VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[UnoriginalUserName]

I didn't say that the story in this game is very well written, no, it's just better than in other games.

 

[ramiurga]

TD1900 should take it as a badge of honor that this much text is expended on his game's page.

Not only that, quite unique for a porn game, this tread is surely material for not one but several doctoral theses, like "Moral dilemmas of young adult males and females in today's society" or ... Feel free to suggest appropriate theses titles!

 

[dathk321]

I just play a little bit about this game, so how many girls can be a girlfriend with MC so far in this update?
I don't like friend zone or FWB so at least one or two of the girl can be a girlfriend with MC right?

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

I just play a little bit about this game, so how many girls can be a girlfriend with MC so far in this update?
I don't like friend zone or FWB so at least one or two of the girl can be a girlfriend with MC right?

Yep

 

[EvolutionKills]

Bro, calm the fuck down. Why do you people always talk the same way? "Uh, you do know", "It's almost as if", "If...X...not sure what to say to you", "OOF. MEGA OOF", "The problem", "Slut-shame", "Sex work", "X Absolutely Y". Insults, random CAPITALIZATION, condescension, passive-aggression, putting pussy on a pedestal, and being confidently wrong.

I mean, not everyone can put as little effort into their posts as you do? Congrats?

There is none. Edwin's unaware that Rose has already secured her place as a carnation. As far as he's concerned, it's an interview.

With strings attached. Both of them were being lead on. Edwin can piece things together, and he can lean into the lie rather than doubling down on exposing it. He knows he's not yet an employee, he can tell this is a sham meeting. Chuck tells him that he'll respect Edwin's decision (which only makes sense after talking to Rosalind), so her place isn't even in jeopardy if she doesn't sleep with him. Edwin is handed sexual leverage over Rosalind, and while he's clearly being pushed into using it, he doesn't have to. His choice to do so is ultimately his alone. How is that anything but an abuse of trust? The options itself is explicitly labeled 'Take advantage of her'. Not sure the game can make that any more explicit. If you don't get it, you're not paying attention.

Rosalind needed help. Mrs. Pullman abused her trust by making her a Carnation rather than going though legitimate charities to solve her problem. Chuck and Ian, in helping setup this meeting, made themselves complicit in that abuse of trust. If Edwin partakes in the perpetuation of the coercion, he too implicates himself in this violation.

The game explicitly frames this as a question to the player. There was clarity and escalation with her husband, she chose not to do anything.

That is Victim Blaming 101 right there. She had a kid, she was married, and she was trying to make it work for all their sake's. Her husband dealt with the loan sharks. Rosalind is under zero fucking legal obligations to them, but they operate outside the law. Filling bankruptcy won't make them just go away. It's why Mrs. Pullman has so much leverage over her, it's why Rosalind is so desperate, it's why her story is tragic. Again, if you're not getting it, you're not paying attention.

Infidelity is a blatant example of Antonio being correct. Cheating among married individuals is widespread, often cheaters hook up with other cheaters. Clearly not trustworthy individuals since they're cheating, but they go full kink, because there's independent forms of trust. You trust someone to be discreet, even if you wouldn't trust them to be X, Y, or Z. It's also an ignorant fantasy in general. People would do crazier things with strangers, and on one-night-stands because it "doesn't matter". There is freedom in that. There's all sorts of crazy shit that goes down between strangers in sex-festivals.

But I'm not saying that stuff doesn't happen. The person I was responding to was seemingly flabbergasted that Mina didn't share her list with Ian, and the idea that Ian couldn't be trusted with such a potentially hurtful secret was somehow alien to them. Cause the idea that someone who can't be trusted to not fuck around, probably also can't be trusted to keep their damn mouth shut, was somehow a bridge too far for them to connect the mental dots.

Edwin's father is a huge Chekov's gun, and is significant. "Doing nothing for others is the undoing of ourselves" carved on his watch, it being reiterated during his dream, him wanting Victoria to retell a story of his father on the phone, and being mentioned again during the recent sex scene with Mina.

Again, the dad being dead just is. It explains the circumstances. If he were alive, he could have delivered the line on the watch himself, but then Victorias' porn career would need to be rewritten. He's gone, that's all he needs to be so far. Edwin hasn't been obsessing over his dad. Rather, his predominate focus has been on his mother, and how her past reflects on his current circumstance and those he now finds himself surrounded with. The story hasn't been a murder mystery, nor does it need to be. Edwin's father might as well be the Force in Star Wars. It's a literal plot device, so it doesn't need to be explained, it already serves it's narrative purpose as is; and you'd better be careful you don't make things actively worse if you do explain the mystery (how much better was the Force made by Midi-chlorians?).

