- Aug 11, 2019
- 6
- 6
No, thank you for the game!Oh, I'm sure it's more than that, that's just the expressed comments here that I remember reading - and my memory could be on the gentler side.Still, point is, you're not the first to bring it up.
Anyway, thank you for the food for thought.
I agree and want to add that this is one of the absolute most qualitative games that can be found on this site and it would be worth playing even if the high toughness Edwin route were to be dropped entirely. And while I have the complaint about the last update that I have, I still enjoyed it immensely.I have been struggling to write an indepth review of the latest update since public release, because it is really hard to point out where and in which way it didnt meet my expectations; it is hard because voicing a nuanced critique in an foreign language on a essentially very good and still way above average update takes me a lot of time and effort. It is hard because even if we know TD1900 is a good sport in taking substantial critique, i think nobody is above of involuntary feeling a little bit hurt when some rando pokes at their product i believe so much time and passion went into.
It is like your mother prepared for hours a feast and you publicly comment about the lack of salt in her soup at the dinner table in front of the whole family. I did something similar, and although i was technically right, it was less than stellar in that setting.
So should we avoid critique? Of course not, because i believe we, the fanbase, and Team Jeff&Mutt share the same goal: creating a game we both love. So i will try to tread with care.
To reuse above example: with this update TD1900 served a lovely home-cooked meal, but we were spoiled by their award winning chef cuisine in former updates.
Initially i was planning on a second playthrough of the latest update, in order to discuss my perceived strengthes and weaknesses of each scene. With the next update still months away, i am confident to be able to deliver a more balanced and fairer assessment at a later date. However, i wanted to chip into the present discussion instead of responding to some week-old posts of fellow members. So this is a bit quick and dirty shot from the hip and does not fully represent my view.
Overall i felt the latest update to be underutilized, and i am pretty much on the same page as sabadongelov. In nearly every scene i felt there was a decision or choice missing to enhance our agency on Edwins involve- and development.
Just two examples out of many:
At the restaurant -as i understand the situation-, Feli going for a fag outside and Rosie leaving for the toilet was designed in order to have Edwin an one on one with Veronica, but still i would have preferred to have an option to follow Rosie to the toilet or to catch some fresh air with Feli. For instance with following Rosie to the toilet we could have had a quick chat about meeting in the parking lot after the meal (and perhaps even gain or lose an affection point with another choice there) and then looping back to the Veronica situation. With Felicia we could have had a longer chat about the upcoming sugar-mommy date or something like her expectations about the exhibition, without looping back to Veronica, because Rosie would have finished her bathroom visit already.
The second example would be the human toilet scene with Cassandra in the velvet room. This was a Grade A missed chance to earn some Brownie points with Kathleen by making a degrading comment or loosing toughness by expressing disgust. Victoria raised no slow dummy, and some of us players were quite familiar with the watersport content provided so far. Being surprised may have been a good neutral choice for for those who avoided that content.
sabadongelov felt there were more choices in earlier parts of the game and without doing the actual count it is hard to tell for sure, but i definetly second this feeling.
I do understand there have to be restrictions on how much content each scene inside an update gets, because every author doesnt have infinite time and needs to get things actually done, but this update was the first time had the feeling -and this sounds super harsh and i am very well aware this is probably completely unfounded and unfair- that TD1900 cut some corners to finish the update on schedule.
Despite there being more, i will leave it for now, because without counterbalancing my critique with the really, really good, strong and positive scenes and situations (there are plenty of those too!) this post spirals into unintended negativity.
Please be aware that i fully recognize your effort and all my critique is born out of love and the greedy, self-centered notion of contributing to better an already great game!
This is something I’ve been thinking about also, that the affinity system is kind of set up in a way that will guide players toward a non maximum toughness playstyle. It’s exacerbated by the fact that there is a ceiling on toughness (caped at 30 if I’m not mistaken) that is reached quite quickly, at which point the player has even less incentive to choose toughness-options when they come with an affinity cost towards one or several of the LI:s. However, maybe there is a similar effect regarding minimum toughness playstyles also, as that is likely caped as well.I would say that the game itself is "subconsciously" nudging us toward the kinder side as all the 5 main LIs favor a more empathetic MC and, for 90% of us, getting favor/advancement with LIs influences what choices we pick.
