VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[TD1900]

Ok, i just reveled the penultimate woman available for the game. W. T. F.? Really, again, what's this obsession about banging mature women??? No that i got anything against women in their 30's or 40's. That's my age and the age of my mate and that's quite normal i would say. But when i was 21???? Really??? I could have had and i had women in their early 20's or even teenagers. And i should have been there going after a 40 something women with children almost my age? Com'on. Thanks haven there are 2, and i say 2 out of a full roster of ladies, girls with a plausible age to pursuite.

Just why?

Even the setup makes little sense. Al the rich and powerful old maniacs patrons probably bang models in their 20's all day long and they need to go to this all powerful cash packed shady brothel that can't find a girl to give out who's younger then 30?? com'on.

It's quite simple: I like (increasingly-not-so) older women, so I wrote a story around them.

So, if I like 'em, I don't think it strains credibility that the patrons of the club would too. They're rich old perverts who like to trample on the sanctity of motherhood and see both sides of the Madonna-whore complex intersect. They want to take a fully formed person, not a young woman still figuring things out, and humiliate them.

Assuming they're "banging models in their 20's all day long", why would they go to a brothel to get more of the same?

 

[Machete]

Assuming they're "banging models in their 20's all day long", why would they go to a brothel to get more of the same?

Good point for the carnations, but i still think it works poorly for the age of the MC. It would have worked better, imho, if the MC was a later age man fallen out of fortune. It would have addedd a layer of drama. A 21 old boy who want to be a doctor but he doesn't want to pay the tuition have a pletora of other option. A later age man jobless could have had the dilemma of a "me or them" type of situation and the 30-40 ladies would have looked much more interesting. If any of them looked older then 25, by the way

 

[starkj]

Nah MCs age is fine, otherwise it probably wouldnt work with Mina and Hana and his background story with Ian, also its nice to see older women like the 3 carnations falling for a younger guy.

 

[Idontplay]

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly the MC is actually a 20 (circa) years old boy, who want become a doctor but has some issue with the payment of the tuition.

 

[Machete]

Nah MCs age is fine, otherwise it probably wouldnt work with Mina and Hana and his background story with Ian, also its nice to see older womeng like the 3 carnations falling for a younger guy.

That's ok, an i think the fact that the 3 carnations might be older desperate women adds to the depravity of the enviroment. Don't take me wrong, i'm liking this game. And it's overall ok that the MC is young.

It's the rest of the cast that bothers me. All the house girls (was it the name?) are 30+, the other notable characters are mature women, all that's left are the best friends girlfriend and the barmaid. Oh, right, there is also the guitar girl. Only 2 of them are love interest and i think the guitar girl won't be available as a side fuck (i'm still early in the game).

I think it's unbalanced.

Apart from this, it's an interesting, psychological well build, situation.

 

[Lykanz]

Ok, i just reveled the penultimate woman available for the game. W. T. F.? Really, again, what's this obsession about banging mature women??? No that i got anything against women in their 30's or 40's. That's my age and the age of my mate and that's quite normal i would say. But when i was 21???? Really??? I could have had and i had women in their early 20's or even teenagers. And i should have been there going after a 40 something women with children almost my age? Com'on. Thanks haven there are 2, and i say 2 out of a full roster of ladies, girls with a plausible age to pursuite.

Just why?

Even the setup makes little sense. Al the rich and powerful old maniacs patrons probably bang models in their 20's all day long and they need to go to this all powerful cash packed shady brothel that can't find a girl to give out who's younger then 30?? com'on.

Good thing that in this games even women almost 60 don't look a year older then 25 just with increasingly huge boobs. Spoiler allert. Ageing doesn't work like that.

Wait, what?

You mean tits don't get bigger as the girl gets older???

My entire life was a fucking lie!

