VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[starkj]

I've never seen a game in here having such a heated discussion, love it.

 

[Vakkyr]

IIRC Edwin says that he has not had a chance to prove if he is good or bad before he gets the invitation the club (while he was watching his mom's videos), if that is the case its something that he struggles with before the club enters the picture which makes sense from what we have seen from his backstory and what he told the carnations about the first time they have a meal together.

That was what i thougt mainly aswell, he sees/ want's to see himself a a decent human being but is unsure because he never had to prove it to himself that he is. That changes as the Club enters his Life

I can see the club (more chuck/august) allowing edwin to leave, Chuck cares enough about Edwin to consider him family (Chuck says this to both Edwin and Kathleen separately) and we know that some characters have been confirmed to be part of the club but arent any longer (the house girls).

I'm not far enough into the Game to know much about these Characters and their Relationship with MC. But as i said earlier, it probably would be irrelevant if they personally would want to let him go or not.
The Club is not for their Private enjoyment only, it caters to depraved but Rich and Powerfull clients, these would be the People they would have to convince. And i can see no plausible way to achieve this, considering what would be on stake for these people if anything would leak to the media, also they would be wide open for any sort of Blackmail.

As far as the endings go I am most interested in the state of the girls in both "end states". Assuming everyone has an ending in both states I wonder how Edwin will either try to get all of them out of the club or how will justify leaving all of them there while trying to be a "good" person (and considering 2 out of the 3 of them can be his "friends"). Another thing that could be interesting are the girls secondary stats (libido, horiness, self confidence) and how (if) they tie into the ending. While having those stats high while staying at the club has obvious outcomes; will max libido rose/max horiness Veronica make any difference in the other ending? (same but opposite with low libido/horiness if you stay at the club).

I dont know how i would feel if the Stats would tie heavily into the concrete endings. Right now it felt more like they where used to open or close certain Events or variations of Events and i would be probably Happy if it would stay this way. You should be able to achieve the Ending you want through your Actions and not because you "grinded for a specific stat". In my eyes it would constrict the Player to much while playing the Game. I would limit it to things like Details or maybe some Special Events, Side Stories and stuff.

 

[Hentai7777]

Haiya Uncle Roger is disappointment you made my ancienter cry by not giving acess to Satictic in the begining of Prologue.

 

[Turret]

I didn't read your Post i full to not spoiler me to much but i think i get what you mean.(...)

But that said i think by having sort of a "Good/Neutral/Bad Ending" regardless if he stays or want's to leave the Club makes the decision of leaving or staying much less important/impactfull if not redundant.

I ever saw the decision of wanting to leave or stay as the main branching point for the MC where he has to decide if he gives in to his darker desires and embraces them while staying with the Club, or if his more "Good site" wins out and he decides to resist the Temptations and wants to leave/destroy the Club. From there on onwards, the MS's Story would be much more linear and straight forward to establish a good Dramaturgy and Pacing leading up to the great finale.
An Neutral End in my opinion would be wasted Time to write as i, right now, can't see a way to write it in a way so it wouldn't feel meaningless. If you want a third Ending a "Bad End" would be still difficult to pull of but better in my eyes.

I do not think that the staying or leaving the Club decision is made less impactful by having several ends in both cases. For example, Edwin can be a callous ass and still leaving the Club or a nice, but pragmatic guy knowing where he gets the money to become a doctor. There is alot of variance in both options possible.

I've never seen a game in here having such a heated discussion, love it.

Oh, this is not heated, just a lively and nice game discussion! And it is great! If you want to see heated, just take a look at e.g. the AWAM theards, where they are busy passing the idiot and bootlicker balls around with abandon.

 

[Idontplay]

I suppose he has used the word "heated" in a positive way, to highlight how active the players are in this thread.

 

[starkj]

I suppose he has used the word "heated" in a positive way, to highlight how active the players are in this thread.

This.

 

[Vakkyr]

We see on several occasions the owners ultimately have the final say they just all want to keep things nice and in order for various reasons. Kathleen is able to tell a customer to take his hand off her leg, if the customers needed to be convinced she would not be able to do that especially considering she was the only owner in there at the time. Her husband is also high ranking and knows that she is involved with the club which serves as an extra layer of protection. When Chuck tells someone to shut up every customer quickly stops laughing and focuses their attention on him which again they would not have to do if they were the ones "in charge". He also is involved with at least one of the customers previously (involving missiles/rocket technology) so they should trust Chucks judgement about a long time family friend. There arent any good examples of August asserting his position as owner but I speculate this is because he is most focused on running the club as a business (you get august points for treating it as business).

