VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Machete]

A little note for the Devs. I believe it was established early in the game that Rosalind's daughter was 13, you may want to review the dialog.

 

[starkj]

pass out at 4 or 5 am in the morning but mina bond was at 23 then she drop to 20 because of the lie to (cover killian ass) i don't know if it effect of their (mina) RP but it currently at 7, and i belive i have get mina higher then i the other girls right for the half nude sense on the bed?

I went full Mina so i didnt cover for Ian, he fucked up so it's his problem, i think i even maxed her out, i only not did her bi-curious on this run.

 

[Vakkyr]

It may be simplistic however that is still my opinion. I feel like only Hana and Rosalind are really being forced. I feel like the stakes are a lot higher for them and they are on a time limit.

Felicia I will simply never understand yes being a trophy wife sucks but given her position + contacts I believe she has multiple options. Even if she somehow wins there is no way anybody in the club is going to have any respect for her - Kath mentioned even she has trouble with this despite being an owner and because of that Felicia will always be in a losing position even if she wins. Veronica's motives I can understand but I think she still has the option to walk away without it impacting her life other than the fact that she might not be passionate about her new job which is not the end of the world.

I can respect Lucy and Victoria's decision to do what is necessary but I do not have a lot of sympathy for them because I believe they have the choice to walk away. Unless we get in game confirmation that they had absolutely no choice (and Lucy's son studying in the 2nd best school is NOT the same as her not having any choice), I will continue to be unsympathetic to whatever happens to them. Like someone else mentioned it may be a coldhearted way of thinking but I feel like they made a choice to do this and they need to accept the consequences of their decision. I guess Victoria's situation may be a bit different given we only have Edwin's perspective and since he was a child he may not have had a full understanding about her motives however unless we have in game events confirming she was in a horrible position this is what my opinion is going to be.

I don't think anyone wants (or at least should) try to change your opinion on this. It's yours and even if i find it to simple minden and coldhearted, i have to accept it. I just wanted as well to lay out my perspective on this so others can understand from where i come.

I would probably having a much easier time enjoying the Game if i could look at the Characters the way you do. But i can't help myself other than taking them serious, relate to their feelings and with that puting myself in their shoes.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

I don't think anyone wants (or at least should) try to change your opinion on this. It's yours and even if i find it to simple minden and coldhearted, i have to accept it. I just wanted as well to lay out my perspective on this so others can understand from where i come.

I would probably having a much easier time enjoying the Game if i could look at the Characters the way you do. But i can't help myself other than taking them serious, relate to their feelings and with that puting myself in their shoes.

I understand that nobody is trying to change my opinion. It is a discussion forum - it is nice to talk about differing opinions in a civil manner and I appreciate the discussion we are having which is why I am responding to replies to my posts. Not trying to argue or defend myself or anything.

 

[Hentai7777]

I went full Mina so i didnt cover for Ian, he fucked up so it's his problem, i think i even maxed her out, i only not did her bi-curious on this run.

whoa i didn't think you can say no to the other girls, threw killian under the bus and still get Mina affection to max or you think to max very nice.

 

[ename144]

Oh come on. You can be (if you want and as far as i have played) Kind and Supportive to every Women you meet, but by pure chance Lucy is "too much" because you "can't save everyone". That's, im sorry please dont take this personally, but that is a Stupid Argument.

I always thought about PC as a Game with at least 2 Routes, a "Good Guy" and a "Bad/Evil Guy" path with respective endings for the Characters. So if i want to play a "Saint" in Hell i should be able to Help/Save everyone including Lucy. Of course, same but different, goes for an "Bad Guy" playthrough. Or mix it up, be Kind/Save the Characters you like and ignore/take advantage of the Characters you don't like. Oh Boy what wonderfull horrible ideas would i have for Kathleen.

Personally I've never had any strong feelings on Lucy. She's a serviceable character that I have some sympathy for, but I don't really see her as much different than any of the other house girls (who no doubt have their own sob stories if we got to know them). I find Veronica infinitely more appealing, both as a Carnation and as a character. So it's entirely possible I'm more than a little biased here.

That being said, I'm not sure why you think Lucy is being singled out for harsh treatment. Yes, she lost her spot in the Exhibition to Veronica, but that was always a risk; it's going to happen to two of the three Carnations as well. And as it turns out, Lucy still has a chance to get her son into St. Ives. Sure, she has to suffer through all sorts of abuse as a house girl, but that wouldn't really change if she were a Carnation. Nor are the odds of achieving her goal that much worse.

On top of that, it's not like the MC has declined to help Lucy. AFAIK, he only has one chance to interact with her in semi-private (if you ditch the end of the first week to spend time with Hana), and in that case he automatically tries to buoy her spirits by insisting she isn't being frivolous in trying to get her son into a good school. That's not much on the help scale, but what else could he actually do? He has no connections to St. Ives, he obviously can't afford to pay for the bribe she needs out of his own pocket, and he can't do much to improve her life as a house girl.

Actually, now that I think about it, the one thing the MC could do that might help Lucy would be to tutor her son. It's not clear if that would be enough to make a difference, but it is a skill we know he has that is theoretically relevant. Huh. That would actually be kind of interesting to see.

