ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
3,208
13,378
Eh, don't really see it. Carrot and stick isn't really discreet, it's just carrot and stick. And if you always go for the stick anyway because you like waving it around, then what are you even trying to accomplish. Case in point, the caddle prod. Her main objective there should be getting Edwin to indulge himself, since she obviously cares about it so much (and she can always torment the girls later), yet as she always often does she over-indulges and all it gathers her is varying degress of wtf from any Edwin who is not as big a psycopath as her.

Which is, imo, Kathleen in a nutshell. Yeah, lots of tools in her arsenal, but always going for the hammer because she can. Even her arguably most underhanded plays, the secret drug deal and the exploitation of her sister's charity, she lowkey can't help mess up, the former by twice using that shit on some random kid for no reason at all (other than again, because she can), and the latter by letting everyone and their mothers know what's up, and how to ruin her if they want to.

I guess i could giver her some credit for forcing Edwin into the porn vid, although even that can blow in her face in a couple ways, but all in all i can see why she's pretty much the brothel's madame and that's about her cap.
First of all, Kathleen uses more than just an unthinking carrot and a stick. Her manipulation of Hana is direct but entirely carrot; the whole point is that Hana is effectively clubbing herself with her own stick. Likewise her decision to leave punishments entirely in the hands of a drugged Veronica in the event of a tie in the punishment game shows a very precise application of the stick then ensures the girls will be busy blaming each other in addition to Kathleen. I count that as successful manipulation. Would she have done even better if she'd successfuly hidden her involvement? I doubt it.

Second, why do you think Kathleen blew her chance to get the MC to indulge himself with the cattle prod? Even if that was her top priority (which is debatable), her approach strikes me as pretty reasonable. Sure, it can fail if we as the player choose to defy her, but that would be true of ANY approach. Kathleen could have gone all out and set up a super-subtle scenario where the MC stumbled upon a chance to abuse an unlikable person without anyone else learning about it- and remember, she only has two weeks left in the competition so the clock is ticking - and I'm still not going to let the MC do it because I don't like that sort of thing. Whereas if I did enjoy tormenting girls in an AVN, Kathleen's approach would have been more than sufficient.

Even if we try to take the player out of it and look strictly at the 'canonical' baseline Edwin, I question the view that a subtle approach would be more effective than an overt one. We *know* the MC is tempted to indulge his sadism. What's holding him back is his vestigial conscience, strengthened by Victoria's admonishment to bottle his anger so he can fit in to society. To break that down Kathleen can't just present the MC with opportunities, she needs to challenge the basic premise. And that's precisely what she did with her birthday present: gave the MC a chance to explore his darker impulses in a safe and technically licit setting. If that wasn't enough to tempt the MC, I'm skeptical a subtler approach would have done better.

Subtlety is a great tool for manipulation, but it's best used when the manipulator needs to isolate themselves from the consequences of their manipulations or prevent their own reputation from influencing the victim. When it comes to tempting the MC, neither of those apply. Embracing the consequences of sadism (and encouraging the MC to do the same) is very much the point, and if the MC balks at that purely to spite Kathleen then he isn't what Kathleen is looking for in the first place.

So yeah, Kathleen's MO is decidedly unsubtle, but a) that doesn't make her ineffective, and b) that doesn't necessarily indicate she's incapable of subtlety in a situation that really demands it.


I'll watch the scene again. Are you sure they weren't filming? remember that they are photographing and filming the Carnations during the week and they're sending those pics and films to the patrons.
They were definitely filming, the question is whether that tape will ever be seen outside the Club. My guess is no. When you're running an illegal prostitution ring, I don't think you release videos of the event that can easily be traced back to Club employees and/or their known associates.
 

YuNobi1

Member
Aug 9, 2021
358
361
I'll watch the scene again. Are you sure they weren't filming? remember that they are photographing and filming the Carnations during the week and they're sending those pics and films to the patrons.

Secondly, did you forget that Edwin watched a flick (it was in the usb drive) where a movie star - Edwin goes to the cinema and watches her movie on 15th June - was gangbanged by the patrons?