 

[dathk321]

Yep

Well, can you tell me who is it?

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

Well, can you tell me who is it?

NO. Play game.

 

[dathk321]

you can officially have hana as your gf and mina as a fwb and felicia as a sugar mommy and rose as a personal prostitute and veronica as your personal dog =)

Oh man, Mina is just FWB, what a disappointment. And Hana is an official girlfriend yet or is just a hint :V

 

[lubering]

Again, the dad being dead just is. It explains the circumstances. If he were alive, he could have delivered the line on the watch himself, but then Victorias' porn career would need to be rewritten. He's gone, that's all he needs to be so far. Edwin hasn't been obsessing over his dad. Rather, his predominate focus has been on his mother, and how her past reflects on his current circumstance and those he now finds himself surrounded with. The story hasn't been a murder mystery, nor does it need to be. Edwin's father might as well be the Force in Star Wars. It's a literal plot device, so it doesn't need to be explained, it already serves it's narrative purpose as is; and you'd better be careful you don't make things actively worse if you do explain the mystery (how much better was the Force made by Midi-chlorians?).

Or maybe MC's father is still alive and kept by Abel in the basement as a lab rat to test his drug. Because why Edwin was so easily hired for such a job, because he knows Ian or his uncle, and Kathleen is so interested in MC, I don’t think so. Perhaps this is all a trap in order to lure Edwin and find out his potential, because when Kathleen used the drug on him, she was very impressed. Also, Kathleen could persuade Hana to seduce Edwin in such a way that he would think that he now has another person in this club whom he can trust. In addition, Kathleen allows Edwin too much and she checked him for honesty more than once, for example, when after the last carnation punishment she asked a question and you could tell about Harper and Lucy or Emma, and Kathleen, although she already knew everything and this question was another test of honesty.

 

[lubering]

Ian gave the best advice to Edwin "don't trust sluts" , all the girls that surround him, guess who they are? SLUTS

 

[Takkatakka]

Ian gave the best advice to Edwin "don't trust sluts" , all the girls that surround him, guess who they are? SLUTS

The biggest slut is Ian though...so if you shouldn't trust sluts, you shouldn't trust the fact, that you shouldn't trust sluts...

 

[lubering]

The biggest slut is Ian though...so if you shouldn't trust sluts, you shouldn't trust the fact, that you shouldn't trust sluts...

But Edwin also became a slut, all people are sluts, which is why no one trusts anyone and everyone wants to fuck you for their own benefits.

 

[EvolutionKills]

does that mean now that john needs to divorce his wife because she betrayed his trust when wrecking his beautiful car even though she promised to bring it home in one piece?

Ho boy. That you think THAT is a 'gotcha' question is kinda low-key hilarious. But sure, I'll bite.

The answer is: Depends on the context.

Genuine accident? Almost certainly not. Accidents happen, that's what makes them accidents.

If it was a preventable accident? If the wife had been operating it negligently? If the car was say, a passion project (e.g. resto muscle car)? Then maybe don't let her drive the expensive toys anymore, but not like you need to force her to take the bus to work everyday.

If the car was some point of contention in the relationship (e.g. it was an obsession or a money pit, wife wanted it gone because of competition for time and attention), and she wrecked it on purpose? I mean, sure, that's an abject betrayal of one's trust for another's gain. That's the kind of shit that can absolutely end relationships.

mina started the whole thing at the first meeting in the coffee shop ("ohhh i like loooong hugs!! hihihi uwu"). then she invites edwin to shopping, playing dress up for him, and then she wears the outfit he liked the most when meeting the next time. then she kisses him "for acting", before letting him fondle her tits while ahegao-ing.

and then she found the usb stick

The only thing that maybe crosses the line is the kissing, which again, was practice for something she was gonna do anyways as part of her job. She's an actress, and not all roles are as celibate monks devoid of on-screen intimacy. It was a hot scene were Mina losses herself a bit in role and in response to Edwin's actions. Otherwise, unless you're a supremely insecure fuck-up that demands absolute obedience from and control over their partner (in which case you want a slave, not a girlfriend), the rest of that is fine.

Mina is gregarious, and that doesn't make her unfaithful. Long hugs are not cheating, nor is having a bubbly personality (even if that is a mask, she's hardly the only one with different public and private 'faces'). Did you perhaps not get hugged enough growing up? Raised in one of those super conservative cloistered cults where a lady showing some ankle is absolutely scandalous, and talking to another man without her keeper present is being an unabashed slut?

