non, not only behind her back but also in front of her for the sole purpose of "her trying harder in bed". On top of that from what we have seen and heard Ian is not even close to as skilled (regardless of toughness) at sexual stuff as MC is. Many of these references could just be MC bantering with Ian but lets be honest MC is MC so obviously they will be better at sex than the average scumbag. Even if Ian did not cheat from everything we have heard (mostly from Mina) indicates that he wasnt a very attentive or a very good match for Mina overall. Now when you look at MC he has the option to be way more caring, attentive, and sexually generous in a single scene than Ian had in a year.

Well, then she should break up with him, not have an affair behind his back. But sure, I'm not saying she's Hitler for being unfaithful, I'm just saying that we already have an example of her going with lust/passion over morality. That in itself is of course nothing compared to the most depraved shit occuring in PC, so what she will think about that if/when she finds out, we do not know.

Also, Edwin being better at sex and/or a more attentive lover than Ian, is, in my view, not in any way, shape or form relevant to the question of Minas morality. Cheating doesn't become morally ok just because the man you're cheating with has a bigger dick than your husband or any similar "but the sex is soooo good"-argument.

Why do you yourself think that she "for sure has an option to fall into the high toughness ones"?

Do we know for sure how the LI will be divided at the end?

No, this was pure speculation/thought experiment on my part.

I agree with the idea that the game is nudging you towards low toughness but I argue that a long narrative as detailed and in depth as this would not work if the creators didnt focus towards one path.

It has worked perfectly fine for quite som time.

Focusing on both (while keeping the writing and characters as good as they are) requires huge dialogue additions as well as scene and story additions and alterations.

No, it doesn't. You need to think a little bit more on how you structure your story, but you don't have to constantly put the MC in such situations where he/she would react very differently depending on his/her character. As I just stated, PC has managed this very well for quite some time.

Why would a high toughness MC only eat mina out?

There can be numerous reasons for that. Here's a few examples:
1. He actually cares about her (high toughness Edwin isn't a raving psycopath who is incapable of caring for others)
2. He is playing the long game, do something for her now, reap the benefits later.
3. He simply enjoys eating pussy for its own sake.

Why would high toughness let Veronica close the gym? Etc etc.

I don't even remember the details regarding that, but it wasn't anything that stood out to me. Also, isn't it possible to insist that she keep the gym open?

While the game could nudge you towards a high toughness route instead of low or both I again think that writing would present a challenge but this time in the opposite direction.

I don't see why the game must "nudge" the player towards any particular route. Either you let the player choose or you don't. What you don't do is give the player choice and then half way through pull that choice away and force the player in another direction. That's not good game design.

It is much harder to write a story that is this compelling when the end goal is just corrupting/fucking whatever you want. Look no further than the 30 highest ranked games on the site, the vast majority of them dont focus directly on corruption/Harem and if they do nobody is arguing that they are as well written as PC (excluding Caribdis games). I personally think the easiest way for a game like this to be compelling is to have the world (the setting, characters etc) push the MC towards one thing while the narrative slightly pushes the opposite. My opinion is colored by the fact that I value an interesting story over every other factor in a game by a large margin so take this with a grain of salt. [/SPOILER]

I have no idea what your talking about here. Harem is a very common and popular fetish/genre* and while it isn't (so far and probably won't be) in this game, I'd say PC has a shit ton of corruption already. Corruption of Edwin himself, corruption of the carnations (some more than others, but even Felicia is learning new tricks), corruption of Mina (cheating with her boyfriends best friend) and corruption of Hana (soon to be part of the leadership of the very criminal enterprise she loves to decry). I don't see why corruption would stand in the way of an interesting story, any more than any other fetish.

Also, sidenote, Caribdis games are entertaining, but nowhere near as well written as PC.

* Example of a well written, high rated and popular harem game: Love of Magic.

 

[Impermiable]

full gallery unlocked

put in folder game

When I click on this it leads me to a web page

 

[leRoulio]

When I click on this it leads me to a web page

Right click the link, then 'save link as' (Firefox) or something similar on chrome or other browsers.

 

[ename144]

I would say that the game itself is "subconsciously" nudging us toward the kinder side as all the 5 main LIs favor a more empathetic MC and, for 90% of us, getting favor/advancement with LIs influences what choices we pick.

The only female character that likes a ruthless/sado MC is Kathleen (and perhaps the chess playing nurse, although we've hardly interacted with her so far). It'll be interesting to see if any of the house girls are elevated (in the same way that Quinn, Lily, Envy, Riona are in BaDIK) to make going for "stay with the hoes at the club" ending more enticing.

I'd say it's more that the game nudges us away from the extremes. After all, we have 'extreme' kindness options like not cheating with Mina or refusing to placate Kathleen's lust for flamboyant cruelty, and I don't think the game is weighted towards them.