Thirdly, did you forget that Abel knows that his mom made porns? who told him?
Oh they definitely filmed it, and it's no doubt accessible to club members, Kathleen's lie was that this would be publicly available to all the porn sites on the internet, just like all of Victoria's old videos are readily available. Previous Carnations competitions have also been recorded, and Edwin had to watch some footage for research on his new duties, but had to be given this video, he couldn't access it before getting his job. There's no difference between Edwin doing the porno acts on-stage or a recording for club members only, as they all already know his face, rather it's the wider internet community, and truly any future potential employers seeing the video and then refusing to hire him, that is the problem. This is also a problem for Rose, but she was supposed to humiliated, while Edwin's life is NOT supposed to be ruined for taking a summer job.

One, Abel has shown that he's good at investigation, and Two, Victoria's videos are publicly available. Victoria naively believes that either her vids are so old that nobody watches them anymore, so Edwin will never see them, or that her son is not the type to surf "those parts of the internet" both of which are untrue. August, Kathleen, and Abel clearly demonstrate that they would thoroughly searched the background of ANYBODY who filled the vacant position, and their associates, whether due to their own backgrounds, or because of the infamous legacy left by Darius. Therefore, given the connections each of them have, the only surprise is how long they each wait to reveal they know about Edwin and his mom.
 

pothb

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2018
1,217
1,341
Why can't incest, NTR, Harem all be in a game. It should be upto the players to go down which route they want to. Games shouldn't restrict them fearing whining of people. Dont use gallery mods to find out if there's anything you don't like in game
Because it would require a lot of work to have all of it, since they'd be different paths, with different dialogue, and different scenes. That and the dev themselves don't wanna.
 

Ottoeight

Forum Fanatic
Mar 13, 2021
4,852
8,514
Why can't incest, NTR, Harem all be in a game. It should be upto the players to go down which route they want to. Games shouldn't restrict them fearing whining of people. Dont use gallery mods to find out if there's anything you don't like in game
Why can't comedy and drama all be in a movie. It should be up to the viewers to go down which story they want to. Movies shouldn't restrict them fearing whining of people. Everything in it: slapstick comedy + comedy of manners + medical drama + war movie + spy story + crime story + fantasy + horror + romance + thriller + procedural police + superheroes + science fiction + western + sports.

Wouldn't it be "nice"? :rolleyes:
 

Takkatakka

Engaged Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,572
7,252
Why can't incest, NTR, Harem all be in a game. It should be upto the players to go down which route they want to. Games shouldn't restrict them fearing whining of people. Dont use gallery mods to find out if there's anything you don't like in game
Because that is not how linear story VNs work.
 
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Idontplay

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,207
1,668
Why can't incest, NTR, Harem all be in a game. It should be upto the players to go down which route they want to. Games shouldn't restrict them fearing whining of people. Dont use gallery mods to find out if there's anything you don't like in game
I think you can find some games in which there are all those contents. Unfortunately (for you) this isn't one of those games and we are happy about that. Anyway I agree with you: the developers shouldn't restrict them, fearing the whining people and be free to decide what contents put in their games or don't.
 

Idontplay

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,207
1,668
Why can't comedy and drama all be in a movie. It should be up to the viewers to go down which story they want to. Movies shouldn't restrict them fearing whining of people. Everything in it: slapstick comedy + comedy of manners + medical drama + war movie + spy story + crime story + fantasy + horror + romance + thriller + procedural police + superheroes + science fiction + western + sports.

Wouldn't it be "nice"? :rolleyes:
No, it wouldn't be nice, because I want also the hystorycal, porn, kid, animation (all kind), live action…
 

Carl0sDanger

Active Member
May 22, 2020
545
817
Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only person on this site that finds harems a turn-off. I would rather have significant, branching interactions with a single love interest than a ton of forced interactions with a bunch of random women.
And that's a fine thing to want, but maybe a game where the MC's job involves participating in live sex shows is not really compatible with the MC being monogamous. Equally though, I'm fine with this game having that "can't catch 'em all" approach.
 

rippertipper

Newbie
Sep 22, 2022
40
142
I blame a generation raised on Pokemon.