The only female character that likes a ruthless/sado MC is Kathleen (and perhaps the chess playing nurse, although we've hardly interacted with her so far). It'll be interesting to see if any of the house girls are elevated (in the same way that Quinn, Lily, Envy, Riona are in BaDIK) to make going for "stay with the hoes at the club" ending more enticing.
I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.
While running game code:
File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in script
$ ui.interact()
File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in <module>
$ ui.interact()
File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
renpy.load(fn)
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?
-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------
Full traceback:
File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in script
$ ui.interact()
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\ast.py", line 914, in execute
renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 2028, in py_exec_bytecode
exec bytecode in globals, locals
File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in <module>
$ ui.interact()
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\ui.py", line 297, in interact
rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 2702, in interact
repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, trans_pause=trans_pause, **kwargs)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 3518, in interact_core
rv = root_widget.event(ev, x, y, 0)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\transition.py", line 47, in event
return self.new_widget.event(ev, x, y, st) # E1101
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\screen.py", line 714, in event
rv = self.child.event(ev, x, y, st)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 962, in event
return handle_click(self.clicked)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 897, in handle_click
rv = run(action)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 313, in run
new_rv = run(i, *args, **kwargs)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 320, in run
return action(*args, **kwargs)
File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
renpy.load(fn)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\loadsave.py", line 770, in load
log.unfreeze(roots, label="_after_load")
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1983, in unfreeze
self.rollback(0, force=True, label=label, greedy=greedy, on_load=True)
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1815, in rollback
self.load_failed()
File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1733, in load_failed
raise Exception("Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?")
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?
Windows-7-6.1.7601-SP1
Ren'Py 7.3.5.606
Pale Carnations Ch3Up4Public
Thu Jul 07 21:14:23 2022
I wasn't talking about her working there, but about her accepting the position as August heir within the company. But even if we're talking about working there, it is still a line she has crossed. That doesn't make what she has done all black or anything, it's perfectly understandable given her situation, but she doesn't come out of it a pristine white either and it is a potential window for further corruption.Hana: To be fair to her if she did accept the Job at PC she would have to see her mom deteriorate in her home until she (Hana Mom) would die a very slow borderline torturous death from Huntingtons (when the person affected has little control over movement, is bedbound, unable to communicate, unable to eat and drink on his/her own and experiences severe chorea or extreme rigidity). She has shown NO signs that she would be there at all if her dad did not blackmail her with her mothers health. August even directly confirms this in his office while he is thinking and drinking in his office.
Jealousy is a feeling, it's not a contractual obligation. It doesn't matter what she and Edwin has agreed to, she could be jealous all the same based on her feelings.Her and MC are not dating and have only had a few possible sexual encounters it would be weird of her to say "Hey MC we arent dating but you still arent allowed to have any sexual encounters with anybody even if our job calls for it".
I haven't said anything about a harem route. I don't think there will be one and at this point I don't think it would be fitting given the present narrative. PC is a game with a very realistic vibe and if you want to introduce harem in such a game, it would take a lot of build-up to explain (why a number of LIs in the modern age would accept that kind of deal) and so far, there has been no such build-up at all.I really think you lean to far into the idea of her being super jealous if MC goes for the "Harem" (doubt this game will even end with a harem espically on the good boi route) if we go by in game right now you have the option to be "a partner in crime" a "friend" and a "sugar baby/fuck buddy".