 

[TD1900]

Good point for the carnations, but i still think it works poorly for the age of the MC. It would have worked better, imho, if the MC was a later age man fallen out of fortune. It would have addedd a layer of drama. A 21 old boy who want to be a doctor but he doesn't want to pay the tuition have a pletora of other option. A later age man jobless could have had the dilemma of a "me or them" type of situation and the 30-40 ladies would have looked much more interesting. If any of them looked older then 25, by the way

A story with an older man would've been an entirely different character and dynamic. Edwin's current age is in service to the game's themes and relationships (both male and female). Pale Carnations is a corruption story. Edwin being a young man makes him more malleable to the influence of the club, the whims of his best friend, the tutelage of her former mentor / would be mentors, and contextualizes his relationship/reliance on his mother and his knowledge of her past.

An older man finally giving prey to his whims would work, but the other supporting elements would be less rich in my opinion.

 

[Vakkyr]

Only stumbled upon this Game recently and wanted to say it suprised me. I didn't expect a good Story regarding the topics this Game is thematizing. So it was a pleasant suprise to experience actual great Writing and nicely build up Characters so far. Furthermore I'm impressed of the Graphics Quality considering with what tools the Game is created.

Only thing that bothered/ made me sad me so far was how Lucy was treated after loosing to Veronica. She was so quickly tossed aside and given probably the most gruesome fate of all the Women, that it pained it me a bit, especially as it seems that the MC has no chance in helping her even if the player would want to.

I get, from a Story perspective, why she couldn't win. Being too similar to Rose, and with Veronica (on paper) promising more variety and a sense of fresh air to the Story made it very unlikely for Lucy to win.

But as far as i had Time to play (had to stop right before the first Competition Event) Veronica falls really short on this promises in my opinion. As of right now she is not much more as a walking cliché of the "Strong on the Outside but with a soft core" Type of Character with a (for me) boring reason to participate. That may change as i progress further in the Story, but right now i can't stop myself from thinking that Lucy with her reason and background would have been (despite her similarities with Rose) a much more interesting Character to explore with much more potential for conflicts and drama then Veronica (right now).

Looking forward to playing again as soon as i have the Time to see how the Story and Characters will develop, just needed to get this thoughts out of my Head

 

[TD1900]

Only stumbled upon this Game recently and wanted to say it suprised me. I didn't expect a good Story regarding the topics this Game is thematizing. So it was a pleasant suprise to experience actual great Writing and nicely build up Characters so far. Furthermore I'm impressed of the Graphics Quality considering with what tools the Game is created.

Only thing that bothered/ made me sad me so far was how Lucy was treated after loosing to Veronica. She was so quickly tossed aside and given probably the most gruesome fate of all the Women, that it pained it me a bit, especially as it seems that the MC has no chance in helping her even if the player would want to.

I get, from a Story perspective, why she couldn't win. Being too similar to Rose, and with Veronica (on paper) promising more variety and a sense of fresh air to the Story made it very unlikely for Lucy to win.

But as far as i had Time to play (had to stop right before the first Competition Event) Veronica falls really short on this promises in my opinion. As of right now she is not much more as a walking cliché of the "Strong on the Outside but with a soft core" Type of Character with a (for me) boring reason to participate. That may change as i progress further in the Story, but right now i can't stop myself from thinking that Lucy with her reason and background would have been (despite her similarities with Rose) a much more interesting Character to explore with much more potential for conflicts and drama then Veronica (right now).

Looking forward to playing again as soon as i have the Time to see how the Story and Characters will develop, just needed to get this thoughts out of my Head

Oh yeah, I partially agree. Rosalind and Lucy would have made nice foils for one another and would have been a good source of personal tension and drama. There's a lot to work with there.

I do hope that once you see Veronica's circumstances further develop, you'll find her more sympathetic.

 

[Vakkyr]

Oh yeah, I partially agree. Rosalind and Lucy would have made nice foils for one another and would have been a good source of personal tension and drama. There's a lot to work with there.


I do hope that once you see Veronica's circumstances further develop, you'll find her more sympathetic.

I don't dislike Veronica or find her unsympathetic. It's more right now she lacks uniqueness and an Interesting Story for her Character (for me). I really like her personality and she has probably the cutest face ingame, i'm a sucker for Redheads with Green Eyes I expect her Story to pick up later on it just makes the way Lucy was handled much harder to accept right now.