As I have stated there have been house girls that no longer at the club and there is everybody who previously competed in the 3 competitions that knows about the club and is no longer actively involved in it. It seems to be operating more on a you cant expose the club without ruining your own life basis, which given that a driving force of Edwin working at the club is getting his tuition payed he is unlikely to risk exposing it even if he wants himself and others out.

This would be kinda ridiculous and a big logic hole in my opinion. That Kathleen can tell a client off for touching her is on a whole different Level then commanding them to ignore a serious threat to their Security. Kathleen is part of the Owners/Managment whatever you want to call it, she is not an Asset of the Club. She sure can make the life hard for a Single client, but it would be totally unplausible for her or even all the Owners combined to challenge the whole Customer Base.

Unless they would be Blackmailing all their Clients in doing their bidding and still taking part in the Events that gets the Club even more Material. This surely would solve your problem with that but i would consider it very bad writing, full of Plot convinience and unplausible coincidences.

For every Person leaving the Club they would have to make sure this Person has no chance in ratting them out, be it through Blackmailing, Mentally Breaking them beforehand, Destroying their credibility in advance or as a last resort "putting them out". Everything vastly different than this would be kinda ridiculous in terms of Secrecy and Power Balance in the Club.

And for the MC being bound through it's involvement, isn't this exactly what Whistleblowers do all the Time? Even if it damages them in the process, they still open up to the Public/ Authorities if they can't stand it anymore and want out on it. If he does it right he easily can get a crown witness arrangement with Law Enforcement. So, at least if he manages to stay a decent Human, it wouldn't be so unlikely as an option.

I do not think that the staying or leaving the Club decision is made less impactful by having several ends in both cases. For example, Edwin can be a callous ass and still leaving the Club or a nice, but pragmatic guy knowing where he gets the money to become a doctor. There is alot of variance in both options possible.

In my eyes, the decision to leave or stay would be the main Branchingpoint for the MC to decide if he jumps into the Abyss the club stands for, leaving his "decency" behind, or if he resits the debauchery and holds onto his "decency" looking for a way out. That makes it to an Important decision (possibly) affecting all Characters.

If this decision where to be delayed significantly it would make the choice nearly irrelevant because nothing is decided. If you don't have to commit yourself to a path at some point and can change everything until the end all the choices before are meaningless.

 

[Hentai7777]

Yes finally i got the Mina sense (oh man i didn't know there was chapter 3 update i was like 5 Haiya on getting Mina but went i reach the part, saw the MC, Mina in the bath sense i was like (Agent 17) No Fucking way it has to be her. PS Damn Mina is fucking Hot went change her whole outfit to be sexy, Rosa as well.

 

[Turret]

In my eyes, the decision to leave or stay would be the main Branchingpoint for the MC to decide if he jumps into the Abyss the club stands for, leaving his "decency" behind, or if he resits the debauchery and holds onto his "decency" looking for a way out. That makes it to an Important decision (possibly) affecting all Characters.

If this decision where to be delayed significantly it would make the choice nearly irrelevant because nothing is decided. If you don't have to commit yourself to a path at some point and can change everything until the end all the choices before are meaningless.

While I agree that Edwin´s decision to either stay or leave the Club is a major one, I think you see to stark a divide. It is not only a decision between "debauchery" and "decency", but one of pragmatism and friendship too.

 

[ename144]

This would be kinda ridiculous and a big logic hole in my opinion. That Kathleen can tell a client off for touching her is on a whole different Level then commanding them to ignore a serious threat to their Security. Kathleen is part of the Owners/Managment whatever you want to call it, she is not an Asset of the Club. She sure can make the life hard for a Single client, but it would be totally unplausible for her or even all the Owners combined to challenge the whole Customer Base.

Unless they would be Blackmailing all their Clients in doing their bidding and still taking part in the Events that gets the Club even more Material. This surely would solve your problem with that but i would consider it very bad writing, full of Plot convinience and unplausible coincidences.

For every Person leaving the Club they would have to make sure this Person has no chance in ratting them out, be it through Blackmailing, Mentally Breaking them beforehand, Destroying their credibility in advance or as a last resort "putting them out". Everything vastly different than this would be kinda ridiculous in terms of Secrecy and Power Balance in the Club.