As Hana is presented right now I agree (which I also said), my post wasn't about what I think will come, but a potential scenario I would appreciate.All in all while it is possible she will walk a path of corruption I think if we are dividing LI she falls into the low toughness ones (at least for now)
Well, then she should break up with him, not have an affair behind his back. But sure, I'm not saying she's Hitler for being unfaithful, I'm just saying that we already have an example of her going with lust/passion over morality. That in itself is of course nothing compared to the most depraved shit occuring in PC, so what she will think about that if/when she finds out, we do not know.Mina: I think Mina for sure has an option to fall into the high toughness ones but just want to say that she cheated on her boyfriend who had cheated on her for months, with potentially DOZENS of women both at work and non, not only behind her back but also in front of her for the sole purpose of "her trying harder in bed". On top of that from what we have seen and heard Ian is not even close to as skilled (regardless of toughness) at sexual stuff as MC is. Many of these references could just be MC bantering with Ian but lets be honest MC is MC so obviously they will be better at sex than the average scumbag. Even if Ian did not cheat from everything we have heard (mostly from Mina) indicates that he wasnt a very attentive or a very good match for Mina overall. Now when you look at MC he has the option to be way more caring, attentive, and sexually generous in a single scene than Ian had in a year.
No, this was pure speculation/thought experiment on my part.Do we know for sure how the LI will be divided at the end?
It has worked perfectly fine for quite som time.I agree with the idea that the game is nudging you towards low toughness but I argue that a long narrative as detailed and in depth as this would not work if the creators didnt focus towards one path.
No, it doesn't. You need to think a little bit more on how you structure your story, but you don't have to constantly put the MC in such situations where he/she would react very differently depending on his/her character. As I just stated, PC has managed this very well for quite some time.Focusing on both (while keeping the writing and characters as good as they are) requires huge dialogue additions as well as scene and story additions and alterations.
There can be numerous reasons for that. Here's a few examples:Why would a high toughness MC only eat mina out?
I don't even remember the details regarding that, but it wasn't anything that stood out to me. Also, isn't it possible to insist that she keep the gym open?Why would high toughness let Veronica close the gym? Etc etc.
I don't see why the game must "nudge" the player towards any particular route. Either you let the player choose or you don't. What you don't do is give the player choice and then half way through pull that choice away and force the player in another direction. That's not good game design.While the game could nudge you towards a high toughness route instead of low or both I again think that writing would present a challenge but this time in the opposite direction.
I have no idea what your talking about here. Harem is a very common and popular fetish/genre* and while it isn't (so far and probably won't be) in this game, I'd say PC has a shit ton of corruption already. Corruption of Edwin himself, corruption of the carnations (some more than others, but even Felicia is learning new tricks), corruption of Mina (cheating with her boyfriends best friend) and corruption of Hana (soon to be part of the leadership of the very criminal enterprise she loves to decry). I don't see why corruption would stand in the way of an interesting story, any more than any other fetish.It is much harder to write a story that is this compelling when the end goal is just corrupting/fucking whatever you want. Look no further than the 30 highest ranked games on the site, the vast majority of them dont focus directly on corruption/Harem and if they do nobody is arguing that they are as well written as PC (excluding Caribdis games). I personally think the easiest way for a game like this to be compelling is to have the world (the setting, characters etc) push the MC towards one thing while the narrative slightly pushes the opposite. My opinion is colored by the fact that I value an interesting story over every other factor in a game by a large margin so take this with a grain of salt. [/SPOILER]
When I click on this it leads me to a web pagefull gallery unlocked
put in folder game
Right click the link, then 'save link as' (Firefox) or something similar on chrome or other browsers.When I click on this it leads me to a web page
I'd say it's more that the game nudges us away from the extremes. After all, we have 'extreme' kindness options like not cheating with Mina or refusing to placate Kathleen's lust for flamboyant cruelty, and I don't think the game is weighted towards them.I would say that the game itself is "subconsciously" nudging us toward the kinder side as all the 5 main LIs favor a more empathetic MC and, for 90% of us, getting favor/advancement with LIs influences what choices we pick.
The only female character that likes a ruthless/sado MC is Kathleen (and perhaps the chess playing nurse, although we've hardly interacted with her so far). It'll be interesting to see if any of the house girls are elevated (in the same way that Quinn, Lily, Envy, Riona are in BaDIK) to make going for "stay with the hoes at the club" ending more enticing.