IMHO the reason the game seems to be nudging to the kind side of the line is because the society norm is for people to be empathetic and well behaved. The MC often struggles with latter (especially in his youth) and seems capable of the former only when he has a personal connection to the other person, but he knows he needs to fit in with the outside world. So it's natural that he would react warily to actions that might cause him to fall off the wagon and threaten his place in the world; even if he ultimately decides to take the action, he needs to think it through first. Whereas being extra nice to people rarely does long-term harm to your reputation (though it's worth noting he does still worry about how helping Rosalind and Veronica might hurt his standing with the Club when those options come up).

Also, I think it's possible we're overstating how much 'high Toughness' options hurt you with the girls. The girls often react poorly to Tough options that are directed against them, but that's to be expected. It's less common for us to lose points by being Tough to someone else; I think most of those are Hana, followed by Veronica. For Hana, I'd say it's fair to say that she's just incompatible with high-Toughness behavior (at least unless the Club winds up changing her). For Veronica, I'm not as sure. She definitely doesn't like the Club, so any Toughness actions that toe the Club line will earn her ire. But I'm not sure she'd be all that upset in a case where the MC unconcerned with the problems of a house girl or one of the other carnations.

Basically, my point is that I think it might be possible for us to stay on the path for most girls even with a relatively high Toughness. I think our ultimate decision about what we do with the Club will have a much more profound affect on those paths. The 'darker' options will probably end (or hopelessly twist) most of those paths. There will probably be a lot of overlap between the dark options and high Toughness, but I'd expect it's still possible to pick most of the dark options even with mid-range Toughness.

And Edwin´s niceness does not prevent him from contemplating helping, but pragmatic solutions, esp. when something does not sit well with him. As an example, Veronica´s standing with this Edwin dropped quite a bit during the new update. As we learned during the sauna visit, Samson´s dickmove meddling might have pushed Veronica onto this path, but that was just recognising a chance. The gym already was a millstone around the neck, Sam "just" added the whipped cream topping on it.

Veronica had already destroyed her marriage for a fracking gym studio, one her old trainer even warned her about before selling out to Sam. And Sam even told us that Veronica could easily walk away and start anew with another gym, there is still time for it, but that she won´t because of her pigheadedness. (pot please meet kettle, Sam and Vera are from the same cloth) And we know from Vera herself that even a win at PC is just a band aid. But pardon me, that drops her reason to be at PC very deep. She ruined her marriage, her friendship with Samson(it is hinted they had one), it seems her relations with family too and her finances for a Gym she was warned about by her trainer and even the guy who hastened the mess Veronica is in. And again, Samson himself stated that Vera could still start anew fresh, it is not too late for that. She could still have/live her dream without competing at PC.
So sorry, but for me this makes her reason for being at PC even worse than Feli´s. Felicia might be eccentric with an eccentric reason to compete, but she stands to win substancially if she wins in the end and even a loss might bring her at least some of the influence network she aspires to. She will not be worse off either way. Rosi simply has no other option to raise the needed money quickly enough.

And what IMO shines also through during the game, is that Sam has a big crush for Veronica. Most of what he did is because he could not land with her. He might be a dick and ass, but in a certain way those two deserve each other. I look forward to see if there is a possibility to couple them up, if Vera does not win.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel about a character (even my favorite), but I do think that's a very ungenerous view of Veronica's backstory. We have no first hand knowledge of her marriage or her wife, so I don't think we should take Kat's word that Veronica was ultimately at fault for the failure. It's possible, but we don't know enough to be certain yet. Veronica might only have thrown herself fully into saving the gym after the divorce because it was all she had left. Even if the gym played a large part in the failure of their marriage, without knowing what Liliana's objections to the gym were, we can't really be sure how valid they were and thus how much blame she should bear for any strain those objections caused.

Meanwhile on the gym itself, I think you're giving too much deference to Samson and not enough to Veronica. He said her coach (Danny) was reluctant to burden her with the gym, which you take as a sign she knew it was a bad investment going in. But it's possible Samson dissuaded Danny from conveying those concerns to Veronica, either by convincing him the gym really was viable or by paying him off to keep his mouth shut ("A sick man with debts is easily persuaded"). That would certainly be more compatible with what Veronica herself said in the sauna; she said it didn't occur to her that being uncrowded was a bad sign, not that she ignored bad signs she was aware of. Given how self-critical she is in that scene, I'm skeptical she was covering for her mistakes.

Likewise, just because the gym was struggling under Danny doesn't mean it was a genuine millstone. Veronica mentioned several problems beyond low membership, and those tie in well with the shenanigans Samson mentions (like directing her to his buddy's leasing company). Given how hard Samson claimed to have worked sabotaging her, I'm not going to assume Veronica would have failed simply because the gym was losing money before she bought it. More importantly, Veronica specifically says her problems with the gym largely predate meeting Samson and we know they met at an industry show for gym equipment. If Samson really did persuade Danny to give her a bum deal, the amount of money she was losing *at the start* could be far more than just those caused by the gym itself.