Okay, change of plans. I'm still happy Veronica won, but I'd be down with the MC taking enough of an interest in Lucy that he might spend a little of his time trying to help her. Realistically, this probably won't happen given all the work the devs have to do just for the main storyline, but you never know. I'd certainly take it over any of the other house girls subplots we seem likely to get.

It is absolutely correct that there are a lot of ways and situations to bring people to do things they normally would not do. Rosi´s situation is the most dire and Kath did use this easily to bring her into the competition. Veronica´s situation is different and here we saw that Kathleen is really good in sniffing out angles to use for her games. I wrote it in earlier posts already that it would be the biggest help for her if Edwin could get her to see that her pride and singlemindedness are sometimes Veronica´s biggest enemies.
Even Sam, who has a crush on her and is the main culprit for a lot of Veronica´s woes since she does not want him, said that she could still start anew without problems now. Sell the millstone around her neck and start over with another gym, one which is not in as precarious a situation as her current already was even before Samsom came along.

While August is self-aware enough and even states openly that he is not a good person, the Hana situation is a bit different to the coercion of the others. It is quite clear, that while it took August far too long to come to grips with suddenly being a Dad, he loves Hana. Hana might not (want to) see it, but there are several hints throughout the game that August forced her to become the weekend chief bartender to have Hana close to him at least on weekends and to give her some serious income. Hana´s pay and tipps are implied to be quite good, otherwise she could not carry on her expensive hobbies.

And August is coughing up serious money for Hana´s mom and her medical needs, PC plays in the US, so this is really expensive care. To show the costs August carries here: I am German and therefor have access to the world oldest nationwide healthcare system. A couple of years ago I had a sneaky medical condition, one of the nasty "if you start to feel ill, you already are nearly dead" ones. I survived only due to great care and major surgeries done. The time in the hospital did cost me roughly 300€, including TV, morning newspaper und some medical supplies for the early time after going home.
I looked up what it would have cost me in the US, which is known for their superexpensive care. Even with "insurance" it would have cost me about 2 million dollars! Beside the fact that US insurance companies are not worthy of their name, the costs are just unbelievable. e.g. a fraking Kernspin (MRT) scan is 3-5 times as expensive (for the sickness funds to cover) in the US as in Germany. Ultrasound is an extremly common and widely used procedure in Germany and often part of even simple check-ups, in the US Ultrasound is used rather narrowly and costs often 6-10 times as much as in Germany. Röntgen (X-Ray) pics are likewise very expensive in comparison.

Treating patients with Huntington´s disease in the US is very expensive month for month and August pays that for a patient he is barely on speaking terms with. Hana´s bartendering on weekends is just a bit windowdressing on this fact and has other reasons than what drove the Carnations to PC. August does not win any "superdad" prices for how he forced himself back into Hana´s life, but he is not the total "asshole Dad" you see.

It's worth noting that even the listed costs of health treatment in the United States are something of a mess. A lot of insurance companies will establish maximum prices for various procedures, then they use their enormous size to 'negotiate' down to that price with the various hospitals. To make up the difference, the hospitals jack up the nominal price even further to squeeze money out of the poor, uninsured souls who have no leverage of their own. The whole thing is one racket on top of another; it's rackets all the way down.

Not that any of this invalidates your point that August is footing a very large bill. It's pretty clear he cares a great deal about Hana. The real question is if he cares about her as a person or as a symbol. He may only want a legacy, in which case he would probably react badly if Hana insists on walking her own path in life. I'm very curious to see how the two of them will react to each other when whatever Kat's planning starts to rock the boat.

 

[Turret]

Not that any of this invalidates your point that August is footing a very large bill. It's pretty clear he cares a great deal about Hana. The real question is if he cares about her as a person or as a symbol. He may only want a legacy, in which case he would probably react badly if Hana insists on walking her own path in life. I'm very curious to see how the two of them will react to each other when whatever Kat's planning starts to rock the boat.

I think, going by the things we saw and heard during the game, that it might have begun with August simply wanting to leave a legacy. The way he forced himself back into Hana´s life after nearly 2 decades and his repeated tries to get her into the leadership of the Club hint towards that view.
But this definitely changed after August saw and learned more about Hana. Now he loves her as his daughter, that is clear. He goes to her concerts, he never really punished her after some of her stunts, he really tries to get into her good graces and is quite philosophical if it was the right thing after he finally convinced her trying out a leader position in the Club.
One tidbit of conversation which might be quickly overlooked, but is important in this case, is August´s reaction after Hana told him misleadingly how she shacked up with Edwin for a couple days. Not only does August react rather happy about this, but he mentions on the side that he had hoped hiring Edwin would bring Hana out of her shell again. August knew(!) that Hana let a lot of her social contacts go to sleep after starting at PC and hoped someone like Edwin could bring her out of this again. Well done, Chummer, well done! If you are playing the Hana path it definitely worked!

How August and Hana will react once Kat makes her powerplay, will and I theorise here, depend on if we are on the Hana path and how we influenced both her and August over time.

 

[Vakkyr]

Personally I've never had any strong feelings on Lucy. She's a serviceable character that I have some sympathy for, but I don't really see her as much different than any of the other house girls (who no doubt have their own sob stories if we got to know them). I find Veronica infinitely more appealing, both as a Carnation and as a character. So it's entirely possible I'm more than a little biased here.