I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel about a character (even my favorite), but I do think that's a very ungenerous view of Veronica's backstory. We have no first hand knowledge of her marriage or her wife, so I don't think we should take Kat's word that Veronica was ultimately at fault for the failure. It's possible, but we don't know enough to be certain yet. Veronica might only have thrown herself fully into saving the gym after the divorce because it was all she had left. Even if the gym played a large part in the failure of their marriage, without knowing what Liliana's objections to the gym were, we can't really be sure how valid they were and thus how much blame she should bear for any strain those objections caused.And Edwin´s niceness does not prevent him from contemplating helping, but pragmatic solutions, esp. when something does not sit well with him. As an example, Veronica´s standing with this Edwin dropped quite a bit during the new update. As we learned during the sauna visit, Samson´s dickmove meddling might have pushed Veronica onto this path, but that was just recognising a chance. The gym already was a millstone around the neck, Sam "just" added the whipped cream topping on it.
Veronica had already destroyed her marriage for a fracking gym studio, one her old trainer even warned her about before selling out to Sam. And Sam even told us that Veronica could easily walk away and start anew with another gym, there is still time for it, but that she won´t because of her pigheadedness. (pot please meet kettle, Sam and Vera are from the same cloth) And we know from Vera herself that even a win at PC is just a band aid. But pardon me, that drops her reason to be at PC very deep. She ruined her marriage, her friendship with Samson(it is hinted they had one), it seems her relations with family too and her finances for a Gym she was warned about by her trainer and even the guy who hastened the mess Veronica is in. And again, Samson himself stated that Vera could still start anew fresh, it is not too late for that. She could still have/live her dream without competing at PC.
So sorry, but for me this makes her reason for being at PC even worse than Feli´s. Felicia might be eccentric with an eccentric reason to compete, but she stands to win substancially if she wins in the end and even a loss might bring her at least some of the influence network she aspires to. She will not be worse off either way. Rosi simply has no other option to raise the needed money quickly enough.
And what IMO shines also through during the game, is that Sam has a big crush for Veronica. Most of what he did is because he could not land with her. He might be a dick and ass, but in a certain way those two deserve each other. I look forward to see if there is a possibility to couple them up, if Vera does not win.
Hi! I see where you are coming from! It is not that the "pragmatic" Edwin does not feel sympathy for Veronica, he gives her a needed hug without question, but what he learns about her motives getting into the competition "disappoints" him.I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel about a character (even my favorite), but I do think that's a very ungenerous view of Veronica's backstory. We have no first hand knowledge of her marriage or her wife, so I don't think we should take Kat's word that Veronica was ultimately at fault for the failure. It's possible, but we don't know enough to be certain yet. Veronica might only have thrown herself fully into saving the gym after the divorce because it was all she had left. Even if the gym played a large part in the failure of their marriage, without knowing what Liliana's objections to the gym were, we can't really be sure how valid they were and thus how much blame she should bear for any strain those objections caused.
Meanwhile on the gym itself, I think you're giving too much deference to Samson and not enough to Veronica. He said her coach (Danny) was reluctant to burden her with the gym, which you take as a sign she knew it was a bad investment going in. But it's possible Samson dissuaded Danny from conveying those concerns to Veronica, either by convincing him the gym really was viable or by paying him off to keep his mouth shut ("A sick man with debts is easily persuaded"). That would certainly be more compatible with what Veronica herself said in the sauna; she said it didn't occur to her that being uncrowded was a bad sign, not that she ignored bad signs she was aware of. Given how self-critical she is in that scene, I'm skeptical she was covering for her mistakes.
Likewise, just because the gym was struggling under Danny doesn't mean it was a genuine millstone. Veronica mentioned several problems beyond low membership, and those tie in well with the shenanigans Samson mentions (like directing her to his buddy's leasing company). Given how hard Samson claimed to have worked sabotaging her, I'm not going to assume Veronica would have failed simply because the gym was losing money before she bought it. More importantly, Veronica specifically says her problems with the gym largely predate meeting Samson and we know they met at an industry show for gym equipment. If Samson really did persuade Danny to give her a bum deal, the amount of money she was losing *at the start* could be far more than just those caused by the gym itself.