No, sometimes you can't catch em all.
Sure you can. That is what multiple saves are for. I have my main run where I just go in blind and follow my gut for better and worse (of course I fell for the first girl to demand monogamy so far lol). Then after I get that save up to date, I explore with my other saves. I love that some games work for harem and do well with it, but I also love that sometimes devs have the stones to realize that not following the cries and whims of this community ultimately leads to better art, especially with these devs and their storytelling and direction and presentation.
As one of the prediction conspiracy theorists who loves to dissect and analyze the characters and story and pretend I have the slightest idea what's going to happen next, like this is the Song of Ice and Fire fandom, I need to gather as much evidence as possible before I post my wild theories here from multiple saves. For example did you know that Abel is time travelled Edwin?!?! Be sure to check out my 3 and a half hour long video essay on this topic :ROFLMAO:
But in all seriousness, I do love Abel as a character. He single handedly shattered my prediction of where the story was going. He's an X factor that doesn't line up with the other character themes and foils and I love it.
 
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TD1900

#701
Game Developer
Dec 8, 2017
748
6,601
Why can't incest, NTR, Harem all be in a game. It should be upto the players to go down which route they want to. Games shouldn't restrict them fearing whining of people. Dont use gallery mods to find out if there's anything you don't like in game
They certainly can be in **a** game, just not this one. And it's not about not inviting people's bitching, because the absence of those traits will also cause people to whine. In fact, no matter what you do, someone will be dissatisfied with it. So, the best thing developers can do is tailor the game to both their personal tastes and what's appropriate for the story they want to tell.

And speaking to my taste, I just don't like harems or incest in stories.

Generally speaking, the MC convincing five women to love and be monogamous solely to him stretches my personal suspension of disbelief a tad too thin in most cases, outside of more shlocky scenarios. It CAN work, but it doesn't suit the tone I want for Pale Carnations.

As for incest, it's usually cheaply done in my opinion, without any sense of weight to the taboo. To do it in a way that I'd be satisfied with, the scenario would have to support it and go in a direction I have no desire for it to go. Plus, I just don't find incest hot, even when done up like a steamy angst-ridden French movie. I did like Dreaming of Dana's approach to it, with the game's ultimate goal being to find a beard to conceal your relationship with your sister. For me, that sold the "society won't accept this" bit that most stories nominally bring up a couple of times but don't ever actually factor into the plot, but I'm also just a sucker for procedural elements.

Anyway, point is, a VN should be more than the sum of its tags, so nevermind what the player wants. Convince them of what you want.
 
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Pr0GamerJohnny

Forum Fanatic
Sep 7, 2022
5,404
7,749
Why can't incest, NTR, Harem all be in a game. It should be upto the players to go down which route they want to. Games shouldn't restrict them fearing whining of people. Dont use gallery mods to find out if there's anything you don't like in game
They certainly can be in **a** game, just not this one. And it's not about not inviting people's bitching, because the absence of those traits will also cause people to whine. In fact, no matter what you do, someone will be dissatisfied with it. So, the best thing developers can do is tailor the game to both their personal tastes and what's appropriate for the story they want to tell.

And speaking to my taste, I just don't like harems or incest in stories.

Generally speaking, the MC convincing five women to love and be monogamous solely to him stretches my personal suspension of disbelief a tad too thin in most cases, outside of more shlocky scenarios. It CAN work, but it doesn't suit the tone I want for Pale Carnations.

As for incest, it's usually cheaply done in my opinion, without any sense of weight to the taboo. To do it in a way that I'd be satisfied with, the scenario would have to support it and go in a direction I have no desire for it to go. Plus, I just don't find incest hot, even when done up like a steamy angst-ridden French movie. I did like Dreaming of Dana's approach to it, with the game's ultimate goal being to find a beard to conceal your relationship with your sister. For me, that sold the "society won't accept this" bit that most stories nominally bring up a couple of times but don't ever actually factor into the plot, but I'm also just a sucker for procedural elements.

Anyway, point is, a VN should be more than the sum of its tags, so nevermind what the player wants. Convince them of what you want.
Everyone here talking about Harem, incest, ntr, yet by FAR the most common theme and tag representation in this game is BDSM, imho at the cost of all others.
 

Pr0GamerJohnny

Forum Fanatic
Sep 7, 2022
5,404
7,749
Funnily enough, I don't even think of us as a BDSM game.
I wouldn't have initially, but after several updates of the contest events, that seems to be the overwhelming theme. Of course, that depends on whether one's focus is on the carnations or the side groups of Mina and Hana.

For the latter, I'd call it very harem-ish, for the former, very BDSMish.
 
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