How exactly would the MC be any more dangerous to the patrons after he leaves than he is right now? He already knows what the club is, how it operates, and who's involved. If he decides to turn state's evidence (for whatever reason) the biggest damage is already done. If anything, the MC leaving would lessen the risk since he would no longer be capable of wearing a wire to Club meetings.

Basically, if the patrons trust the Club to vet new hires on its own, I don't see why they wouldn't trust the Club to vet the departure process as well. Based on what we've seen and heard they certainly aren't concerned about Darius, and that guy disappeared in the most suspicious manner possible as far as everyone but Kathleen knows. You can argue this is a mistake on the part of the patrons (stupidity, complacency or overconfidence, take your pick), but they are clearly not sweating the details.

 

[Vakkyr]

I think you are also vastly overestimating the Clientele at the club. Of the ones we see they are a Congressman/Senator, a washed up 80's actor (who cant even always pay), an ambassador to New Zealand someone who works in high school admissions/office, someone who works in a college admissions/office/dean (Mihir), a few people involved with PMC stuff, A famous singer, A chief of the LOCAL POLICE. Sure there are a few people with "real" power among them but only 1 of them would be able to do anything if any sort of law enforcement like the CIA or FBI was hinted at being involved. This is also ignoring the fact Kathleen's husband is just as high ranked (he is also an elected official), knows about the club, and met Kathleen after she had her sadistic awakening in college so he is either ok or into sadism.

Maybe i really overrated the whole Club thing, but that would make it to an even bigger problem in my eyes in case of plausability. If the Clients have no say in the Club, and the Owners letting everyone quit that wants out, be it House Girls, Employees or Carnations. Without ensuring they dont Talk about the Club, how in gods name is the Club still a Secret? How believable would it be that not a Single Person tried to make Money in selling the Club and it's Dirty little Secrets to the Media? Or to Blackmail the Clients, or even the Club in an attempt to get some sort of "severance package". Only because of the fear of ruining their, probably, already ruined Life even more?

The Club for sure is no Nationwide operating establishment where the upper 1% of the Country going in and out, but it is not your local Dungeon in a small Suburb either. I always thought abot it as being located in a Bigger City, maybe no State Capital but still Big. So if your Cients are (among others) a Senator/Congressman, an Ambassador, the Local Police Chief and High ranking PMCs, why would they take semself in such a risky Situation, endangering their way of Life without any assurances or safeguards from the Club regarding Secrecy and Safety.

Why would they voluntarily bring themself in such a weak and powerless position? They may be not the President or CEO of a Global Corporation but they would still have a lot to loose if any knowledge of the Club would ever come out. Sure you could say they are all "Old Friends" with the Owners and fully trust them because of that, but that would ba a little bit too convinient in my eyes.
Also i dont see Kathleens Husband being a Highranking Elected Official necessary as an advantage but more as an weakpoint. She would have to make sure that her antics in the Club cant come back to her and endangering her and her Husbands Careers/Lifes.

Regarding the methods for ensuring the Secrecy, yeah these where quickshots i didn't really thought through. Of course they can't send a Mindbroken Women back to her Familly. After all, trying to avoid this was the whole reason to hire the MC. But still, it would be only logic that they would use what happened in the Club as kind of a Safeguard to ensure silentness.

It just would be kinda hilarious to think that Local but still Powerfull People wouldn't give a shit about the risk of getting their Life Destroyed, all the while accepting that the people they (probably?) pay for Access to the Club are their superiors.

That is not consistent with what the creators of the game have posted so that will not be happening. It will not be stay at club = evil corruption sexy path and leave club = pure lovey dovey route. There will be variations in each of the two "end states" otherwise they would be called endings. It also makes the game's story worse that no matter how you treat all the characters it all comes down to a single decision.
"Have low toughness and high stats with all girls? Well you chose to stay at the club so time to dive into the abyss!!!!!1. "

I probably didn't explain it too well. I don't want the decission to be a hard Cut into only Good or only Bad endings. But i think it should be important and foreshadow the future angle the Story takes. But that doesn't have to negate any sort of "Happyer" Endings if the MC stays with the Club. MC could still find a way to "Reform" the Club or improving the Situation for the Woman to a livable standard in other ways. It should jut not be totally open until direct before the end because this in my opinion would make all the prior choices kinda meaningless.

Same goes for the Stats, with an good System Design you should automaticly getting the correspondent Points to match with your behaviour as the MC. But if you lock Endings behind specific Ammounts of Statpoints, it can happen that the player lacks one or two Points to his preferred Ending because he made the "wrong" decision at some Point. That's why i think such requirements should only apply to Side or Special/Bonus Scenes. The Endings of course can and should be as varied as possible.