She's simply different because we know (a small part of) her Backstory. And yes you are right, the other House Girls are sure having their own sad reasons for being there.

That being said, I'm not sure why you think Lucy is being singled out for harsh treatment. Yes, she lost her spot in the Exhibition to Veronica, but that was always a risk; it's going to happen to two of the three Carnations as well. And as it turns out, Lucy still has a chance to get her son into St. Ives. Sure, she has to suffer through all sorts of abuse as a house girl, but that wouldn't really change if she were a Carnation. Nor are the odds of achieving her goal that much worse.

I think it was promised to her, that she would get what she wanted if she becomes a House Girl. Not as a Chance but as a Guaranty, however reliable this might be.

Regarding why i think Lucy is singled out as a Punching Ball for Abuse, i wrote earlier:

Furthermore i think she has the worst fate so far with being pressured/forced into becomming a House Girl. Where every club member can use and abuse her in every way he wants. And not just for the one Night a Week if i remembered Kathleen right but for the whole Summer.
What that sick ugly bastard of a colleague of her surely will do at any chance, we have seen he loves to hurt and abuse her at the competition, all while she will have to see and interact with him on a daily basis at work where i would assume he would try things aswell keeping his character in mind.

So yes i think she is treated especially gruel in my Book, she has to endure the same abuse as the Carnations more often and over a longer period of time, while being daily confronted with her abuse because one of her abusers is her colleauge. And to top it off she has to suffer through all this alone. At least from what i had played, i didn't now about the Scene you described, but i definetly had liked it more than the Oral Rape/Forced Facefuck when Kathleen Rewards you for a good Interview with a Carnation.

On top of that, it's not like the MC has declined to help Lucy. AFAIK, he only has one chance to interact with her in semi-private (if you ditch the end of the first week to spend time with Hana), and in that case he automatically tries to buoy her spirits by insisting she isn't being frivolous in trying to get her son into a good school. That's not much on the help scale, but what else could he actually do? He has no connections to St. Ives, he obviously can't afford to pay for the bribe she needs out of his own pocket, and he can't do much to improve her life as a house girl.

Actually, now that I think about it, the one thing the MC could do that might help Lucy would be to tutor her son. It's not clear if that would be enough to make a difference, but it is a skill we know he has that is theoretically relevant. Huh. That would actually be kind of interesting to see.

It's not that i want the MC to magicaly solve Lucys problems, what angers me is that he has (except the Scene you described) not a single chance to help her like with the Carnations.
If you decide to help one of the three to win, you don't suddenly stop to care for the other two, you can still be there for them and help them even if it's just Emotionaly Support so they can life through the Abuse without becomming empty husks of her former selfs.
Nothing more do i wish for being able to do for Lucys Character. The MC has no need to get her Son into St. Ives, who if not the MC would be qualified to make Lucy realize that, as good as her Intentions may be, her Son probably wouldn't want for her to Destroy herself only to give him a Headstart in Life.

Okay, change of plans. I'm still happy Veronica won, but I'd be down with the MC taking enough of an interest in Lucy that he might spend a little of his time trying to help her. Realistically, this probably won't happen given all the work the devs have to do just for the main storyline, but you never know. I'd certainly take it over any of the other house girls subplots we seem likely to get.

I'm happy aswell that Vermonica won, and i think Lucy deserves more Screentime and a meaningfull Story. If not, the Devs shouldn't have brought her back after the Competition with Veronica. Right now she feels like a halfassed Character, as if her Model was deemed to expensive to not use it again, but her Character not worthy enough to invest more Time in Developing it.

 

[selberdreher]

That's, im sorry please dont take this personally, but that is a Stupid Argument.

No offense taken, there is a difference between "That's stupid" and "You're stupid".
Nonetheless thank you for clarifying that you meant no offense.
And while i am very much in favour of keeping discussions civilized there is no need for excessive carefull tiptoeing, let's just call bullshit what it is: bullshit. Although for the sake of a refined debate i would of course prefer to call it bovine feces. If you think an argument made by me is stupid, that's legit until i convince you otherwise.
As long as somebody doesn't obviously aim to offend me personally, and because a lot of the folks here write in their second language (me included), i try to assume no ill intend on their side at first. Too much people are too easily offended nowadays.

However let's quickly recall the relevant lines:

I think everything would have been better as what i saw until now done to her. As much as i like her and had loved to see more of her, i think i had preffered if she would have been phased out completely after the competition, rather than seeing her put through more abuse damned to stand by while feeling powerless because the MC can't help her.

To which i replied: "Nope, i like it just as it is, and hope she gets even more screen time. Yes that's mean, but you can't help everyone."
Also

Oh come on. You can be (if you want and as far as i have played) Kind and Supportive to every Women you meet, but by pure chance Lucy is "too much" because you "can't save everyone".

and

I would like this if the devs would reconsider their approach to Lucys Character. If she get's the same chance as the other Women i'm fine with it, but if she still would be the one Character that serves only as a cheap crowdpleaser for the "Hardcore Abuse" folks i would quit the Game immediately and regret the time i wasted to play it. Call me to soft but this would be a no go for me.