As far as Veronica being friends with Samson, I see no evidence of that and what evidence we do have suggests the opposite. She says she initially thought of him as a "run-of-the-mill narcissistic asshole." She got drunk with him when they first met, but the context (as far as she says) was discussing business. Samson's side of their early history is less detailed, but it mostly focuses on knowing of her through Danny. If he was already manipulating her before they actually met, I very much doubt he had any interest in befriending her.

Of course none of this means you need to feel sympathy for Veronica, and I certainly agree her reason for entering the competition is much less serious than Rosalind's. I just think you might be underestimating how far Samson has gone to sabotage her.

 

[Turret]

I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel about a character (even my favorite), but I do think that's a very ungenerous view of Veronica's backstory. We have no first hand knowledge of her marriage or her wife, so I don't think we should take Kat's word that Veronica was ultimately at fault for the failure. It's possible, but we don't know enough to be certain yet. Veronica might only have thrown herself fully into saving the gym after the divorce because it was all she had left. Even if the gym played a large part in the failure of their marriage, without knowing what Liliana's objections to the gym were, we can't really be sure how valid they were and thus how much blame she should bear for any strain those objections caused.

Meanwhile on the gym itself, I think you're giving too much deference to Samson and not enough to Veronica. He said her coach (Danny) was reluctant to burden her with the gym, which you take as a sign she knew it was a bad investment going in. But it's possible Samson dissuaded Danny from conveying those concerns to Veronica, either by convincing him the gym really was viable or by paying him off to keep his mouth shut ("A sick man with debts is easily persuaded"). That would certainly be more compatible with what Veronica herself said in the sauna; she said it didn't occur to her that being uncrowded was a bad sign, not that she ignored bad signs she was aware of. Given how self-critical she is in that scene, I'm skeptical she was covering for her mistakes.

Likewise, just because the gym was struggling under Danny doesn't mean it was a genuine millstone. Veronica mentioned several problems beyond low membership, and those tie in well with the shenanigans Samson mentions (like directing her to his buddy's leasing company). Given how hard Samson claimed to have worked sabotaging her, I'm not going to assume Veronica would have failed simply because the gym was losing money before she bought it. More importantly, Veronica specifically says her problems with the gym largely predate meeting Samson and we know they met at an industry show for gym equipment. If Samson really did persuade Danny to give her a bum deal, the amount of money she was losing *at the start* could be far more than just those caused by the gym itself.

As far as Veronica being friends with Samson, I see no evidence of that and what evidence we do have suggests the opposite. She says she initially thought of him as a "run-of-the-mill narcissistic asshole." She got drunk with him when they first met, but the context (as far as she says) was discussing business. Samson's side of their early history is less detailed, but it mostly focuses on knowing of her through Danny. If he was already manipulating her before they actually met, I very much doubt he had any interest in befriending her.

Of course none of this means you need to feel sympathy for Veronica, and I certainly agree her reason for entering the competition is much less serious than Rosalind's. I just think you might be underestimating how far Samson has gone to sabotage her.

Hi! I see where you are coming from! It is not that the "pragmatic" Edwin does not feel sympathy for Veronica, he gives her a needed hug without question, but what he learns about her motives getting into the competition "disappoints" him.

Feli went into it with open eyes and while some stuff was definitely unexpected, she tries to rise to the occasion. She might not be happy with some events (who could beside Kath), but she was not forced into PC and knew it would be hard. And what she wants out of the competition, there are hints she will get it. If we help Feli during the second exhibition, we can get relation Points for BOTH Chuck and August.(and not with the harsh options chosen)

Rosi had been dealt the worst cards, she simply has no choice to raise enough money as quickly by other means and must compete.

And here comes the reason, the pragmatic Edwin will still help Veronica save her dream, because he admires her fight for her dream, but is disappointed with her. We hear hints from several sides that the children wish and the gym were the reasons Vera´s marriage failed. So while it was not the sole reason, the gym played a part in that drama.
The studio was a millstone even before Samson started his meddling. He even said so, that his handiwork mostly made sure it became an even larger black hole. Even without him, the gym was on the downspiral. What Samson did out of unreturned feelings is truly bad and fucked up, but even he mentioned the kicker:
While the studio is pulling down Veronica, currently it is still not too late to get rid of it and start anew! Veronica could still live her dream, a bit "richer" in painful memories, but she could start over in a new Gym and never compete at PC.

That is the disappointment the pragmatic Edwin feels! Veronica does not have to give up her dream, she could start over with a new, better situated gym, never needing to compete at PC. Veronica hates (with good reason) the Carnation competition, but competes in it for the equivalent of a band aid, not a solution! Her old Gym is doomed, it even already was before Sam coup de graced it, that becomes clearer throughout the game.
Unlike Rosi (who needs the money quickly and desperately, but a win will erase the problems she has) and to a certain extend Feli (some local VIPs are members of PC and might not be reached for connections otherwise), who can see forward to clear net gains for competing, a win by Veronica would only lengthen the demise of her gym. For Vera competing is an example of sunk cost fallacy per excellence!
And here again is the disappointing paradox for pragmatic Edwin: Veronica hates the PC competition, but competes for no real gains! And she does not even have to do it, unlike e.g. Rosi! She could still live her dream with a new studio, not needing to part with her dream.