As far as Veronica being friends with Samson, I see no evidence of that and what evidence we do have suggests the opposite. She says she initially thought of him as a "run-of-the-mill narcissistic asshole." She got drunk with him when they first met, but the context (as far as she says) was discussing business. Samson's side of their early history is less detailed, but it mostly focuses on knowing of her through Danny. If he was already manipulating her before they actually met, I very much doubt he had any interest in befriending her.
Of course none of this means you need to feel sympathy for Veronica, and I certainly agree her reason for entering the competition is much less serious than Rosalind's. I just think you might be underestimating how far Samson has gone to sabotage her.
Ok, dude. You just continue to think that the only way to make a good game is to cater to all your personal preferences and to none of the preferences you don’t have, and we can part ways.Everything else is a you said is a valid opinion to have so I dont think there is anything to gain by further discussion on it however that is a really bad take about not only VN's but GAMES as a whole. Beyond the debate of whether or not PC has made the player "choose their route" or if people have decided to play high/low due to their own preferences, I struggle to think of almost any games even AAA ones or huge VN that dont nudge you towards an ending despite you have choice in the narrative beforehand. I highly doubt any games on this site fit that description but regardless please dont post a list of all the games you can think of as I dont want to derail the discussion into a debate on how videos games have narrative limits and are written by people who have natural biases.
I grow more and thankful every day that my preferred play style seems to be what players are "being nudged towards". I can really just sit back and enjoy the ride, I didnt even think his introspection was out of place this update because it is what I would be doing if I were in their position
I think we need to discern what kind of nudging we’re talking about:I'd say it's more that the game nudges us away from the extremes. After all, we have 'extreme' kindness options like not cheating with Mina or refusing to placate Kathleen's lust for flamboyant cruelty, and I don't think the game is weighted towards them.
I don’t disagree with anything here, but I do want to point out that while kind/altruistic actions usually ingrate you with the person you’re being kind to, it also tend to have a cost in the sense that you have to give up something of yours (time, resources, opportunity and so on) in order to give that to the other. If anything, games have a tendency to over incentivise kindness/goodness, as the players seldom have to bear the cost that the kindness/goodness would entail for the character they’re playing. This is something to be vary of, if you’re making a game where you want the asshole route to be as rewarding as the white knight route.IMHO the reason the game seems to be nudging to the kind side of the line is because the society norm is for people to be empathetic and well behaved. The MC often struggles with latter (especially in his youth) and seems capable of the former only when he has a personal connection to the other person, but he knows he needs to fit in with the outside world. So it's natural that he would react warily to actions that might cause him to fall off the wagon and threaten his place in the world; even if he ultimately decides to take the action, he needs to think it through first. Whereas being extra nice to people rarely does long-term harm to your reputation (though it's worth noting he does still worry about how helping Rosalind and Veronica might hurt his standing with the Club when those options come up).
You make a really good point here, so far, almost all possible relationship points squandered due to high toughness/depraved choices are because those directly affected by these choices won't like Edwin as much as they would if he acted kinder towards them personally. So far, it’s mainly Veronica that you can loose a bunch of points to by acting depraved/tough even though she isn’t personally affected by your actions. Even Hana mostly just talk a good game. As long as you don’t contradict her when talking with her (no reason to do that just because you’re on the high toughness path, I’d consider that naturally suboptimal choices, as there is no cost for Edwin to simply agree with her), you won’t lose out on her affinity points. I’ve combined a maximum toughness playthrough (as in having reached the cap in toughness) with maximum affinity on the Hana path.Also, I think it's possible we're overstating how much 'high Toughness' options hurt you with the girls. The girls often react poorly to Tough options that are directed against them, but that's to be expected. It's less common for us to lose points by being Tough to someone else; I think most of those are Hana, followed by Veronica. For Hana, I'd say it's fair to say that she's just incompatible with high-Toughness behavior (at least unless the Club winds up changing her). For Veronica, I'm not as sure. She definitely doesn't like the Club, so any Toughness actions that toe the Club line will earn her ire. But I'm not sure she'd be all that upset in a case where the MC unconcerned with the problems of a house girl or one of the other carnations.