Basically you expressed your strong preference for either cutting Lucy completely out the story, or to have the power as MC or Player to ease her fate considerably.
My "Nope, i like it just as it is, and hope she gets even more screen time." was directly geared towards your statement and expressed my preference which is diametrically opposed to yours: don't cut her out and stand by doing next to nothing for her.
Sofar this are just two preferences and both are equally permissible.
My "Yes that's mean" implied i am fully aware and kind of looking forward to more and perhaps even nastier stuff done to and with her.
You, on the contrary, don't like this digusting outlook for Lucy and wish to change it. That's fair.

Finally the contested phrase "but you can't help everyone." which you misconceived as an argument to support my view, whereas i really just wanted to state a fact.

Fact is:
Lucy is not one of our five (or six if we include Kathleen) female MainNPCs, she is a background character, a (relatively new) housegirl, granted a prominent one, which elevates her out of the crowd of the other housegirls, with the bulk of them only just recently got names.
She plays on the same level as Victoria, Grace Beaufort, Dalia and Harper. They have profiles, but no relationship statistics. Our interactions with them are limited, their history is fixed and their development will be influenced by our gameplay - if at all - in a mostly indirect way.
Apart from being especially fond (that's an euphemism, i like her body) of Lucy i don't see a reason to single her out of this quite interesting group of important side characters. You can't help Victoria to change her past, you can't help Dalia, Harper and the other Housegirls directly while they conduct their gruesome business. At least as of the most recent update. Even the Emma situation was initiated by Jacob, a character which has an actual relationship statistic with the MC.
Edwins options are limited, which is realistic, given he is a young student, who was just recently hired for a semi-important position inside the club.

I always thought about PC as a Game with at least 2 Routes, a "Good Guy" and a "Bad/Evil Guy" path with respective endings for the Characters. So if i want to play a "Saint" in Hell i should be able to Help/Save everyone including Lucy. Of course, same but different, goes for an "Bad Guy" playthrough. Or mix it up, be Kind/Save the Characters you like and ignore/take advantage of the Characters you don't like. Oh Boy what wonderfull horrible ideas would i have for Kathleen.

I always thought about PC as a Game with a lot of Routes, following wildly ambiguous paths somewhere between "Good Guy" and "Bad/Evil Guy" and respective endings for the Characters.
If you want to play a "Saint" in Hell, your best bet seems to stay close to Hana and sabotage Kathleen in her endeavour to take over and defile the club even further, but you are not able to help or save everyone immediately, including Lucy.
Of course it never hurts to try! (or does it?)

 

[selberdreher]

So yes i think she is treated especially gruel in my Book, she has to endure the same abuse as the Carnations more often and over a longer period of time, while being daily confronted with her abuse because one of her abusers is her colleauge. And to top it off she has to suffer through all this alone. At least from what i had played, i didn't now about the Scene you described, but i definetly had liked it more than the Oral Rape/Forced Facefuck when Kathleen Rewards you for a good Interview with a Carnation.

I think Lucy serves narratively as a pars pro toto for the other housegirls. Instead of telling all their, as ename144 phrased it, "own sob stories" she illustrates which methods were likely used to get them into the business, and the 'breaking in' of new sexworkers is often done in an especially disgusting way to prepare them for the upcoming tasks. "I've already done worse, so this is comparatively tame."
It's a way to keep them compliant in the future.

(...) i think Lucy deserves more Screentime and a meaningfull Story. If not, the Devs shouldn't have brought her back after the Competition with Veronica. Right now she feels like a halfassed Character, as if her Model was deemed to expensive to not use it again, but her Character not worthy enough to invest more Time in Developing it.

With her above mentioned role she is in my opinion as important to the story as the other prominent side characters, because it's something different to just getting told what happened to the housegirls versus to experience that first hand in the present with a character some of us already established a bond.
That's the same reason we see Victorias porn videos, the impact would be far less, if we were just told by Edwin "My Mom used to do porn, for keeping us two afloat, before she died two years ago." as part of his exposition. We need to become aquainted with Victoria and to actually see her in this situation to feel the plight she went through.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

She for the first time in her adult life really truly wanted something and was unable to do anything about it despite all the power and contacts she currently "has". If you remove people that are her husbands contacts and not hers you end up with very few people like Mina and whoever provides the terrace where she reveals why she is competing.

Yeah and I think that her reason is not good enough. I think that after marrying her husband she gets easier access to a large pool of rich people she can socialize with. Finding a just one person among them that she can take advantage of behind her husband's back would not be too difficult for her. It happens in the real world and I see no reason why it cannot happen in the game given the game tries to be realistic.

As for chuck - maybe you are right, maybe you are not. I dont know enough about chuck and his motives to make a conclusion. But thats besides the point. How would felicia as someone who does not know chuck know that he or the other owners would respect her? My issue with her is I simply cannot understand her thought process if I were to put myself in her shoes. Why would she think that degrading herself in front of a room full of sleazy perverts would make those same sleazy perverts respect her as an equal? I just dont get it.

I dont think that felicia's reasons for joining is a particularly compelling one. Her motives would have made a bit more sense to me if she really wanted something and there was a time limit of some kind which made her desperate and try this as a last ditch effort to get what she wants before time runs out as she feels like she is backed into a corner and has nothing to lose. For example if the school was still open but had 4-5 weeks before it shut down or someone she cared about was ill (like in the case of hana's mom) and had only had a couple of months before they passed and her husband refused to help her - reasons like this I think would make a bit more sense given her position in society.