 

[Name00131]

How do I become Veronica's lover? I've tried replaying the entire game twice, but I can't figure out what I'm messing up

 

[sabadongelov]

Everything else is a you said is a valid opinion to have so I dont think there is anything to gain by further discussion on it however that is a really bad take about not only VN's but GAMES as a whole. Beyond the debate of whether or not PC has made the player "choose their route" or if people have decided to play high/low due to their own preferences, I struggle to think of almost any games even AAA ones or huge VN that dont nudge you towards an ending despite you have choice in the narrative beforehand. I highly doubt any games on this site fit that description but regardless please dont post a list of all the games you can think of as I dont want to derail the discussion into a debate on how videos games have narrative limits and are written by people who have natural biases.

I grow more and thankful every day that my preferred play style seems to be what players are "being nudged towards". I can really just sit back and enjoy the ride, I didnt even think his introspection was out of place this update because it is what I would be doing if I were in their position

Ok, dude. You just continue to think that the only way to make a good game is to cater to all your personal preferences and to none of the preferences you don’t have, and we can part ways.

 

[sabadongelov]

I'd say it's more that the game nudges us away from the extremes. After all, we have 'extreme' kindness options like not cheating with Mina or refusing to placate Kathleen's lust for flamboyant cruelty, and I don't think the game is weighted towards them.

I think we need to discern what kind of nudging we’re talking about:

1. There is deliberate nudging on the part of the devs, because the devs want to give the players illusion of choice but steer the outcome of the game in a canonical direction,
2. there’s accidental nudging due to bad planning and then
3. there is “natural” nudging due to not every choice and every possible path being equal.

The main problem, as I see it, lies with 1, if it is done poorly, so that the illusion breaks, 2 regardless of reasons and 3 if consequences are opaque, making it difficult for the player to figure out which choices/paths are suboptimal, easily leading to dead ends, where the player unintentionally has failed all or most viable routes.

Having some choices be suboptimal in themselves is no problem as I see it and I think the game has plenty of those, as there, for example, are conversations where the “right” answer nets you affinity points, whereas the wrong answer gives you nothing and none of the answers forces the player down a particular path.

Now, PC is constructed in a way as to give the players the choice between a more moral route (I say “more”, because it’s simply not possible to play 100 percent moral, because then Edwin wouldn’t be working at PC at all, he is an inherently flawed character) and a more depraved route, usually, but not always, measured in toughness-points. The more moral route will terminate in Ewdin leaving PC, whereas the more depraved route will terminate with Edwin staying at PC (and possible advancing into a leadership role). According to TD1900, the devs actively strive to not make the more moral route a suboptimal one as measured in sex scenes. From that I think we can infer that they also don’t intend to make the more depraved/more tough route suboptimal.

This further means that I think we can safely assume that any nudging away from either the moral route or the depraved route is due to 2, ie it’s not intended, because the idea is that both routes should be viable. And I think that this is what we have been discussing regarding the last update, that some of us feel that we’re beginning to list into 2. It’s not terrible or anything, but it is there.

And to be clear, as I pointed out earlier, PC does have plenty of suboptimal choices and combinations of choices, meaning that *always* going for the most moral or most depraved choice possible is no guaranty for an optimized playthrough. On the contrary, it probably will lead to a suboptimal playthrough (if we assume that optimization = as many sex scenes and relationship alternatives as possible) as a certain amount of mixing is expected. An interesting question is if trying to go completely down the middle is a more, less or equally viable route compared to the moral and depraved routes?

IMHO the reason the game seems to be nudging to the kind side of the line is because the society norm is for people to be empathetic and well behaved. The MC often struggles with latter (especially in his youth) and seems capable of the former only when he has a personal connection to the other person, but he knows he needs to fit in with the outside world. So it's natural that he would react warily to actions that might cause him to fall off the wagon and threaten his place in the world; even if he ultimately decides to take the action, he needs to think it through first. Whereas being extra nice to people rarely does long-term harm to your reputation (though it's worth noting he does still worry about how helping Rosalind and Veronica might hurt his standing with the Club when those options come up).

I don’t disagree with anything here, but I do want to point out that while kind/altruistic actions usually ingrate you with the person you’re being kind to, it also tend to have a cost in the sense that you have to give up something of yours (time, resources, opportunity and so on) in order to give that to the other. If anything, games have a tendency to over incentivise kindness/goodness, as the players seldom have to bear the cost that the kindness/goodness would entail for the character they’re playing. This is something to be vary of, if you’re making a game where you want the asshole route to be as rewarding as the white knight route.