 

[selberdreher]

Hm,

That Kathleen can tell a client off for touching her is on a whole different Level then commanding them to ignore a serious threat to their Security.

For every Person leaving the Club they would have to make sure this Person has no chance in ratting them out, (...)

Infact the threat to the security of the clubs' owners is much higher than the threat to the customers.
"Solicitation of prostitution" (that's what the clients are doing) is a misdemeanor for first offenders in most states punishable with fines ranging from 250$ in Kentucky to 6000$ in Alabama and/or community service in Minnesota and/or up to 10 days in prison/jail in Alaska and at the top Massachusetts with a maximum of 2.5 years in prison. The most common fines seem to be around 500$ to 1000$ and up to 1 year in jail or prison.
Any decent lawyer should be able to keep their client out of prison as a first offender.
The most serious impact "solicitation of prostitution" seems to have, is that a bunch of politicians and evangelists had to resign from their office, if we look at the more prominent cases of the last few years.

The owners, on the other hand, could face much more severe punishments. Pandering (that's pimping in common tongue), gambling, bribery, coercion, extortion, dealing in obscene matter and dealing in controlled substances, could set up a RICOH case punishable by up to 20 years in prison (if federal laws are involved).
Luckily if Chuck, August and Kathleen abstain from employing minors as prostitutes, abstain to import women from lets say Mexico or Thailand for prostitution and abstain to transport a prostitute willing to work for them from one US state to another or recruits them outside of their clubs state, the FBI, at least, won't give a damn.
33 US states, however, have implemented laws comparable to RICOH (so-called state RICOHs) to fight organized crime.

As you can see there is a lot more at stake for the owners than the clients, so the clients should trust the owners that they do their utmost to keep security as tight as possible in their own best interest.

I think you are also vastly overestimating the Clientele at the club.

Yes and No
Although the majority of the customers could be considered more C than B-Rank, at least the senator/congressman is A-Tier and definetly Kristoff Jameson, the CEO and owner of a mercenary enterprise. Those two wield real power.
However the most valuable client would be the chief of the LOCAL POLICE. Since Chuck, Auggie and Kat can keep the Federals out of their business, if they aren't dumb, and -spoiler- they are not, it all comes down to state laws they are breaking.
State Police in the USA, commonly known as 'Highway Patrol', are concerned mainly with traffic supervision on the interstates and highways and to a lesser degree involved in protecting the governor, the states parliament, training and qualification of police officers and supporting local polices should the need arise.
This means battling actual crime is left in the hands of the local police departments. Perhaps you can see now, how invaluable it is to pocket the chief of the local police. If they avoid to bribe him directly to -lets say- unlawfully incarcerate an US citizen, again the FBI should be out of the picture. But letting him partake in the club and perhaps even charge him a symbolic fee, so that he turns a blind eye on this business on his own accord, makes a federal bribery case very hard to set up.

It seems to be operating more on a you cant expose the club without ruining your own life basis

I am very much with you on that, i think the three owners have different powers, ranging from soft to lethal, at their disposal to ensure the compliance of former employees.

Lets have a look at Kathleen first.
I think receiving a call from her lawyer suggesting there could be a long, drawn out civil lawsuit over a damaged work uniform can already be enough to beat most former employees into submission. Double that if a non-disclosure agreement was signed at one point, and i would bet a ton they did.

There arent any good examples of August asserting his position as owner

Yes, no examples yet, except you can solve Rosies immediate money problem with his help.
He is intimately aquainted with someone we can only assume is a high-ranking member of the mob or another organized crime family.
There are few things more frightening than when your son is brought home from school by guy in a suit with a black necktie wishing you a good afternoon. Or when another guy in a suit with sunglasses is calling your daughter a beauty and patting her head and complimenting her soft hair. Or a not-so-friendly looking guy sitting in your kitchen when you arrive home and lectures you over the lousy quality of your coffee and suggests you should buy at least some beans of a decent origin. Arabica perhaps, from Guatemala.

When Chuck tells someone to shut up every customer quickly stops laughing and focuses their attention on him which again they would not have to do if they were the ones "in charge". He also is involved with at least one of the customers previously (involving missiles/rocket technology) (...).

Well, finally, this would be Chuck, who is chummy with Mr Kristoffer Jameson, the Merc Leader, whose business is to assess, engage and solve security issues on a large scale, who is chummy with Warren, the Security Chief of the Carnation Club, whose job is to assess, engage and solve security issues on a smaller scale. Given Warrens history with Kristoffers company i am confident he is capable to adress those issues properly.