 

[Vakkyr]

Devs have mentioned that the 2 "routes" or "ending states" are Edwin staying at the club, or Edwin leaving the club. Unless the choice is tied solely to your toughness stat I would say it is not a clear good/evil dichotomy.

The Question would be what leaving the Club would entail for the MC. After all, we are not talking about a normal Brothel here, even if they would want to let him go, they probably simply couldn't, considering how much he knows about the Club and how he would be a constant Danger/loose End to it. So if he wants out he would have to find something he can use as leverage to buy their way out, or if he really is a "decent Human being" find a way to take the Club down for good.

MC said in the beginning he thinks of himself as a "decent Human being". And i found the concept of him questioning this beliefe as he is confronted with the Club and through that with his own (subconsciously?) darker cravings very interesting.
So of course their is (should) be no clear Good/Evil path from the beginning, but more a mix of options where MC is tempted and has to decide for the moment if he's able to withstand the temptation or succumbs to it. But in the end, he can't stay on "common route" forever and at some point has to decide wich path he want's to walk down towards the end.

But!

If this choice would be only between running away (with his Li) leaving everyone else behind, or falling for the Club and embracing it's gruel debauchery, it would be an extremely dissapointing and unsatisfying End in my eyes. At least for all of us that don't want to embrace our Darker side.

If i could wish for a way to End PC i would wish for something like the old Fallouts did for their Endings, especially Fallout 2 comes to my mind. Like having 2 or 3 "Main Endings" lets call them Good, Evil and maybe a Bad End if MC stays non committal until the End, and after this show us how the Story Arcs/ Endings of the other (side) Characters and if/how they where influenced by us and give us some closure on them with that.

Of course this would mean quite a lot of work for Scripting and Writing but i think it would be worth the effort.

 

[Vakkyr]

I think Lucy serves narratively as a pars pro toto for the other housegirls. Instead of telling all their, as ename144 phrased it, "own sob stories" she illustrates which methods were likely used to get them into the business, and the 'breaking in' of new sexworkers is often done in an especially disgusting way to prepare them for the upcoming tasks. "I've already done worse, so this is comparatively tame."
It's a way to keep them compliant in the future.

With her above mentioned role she is in my opinion as important to the story as the other prominent side characters, because it's something different to just getting told what happened to the housegirls versus to experience that first hand in the present with a character some of us already established a bond.
That's the same reason we see Victorias porn videos, the impact would be far less, if we were just told by Edwin "My Mom used to do porn, for keeping us two afloat, before she died two years ago." as part of his exposition. We need to become aquainted with Victoria and to actually see her in this situation to feel the plight she went through.

I starting to get the feeling we are talking past each other here, that or I'm just really bad at making my thoughts clear and/or understanding yours. I would almost second everything you wrote here.

It's not that i want Lucy to have some sort of "magic Plot Armor" so she is saved from all/most of the abuse. I only try to advocate that we both can and should get something to enjoy with her Character. Right now she only caters to the Fantasy of Abusing/Breaking an innocent Women.

Although i as well have a "Dark Spot" in my mind that enjoys the Fantasy of Rape and Abuse from Time to Time, i need at least to feel indifferent towards the Character subjected to it. Or, like with Kathleen, think of the Character as someone who deserves what is comming to him/her.
I would love to reduce Kathleen to a slobbering broken mess for her Actions and wouldn't feel bad about it for only a second. As for Lucy i don't have such excuse so i can't help myself other than feeling hurt when i have to see her suffering.

Until ename144 told me about the Scene where MC seems to at least trying to console her, i got the Picture that he was hardcoded to being indifferent towards her. Now i have at least a glimpse of hope that in the future, if she comes back and hopefully becomes a more Important/fleshed out Character, the MC will have more options with her, like with the other Women.

So my whole point with Lucy was from the beginning not that she is not meant to being abused at all, but that she is (right now) handled different from the other, more important feeling Characters. She feels badly balanced right now, as i said kinda halfassed, as if there was to much work put into her Model to not use it again, but also she was/is not seen as worth enough to invest more time/thought into her to make her a real, fleshed out side Character. This may change in the future, and i hope, if she becomes the prominent Proxy for the House Girls MC get's more options with her.

I really wish for all the more important Characters to have at least an "Good" Arc for me, and an "Evil" Arc for you.

 

[selberdreher]

I'd like to elaborate a bit more on my last post and instead of editing it, i'll write a follow up.

With her above mentioned role she is in my opinion as important to the story as the other prominent side characters, because it's something different to just getting told what happened to the housegirls versus to experience that first hand in the present with a character some of us already established a bond.
That's the same reason we see Victorias porn videos, the impact would be far less, if we were just told by Edwin "My Mom used to do porn, for keeping us two afloat, before she died two years ago." as part of his exposition. We need to become aquainted with Victoria and to actually see her in this situation to feel the plight she went through.