Also, I think it's possible we're overstating how much 'high Toughness' options hurt you with the girls. The girls often react poorly to Tough options that are directed against them, but that's to be expected. It's less common for us to lose points by being Tough to someone else; I think most of those are Hana, followed by Veronica. For Hana, I'd say it's fair to say that she's just incompatible with high-Toughness behavior (at least unless the Club winds up changing her). For Veronica, I'm not as sure. She definitely doesn't like the Club, so any Toughness actions that toe the Club line will earn her ire. But I'm not sure she'd be all that upset in a case where the MC unconcerned with the problems of a house girl or one of the other carnations.

Basically, my point is that I think it might be possible for us to stay on the path for most girls even with a relatively high Toughness. I think our ultimate decision about what we do with the Club will have a much more profound affect on those paths. The 'darker' options will probably end (or hopelessly twist) most of those paths. There will probably be a lot of overlap between the dark options and high Toughness, but I'd expect it's still possible to pick most of the dark options even with mid-range Toughness.

You make a really good point here, so far, almost all possible relationship points squandered due to high toughness/depraved choices are because those directly affected by these choices won't like Edwin as much as they would if he acted kinder towards them personally. So far, it’s mainly Veronica that you can loose a bunch of points to by acting depraved/tough even though she isn’t personally affected by your actions. Even Hana mostly just talk a good game. As long as you don’t contradict her when talking with her (no reason to do that just because you’re on the high toughness path, I’d consider that naturally suboptimal choices, as there is no cost for Edwin to simply agree with her), you won’t lose out on her affinity points. I’ve combined a maximum toughness playthrough (as in having reached the cap in toughness) with maximum affinity on the Hana path.

However, while this is true, it doesn’t take away from Tumais point that the way we seem to be heading at the moment might mean (if nothing is done) that there will not be nearly as many romantic choices down the line for the depraved route (high/maximum toughness) as there would be for the moral route. That in turn would lead the depraved route to be a suboptimal route, which I, as I pointed out above, assume it is not supposed to be the case.

As I also pointed out, I think this can be ameliorated by allowing a depraved/high toughness Edwin to corrupt Mina and/or Hana. Both these women are young and probably haven’t their personalities set in stone yet. While I don’t know exactly how, I do assume that this will be a possible path for Hana, as she is made part of the leadership of PC, with her probably being both a possible end-game LI for low toughness Edwin (she is uncorrupted, they escape PC together) and high toughness Edwin (she is corrupted, they remain at PC together)

For Veronica, I'm not as sure. She definitely doesn't like the Club, so any Toughness actions that toe the Club line will earn her ire. But I'm not sure she'd be all that upset in a case where the MC unconcerned with the problems of a house girl or one of the other carnations.

I agree about Veronica. She have a chip on her shoulder regarding PC and Kathleen, which affect how she feels about people doing the bidding of PC/Kathleen. But I don’t view her as a crusader for good (that’s more Hanas role) and on the contrary, she seems to get off on a bit of dominance herself, as long as she’s the one in the driver seat. Her almost predatory reaction towards teenage Mina, when you bring Mina to the gym, also tells a different story, than that of a morally upstanding citizen. But alas, this doesn’t matter if you borked your chances with her by playing along with Kathleens depraved games, because I don’t think we’re going to get some “you and me are not so different” redemption moment any time soon. If your affinity rating already is low enough to lock you out of certain actions, you’re probably done for as far as romancing her goes, and that's where I am at my current playthrough even though "my" Edwin has tried his best to keep her happy without turning to much into a sofite himself.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel about a character (even my favorite), but I do think that's a very ungenerous view of Veronica's backstory. We have no first hand knowledge of her marriage or her wife, so I don't think we should take Kat's word that Veronica was ultimately at fault for the failure. It's possible, but we don't know enough to be certain yet. Veronica might only have thrown herself fully into saving the gym after the divorce because it was all she had left. Even if the gym played a large part in the failure of their marriage, without knowing what Liliana's objections to the gym were, we can't really be sure how valid they were and thus how much blame she should bear for any strain those objections caused.

Meanwhile on the gym itself, I think you're giving too much deference to Samson and not enough to Veronica. He said her coach (Danny) was reluctant to burden her with the gym, which you take as a sign she knew it was a bad investment going in. But it's possible Samson dissuaded Danny from conveying those concerns to Veronica, either by convincing him the gym really was viable or by paying him off to keep his mouth shut ("A sick man with debts is easily persuaded"). That would certainly be more compatible with what Veronica herself said in the sauna; she said it didn't occur to her that being uncrowded was a bad sign, not that she ignored bad signs she was aware of. Given how self-critical she is in that scene, I'm skeptical she was covering for her mistakes.