The shopping part was entirely platonic and incredibly tame (unless Edwin has the Voyeur trait, in which case Mina is annoyed with his peeking and is not at all flirty), and occurred because Ian blew off her and her plans. That's because Ian was blasted and giving out free face-rides to not-his-girlfriend the night before. Also, Edwin doesn't have to cover for Ian being missing, nor accept Mina's invitation to go shopping. The event occurs because Edwin reciprocates. If you're gonna paint Mina as a whore for simply hanging out with a male friend, then Edwin must be a home-wrecker for the very same. I have noticed however that you haven't been at all critical for the role Edwin plays here; Mina is not acting in a vacuum.

You also forgot the club, where Ian is actively flirting with another girl (the violet haired Amber, the other part of Ian's threesome with his nanny, and drunk Ian face-ride recipient). Also when Edwin is asked if he knew about the cheating and he's honest, Mina thanks him for not lying and tells him that she's partially to blame for having ignored it herself up until that point. She knew, and had known, for quite some time; the USB drive was just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. That was the final betrayal so obvious and arresting in its totality that it demanded confrontation. The problem could no longer just be brushed under the rug, hoping that it would go away or fix itself.

Let also not forget that Mina and Ian's relationship is a gauged by a literal variable in the game's code. In order to progress down Mina's path, it requires you to be honest with her at key decisions to earn enough point to erode away their relationship score. Edwin is an active participant in this endeavor, Mina is not just throwing herself at Edwin for sex regardless of his actions.

what trust?

didn't edwin just go there naively for interviewing her and then she asked him for sex? iirc he was under the impression that she would not be allowed to participate as a carnation if she wasn't good fucking him. so if he didn't fuck her and would also be a sincere person and didn't lie to the owners about it, he would have put her in a precarious situation.

or are you the kind of person who finds it wrong to accept "dubious goods" but lying to the bad guys is ok if its about saving the damsel in distress?

Rosalind was being setup, and Edwin comes to realize it. She was instructed to have sex to ensure her position at the club, but Edwin wasn't told the same; indeed Chuck explicitly told him that he'd respect Edwin's decision ("I'll honor whatever decision you come to regarding the lass. Talk to you later."). So Edwin knows he has the decision making power here, and he's smart enough to put 2-and-2 together and can pretty easily surmise that Rosalind is being coerced to be there.

So again, does Edwin become complicit in the machinations of the club to get laid, or does he respect Rosalind enough to treat her like a human being? Edwin knows that he can just approve her without fucking her, and by the magic of video-games, we the audience can see that play out by choosing to not take advantage of her. I mean, do you just not understand what coercion is and how it works? The fundamentals in unequal power dynamics in human interaction? Or are you really naïve enough to think that Rosalind is there purely of her own volition, and that outside circumstances (again, being manipulated by the Carnation Club itself) have zero role to play here? People do not operate or make decisions in a vacuum.

I kinda get the impression that if a school bully shook a kid down for their lunch money, and said bully beat up the kid for refusing, you'd blame the kid and not the bully cause 'the kid had a choice'.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

Ho boy. That you think THAT is a 'gotcha' question is kinda low-key hilarious. But sure, I'll bite.

The answer is: Depends on the context.

Genuine accident? Almost certainly not. Accidents happen, that's what makes them accidents.

If it was a preventable accident? If the wife had been operating it negligently? If the car was say, a passion project (e.g. resto muscle car)? Then maybe don't let her drive the expensive toys anymore, but not like you need to force her to take the bus to work everyday.

If the car was some point of contention in the relationship (e.g. it was an obsession or a money pit, wife wanted it gone because of competition for time and attention), and she wrecked it on purpose? I mean, sure, that's an abject betrayal of one's trust for another's gain. That's the kind of shit that can absolutely end relationships.




The only thing that maybe crosses the line is the kissing, which again, was practice for something she was gonna do anyways as part of her job. She's an actress, and not all roles are as celibate monks devoid of on-screen intimacy. It was a hot scene were Mina losses herself a bit in role and in response to Edwin's actions. Otherwise, unless you're a supremely insecure fuck-up that demands absolute obedience from and control over their partner (in which case you want a slave, not a girlfriend), the rest of that is fine.

Mina is gregarious, and that doesn't make her unfaithful. Long hugs are not cheating, nor is having a bubbly personality (even if that is a mask, she's hardly the only one with different public and private 'faces'). Did you perhaps not get hugged enough growing up? Raised in one of those super conservative cloistered cults where a lady showing some ankle is absolutely scandalous, and talking to another man without her keeper present is being an unabashed slut?