Which is the principle of "Show, don't tell".
This technique encourages authors not to describe a particular subject from the narrator's point of view, but to use plot and dialogue instead. Its intend is to keep the interest of a reader alive, who is nowadays used to filmic narrative structures, and is for obvious reasons especially useful in Visual Novels, since they are an amalgamation of movies and literature. The role of the narrator is pushed into the background, which should make it easier for the reader or player respectively to identify with the characters. I think it's quite successful used in PC.

I think Lucy serves narratively as a pars pro toto for the other housegirls.

That would be her role after she becomes a new housegirl, before that she also illustrates the selection process for the carnations, which was only just hinted on by Rosie in a few sentences.

Instead of telling all their, as ename144 phrased it, "own sob stories" she illustrates which methods were likely used to get them into the business, and the 'breaking in' of new sexworkers is often done in an especially disgusting way to prepare them for the upcoming tasks. "I've already done worse, so this is comparatively tame."
It's a way to keep them compliant in the future.

In this context i'd like to point to Pierre Woodmans older casting videos, which were less staged and used fewer professionals and/or other girls with already some experience in the field. In his castings he will always push for at least anal, and often add slapping and spanking, dirty, degrading talk and sometimes even pissing to the casting. There are indeed porn actresses whose only anal scene was shot with Woodman.
Now the technical interesting thing about anal is, that one needs to prepare for it. Professionals who are scheduled for anal the next day will diet or fast and purge herself with enemas, just like they would prepare for a coloscopy. If they don't, we are in for a mess and a different porn genre.
There are quite a few examples of castings, in which the girls genuinely seem to be surprised, when they realize what type of casting this really is. There are a lot of girls who are sent to shower, take a dump and very likely are told to apply a small laxative enema (you can buy them at your local trusted pharmacy for home use). If they knew he wasn't planning on doing just a normal or nude model casting, this wouldn't be necessary. And because of this lacking preparation beforehand, there are quite a few scenes in which we see them leaking ... well, uhm, you know ... feces.
Which would be considered a blooper for professionals, but here it adds authenticity and degradation.

 

[Vakkyr]

I'd like to elaborate a bit more on my last post and instead of editing it, i'll write a follow up.


Which is the principle of "Show, don't tell".
This technique encourages authors not to describe a particular subject from the narrator's point of view, but to use plot and dialogue instead. Its intend is to keep the interest of a reader alive, who is nowadays used to filmic narrative structures, and is for obvious reasons especially useful in Visual Novels, since they are an amalgamation of movies and literature. The role of the narrator is pushed into the background, which should make it easier for the reader or player respectively to identify with the characters. I think it's quite successful used in PC.


That would be her role after she becomes a new housegirl, before that she also illustrates the selection process for the carnations, which was only just hinted on by Rosie in a few sentences.

In this context i'd like to point to Pierre Woodmans older casting videos, which were less staged and used fewer professionals and/or other girls with already some experience in the field. In his castings he will always push for at least anal, and often add slapping and spanking, dirty, degrading talk and sometimes even pissing to the casting. There are indeed porn actresses whose only anal scene was shot with Woodman.
Now the technical interesting thing about anal is, that one needs to prepare for it. Professionals who are scheduled for anal the next day will diet or fast and purge herself with enemas, just like they would prepare for a coloscopy. If they don't, we are in for a mess and a different porn genre.
There are quite a few examples of castings, in which the girls genuinely seem to be surprised, when they realize what type of casting this really is. There are a lot of girls who are sent to shower, take a dump and very likely are told to apply a small laxative enema (you can buy them at your local trusted pharmacy for home use). If they knew he wasn't planning on doing just a normal or nude model casting, this wouldn't be necessary. And because of this lacking preparation beforehand, there are quite a few scenes in which we see them leaking ... well, uhm, you know ... feces.
Which would be considered a blooper for professionals, but here it adds authenticity and degradation.

I'm well aware of "Show don't tell" aswell as "sometimes less is more" and so on. I write small Campaigns and Oneshots for my local Pen & Paper group, so i have some experience in creating scenes and an general flow for a Story and look out for their pacing and stuff, but i suck at Dialouges so I'm happy i can improvise most of it . And i think aswell that this principle was well adapted from what i have seen until now. I'm with you aswell for what was Lucys purpose so far with the selection process and could be in the Future as a Proxy for the House Girls.

Where i'm strongly against you is with the Woodman stuff. I've seen a couple of them and it looks like the reason you seem to like them is the reason for me why i resent them. We are no longer talking about a Fantasy and/or fictional Characters here. We are talking about real people who have been exploited by an asshole. That is a line i will not cross and to be honest, people that go off on this, they disgust me, or at least their enjoyment of this does. Yes Porn often isn't a nice Bussiness in generall but stuff like the Woodmann Vids and similar content is one of the worst stuff that is out there. In my Opinion.

 

[selberdreher]

I starting to get the feeling we are talking past each other here, that or I'm just really bad at making my thoughts clear and/or understanding yours. I would almost second everything you wrote here.

It's not that i want Lucy to have some sort of "magic Plot Armor" so she is saved from all/most of the abuse. I only try to advocate that we both can and should get something to enjoy with her Character. Right now she only caters to the Fantasy of Abusing/Breaking an innocent Women.