Likewise, just because the gym was struggling under Danny doesn't mean it was a genuine millstone. Veronica mentioned several problems beyond low membership, and those tie in well with the shenanigans Samson mentions (like directing her to his buddy's leasing company). Given how hard Samson claimed to have worked sabotaging her, I'm not going to assume Veronica would have failed simply because the gym was losing money before she bought it. More importantly, Veronica specifically says her problems with the gym largely predate meeting Samson and we know they met at an industry show for gym equipment. If Samson really did persuade Danny to give her a bum deal, the amount of money she was losing *at the start* could be far more than just those caused by the gym itself.

As far as Veronica being friends with Samson, I see no evidence of that and what evidence we do have suggests the opposite. She says she initially thought of him as a "run-of-the-mill narcissistic asshole." She got drunk with him when they first met, but the context (as far as she says) was discussing business. Samson's side of their early history is less detailed, but it mostly focuses on knowing of her through Danny. If he was already manipulating her before they actually met, I very much doubt he had any interest in befriending her.

Of course none of this means you need to feel sympathy for Veronica, and I certainly agree her reason for entering the competition is much less serious than Rosalind's. I just think you might be underestimating how far Samson has gone to sabotage her.

Agree on this to. Poor Veronica. Does not have the most urgent and deserving need, but also not the most fitting carnation seen from a more rationalist perspective, that’s without a doubt Felicia, who seem to enjoy many of the games and who’s stated goal is most aligned with the establishment that PC is. If I get to choose who wins, it might be Rosalind or it might be Felicia, but it won't be Veronica.

However, I wonder if the devs aren’t gearing up to give the player an option to bail out both Veronica and Rosalind even should they not win? So as to spare more sensitive players from going through seeing either Rosalind or Veronica (or both, should the player fancy Felicia) crushed by their defeat. Edwin is definitely trying to find some way to get Veronica out from under Samsons thumb and he’s has at least temporarily solved Rosalinds dept-problem. He could try to solve it more permanently through the same channels, as both Ian and Felicia have deep pockets and possibly could be convinced to help Rosalind out (for Felicia it could be one competitor less to worry about and for Ian, it could be if the MC has kept his Killian-bromance going, Ian might be a terrible person in some regards, but he's a got damn posterboy for "the really good friend", something that cannot be said of Edwin...).

 

[sabadongelov]

How do I become Veronica's lover? I've tried replaying the entire game twice, but I can't figure out what I'm messing up

I'm not the best to answer this as I haven't maximized Veronicas affinity myself, but there is both readable walkthroughs and a walkthrough mod on the first page of this thread, that probably can help you.

 

[Turret]

I think we need to discern what kind of nudging we’re talking about:

1. There is deliberate nudging on the part of the devs, because the devs want to give the players illusion of choice but steer the outcome of the game in a canonical direction,
2. there’s accidental nudging due to bad planning and then
3. there is “natural” nudging due to not every choice and every possible path being equal.

The main problem, as I see it, lies with 1, if it is done poorly, so that the illusion breaks, 2 regardless of reasons and 3 if consequences are opaque, making it difficult for the player to figure out which choices/paths are suboptimal, easily leading to dead ends, where the player unintentionally has failed all or most viable routes.

Having some choices be suboptimal in themselves is no problem as I see it and I think the game has plenty of those, as there, for example, are conversations where the “right” answer nets you affinity points, whereas the wrong answer gives you nothing and none of the answers forces the player down a particular path.

Now, PC is constructed in a way as to give the players the choice between a more moral route (I say “more”, because it’s simply not possible to play 100 percent moral, because then Edwin wouldn’t be working at PC at all, he is an inherently flawed character) and a more depraved route, usually, but not always, measured in toughness-points. The more moral route will terminate in Ewdin leaving PC, whereas the more depraved route will terminate with Edwin staying at PC (and possible advancing into a leadership role). According to TD1900, the devs actively strive to not make the more moral route a suboptimal one as measured in sex scenes. From that I think we can infer that they also don’t intend to make the more depraved/more tough route suboptimal.

This is a quick reply, since I am on a coffee pause and don´t have time to write a full essay.
I definitely question most of your conclusions and even the ones I agree with, I think you put a too negative spin on them. One example of your conclusions being flawed is that you state that the "more moral path" will end with Edwin leaving PC and the "more hard path" will end in him staying.
This is most definitely flawed since TD1900 stated more than once over the time PC is in development, that there will be endings with "nice Edwin" leaving AND STAYING with the Club (with one of the main LIs or single) and that "assh... Edwin" will likewise have endings where he leaves and stays with Pale Carnations (also either with a LI or single).
It was also implied that "mischievious Edwin"(a middleground Edwin, nice but able to make hard decisions if he thinks them to be the best solution) will have the same options.

 

[sabadongelov]

This is a quick reply, since I am on a coffee pause and don´t have time to write a full essay.
I definitely question most of your conclusions and even the ones I agree with, I think you put a too negative spin on them. One example of your conclusions being flawed is that you state that the "more moral path" will end with Edwin leaving PC and the "more hard path" will end in him staying.
This is most definitely flawed since TD1900 stated more than once over the time PC is in development, that there will be endings with "nice Edwin" leaving AND STAYING with the Club (with one of the main LIs or single) and that "assh... Edwin" will likewise have endings where he leaves and stays with Pale Carnations (also either with a LI or single).
It was also implied that "mischievious Edwin"(a middleground Edwin, nice but able to make hard decisions if he thinks them to be the best solution) will have the same options.