 

[Vakkyr]

How exactly would the MC be any more dangerous to the patrons after he leaves than he is right now? He already knows what the club is, how it operates, and who's involved. If he decides to turn state's evidence (for whatever reason) the biggest damage is already done. If anything, the MC leaving would lessen the risk since he would no longer be capable of wearing a wire to Club meetings.

Right now the MC is "In" on what happens in the Club, he's a part of it he's "one of them" and under "control" through the Owners. If he would want to leave, because he want's nothing to do with the Club anymore this would change. Especially if his reason to leave would be because he came to resent the Club and how it treats the Women. Also i think of this decision of leaving or staying as far in the Future so until then he easily could have collected evidence to buy himself a new Identity/Life after the Club with the prosecutors.

Basically, if the patrons trust the Club to vet new hires on its own, I don't see why they wouldn't trust the Club to vet the departure process as well. Based on what we've seen and heard they certainly aren't concerned about Darius, and that guy disappeared in the most suspicious manner possible as far as everyone but Kathleen knows. You can argue this is a mistake on the part of the patrons (stupidity, complacency or overconfidence, take your pick), but they are clearly not sweating the details.

The behaviour would make sense if the Club had proven that it takes the Secrecy serious and takes Action when needed to ensure it. Then the Clients could trust the Owners to handle this. Darius indeed is a problem if the clients only know that he "vanished" instead of getting told that he was "taken care of" whatever this may imply to them.

 

[Vakkyr]

Infact the threat to the security of the clubs' owners is much higher than the threat to the customers.
"Solicitation of prostitution" (that's what the clients are doing) is a misdemeanor for first offenders in most states punishable with fines ranging from 250$ in Kentucky to 6000$ in Alabama and/or community service in Minnesota and/or up to 10 days in prison/jail in Alaska and at the top Massachusetts with a maximum of 2.5 years in prison. The most common fines seem to be around 500$ to 1000$ and up to 1 year in jail or prison.
Any decent lawyer should be able to keep their client out of prison as a first offender.
The most serious impact "solicitation of prostitution" seems to have, is that a bunch of politicians and evangelists had to resign from their office, if we look at the more prominent cases of the last few years.

The owners, on the other hand, could face much more severe punishments. Pandering (that's pimping in common tongue), gambling, bribery, coercion, extortion, dealing in obscene matter and dealing in controlled substances, could set up a RICOH case punishable by up to 20 years in prison (if federal laws are involved).
Luckily if Chuck, August and Kathleen abstain from employing minors as prostitutes, abstain to import women from lets say Mexico or Thailand for prostitution and abstain to transport a prostitute willing to work for them from one US state to another or recruits them outside of their clubs state, the FBI, at least, won't give a damn.
33 US states, however, have implemented laws comparable to RICOH (so-called state RICOHs) to fight organized crime.

As you can see there is a lot more at stake for the owners than the clients, so the clients should trust the owners that they do their utmost to keep security as tight as possible in their own best interest.

That's not really the Point i wanted to make here. Of course for the Owners is, from a Law Perspective, much more at Stake as for the Clients. For the Clients it's much more the social outcry and Shitstorm that would Destroy their Carrers/Businesses if it would be known in what perverted and disgusting Events they where willing participants, yes even "Sponsors" of it. As for the Owners, this would be even more a reason for them to not letting the MC easily go, not without ensuring his silenceness.

 

[Vakkyr]

None of the customers have mentioned Darius the owners never told them which is another point towards the idea that the owners are the ones who wield the power

You could interpret it this way. Or you could say the Owners fear the reaction of their clients and because of this fear they trying to hide it.

Warren mentions that the people at the club do not mind cameras being in every room because they are "above getting in trouble for doing something they shouldn't" if they were the ones with power there would either not be cameras or warren would have said "they wanted them in there for their own safety".

Same here, you can interpret it your way, or see it as a sign of Power. They feel untouchable, too Big to fail and that every acusation would drip off on them. And/Or they simply trust the Owners in taking care of any emerging problems because they know there a Security measures in place.

I will really have to make Time next week to continue my Playthrough, to make my own Picture.

