VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Deleted member 6118633]

I'm looking forward to the Veronica update. She's certainly the least fleshed out of the carnations, and the dev has the opportunity to do something great with her. Both Rose and Felicia have already developed some sort of relationship with Edwin, while his relationship with Veronica still feels rather professional. It's gonna be interesting to see what makes her tick away from her gym and the Club.

I also hope we see more of Ian in the next update. I've really grown to like Ian, and I've become very sympathetic towards his character. I've been thinking about his dynamic with Edwin for a while now, and I've finally decided to comment on it, as their relationship has always bugged me, and I just realized why. I've noticed that Ian looks at Edwin like and older brother, and Edwin generally only tolerates him because of work at best, and treats him like a nuisance at worst. Ian's certainly been putting in the most effort in keeping their "friendship" alive.

Ian gets a lot of flak on here, but I feel like he's a much better person than Edwin. Ian feels like an actual human being, while Edwin feels a lot more cold and aloof, almost like a sociopath. If I had to put it into words, I'd say Ian is a good person surrounded by bad indluences (Chuck, Kat, his parents), while Edwin is a bad person surrounded by good influences (Vicky, Ian, Hana). To me, this dynamic serves to paint Ian as a misguided young man, led astray and neglected by the people he trusts, while Edwin appears "good" on the surface, but there's an unsettling darkness bubbling underneath. I also suspect he's a bit of an unreliable narrator, but we'll see just how fucked up he is as the story progresses.

Edwin is straight up a sociopath/psychopath, I think that's pretty well established, he is someone who is obsessed with and gets a 'high' off having power over others, and he has a superficial attachment to other people and his primary concern with these attachments are not the people themselves, but how they reflect upon him, take for example his mother stating that she has no idea who August is, why would it really make that much of a difference to Edwin if it had been August or some other porn producer, it's because Edwin's actual concern is that he didn't want to suffer the loss of face due to the people he works for having pimped out his mom as a whore, and Edwin's mom is obviously lying btw.

I personally hoped for some route where Mina gets fucked by Edwin in front of Ian, and I think there's still a chance of that happening, Ian seemed to get turned on by Mina making out with Edwin during the drinking game early on in PC, and I think there's a possibility of Mina indulging in some rather dark parts of her psyche, torturing Ian by cucking him with Edwin is certainly something that would fit into her fuck list.

 

[akselx]

Edwin is straight up a sociopath/psychopath, I think that's pretty well established

Eh, I wouldn't say this. It's pretty obvious for a renowned armchair psychologist like myself that he has issues, some form of dissociation, but I wouldn't go as far as to call him a sociopath and definitely not a psychopath. He can clearly emotionally connect and empathise with others, so no.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Edwin is straight up a sociopath/psychopath, I think that's pretty well established, he is someone who is obsessed with and gets a 'high' off having power over others, and he has a superficial attachment to other people and his primary concern with these attachments are not the people themselves, but how they reflect upon him, take for example his mother stating that she has no idea who August is, why would it really make that much of a difference to Edwin if it had been August or some other porn producer, it's because Edwin's actual concern is that he didn't want to suffer the loss of face due to the people he works for having pimped out his mom as a whore, and Edwin's mom is obviously lying btw.

I personally hoped for some route where Mina gets fucked by Edwin in front of Ian, and I think there's still a chance of that happening, Ian seemed to get turned on by Mina making out with Edwin during the drinking game early on in PC, and I think there's a possibility of Mina indulging in some rather dark parts of her psyche, torturing Ian by cucking him with Edwin is certainly something that would fit into her fuck list.

Disagree.
Edwin has sadistic tendencies which he seems to have somewhat channelled through his sexual preferences as he grew older but that is a far cry from being a sociopath. He does not lack empathy, having show instead time and again that he loves his mother. And his hability to put himself on the shoes of the carnations (and others), to try to understand a bit what they are having to endure.

if you want a exemple of a sociopath in Pale Carnations you can simply look at Chuck or Kathleen. They fit the profile a lot more than Edwin.

 

[Deleted member 6118633]

Eh, I wouldn't say this. It's pretty obvious for a renowned armchair psychologist like myself that he has issues, some form of dissociation, but I wouldn't go as far as to call him a sociopath and definitely not a psychopath. He can clearly emotionally connect and empathise with others, so no.

I could swear that there's some dialogue in the game about him not actually feeling connected with other people, and that he's just going through the motions of doing what he believes is expected of him, and with that in mind it's really just him trying to act normal.

But even if I'm misremembering, he's someone who has an unusual capacity for compartmentalization, even Ian says that Edwin can switch his emotions off, and then jokingly refers to Edwin as a "robot". Such behavioral characteristics are associated with sociopathy, so the question is really just how far into the spectrum he is.