Although i as well have a "Dark Spot" in my mind that enjoys the Fantasy of Rape and Abuse from Time to Time, i need at least to feel indifferent towards the Character subjected to it. Or, like with Kathleen, think of the Character as someone who deserves what is comming to him/her.

I would love to reduce Kathleen to a slobbering broken mess for her Actions and wouldn't feel bad about it for only a second.
As for Lucy i don't have such excuse so i can't help myself other than feeling hurt when i have to see her suffering.
Until ename144 told me about the Scene where MC seems to at least trying to console her, i got the Picture that he was hardcoded to being indifferent towards her. Now i have at least a glimpse of hope that in the future, if she comes back and hopefully becomes a more Important/fleshed out Character, the MC will have more options with her, like with the other Women.

So my whole point with Lucy was from the beginning not that she is not meant to being abused at all, but that she is (right now) handled different from the other, more important feeling Characters. She feels badly balanced right now, as i said kinda halfassed, as if there was to much work put into her Model to not use it again, but also she was/is not seen as worth enough to invest more time/thought into her to make her a real, fleshed out side Character. This may change in the future, and i hope, if she becomes the prominent Proxy for the House Girls MC get's more options with her.

With the preface of my former posts, i have to say well done, TD1900, mission accomplished. You achieved to make a side character with a probably distinctive narrative role so likeable, that we start to care for her.

vakkyr i understand and respect your position, and i am all in to enhance our agency in determining the fate of the characters.

However, i am also all in for letting TD1900 tell their story, since they did a stellar job sofar, and if they decide to keep Lucy a mere side character for illustration purposes only, i am fine with it.

I really wish for all the more important Characters to have at least an "Good" Arc for me, and an "Evil" Arc for you.

That would be indeed preferable if it's done right. Again, i am very fond of giving agency to the players.

But shoehorning a 'Happy Ending' into the story just for the sake of it, would be detrimental in my opinion.
What if the author intented to write a tragedy?
Romeo and Juliet is what it is because they both die, if they would overcome their families enmity or would elope together to live happily ever after it would be a completely different story, and quite probably not considered as one of the greatest romantic plays of all time.

For now i trust TD1900 enough to pull it off, one way or the other. Don't loose hope, vakkyr!

P.S. i want to elaborate a bit more on the "(... ) 'Evil' Arc for you", but that's for another post.

P.P.S. also

I would love to reduce Kathleen to a slobbering broken mess for her Actions and wouldn't feel bad about it for only a second.

 

[selberdreher]

Where i'm strongly against you is with the Woodman stuff. I've seen a couple of them and it looks like the reason you seem to like them is the reason for me why i resent them. We are no longer talking about a Fantasy and/or fictional Characters here. We are talking about real people who have been exploited by an asshole. That is a line i will not cross and to be honest, people that go off on this, they disgust me, or at least their enjoyment of this does. Yes Porn often isn't a nice Bussiness in generall but stuff like the Woodmann Vids and similar content is one of the worst stuff that is out there. In my Opinion.

Oh, i don't wanted to recommened his stuff to anyone, and it is indeed controversial, your feelings about it is more than ok, it's probably healthy.

No, i used this real world example to underline my statement about 'breaking in new sex workers into the business in a especially disgusting way' and how Lucys handling is grounded in reality, it is sadly not overly exaggerated.

 

[Vakkyr]

What if the author intented to write a tragedy?

Then the Author should have written a Book/Light or Graphic Novelle or Play not a VN. Or at least tag the VN as "Kinetic" when the Story is already set and the choices Players have are having no impact, This way people know what to expect.

If a play a Game and have coices i expect them to have an impact, if not they are meaningless and redundant. You still can tell the Story you want even with different Endings. Yes even if a Happy Ending where to be kinda shoehorned in, you still can consider the more "Evil" ending canon and loose nothing but instead adding more value for different Players with it.

Just look at the Carnations, Rose looks quite clear like the "canon choice" as a Li, still you are free to choose Veronica or Felicia if you want. It doesn't watering down the Quality of the Writing or the Characters, it ads variety and more value to the Story.

 

[Turret]

If this choice would be only between running away (with his Li) leaving everyone else behind, or falling for the Club and embracing it's gruel debauchery, it would be an extremely dissapointing and unsatisfying End in my eyes. At least for all of us that don't want to embrace our Darker side.

If i could wish for a way to End PC i would wish for something like the old Fallouts did for their Endings, especially Fallout 2 comes to my mind. Like having 2 or 3 "Main Endings" lets call them Good, Evil and maybe a Bad End if MC stays non committal until the End, and after this show us how the Story Arcs/ Endings of the other (side) Characters and if/how they where influenced by us and give us some closure on them with that.

Of course this would mean quite a lot of work for Scripting and Writing but i think it would be worth the effort.

I truly doubt the endings of PC being this black and white once they arrive. TD hinted that there will be "good", "evil" and something of "neutral" endings for both Edwin staying in the Club as well as leaving. The neutral ones I think will be short and not very in depth, since an important part of the game is how Edwin copes with his morals, temptation, love interests and the Club. As TD stated, one day Edwin has to decide if he stays or leaves, but it is very much how we played the game under which circumstances this happens.
Many pages ago I wrote my Theory what might be the various Ends of PC with Edwin and Hana a couple. What we learned in the meantime seems to indicate I am not too far away (outside the curveball endings)from what will come.
- One is the pure Love route, which might see the end of the club at high moral levels or massive reforms done, with the mending of fences between Hana and August in addition. No to just slight/medium corruption of Hana (if MC and Hana want to test out a couple things, if they like it).