The shopping part was entirely platonic and incredibly tame (unless Edwin has the Voyeur trait, in which case Mina is annoyed with his peeking and is not at all flirty), and occurred because Ian blew off her and her plans. That's because Ian was blasted and giving out free face-rides to not-his-girlfriend the night before. Also, Edwin doesn't have to cover for Ian being missing, nor accept Mina's invitation to go shopping. The event occurs because Edwin reciprocates. If you're gonna paint Mina as a whore for simply hanging out with a male friend, then Edwin must be a home-wrecker for the very same. I have noticed however that you haven't been at all critical for the role Edwin plays here; Mina is not acting in a vacuum.

You also forgot the club, where Ian is actively flirting with another girl (the violet haired Amber, the other part of Ian's threesome with his nanny, and drunk Ian face-ride recipient). Also when Edwin is asked if he knew about the cheating and he's honest, Mina thanks him for not lying and tells him that she's partially to blame for having ignored it herself up until that point. She knew, and had known, for quite some time; the USB drive was just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. That was the final betrayal so obvious and arresting in its totality that it demanded confrontation. The problem could no longer just be brushed under the rug, hoping that it would go away or fix itself.

Let also not forget that Mina and Ian's relationship is a gauged by a literal variable in the game's code. In order to progress down Mina's path, it requires you to be honest with her at key decisions to earn enough point to erode away their relationship score. Edwin is an active participant in this endeavor, Mina is not just throwing herself at Edwin for sex regardless of his actions.




Rosalind was being setup, and Edwin comes to realize it. She was instructed to have sex to ensure her position at the club, but Edwin wasn't told the same; indeed Chuck explicitly told him that he'd respect Edwin's decision ("I'll honor whatever decision you come to regarding the lass. Talk to you later."). So Edwin knows he has the decision making power here, and he's smart enough to put 2-and-2 together and can pretty easily surmise that Rosalind is being coerced to be there.

So again, does Edwin become complicit in the machinations of the club to get laid, or does he respect Rosalind enough to treat her like a human being? Edwin knows that he can just approve her without fucking her, and by the magic of video-games, we the audience can see that play out by choosing to not take advantage of her. I mean, do you just not understand what coercion is and how it works? The fundamentals in unequal power dynamics in human interaction? Or are you really naïve enough to think that Rosalind is there purely of her own volition, and that outside circumstances (again, being manipulated by the Carnation Club itself) have zero role to play here? People do not operate or make decisions in a vacuum.

I kinda get the impression that if a school bully shook a kid down for their lunch money, and said bully beat up the kid for refusing, you'd blame the kid and not the bully cause 'the kid had a choice'.

For some background - the chief reason I accused you of waxing political dogma in prior posts is I've yet to see a single criticism of any female in any of your statements. (well that and gratuitous use of buzzwords as true-degenerate pointed out)

I referenced Derrida because only through a simplistic lense of "There are two classes of people: oppressors and oppressed" does this kind of analysis make sense.

Fortunately for you and unfortunately for me, this type of philosophy has become extremely popular in the past 4 years, so you'll likely have more cohorts than not.



At the end of the day, Ians a piece o crap for cheating, and Mina and Edwin are pieces of crap for entertaining incestuous (so to speak) attractions and relationships. If you're not completely hard up for action, find someone who isn't your friend's ex.

 

[EvolutionKills]

For some background - the chief reason I accused you of waxing political dogma in prior posts is I've yet to see a single criticism of any female in any of your statements. (well that and gratuitous use of buzzwords as true-degenerate pointed out)

I try to cultivate a certain voice with my writing. If that voice caused you a knee-jerk reaction (e.g. SJW? REEEEEEE!), I think that says more about you than it does me.

I referenced Derrida because only through a simplistic lense of "There are two classes of people: oppressors and oppressed" does this kind of analysis make sense.

Fortunately for you and unfortunately for me, this type of philosophy has become extremely popular in the past 4 years, so you'll likely have more cohorts than not.

That's not even remotely close to what I'm doing. I'm trying to point out how context matters, something you seem to conveniently forget or ignore when it's not conducive to the point you're trying to argue. The game is a complex mural of ethical dilemmas and choices, and someone running around going 'they're all just whores' as a blanket pejorative statement needs to be called out on their bullshit. Ditto when others ignore coercion and pretend like someone's trust isn't being violated.

At the end of the day, Ians a piece o crap for cheating, and Mina and Edwin are pieces of crap for entertaining incestuous (so to speak) attractions and relationships. If you're not completely hard up for action, find someone who isn't your friend's ex.

That's your choice to make, but forgoing that and being nice to Mina doesn't make her a whore; and it's sad we gotta pull proverbial teeth here to get to that point.