 

[Vakkyr]

There are maybe 2 customers who have more power than Kathleen and or her husband. One of them is another elected official so the pissing congressmen/senator has an equal amount of power and therefore isnt as much of a threat. The other Kristoff Jameson (leader of PMC) has been friends with Chuck for decades and is unlikely to come into a place Chuck made as a playground (Kathleens words) and tell him how to run stuff. We see an example of just this when Kristoff refuses to talk in front of Edwin until Chuck introduces them. If Kristoff was the one in power he would have no need to change is behavior. While the customers are "bad" people none of them are comic super villains, only three of them being anything other than a celebrity, and only two of those 3 having the same or more power than Kathleen.

Honestly curious how you think the high school admissions guy who wants lucy, Mihir, the boob guy, and a washed up B movie actor, an obese and perhaps dangerously horny Italian singer are controlling the owners?

I think, it's not so much the Question of who controls who in general. As long as everything runs smoothly, there is a fine Balance of Power inside the Club between the Owners and the Clients. Also, you don't need every Single client to be super Powerfull. Yes you have the washed up B Movie Actor, Lucys colleague and more, that would fit better for the "local Dungeon in a Small Town/Suburb" type of Club.

On the other side we have very Powerfull Clients as well. We have an High Rank Diplomat, not any Diplomat but the Ambassador himself, the Local Police Chief is also not to underestimate, with an Ambassador and Senator being present, the City the Club is in, and with that the Police Force he controls, would be rather big. And if all of this isn't enough we still have the PMC guy that practical owns a Private Army.

Yes, the mix of the clients is odd. And in my opinion, Waters down the supposed Exclusivity of the Club and it's believability and is (for me) one of the few weakpoints in the writing so far.

In the end i think the structure inside the Club is too complex as to break it simply down to an "who controls who" question. Yes there are for sure Situations inside the Club where the Owners can exert their power even to the Highranked Clients. But they should still be aware of the fact that, at least the Highranked clients, are outside of the Club evenly if not more Powerfull than they are.

As long as the Clients think they can trust the Owners to ensure the Secrecy of the Club, and that they would take action if it would be endangered, there is no need for them to involve themself more into the Club as enjoying it's Benefits. But, if this trust would be, in any way, damaged and the Owners would ignore their Clients interest, this could be the start of an "mutual annihilation war". And i think this complexity and possible fragility should be reflected by the Story and Plot.

 

[Turret]

Yes, the mix of the clients is odd. And in my opinion, Waters down the supposed Exclusivity of the Club and it's believability and is (for me) one of the few weakpoints in the writing so far.

I do not think the exclusivity of the PC Club is so unbelievable. What we learn over the run of the game is that PC´s "standard" activities are costly and thus to a certain degree exclusive, but open to anybody paying. What IS TRULY exclusive are the special events like the Pale Carnations competition. That is the glass ceiling in the club between the rank and file customes of the Club and the "elite". Remember, Jacob mentions it in passing that the "whales" of the Club rarely gather en masse, normally only on weekends and during the special events.
So on most days PC is more or less a high grade, sheltered luxury brothel where rather few of the big whigs customers are there. But it is the special events like the Pale Carnations which lifts them into their own league.

 

[TD1900]

Of the patrons that have screen time, I mentally divide them into a few groups: the truly to moderately powerful (the CEOs, politicians, and the arms dealer), those that serve a practical function (the dean, admission officer, and lawyer), and those that the other patrons enjoy to have around (like Samson and the tenor).

Ideally, there would be a handful more of the first group to round things out, but it's a tricky balance between representing the structure of the club and technical considerations. Between 12 patrons, 3 owners, 3 carnations, Hana, Ian, Edwin, and the odd house girl, exhibitions are the the ninth circle of hell when it comes to posing or even just loading the scene.

 

[TD1900]

I would be interested to know if TD1900 considers the chief as someone moderately/powerful or if they fall into practical purpose roll since depending on the story they want to write they could fall into either camp

A bit of both. Obviously there's the practical side of having the police in your pocket, but Jim having been appointed by the mayor isn't void of political capital or connections within the city. Of course, like you said, nothing saves you from the long dick of the federal government - and realistically speaking, all criminal organizations are just ticking time bombs or, at the very least, prone to to having their power structure reshuffled.

 

[Turret]

A bit of both. Obviously there's the practical side of having the police in your pocket, but Jim having been appointed by the mayor isn't void of political capital or connections within the city. Of course, like you said, nothing saves you from the long dick of the federal government

Well, if he is still among us (because of his estimated age he might not), "Dan Cooper" will tell you otherwise! But seriously, yes, if the federal govenrment really wants to nail you down, normally they will.