I feel sorry for what happened to her after the Competition, mainly because i deem it unnecessary gruel for a Character like her. Besides it feels like a wasted potential to toss her aside so easily while she could still contribute much more to the Story and Character development, even if she is not one of the 3 Carnations.

I personally think Veronica is a better fit (which has nothing to due with liking tall, strong, red heads) because on top of Lucy and Rose being very similar Lucy's situation is much less severe than Rose's. Lucy wants to get her son a specific school, Rose wants to avoid debt/keep her daughters life "normal". Lucy has a living/working husband (they even have a "sex life") Rose's husband is the reason she is in debt and is no way in the picture. Lucy (as far as we know) does not have a loan shark hounding her at home, Rose does. The only thing that Lucy has over rose is the person at the club who seems to be most interested in her is way worse (guy who likes boobs/milk vs shitty high school person who works at her sons school)

I believe that as well, although i don't think Lucy is in a less severe Situation or has a "less noble" Reason for participating.
Both, Rose and Lucy, are participating in this for their Childs. Both want to archive a normal/good live for them with this. Rose by getting her debt paid and Lucy by giving her son the best starting position for his later life.

She probably sees on a daily basis, especially as a Teacher, what an advantage being on this School is. Not so much the Education but more the friendships and acquaintances you make on such a prestigious School that can set you up for life. So i don't see it as a less important or "less noble" reason for her to participating when you look at it from a parents prespective.

All while Lucy seems to be stuck in a Dead/Unhappy Marriage that she probably only holds on to, to play "Happy Family" for her son. But that is only speculation because in the end Lucy simply was not given enough Time for us to have learned enough about her to assess this sincerely.

Furthermore i think she has the worst fate so far with being pressured/forced into becomming a House Girl. Where every club member can use and abuse her in every way he wants. And not just for the one Night a Week if i remembered Kathleen right but for the whole Summer.
What that sick ugly bastard of a colleague of her surely will do at any chance, we have seen he loves to hurt and abuse her at the competition, all while she will have to see and interact with him on a daily basis at work where i would assume he would try things aswell keeping his character in mind.
I wouldn't be suprised if the sick Bastard had falsified her Sons results as well to making her desperate enough to do his bidding.

In the End i'm happy with the 3 Carnations but think it was a mistake to toss Lucy aside so quickly instead of giving her a bigger role and letting the MC interact/Help her like the other Girls. She simply don't "deserves" what was done to her in my Book.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

Furthermore i think she has the worst fate so far with being pressured/forced into becomming a House Girl. Where every club member can use and abuse her in every way he wants. And not just for the one Night a Week if i remembered Kathleen right but for the whole Summer.
What that sick ugly bastard of a colleague of her surely will do at any chance, we have seen he loves to hurt and abuse her at the competition, all while she will have to see and interact with him on a daily basis at work where i would assume he would try things aswell keeping his character in mind.
I wouldn't be suprised if the sick Bastard had falsified her Sons results as well to making her desperate enough to do his bidding.

At least she is an employee that gets paid. Same cannot be said about the carnations - 2 of them will walk out with nothing. But yeah it sounds horrible working in the brothel.

 

[Vakkyr]

At least she is an employee that gets paid. Same cannot be said about the carnations - 2 of them will walk out with nothing. But yeah it sounds horrible working in the brothel.

Please tell me you don't see this really as an valid argument. You can't really think she's better off just because she has her Teaching job...

Haven't completed a playthrough yet so maybe i'm lacking some Informaion but i thought at least Rose would have a job simply because of her daughter. Can't imagine from what she would pay their living expenses if she had no job. While Felicia (as far as i know right now) could simply going back to being the Trophy Wife. Only one walking away to an ruined life could be Veronica with her being selfemployed.

But i probably have to complete my playthrough to have a real opinion on this detail. It's just that the whole Lisa thing spoils my mood to play further a little bit right now.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

Please tell me you don't see this really as an valid argument. You can't really think she's better off just because she has her Teaching job...

Not trying to argue with you. I just think it is stupid that the carnations are subjecting themselves to all this BS while there is such a high probability of failure.