Basically, my point is that I think it might be possible for us to stay on the path for most girls even with a relatively high Toughness. I think our ultimate decision about what we do with the Club will have a much more profound affect on those paths. The 'darker' options will probably end (or hopelessly twist) most of those paths. There will probably be a lot of overlap between the dark options and high Toughness, but I'd expect it's still possible to pick most of the dark options even with mid-range Toughness.
I agree about Veronica. She have a chip on her shoulder regarding PC and Kathleen, which affect how she feels about people doing the bidding of PC/Kathleen. But I don’t view her as a crusader for good (that’s more Hanas role) and on the contrary, she seems to get off on a bit of dominance herself, as long as she’s the one in the driver seat. Her almost predatory reaction towards teenage Mina, when you bring Mina to the gym, also tells a different story, than that of a morally upstanding citizen. But alas, this doesn’t matter if you borked your chances with her by playing along with Kathleens depraved games, because I don’t think we’re going to get some “you and me are not so different” redemption moment any time soon. If your affinity rating already is low enough to lock you out of certain actions, you’re probably done for as far as romancing her goes, and that's where I am at my current playthrough even though "my" Edwin has tried his best to keep her happy without turning to much into a sofite himself.For Veronica, I'm not as sure. She definitely doesn't like the Club, so any Toughness actions that toe the Club line will earn her ire. But I'm not sure she'd be all that upset in a case where the MC unconcerned with the problems of a house girl or one of the other carnations.
Agree on this to. Poor Veronica.I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel about a character (even my favorite), but I do think that's a very ungenerous view of Veronica's backstory. We have no first hand knowledge of her marriage or her wife, so I don't think we should take Kat's word that Veronica was ultimately at fault for the failure. It's possible, but we don't know enough to be certain yet. Veronica might only have thrown herself fully into saving the gym after the divorce because it was all she had left. Even if the gym played a large part in the failure of their marriage, without knowing what Liliana's objections to the gym were, we can't really be sure how valid they were and thus how much blame she should bear for any strain those objections caused.
Meanwhile on the gym itself, I think you're giving too much deference to Samson and not enough to Veronica. He said her coach (Danny) was reluctant to burden her with the gym, which you take as a sign she knew it was a bad investment going in. But it's possible Samson dissuaded Danny from conveying those concerns to Veronica, either by convincing him the gym really was viable or by paying him off to keep his mouth shut ("A sick man with debts is easily persuaded"). That would certainly be more compatible with what Veronica herself said in the sauna; she said it didn't occur to her that being uncrowded was a bad sign, not that she ignored bad signs she was aware of. Given how self-critical she is in that scene, I'm skeptical she was covering for her mistakes.
Likewise, just because the gym was struggling under Danny doesn't mean it was a genuine millstone. Veronica mentioned several problems beyond low membership, and those tie in well with the shenanigans Samson mentions (like directing her to his buddy's leasing company). Given how hard Samson claimed to have worked sabotaging her, I'm not going to assume Veronica would have failed simply because the gym was losing money before she bought it. More importantly, Veronica specifically says her problems with the gym largely predate meeting Samson and we know they met at an industry show for gym equipment. If Samson really did persuade Danny to give her a bum deal, the amount of money she was losing *at the start* could be far more than just those caused by the gym itself.
As far as Veronica being friends with Samson, I see no evidence of that and what evidence we do have suggests the opposite. She says she initially thought of him as a "run-of-the-mill narcissistic asshole." She got drunk with him when they first met, but the context (as far as she says) was discussing business. Samson's side of their early history is less detailed, but it mostly focuses on knowing of her through Danny. If he was already manipulating her before they actually met, I very much doubt he had any interest in befriending her.
Of course none of this means you need to feel sympathy for Veronica, and I certainly agree her reason for entering the competition is much less serious than Rosalind's. I just think you might be underestimating how far Samson has gone to sabotage her.