 

[akselx]

I could swear that there's some dialogue in the game about him not actually feeling connected with other people, and that he's just going through the motions of doing what he believes is expected of him, and with that in mind it's really just him trying to act normal.

But even if I'm misremembering, he's someone who has an unusual capacity for compartmentalization, even Ian says that Edwin can switch his emotions off, and then jokingly refers to Edwin as a "robot". Such behavioral characteristics are associated with sociopathy, so the question is really just how far into the spectrum he is.

I don't remember any of that, but it's been awhile. Thing is "sociopath" comes with a lot of normative baggage, so it's better to say that he's on the spectrum of it.

 

[Deleted member 6118633]

Disagree.
Edwin has sadistic tendencies which he seems to have somewhat channelled through his sexual preferences as he grew older but that is a far cry from being a sociopath. He does not lack empathy, having show instead time and again that he loves his mother. And his hability to put himself on the shoes of the carnations (and others), to try to understand a bit what they are having to endure.

if you want a exemple of a sociopath in Pale Carnations you can simply look at Chuck or Kathleen. They fit the profile a lot more than Edwin.

Empathy is not really a trait which is excluded from sociopaths or even psychopaths, what is really of concern with the ability of a person to empathize is how high or low functioning they are, classic psychopathic habitual criminals are universally low IQ, however people who nonetheless are psychopaths yet are very high functioning is a common trait for corporate executives, and yes there have been studies done on this. It's not that they can't understand other people's motivations and emotional states, it's that they aren't affected by that in the same manner as normal people, they're cold to it.

In the case of Edwin, is he someone who is overly distraught by the things affecting the carnations and others, or is he someone who understands their suffering on an intellectual level? I think the game makes it rather clear that he's not deeply affected by any of the things he sees, he has an almost universally shallow affect, something also associated with sociopathic and psychopathic behavior, one notable exception is his reaction to his mother lying to him about who she did porn with, and in that case I would yet again ask the question, why does he care so much about who used to pay his mother to get fucked on video? It's because he feels personally denigrated by it.

Psychopaths having a fixation with their own mothers is also something that is actually well established, they can actually have rather obsequious attitudes towards their maternal figures, and Edwin is someone who obsessively watches videos of his mom getting reamed out by groups of guys for money, while he's talking to himself in his internal monologue about how he's going to do everything in his power to make sure she never has to be humiliated again.

 

[se20299]

Edwin is straight up a sociopath/psychopath, I think that's pretty well established, he is someone who is obsessed with and gets a 'high' off having power over others, and he has a superficial attachment to other people and his primary concern with these attachments are not the people themselves, but how they reflect upon him, take for example his mother stating that she has no idea who August is, why would it really make that much of a difference to Edwin if it had been August or some other porn producer, it's because Edwin's actual concern is that he didn't want to suffer the loss of face due to the people he works for having pimped out his mom as a whore, and Edwin's mom is obviously lying btw.

I personally hoped for some route where Mina gets fucked by Edwin in front of Ian, and I think there's still a chance of that happening, Ian seemed to get turned on by Mina making out with Edwin during the drinking game early on in PC, and I think there's a possibility of Mina indulging in some rather dark parts of her psyche, torturing Ian by cucking him with Edwin is certainly something that would fit into her fuck list.

That's an interesting perspective. A lot of people downplay it and brush it aside because "sex work good", but I think that discovering his mom doing porn is the root of Edwin's issues, specifically his sadism and lust for control. All of his past misbihaving cluld've been ironed out with proper parenting and a father figure, but I suspect seeing those clips did something to Edwin that can't be reversed. He's fixated on it too much for it to be anything else.

I talked about it in the past, but my theory is that Vicky wasn't as helpless as Edwin believes she was, and that she enjoyed her porn career far more than he believes. His whole morality is based on doing his best so his mom's "suffering" wasn't for nothing. What would happen to Edwin boy's psyche if his "martyr" mom turned out to be a degenerate whore who enjoyed every frame of her "career". That's why i'm looking forward to the inevitable revelation to Vicky that Edwin knew what she did, and if they can overcome it.

Seriously tho, more Vicky scenes pls. She's the hottest girl in the game. There must be more of those tapes lying around somewhere.

 

[Deleted member 6118633]

That's an interesting perspective. A lot of people downplay it and brush it aside because "sex work good", but I think that discovering his mom doing porn is the root of Edwin's issues, specifically his sadism and lust for control. All of his past misbihaving cluld've been ironed out with proper parenting and a father figure, but I suspect seeing those clips did something to Edwin that can't be reversed. He's fixated on it too much for it to be anything else.