I understand why Rosieland does it she is desperate and she is in physical danger. But I think Felicia and Veronica are stupid. Felicia needs to discover onlyfans and veronica needs to learn to suck it up - businesses fail all the time. What happened to her sucks as it is out of her control but it is not the end of the world if you work a job you dont wholeheartedly love. Most people in the world are in that position. If there was some sort of guarantee of a 2nd and 3rd place consolation prize I would be a lot more sympathetic to her cause.

I also find it hard to sympathize with Lucy and by extension Victoria. I think Lucy's son and Edwin would both be fine if they chose not to do what they did sure Edwin might be better off now but I think he would be just fine if Victoria chose not to do porn. They willingly walked into the situation they are in and Lucy still has the option to walk away. Will her son be worse off if she walks away? Maybe but he will still be fine. Since she chooses to do this and has the option to back off I dont care as much about what happens for her as compared to people who are being forced into things they dislike because people are taking advantage of their desperation such as Rosie and by extension Hana (although of course Hana's position is completely different and much better given she is essentially becoming a millionaire for free but its not hard to imagine her as a carnation in an alternate universe where august is not her father because she has to do what august says or her mum will die).

While I absolutely hate Kath, I can sometimes relate to the things she tells the characters.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Not trying to argue with you. I just think it is stupid that the carnations are subjecting themselves to all this BS while there is such a high probability of failure.

I understand why Rosieland does it she is desperate and she is in physical danger. But I think Felicia and Veronica are stupid. Felicia needs to discover onlyfans and veronica needs to learn to suck it up - businesses fail all the time. What happened to her sucks as it is out of her control but it is not the end of the world if you work a job you dont wholeheartedly love. Most people in the world are in that position.

I also find it hard to sympathize with Lucy and by extension Victoria. I think Lucy's son and Edwin would both be fine if they chose not to do what they did sure Edwin might be better off now but I think he would be just fine if Victoria chose not to do porn. They willingly walked into the situation they are in and Lucy still has the option to walk away.

While I absolutely hate Kath, I can sometimes relate to the things she tells the characters.

Disagree.

Rosalind is literally being stalked by a loan shark (and his goons?) because of a huge debt her shitty husband made. She is under threat of violence coming to herself and her daughter if she doesn't pay him the money.

Veronica is trying to save a gym that it is more than a simple business but a part of her life, because of her mentor. Meanwhile her stalker, Samson, has been lurking around Veronica for years and sabotaging her efforts just so he can "break her in".

Felicia needs to discover that her biggest assets are her mind and her desire to do some good out there. But she spent so much time playing the dumb bimbo that now she is full of self doubt and spiraling out of control while trying to find financial independence.

Lucy and Victoria wanted better lives for their kids. And in Victoria's case she was literally left on her own with a really young kid after her husband died by his family.

They are far from stupid. Those women are trapped in these situations and being feed of by a bunch of assholes and likely a few sociopaths (was in Victoria's case).
Also Kathleen gets off on inflicting physical and emotional pain on others so i would note most things she says are likely distorted to that end.

 

[321654]

The thing is Lucy wants to send her son to a SPECIFIC high school (which happens to be the most prestigious in the state). We know that he was not able to get in based on his academics/sports/connections otherwise Lucy would not need to be here. The first issue with this is that it is just one high school we have in story confirmation that there are others, the second is whose to say that Lucys kid would do well/finish at the school? That means objectively she is doing carnation stuff for just a CHANCE for her son to attend the school with no guarantee beyond that to compare Rose wants her problem to be objectively solved. (wannts x amount of dollars to 100% pay off loans/debt)

Her doing this makes even less sense when you consider the fact that we know there is a very prestigious college which Mihir is a part of. Unless the ONLY way to into Mihir's College is to attend that specific high school then Lucy is barking up the wrong tree. Assume that Lucys kid gets into the best high school......is she going to be back doing carnation stuff when he goes to college? Will he suddnely be good enough to get by on his own (while his mom is doing prostitution stuff every weekened)?