Fair enough, if that is what the Devs have said, then I've missunderstood leave or stay being connected to morality/toughness. It doesn't really take away from my conclusions though, as that was a sidenote. You're more than welcome to explain where your other disagreements lie.

Other than that, has the devs said anything about who will be potential LIs when the game ends? I'm wondering if it might be the case that the carnations and Kathleen are not real LIs in the sense that you can end up boyfriend-girlfriend with them at the end. Maybe the only real LIs are Mina and Hana?

 

[starkj]

How do I become Veronica's lover? I've tried replaying the entire game twice, but I can't figure out what I'm messing up

Can't yet, Friend is max for now.

 

[Turret]

Fair enough, if that is what the Devs have said, then I've missunderstood leave or stay being connected to morality/toughness. It doesn't really take away from my conclusions though, as that was a sidenote. You're more than welcome to explain where your other disagreements lie.

Other than that, has the devs said anything about who will be potential LIs when the game ends? I'm wondering if it might be the case that the carnations and Kathleen are not real LIs in the sense that you can end up boyfriend-girlfriend with them at the end. Maybe the only real LIs are Mina and Hana?

Hi! I might do that, but such explanations would come on sunday the earliest, too much others things on plate. But your questions about the love interests of Edwin can be answered rather fast.
According to what TD1900 told and implied us, the main LIs are Felicia, Hana, Mina, Rosi, Veronica and to a certain point Kath(but logically only for a max toughness Edwin). I am not sure if Dalia, Lucy or Harper (which play larger roles in the game than others) might be some dark horse LIs opened up later on, but THE MAIN LIs are Hana, Mina and the three Carnations.

PC is statedly not a harem builder. You can pursue one, several or all of the possible love interests, but there will come a situation where you have to choose one of them as your lover/wife. Corruption will have some influence how some paths in living together develop, but not be gamebreakers (Theory for example a high libido Rosalind might be convinced or decide on her own to keep doing some shifts at PC afterwards, no matter if winning or not. Might be easier if some reforms are made at the club, but this is just one theory)
If you are on good terms with a girl you did not choose, then you stay platonic friends and/or part ways on friendly terms.
As Simpgor and Avaron1974 wrote, if you are a hardcore-NTR hater(of which some have very strange notions what NTR is) or not so resilent emotionally, then you would be better off not pursuing the three Carnations.

 

[Bill Temple]

How do I become Veronica's lover? I've tried replaying the entire game twice, but I can't figure out what I'm messing up

Do you mean in the Stats window? Or do you mean just being able to "do stuff" with her?
If you mean the Stats window, you can't get her relationship status to be anything other than "Carnation" or "Friends" (achieved if she has 22+ affection and you comfort her after her the strap-on scene in the second exhibition)
If you mean getting sexual with her outside of club activities, the closest thing is if you choose "Scratch Veronica's back" after the week 2 photoshoot in the gym: requires 10+ affection, 8+ horniness, and that you chose "Try and warm Veronica up before the rest of the photo shoot".

 

[sabadongelov]

You drew alot of conclusion without having reading the pubically available stuff the devs have posted here. It took me a few seconds to look for "potential LI" in this thread and found this

You salty!

TD liked this post so it is very safe to say that the contestants are LI otherwise "if they are emotionally fragile then they should avoid the contestants" would be a pointless sentence not to mention a game having 4 of the 6 LI be fake outs/depressing/bad ends would be an EXTREMELY bold choice in a (very compelling) adult visual novel

Well, someone just told me that no quality game could ever let the players decide for themselves what kind of ending they might want, they need to be "nudged" in the right direction. So, if the devs think that two of the possible six LIs are preferable, of course they should restrict the game in such a manner so that that is what the players will end up with.

 

[sabadongelov]

Hi! I might do that, but such explanations would come on sunday the earliest, too much others things on plate.

No sweat!

But your questions about the love interests of Edwin can be answered rather fast.
According to what TD1900 told and implied us, the main LIs are Felicia, Hana, Mina, Rosi, Veronica and to a certain point Kath(but logically only for a max toughness Edwin). I am not sure if Dalia, Lucy or Harper (which play larger roles in the game than others) might be some dark horse LIs opened up later on, but THE MAIN LIs are Hana, Mina and the three Carnations.

Well then. That means that Tumais comment is still relevant, especially if Kathleen is some sort of half LI and ESPECIALLY should Hana be locked out for max toughness Edwin (but I'm still thinking there will be an opportunity to turn her to the dark side... ).

