- Thread starter GIL3D
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- Sep 20, 2018
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Because in order to *be* possible the MC and Victoria would need to be the sort of people who could want to fuck each other, but the game is structured around the notion that they aren't. Victoria is the one who encouraged the MC to outwardly maintain societal norms for his own good. Having her be willing to throw those norms to the wind for a raunchy incest scene would undermine (or worse, overshadow) the choice the MC faces about discarding his mask within the context of the club. Victoria can't be the MC's shoulder angel if she's tempting him to sin, after all. That's Kathleen's job.
On top of that, the devs only have so much time. Any scene they add with Victoria ultimately means either losing a scene with some other lady, or extending the development time. At a certain point even adding high quality material can be a negative if it winds up diluting the plot. I think it's a good thing that the devs for this game have been keeping their eyes on the core story, even if there are a few side paths I'd personally have been interested in exploring.
Just so.Darn.But at least now we know for certain.
- Apr 25, 2020
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Not every story needs incest, or every fetish, even optional. Get your kink somewhere else.
- May 17, 2022
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Yeah, and there are so many incest games in this site already.
- Jun 16, 2017
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Problem is... they aren't as good as this one
- Nov 20, 2019
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- Jan 4, 2018
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TD I HAVE to ask, but if its too exhausting to answer I totally get it - What the hell is your process that your output is this high quality?
There are VERY few games on here that are this engaging writing wise, even though you guys didn't go for an Acting Lessons/Leap of Faith kind of "Deep" plot. Yes, the visuals are spectacular, that's a granted. But the facial expressions, the body language, combined with the really high quality script (I doubt you guys just sit down, type whatever the fuck comes to mind and then use a thesaurus) makes this feel very realistic - How?!
- Jan 4, 2018
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IMO, incest is usually and for most people, about the taboo and corruption.Problem is... they aren't as good as this one
Most people (I believe, at least) would genuinely find the concept of "corrupting" someone attractive, and something they may want to do - but most of these people would not want to have sex with their mom/siblings.
So incest is just an easy, dumbed down and very simplistic way of delivering that sort of taboo/corruption, that's why we have dozens if not hundreds of games with the same trope, same story, over and over - it's not bad, and I like it as well.
I think fantastic games (Like this one) approach the same fundamental kink we're looking for, but in a new way, or even several ways (as nearly every girl in the movie is in that situation due to differently circumstances). That's why, while F95 programed my mind to want Victoria to be banged, Edwin feels pretty real to me (unlike most protagonists), so it wouldn't make sense.
Plus, the Dev's are super chill, support them, and maybe if you ask them nice enough they may consider eventually making a short prequal game with Victoria's story (Again, not incest, but top notch still)
Thank you for saying as much, but for my side of things, beyond the loose outline(s) I have set, it really is just sitting down and writing what comes to mind. Thanks to GIL, I have the luxury of not having to worry about anything other than the words. People who tackle every aspect of development are amazing. They have a lot more on their plate and as a result, they probably don't have the time to stare at a single line for five minutes trying to will a satisfying description out of it.
Other than that, I've just consumed a lot of stories, including reading nearly every eroge that got translated over a decade. I like to think I have a good feel for pacing a visual novel because of that.
As for the posing, staging, and facial expressions... GIL is just that exacting. He's been working with illusion (the company that makes HoneySelect) posers for a long time. In fact, I met him back in 2017 thanks to a comic he made that inspired me to make some comics of my own. So he's got a lot of experience, plus the kind of mind that forces him to agonize over the tiny details of scenes. In my opinion, he's the true ingredient of our success. I always doubt the stuff I write, but he convinces me otherwise by bringing it to life so vibrantly.
So, basically, I would say because there's two of us.
Victoria's current character model is probably the hottest one out of all the girls (me personally) but even if there is no incest hopefully later we get to see a little bit of something from her sexually maybe with her dating app thing she was taking about with edwin .
- Jan 4, 2018
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Lol, as humble as your Edwin, i see where he gets it.
GIL really does appear to be, much like yourself, a master of his craft. I honestly don't think I've seen any non AAA product (and I've gamed, A LOT) with such amazing accuracy, it so realistic, it can actually be discombobulating in some scenes.
I find it incredible how you guys are two veterans of your craft, and on the other side (us) no one has a clue. the final product obviously speaks for itself, quality wise, but due to our retarded world considering this lesser to other creations.
Again, I appriciate the answer and look forward to enjoying the amazing stuff you guys create.
- Sep 26, 2021
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I know a ton of people are quoting you with counter-arguments and I'm not trying to dogpile you here, but . . .
I think if you try to add too much choice you eventually cross the threshold between visual novel and sandbox. I understand sandboxes are enormously popular here, but I personally find them a poor medium for storytelling. They /always/ end up being more of a simulator and less of a story. In my experience sandbox choices lead you to lots of interactions with characters but very rarely to story events. While there is a lot of overlap between the two, interactions and story events are NOT the same thing. You can have infinite character interactions without anything really happening.