Also generally there is a reason that schools have standards, the classes are set to those standards. The school does not magically make people smart or capable so her son is far more likely to fail/drop out than he is to succeed. She is paying a high price for something that is never going to happen, so far she is most tragic character imo.

 

[Vakkyr]

The thing is Lucy wants to send her son to a SPECIFIC high school (which happens to be the most prestigious in the state). We know that he was not able to get in based on his academics/sports/connections otherwise Lucy would not need to be here. The first issue with this is that it is just one high school we have in story confirmation that there are others, the second is whose to say that Lucys kid would do well/finish at the school? That means objectively she is doing carnation stuff for just a CHANCE for her son to attend the school with no guarantee beyond that to compare Rose wants her problem to be objectively solved. (wannts x amount of dollars to 100% pay off loans/debt)

Her doing this makes even less sense when you consider the fact that we know there is a very prestigious college which Mihir is a part of. Unless the ONLY way to into Mihir's College is to attend that specific high school then Lucy is barking up the wrong tree. Assume that Lucys kid gets into the best high school......is she going to be back doing carnation stuff when he goes to college? Will he suddnely be good enough to get by on his own (while his mom is doing prostitution stuff every weekened)?

Also generally there is a reason that schools have standards, the classes are set to those standards. The school does not magically make people smart or capable so her son is far more likely to fail/drop out than he is to succeed. She is paying a high price for something that is never going to happen, so far she is most tragic character imo.

The thing is, the only Information that her Son was not good enough comes from a highly suspicious Person. The sick fucker of her colleague has shown how much he loves to hurt her. He would say/do anything to get her in a position where he has power over her. So i call Bullshit on everyything he said about her and i'm sure he meddled with her Sons Test results. Besides that, there was simply not enough time invested into Lucys Character so we could learn more about her and assess such Details with more certainty.

The more that i think about Lucy the more pains me her lot. And the lesser get's my interest to continue the game despite how much i like it otherwise. Argh damn why do i fall so easily for fictional characters and care for them...

 

[Bill Temple]

Also generally there is a reason that schools have standards, the classes are set to those standards. The school does not magically make people smart or capable so her son is far more likely to fail/drop out than he is to succeed. She is paying a high price for something that is never going to happen, so far she is most tragic character imo.

I think you all misunderstand private prep schools. First of all, with better student-to-teacher ratios the quality of the education is better. Such schools can and do put more time and resources into bringing the laggards back into the fold than can public schools. It's not magic, but it will better educate the less competent students. Second, classes are actually a bit easier at "elite" schools, due to reasons four and five below. Third, they typically don't "allow" students to drop out as this looks very bad to prospective customers. Rich people have idiot children too, and they want assurances that the school will force their child to become at least competent. Fourth, having on your CV and college applications that you graduated from a prestigious institution increases acceptance chances for further education or employment, regardless of whether that prestigious reputation is well founded. Fifth, there are often arrangements between preparatory academies and certain post-secondary institutions, usually informal, that all but guarantee graduates from Academy X are accepted to University Y. The point is that the connections made at such schools are the real value, not the superior education.

Source: Me. At least half of my classmates at an "elite", private, highly selective university were from "elite", private, highly selective private schools or private prep schools from Boston to Miami to Redmond to San Diego. Most of them were mediocre students of unexceptional intelligence and average study skills, a few were incomparable imbeciles, and not many were geniuses, but they were (and still are) fucking fun to party with. The only dropouts were people with severe psychological problems. No one was flunked out.

 

[Vakkyr]

I think you all misunderstand private prep schools. First of all, with better student-to-teacher ratios the quality of the education is better. Such schools can and do put more time and resources into bringing the laggards back into the fold than can public schools. It's not magic, but it will better educate the less competent students. Second, classes are actually a bit easier at "elite" schools, due to reasons four and five below. Third, they typically don't "allow" students to drop out as this looks very bad to prospective customers. Rich people have idiot children too, and they want assurances that the school will force their child to become at least competent. Fourth, having on your CV and college applications that you graduated from a prestigious institution increases acceptance chances for further education or employment, regardless of whether that prestigious reputation is well founded. Fifth, there are often arrangements between preparatory academies and certain post-secondary institutions, usually informal, that all but guarantee graduates from Academy X are accepted to University Y. The point is that the connections made at such schools are the real value, not the superior education.