I talked about it in the past, but my theory is that Vicky wasn't as helpless as Edwin believes she was, and that she enjoyed her porn career far more than he believes. His whole morality is based on doing his best so his mom's "suffering" wasn't for nothing. What would happen to Edwin boy's psyche if his "martyr" mom turned out to be a degenerate whore who enjoyed every frame of her "career". That's why i'm looking forward to the inevitable revelation to Vicky that Edwin knew what she did, and if they can overcome it.

Seriously tho, more Vicky scenes pls. She's the hottest girl in the game. There must be more of those tapes lying around somewhere.

I thought that he found out about his mother's involvement in porn during his adolescence, and with that in perspective, a lot of odd behavior had been displayed well before finding out.

 

[lkjhgfdfghjkl]

I could swear that there's some dialogue in the game about him not actually feeling connected with other people, and that he's just going through the motions of doing what he believes is expected of him, and with that in mind it's really just him trying to act normal.

Spending time with Kathleen after the week 2 event explores this a bit

 

[Nick198]

Is Ian having an affair with MC mom?

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Empathy is not really a trait which is excluded from sociopaths or even psychopaths, what is really of concern with the ability of a person to empathize is how high or low functioning they are, classic psychopathic habitual criminals are universally low IQ, however people who nonetheless are psychopaths yet are very high functioning is a common trait for corporate executives, and yes there have been studies done on this. It's not that they can't understand other people's motivations and emotional states, it's that they aren't affected by that in the same manner as normal people, they're cold to it.

In the case of Edwin, is he someone who is overly distraught by the things affecting the carnations and others, or is he someone who understands their suffering on an intellectual level? I think the game makes it rather clear that he's not deeply affected by any of the things he sees, he has an almost universally shallow affect, something also associated with sociopathic and psychopathic behavior, one notable exception is his reaction to his mother lying to him about who she did porn with, and in that case I would yet again ask the question, why does he care so much about who used to pay his mother to get fucked on video? It's because he feels personally denigrated by it.

Psychopaths having a fixation with their own mothers is also something that is actually well established, they can actually have rather obsequious attitudes towards their maternal figures, and Edwin is someone who obsessively watches videos of his mom getting reamed out by groups of guys for money, while he's talking to himself in his internal monologue about how he's going to do everything in his power to make sure she never has to be humiliated again.

Empathy is literally being able to put himself on someone else's place emotionally speaking. Sociopaths aren't able to do that.

No idea from where you are taking all this about Edwin because the game keeps showing how he is able to put himself on others people place. On top of my head i can give two other exemples of when this happen.
First when Edwin shows utter disgust and a bit of anger at the implication that Samson has been stalking Veronica since she was at college, to the point he has to fake interest on the guy's story so he can keep putting a nose over his neck.
The other one, also featuring Veronica is right after the tall redhead was pretty much raped by Kathleen in the middle of a panic attack. Edwin knew that she needed someone to hold and hug her there to keep her from breaking mentally.

There are a few other moments too, like when Edwin is talking with Mina's younger brother.

Were Edwin a sociopath he would never have been able to pick up all those emotional cues from people around them. Feeling guilty and repressed over some of his sexual kinks does not make him a "American Psycho".

 

[Daken9]

That's an interesting perspective. A lot of people downplay it and brush it aside because "sex work good", but I think that discovering his mom doing porn is the root of Edwin's issues, specifically his sadism and lust for control. All of his past misbihaving cluld've been ironed out with proper parenting and a father figure, but I suspect seeing those clips did something to Edwin that can't be reversed. He's fixated on it too much for it to be anything else.

I talked about it in the past, but my theory is that Vicky wasn't as helpless as Edwin believes she was, and that she enjoyed her porn career far more than he believes. His whole morality is based on doing his best so his mom's "suffering" wasn't for nothing. What would happen to Edwin boy's psyche if his "martyr" mom turned out to be a degenerate whore who enjoyed every frame of her "career". That's why i'm looking forward to the inevitable revelation to Vicky that Edwin knew what she did, and if they can overcome it.

Seriously tho, more Vicky scenes pls. She's the hottest girl in the game. There must be more of those tapes lying around somewhere.

Hasn't Edwin already figured that out during the filmed scene with Rose? I seem to remember him havinga flashback of one of Victoria's movie where she was getting cute with the male actor, and coming to the realization that not unlike Rose she may haven decided to take back some of her agency by at least taking some enjoyment out of what she had to do.

Either way though, paradoxically i think Ian would take the news worse than Edwin. Edwin's got a truckload of issues but i wouldn't say he views every woman through a Victoria shaped lens. Maybe sex, but not all women. Meanwhile, Ian's quite the misogynistic prick who out of all the women in his life really only seems to respect Victoria, either because he doesn't sexualize her or because even if he does he still puts her on a pedestal way higher than everyone else. So yeah, based on that read could easily see him go full prick, as opposed to the 3/4 he's sitting at, if even that's taken away and it turns out his personal Virgin Mary isn't really all that unattainable and got gangbanged on tape.