It's almost a zero sum game. That is, once you've crossed into sandbox territory, the more choice you are given the less of an actual story there is. Each choice erodes the story further. I admit that that sounds paradoxical. "More choices" sounds like it should mean more possible story avenues, which I think is part of the argument you are making here. But I think it's true, too much choice splinters your story really badly over time and you can easily end up with no story at all.
I don't mean to say that choices are bad or harmful for a visual novel. After all, I love Pale Carnations and I think it has a very healthy amount of choices that are all placed at very appropriate times in the story. I just think the amount of choices needs to be exactly that, a healthy amount. Not a smorgasbord of choices to gorge yourself on.
I think it's clear that TD and Gil have a very precise vision they want to execute, which means limiting the amount of choices.
I don't think it's the quantity of choice, but rather the quality. Choices need to be meaningful and the way to do that is for them to have consequences.
A good story doesn't go, "A happened, then B happened, then C happened, then ..." it goes, "A happened and the protagonist did X, which resulted in B happening so the protagonist tried to do Y but failed and as a result C happened, but then ..."
And you create that in a game by offering the player choices that shape the emerging story. That's where so many sandboxes fall flat.
That is the crux of the problem: if a game without choices is a straight line, a game with meaningful choices generates a tree (or a graph, if you prefer). Key word is "meaningful": two choices with no consequences do not spawn a divergent path, and are practically collapsible in a single segment of a line. However, when choices have consequences, the lines diverge, and unfortunately the complexity of the graph explodes very soon. I can't post a link because of my low post count, but if you're curious or interested you can look for the post mortem of "Alpha Protocol" (search for "Obsidian Ent. But Thou Must" on Youtube), a glorious trainwreck of a game that however is very significant for this discussion, because its greatest asset is a story that while being told linearly can be tackled in a multitude of different ways with lots of branching consequences and a relatively small number of story choke points and incoherences. However, this kind of story really pushed the devs and writers to their limits, since the resulting graph was an incredibly jumbled mess, and each modification to it snowballed and was almost unmanageable.
Speaking of choices and consequences, I don't want to derail the discussion too much, but I'd like to ask TD1900 if he played a 200x eroge named "Crescendo". I also suggest any eroge aficionado to play it: it's old, and has lots of the trappings of a "classic" eroge, complete with heavy handed stereotypes and such... However, narratively I think it's way above the average, and in particular I think it has one of the most mature handling of "bad endings" I've seen (and bad endings in general were discussed in this thread at some point).
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- Apr 25, 2020
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I didn't check "the expressions" on my first playthrough, because most of these VNs have limited expressions, lol. I just read the text.
So for me, initially it was all about the writing. Close to 100% of it.
But then after some time I did a replay, and goddamn, the expressions are top tier too.
I said it multiple times by now but I really think this game should be on steam or somewhere else that is popular. This game is really good in many of it's aspects. The story being told is admittedly quite niche and that could limit the number of possible patrons too compared to, say, a college experience game where it caters to wider range people.
But still, I do think 800 patrons is way too low a number. 1100 should be the lowest. Up to 2200, or even more. So yeah, I really think Steam or similar game marketplace would really help.
I knew BaDIK from steam. Before knowing about this forum.
Victoria incest can happen on Kathleen path the surprise for Edwin can be Victoria kidnapped , drugged, blindfolded and delivered to Edwin by Warren on behalf of Kathleen. The morally uptight can refuse this surprise and the rest of us incest lovers can accept to go further on that path.
Or at least give us scenes with someone else if not Edwin. Victoria in present age has to be one the best looking milfs out in adult game history would be such a shame to not have any scenes with her present character.
Or at least give us scenes with someone else if not Edwin. Victoria in present age has to be one the best looking milfs out in adult game history would be such a shame to not have any scenes with her present character.
- Jun 25, 2018
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Most erotic games have either fake choices, "yes"/"no" answers or some completely arbitrary shit that dev makes up along the way (e.g. we can choose a left door or a right door and if we choose wrong it's game over or we can choose to give a spicy food or sweet food and there is no hint previously what could be a better answer).
In Pale Carnations almost all choices matter and even when it's more of a flavour than a divergent path, at least one attribute will be affected (like "toughness or we get a +1 or -1 point with certain girls) but more importantly because of good writing we can roughly guess what to expect when we do choose. For example, in the very beginning Felicia tells us to bring her some fruity drink so when we have choices:
1) dry martini
2) cherry bomb
3) tequila
it's not hard to deduce what will get us more points with Felicia.
Seems like something obvious but it's surprising how often other devs don't do something this basic and instead we get random choices.
- Oct 15, 2016
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Usually this happens when a dev sneaks NTR into any game that's supposedly about building relatonships with characters since that specific fetish is anything but relationship building and more about power and dominance.