Source: Me. At least half of my classmates at an "elite", private, highly selective university were from "elite", private, highly selective private schools or private prep schools from Boston to Miami to Redmond to San Diego. Most of them were mediocre students of unexceptional intelligence and average study skills, a few were incomparable imbeciles, and not many were geniuses, but they were (and still are) fucking fun to party with. The only dropouts were people with severe psychological problems. No one was flunked out.

Thank you for this. This where exactly my thoughts on why i can relate to Lucys wish for her Son to get on this specific School.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

Disagree.

Rosalind is literally being stalked by a loan shark (and his goons?) because of a huge debt her shitty husband made. She is under threat of violence coming to herself and her daughter if she doesn't pay him the money.

Veronica is trying to save a gym that it is more than a simple business but a part of her life, because of her mentor. Meanwhile her stalker, Samson, has been lurking around Veronica for years and sabotaging her efforts just so he can "break her in".

Felicia needs to discover that her biggest assets are her mind and her desire to do some good out there. But she spent so much time playing the dumb bimbo that now she is full of self doubt and spiraling out of control while trying to find financial independence.

Lucy and Victoria wanted better lives for their kids. And in Victoria's case she was literally left on her own with a really young kid after her husband died by his family.

They are far from stupid. Those women are trapped in these situations and being feed of by a bunch of assholes and likely a few sociopaths (was in Victoria's case).
Also Kathleen gets off on inflicting physical and emotional pain on others so i would note most things she says are likely distorted to that end.

Let's agree to disagree then.

I just happen to think being in physical danger is a bit more valid reason to subject yourself to the degradation you face as a carnation than any of those other things.

Do all of them have reasons to want to participate in a get rich quick scheme? Maybe. However in my opinion there is a tradeoff between shit you go through + the risk vs the reward you are promised and I think for every single person there except Rosalind, the shit they go through and the risk they are taking does not justify the reward they are guaranteed to get (it might for the winner but remember that 2/3 of participants are losing meaning 2 of them are degrading themselves for nothing in return).

As for Lucy and Victoria, yes they want better lives for their kids and they understood the cost of wanting that. They willingly paid the price so I do not feel bad for whatever happened/happens to them.

Kathleen may get off on inflicting emotional pain on others but the reason it works I think is because there is a hint of truth to it.

 

[Vakkyr]

So you are willing to assume that someone who works at a high school is somehow sabotaging Lucy's sons grades at a different school? The guy had no power over the son prior to this point and if his grades were good (kathleen is the only one who has said they were not good enough) I doubt one guy would be able to say "He has good grades and they could pay tuition but I dont want him to attend because sex club". Lucy's plan is just as permanent as Veronica's they are both just band aids because Veronica could easily fall back into debt and Lucy's son could easily not take advantage of going to a good high school.

I never got the idea Kathleen was talking about Grades from a prior School but instead of the Results of the Entrance Exam. Simply because if Lucys Son would not have the Grades to be Accepted in the first place it would make no sense for him taking an Entrance Exam. Maybe if he where a rich Kid, but then Lucy wouldn't be here. Having the expected Grades usually doesn't assures you a place in the School, it only allows you to take an Entrance Exam, and this is where her Son odly didn't got the needed Points/Grades. At least i understood it this way.

So yes i asume the sick fucker meddled with her Sons results in the Entrance Exam to get her in a desperate enough position where she would accept his offer. Regarding the "Bandaid thing" this goes for nearly everyone/everything. Nothing is ever 100% safe.

As for Veronica, yes, maybe it is "stupid", and if you look at it from a pragmatic viewpoint she probably should give up and start fresh. But then there is this thing called Emotions and Memories. So yes maybe here reasons are Stupid for some people, but i can still relate to her wish. Because this place, for her, is so much more then only a Gym. It holds so many dear memmories to her that she just can't give up on it, and to this i can relate to.