I'm not the best to answer this as I haven't maximized Veronicas affinity myself, but there is both readable walkthroughs and a walkthrough mod on the first page of this thread, that probably can help you.How do I become Veronica's lover? I've tried replaying the entire game twice, but I can't figure out what I'm messing up
This is a quick reply, since I am on a coffee pause and don´t have time to write a full essay.I think we need to discern what kind of nudging we’re talking about:
The main problem, as I see it, lies with 1, if it is done poorly, so that the illusion breaks, 2 regardless of reasons and 3 if consequences are opaque, making it difficult for the player to figure out which choices/paths are suboptimal, easily leading to dead ends, where the player unintentionally has failed all or most viable routes.
- There is deliberate nudging on the part of the devs, because the devs want to give the players illusion of choice but steer the outcome of the game in a canonical direction,
- there’s accidental nudging due to bad planning and then
- there is “natural” nudging due to not every choice and every possible path being equal.
Having some choices be suboptimal in themselves is no problem as I see it and I think the game has plenty of those, as there, for example, are conversations where the “right” answer nets you affinity points, whereas the wrong answer gives you nothing and none of the answers forces the player down a particular path.
Now, PC is constructed in a way as to give the players the choice between a more moral route (I say “more”, because it’s simply not possible to play 100 percent moral, because then Edwin wouldn’t be working at PC at all, he is an inherently flawed character) and a more depraved route, usually, but not always, measured in toughness-points. The more moral route will terminate in Ewdin leaving PC, whereas the more depraved route will terminate with Edwin staying at PC (and possible advancing into a leadership role). According to TD1900, the devs actively strive to not make the more moral route a suboptimal one as measured in sex scenes. From that I think we can infer that they also don’t intend to make the more depraved/more tough route suboptimal.
Fair enough, if that is what the Devs have said, then I've missunderstood leave or stay being connected to morality/toughness. It doesn't really take away from my conclusions though, as that was a sidenote. You're more than welcome to explain where your other disagreements lie.This is a quick reply, since I am on a coffee pause and don´t have time to write a full essay.
I definitely question most of your conclusions and even the ones I agree with, I think you put a too negative spin on them. One example of your conclusions being flawed is that you state that the "more moral path" will end with Edwin leaving PC and the "more hard path" will end in him staying.
This is most definitely flawed since TD1900 stated more than once over the time PC is in development, that there will be endings with "nice Edwin" leaving AND STAYING with the Club (with one of the main LIs or single) and that "assh... Edwin" will likewise have endings where he leaves and stays with Pale Carnations (also either with a LI or single).
It was also implied that "mischievious Edwin"(a middleground Edwin, nice but able to make hard decisions if he thinks them to be the best solution) will have the same options.
Can't yet, Friend is max for now.How do I become Veronica's lover? I've tried replaying the entire game twice, but I can't figure out what I'm messing up
Hi! I might do that, but such explanations would come on sunday the earliest, too much others things on plate. But your questions about the love interests of Edwin can be answered rather fast.Fair enough, if that is what the Devs have said, then I've missunderstood leave or stay being connected to morality/toughness. It doesn't really take away from my conclusions though, as that was a sidenote. You're more than welcome to explain where your other disagreements lie.
Other than that, has the devs said anything about who will be potential LIs when the game ends? I'm wondering if it might be the case that the carnations and Kathleen are not real LIs in the sense that you can end up boyfriend-girlfriend with them at the end. Maybe the only real LIs are Mina and Hana?
Do you mean in the Stats window? Or do you mean just being able to "do stuff" with her?How do I become Veronica's lover? I've tried replaying the entire game twice, but I can't figure out what I'm messing up
You salty!You drew alot of conclusion without having reading the pubically available stuff the devs have posted here. It took me a few seconds to look for "potential LI" in this thread and found this
Well, someone just told me that no quality game could ever let the players decide for themselves what kind of ending they might want, they need to be "nudged" in the right direction. So, if the devs think that two of the possible six LIs are preferable, of course they should restrict the game in such a manner so that that is what the players will end up with.TD liked this post so it is very safe to say that the contestants are LI otherwise "if they are emotionally fragile then they should avoid the contestants" would be a pointless sentence not to mention a game having 4 of the 6 LI be fake outs/depressing/bad ends would be an EXTREMELY bold choice in a (very compelling) adult visual novel