 

[Turret]

I'm still holding out hope for a Hana/Mina/MC Throuple happily ever after. But if I had to choose a cannon ending, it'd be with Hana. She edges out Mina by a slim margin, but she's too sweet and too "girlfriend/wife material" to not pick. Girl needs the win in my opinion. Assuming the MC can manage to actually be a good guy for her despite his potential inclinations.

If I had one wish for future updates (aside from the inevitable felicia group sex action, it'd be more action with the she-wolf of the SS. She steals every scene she's in, she's interesting, and probably the most attractive in the game.

Its Mina for me. Haven't played through latest update yet, but Mina just seen too good, nice, sweet and proper on outside and kinky slut in private.
Add Felicia to that, strong woman that knows how to handle herself, but also fun and depraved. So best case should be Mina+Felicia for me.

For me the "Girls/LI Trinity" in the game are Hana, Felicia and Sophia, hands down.
About Hana we discussed already long and much, so currently I do not repeat her plus points again.

Felicia is a talented artist we learned, is intelligent, quirky and a loose cannon in the bedroom. What is there not to like? Her husband Elias is an idiot for not seeing the raw diamond he has with her. She would not even be at PC if he would have gotten his head out of his backside and given Feli the money to save/reopen her old school.Something which would not only have been peanuts for him, but gotten him a lot of positive PR.

Doc Sophia Lundgren is a worldclass scientist, intelligent, eccentric, quirky, chessmaster and someone you should never underestimate. She has a Samurai-Daimyo like relationship with Abel, but she will inherit his medical imperium later on. One of the funniest scenes in the game so far is the "nerd squad" of Sophia and Edwin trying to be cool joke tellers and ending up showing only that their nerd humour is an aquired taste.

 

[TD1900]

To be honest, I'm a little disappointed that all the girls in this game are complete whores. Even cute Mina is also a whore. It would be better if Mina remained a gentle sweet girl for a romantic relationship in order to diversify the casts of characters and give MC hope that not all girls are whores and his mother really could not find the best way out of a difficult situation and did everything against her will for the sake of her beloved son.

The Carnations aside, if Mina and Hana fit your definition of a whore and that's all you're getting there, I think you will continue to be disappointed by what the story is clumsily trying to portray. And that's okay, you can keep masturbating to the whores, but just know you are unlikely to find satisfaction in this area by the project's end.

I try to cultivate a certain voice with my writing. If that voice caused you a knee-jerk reaction (e.g. SJW? REEEEEEE!), I think that says more about you than it does me.

I appreciate you taking the time to discuss and for staying on topic. Unfortunately, some people rather address an imaginary caricature when they read certain phrasing rather than the actual content of a post. I would've just thrown up my hands by now.

 

[EvolutionKills]

I would've just thrown up my hands by now.

To be fair, I am having good fun. I also had to fire up the game again just to double check that my recollection of the events wasn't off (e.g. Chuck's text to Edwin before meeting Rosalind for the first time), and that's got me jonesing to do another play through again.

Plus I feel like a huge douche-canoe for getting caught up in the moment with both Hana and then Mina, so I kinda need to go back and correct that before it inevitably blows up in Edwin's face. I love that this game makes me care enough to do that, that I feel genuine guilt and remorse over how I've treated these characters.

 

[lubering]

The Carnations aside, if Mina and Hana fit your definition of a whore and that's all you're getting there, I think you will continue to be disappointed by what the story is clumsily trying to portray. And that's okay, you can keep masturbating to the whores, but just know you are unlikely to find satisfaction in this area by the project's end.

Ok ok, not whores but too slutty girls, maybe I used the word "whores" in relation to Mina and Hana in the wrong way. And I enjoy the game exactly what I expected, but as always it wants more. For Mina, I’ll say that it would be better if she remained a nice girl for romantic relations without obsession with sex pleasure, this would distinguish her from other girls, and so she is practically no different. Well, many people like Mina not because of her character, but only because of her cute face, if she could look like, for example, Ian's nanny Alice, would Mina be so popular?

 

[dolfe67]

Ok ok, not whores but too slutty girls, maybe I used the word "whores" in relation to Mina and Hana in the wrong way. And I enjoy the game exactly what I expected, but as always it wants more. For Mina, I’ll say that it would be better if she remained a nice girl for romantic relations without obsession with sex pleasure, this would distinguish her from other girls, and so she is practically no different. Well, many people like Mina not because of her character, but only because of her cute face, if she could look like, for example, Ian's nanny Alice, would Mina be so popular?

If your kink is "pure", innocent and sexually inexperienced girls, you won't find that in this game.