 

[Takkatakka]

Is Ian having an affair with MC mom?

That is at least my theory, that everybody else thinks is bs.

 

[misfolk]

Empathy is not really a trait which is excluded from sociopaths or even psychopaths, what is really of concern with the ability of a person to empathize is how high or low functioning they are, classic psychopathic habitual criminals are universally low IQ, however people who nonetheless are psychopaths yet are very high functioning is a common trait for corporate executives, and yes there have been studies done on this. It's not that they can't understand other people's motivations and emotional states, it's that they aren't affected by that in the same manner as normal people, they're cold to it.

I thought the pop-psych definition was that sociopaths had empathy, but lacked sympathy, that is, they understood people's emotions, but weren't affected by them, while psychopaths lacked both.

This would make Dr. Chuck and most corporate executives sociopaths, while someone like Sophia and Elon Musk (and Ian, I guess) would be classified as psychopaths.

 

[Joshy92]

Yeah, As much as I like the game the part I don't really like is the mc tbh
He is always a bit of a douche.
But I put up with it because the rest of the games is good.
especially the writing and the other characters imo

If this was a lesser game, I would have dropped it ages ago
Because one of the things I hate most about a lot of games on here is
An unlikable mc

Well, that and forced love interests lol

 

[Takkatakka]

Kinda concerning, that TD1900 is liking all these "the MC is a horrible person!" postings.

 

[Idontplay]

Well, I don't think a guy who act like Edwin can be properly defined a good guy. Above all if you take certain decisions during the game; like I did.
Anyway about Ian and Edwin's mother you are wrong (but not alone); until proven otherwise.

 

[ename144]

Kinda concerning, that TD1900 is liking all these "the MC is a horrible person!" postings.

TD's just a fan of a good discussion!

As for the MC, it's clear he has some very dark impulses, but it's also clear (at least at the start of the game) that he doesn't act on them thanks largely to Victoria's influence. His navel-gazing about why he feels the way he does and what it means to be 'good' is simply the mechanism by which he governs those impulses. Kathleen is obviously trying to change that, but presumably it will be up to us if she succeeds.

 

[HUNUTAN]

When will we be able to see the update?

 

[Turret]

This would make Dr. Chuck and most corporate executives sociopaths, while someone like Sophia and Elon Musk (and Ian, I guess) would be classified as psychopaths.

Pardon me, but here you are wrong. While the antisozialen Persönlichkeitsstörungen (APS) "antisocial personality dissorders" have some overlap when it comes to symptoms, there are important differences.
Chuck (and a sizeable number of corporate execs, also media, sales and distribution) is a parade example of a functional psychopath! In his case TD1900 even implanted a mitigating mechanism for Chucks aggressive tendencies, he leads a weapon manufacturer. And Chuck channels a lot of his aggressions off by thinking about what these weapons do. That is not a foolproof thing and there are situations were Chuck WILL react with fearsome aggression, but it helps him functioning in society.
Abel and Sophia are among the few who have seen behind/through Chuck´s facade and van Doren has a special disdain for Chuck. This special disdain is one reason I theorise that in the nicer, good Edwin paths Abel and Sophia might be doing a deep cover infiltration or being at least a better option than the current leadership of PC. I find it quite telling that e.g. you never see Abel or Sophia doing something truly damning, whereas the Club leaders already did so or it was very seriously insinuated.

Sophia Lundgren, from what we saw and read about, is NOT a psychpath. She would definitely score quite "well" on some disorder tests, but she has "just" some sociopathic tendencies as does Edwin, even if we played him as a good guy!
Unlike e.g. Chuck, Kath or partly Ian (who was royally fucked up by his parents and Chuck) and Edwin, who themselves or the game at various times stated deep problems with their feelings and how they fit in, Sophia has empathy, feelings and understanding of said feelings, but due to the credo that "the end justifies the means" and her very Samurai-Daimyo-like relationship with Abel van Doren, she locks off and abstracts them. This could be a heavy version of eccentrism, strengthened by her association with Abel or due to neccessity learned antisocial behaviour.
Case in point, Sophia Lundgren will be Abel´s successor some day and the good doctor van Doren has a special disdain for Chuck and people like him. It is absurd to think he would give his lifework into the hands of another psychopath. Sophia certainly is not normal by common definition, but currently what facts and hints we have point towards a very eccentric genius or a slightly antisocial one.

Since goodish Edwin and Sophia Lundgren can hit it off rather well during the game and both would score similarly on tests like ICD-10, DSM-5 and DSM-5A, I hope and plead to TD and GIL that Sophia Lundgren can become a pursuable Love interest on at least one or two goodish path variants. The MC played a certain way and Sophia fit very well together.