PC is statedly not a harem builder. You can pursue one, several or all of the possible love interests, but there will come a situation where you have to choose one of them as your lover/wife. Corruption will have some influence how some paths in living together develop, but not be gamebreakers (Theory for example a high libido Rosalind might be convinced or decide on her own to keep doing some shifts at PC afterwards, no matter if winning or not. Might be easier if some reforms are made at the club, but this is just one theory)
If you are on good terms with a girl you did not choose, then you stay platonic friends and/or part ways on friendly terms.
As Simpgor and Avaron1974 wrote, if you are a hardcore-NTR hater(of which some have very strange notions what NTR is) or not so resilent emotionally, then you would be better off not pursuing the three Carnations.

So, that implies that there either will be some large orgy where the carnations have sex with other men or one or several of them will become house girls or something similar. Interesting. As for Harem, I kind of assumed that was out of the question and I'm no particular fan of NTR, but I'm not allergic either.

By the way, if it is possible to reform PC, so that the nasty things are removed and it is reinvented as a union approved, only safe-sex brothel were sex-workers are treated decently and no funny business, I would consider that as basically the same as leaving, even though it is technically staying. That kind of staying would work fine with a moral/low toughness Edwin and an uncorrupted Hana. Just saying.

 

[Turret]

No sweat!
Well then. That means that Tumais comment is still relevant, especially if Kathleen is some sort of half LI and ESPECIALLY should Hana be locked out for max toughness Edwin (but I'm still thinking there will be an opportunity to turn her to the dark side... ).

No LI is locked out, but depending on their established personality some couple options are easier or harder to create, due to convictions, ideals and compatible outlook of the two persons in question.
E.g. it is easier for a genuinly nice with a modicum of morals Edwin to win the heart of Hana than a deviant agreeing with his best chummer Ian that PC is the best since sliced bread Edwin. A 30+ toughness Edwin can still land with Hana, but this is extremly difficult, since he will have a hard time getting enough relationship points and their different outlooks on life won´t help.

As for "turning Hana to the dark side" there is the question what each person sees as corruption and more important how this shows. For example Hana might only becoming more adventurous in bed when she gets corrupted, something as deeply ingrained as her "freedom of choice" ideal and that she wants a functioning family will not go away early or maybe not at all. I can see an uncorrupted or only slightly to medium corrupted Hana working out with both a low toughness and a mischivious Edwin.

I also think that Mina wil be easier to corrupt than Hana or Felicia, who both generally know what they want and like and give a damn what most other people think about them. And it is NOT her naivity from coming from a Nuns bunker school, but what we see in glimpses about her. The combination of curiosity and the "I do not know who I am, what are my feelings", is what makes her vulnerable.

So, that implies that there either will be some large orgy where the carnations have sex with other men or one or several of them will become house girls or something similar. Interesting. As for Harem, I kind of assumed that was out of the question and I'm no particular fan of NTR, but I'm not allergic either.

By the way, if it is possible to reform PC, so that the nasty things are removed and it is reinvented as a union approved, only safe-sex brothel were sex-workers are treated decently and no funny business, I would consider that as basically the same as leaving, even though it is technically staying. That kind of staying would work fine with a moral/low toughness Edwin and an uncorrupted Hana. Just saying.

Even in a reformed PC there might be a bit "funny sex business". Not that much, but still a bit. Hana has no problem with prostitution as a job, her problem with the Club is that many of the Girls and Carnations there are exploited or working under duress. If someone working at the Club is there without being forced and by their own decision, then Hana is OK with that. As seen when she told Felicia that she wished all girls at the Club were like her. Feli does not need to be at PC, it was her choice to do so and she has at least sometimes real fun doing the competition.
So for instance if there is a housegirl, who was not forced to be at the Club, who is ok with "waterboarding games" or other kinky stuff, then I can see even the reformed Club keeping these sex practises on the menue.

But yes, reforming the club to be less exploiting, more decent treatment and "special business"-like fits more un- or only slightly/medium corrupted Edwin and Hana.

 

[ename144]

We got an earlier than expected Dev Diary today!

Spoiler: Dev Diary 41

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It looks like TD and GIL have completed 241 static images, 0 animations and 3581 words in the last 13 days, an average of ~130 statics, 0 animations and 1928 words per week. Their overall average is now roughly 123 statics, 1.2 animations and 2727 words per week since work on Chapter 4 Update 1 began. Behold the charts!

Spoiler: Unmoving Charts

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Progress has dipped a bit from last time, but not by that much; it's probably just a result of when the the work is reported. Obviously we're only on pace for 3 animations at the moment, but I'm confident GIL will rally. Beyond that there's not too much to analyze. The target numbers should be much lower than Ch3Up4 (assuming TD can restrain himself and not expand the update), but we don't have much sense of how much smaller so there's not much to compare the numbers to at this time. We should match Chapter 2 Update 1's static count around the end of September, so maybe we can use that as a benchmark for now.

In the meantime, I shall look forward to the new update as ordered. It's an easy task.