- Next is a positive Love route with MC and Hana (maybe Ian as well) being groomed to be the successors of the current leaders at PC. Would surly feature reforms too, if morals are good. There are hints of this if you play the Hana route and talk to August and Chuck often. And it becomes clear that August wants to repair the damage in his relationship with his daughter, he just does not really know how, cue us MCs.
Corruption could range from zero (Hana is shown to be pragmatic and thinking clearly on most things) over some/medium corruption (encouraged curiosity despite not convinced at start) to full corruption, if the MC likes his SO to be a loose cannon in bed.
e.g. testing porn acting (too much hints of it not only for Hana but others as well), girl-girl, sharing/swinging or a couple shifts in PC to see how it is. (while the majority does not, there are, most often hobby, prostitutes who like doing it)

- Another path would be the Dark Love one, Hana and the MC are a devoted couple, but the MC likes Hana to be as uninhibited and slutty as she can be and this Edwin is no angel too. This path naturally would feature major corruption efforts, like the ones above and additional ones like e.g. Hana "testdriving" August. See one of the dreams Edwin has in game, which is close to this scenario.

- The final path would be two-pronged depending on corruption level. In this storyline MC and Hana would be friends (maybe with benefits) and if Hana stays uncorrupted or just a bit, then MC helps her getting free of PC, in the case of a strongly corrupted Hana she is in PC for longer.

 

[Vakkyr]

I truly doubt the endings of PC being this black and white once they arrive. TD hinted that there will be "good", "evil" and something of "neutral" endings for both Edwin staying in the Club as well as leaving. The neutral ones I think will be short and not very in depth, since an important part of the game is how Edwin copes with his morals, temptation, love interests and the Club. As TD stated, one day Edwin has to decide if he stays or leaves, but it is very much how we played the game under which circumstances this happens.
Many pages ago I wrote my Theory what might be the various Ends of PC with Edwin and Hana a couple. What we learned in the meantime seems to indicate I am not too far away (outside the curveball endings)from what will come.
- One is the pure Love route, which might see the end of the club at high moral levels or massive reforms done, with the mending of fences between Hana and August in addition. No to just slight/medium corruption of Hana (if MC and Hana want to test out a couple things, if they like it).

- Next is a positive Love route with MC and Hana (maybe Ian as well) being groomed to be the successors of the current leaders at PC. Would surly feature reforms too, if morals are good. There are hints of this if you play the Hana route and talk to August and Chuck often. And it becomes clear that August wants to repair the damage in his relationship with his daughter, he just does not really know how, cue us MCs.
Corruption could range from zero (Hana is shown to be pragmatic and thinking clearly on most things) over some/medium corruption (encouraged curiosity despite not convinced at start) to full corruption, if the MC likes his SO to be a loose cannon in bed.
e.g. testing porn acting (too much hints of it not only for Hana but others as well), girl-girl, sharing/swinging or a couple shifts in PC to see how it is. (while the majority does not, there are, most often hobby, prostitutes who like doing it)

- Another path would be the Dark Love one, Hana and the MC are a devoted couple, but the MC likes Hana to be as uninhibited and slutty as she can be and this Edwin is no angel too. This path naturally would feature major corruption efforts, like the ones above and additional ones like e.g. Hana "testdriving" August. See one of the dreams Edwin has in game, which is close to this scenario.

- The final path would be two-pronged depending on corruption level. In this storyline MC and Hana would be friends (maybe with benefits) and if Hana stays uncorrupted or just a bit, then MC helps her getting free of PC, in the case of a strongly corrupted Hana she is in PC for longer.

I didn't read your Post i full to not spoiler me to much but i think i get what you mean.

I'm totally down for making the Endings as varied as possible. That's why i would love for the Side Characters to have their own Story Arcs not hardbound to the MC's one. This way you can have varied Endings even if the MC can only decide between one Major "Good", "Neutral/Bad" and "Evil" Ending.

(I mentioned the old Fallout Endings as a good exemple for endings like that, there you could choose the "Good Ending" but still leave, for at least some Characters/Factions, or all of them, a path of destruction and mysery behind you in the process of reaching it. It of course wouldn't work 1:1 for PC but something similar could work nicely i think)

But that said i think by having sort of a "Good/Neutral/Bad Ending" regardless if he stays or want's to leave the Club makes the decision of leaving or staying much less important/impactfull if not redundant.

I ever saw the decision of wanting to leave or stay as the main branching point for the MC where he has to decide if he gives in to his darker desires and embraces them while staying with the Club, or if his more "Good site" wins out and he decides to resist the Temptations and wants to leave/destroy the Club. From there on onwards, the MS's Story would be much more linear and straight forward to establish a good Dramaturgy and Pacing leading up to the great finale.

An Neutral End in my opinion would be wasted Time to write as i, right now, can't see a way to write it in a way so it wouldn't feel meaningless. If you want a third Ending a "Bad End" would be still difficult to pull of but better in my eyes.