VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[YuNobi1]

I think any of kats plans regarding going against chuck and august would have been around before edwin joined the club and her plan involved knowing that hana would think Edwin is "attractive" (either "hot" or "attractive/good" enough to stake her entire future in a very very illegal business would be a pretty insane plan especially considering you can lower Hana's affection and raise her anger which seems like a risk kath would want to avoid (giving hana more reason to dislike the club)

Has there been anything in story showing that Chuck would want to give Ian his shares (beyond chuck being a family first guy)? Hana "needs" the money both in the short and long term and august even mentions something about him reflecting on his life recently to Edwin whereas chuck is as reflective as a slab of wet concrete, also Ian is not a guarantee at the club (in the future) either since he has the possibility to be more introspective in the recent updates.

iirc there will be two "paths" that endings will branch off from either Edwin wanting to stay as part of the club or Edwin attempting to leave it so both/either your proposed endings could happen

Spoiler: Hana/Ian/Edwin "rant'

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Kat's plan is either a) keep her job, ideally while gaining more liberty to run things as she pleases, or b) ensure her legacy in the club. She knows Hana is morally/ethically against the club, but since August has named her as his heir, Kat needs to ensure that 1st) Hana doesn't shut down the club completely, 2nd) Hana doesn't stop the Carnations Competition, and if possible 3) grant Kat more leeway than she ever had under August and Chuck. She also takes every opportunity and uses every strategy afforded to her, so if Edwin offers an opportunity to sway Hana toward her goals, Kat won't hesitate.

Both August and Chuck are actually self-reflective, but since their lives have (allegedly) taken different paths, they've come to different conclusions. August sees that he's done so little good that he must recompense for all his evils, while Chuck realizes that he has so little time left to state his lusts, rather than spreading out that enjoyment across a lifetime (which he regrets). Although Chuck's death is likely closer than August's, the mobster's guilt presses him to be more zealous in paying off his debt than Chuck's "eat, drink, and be horny, for tomorrow I literally will die." So if both men are looking at their final moments, and August has already been making moves, Chuck is definitely thinking about his place in the club, and what his death would mean, but naturally this isn't something he would advertise, or open up about until the only correct moment (which may be the reading of his will). The other reason not to name his heir yet is because it's uncertain. Like you said: neither Ian's nor Edwin's long-term futures with the club seem certain, and not because they will be fired, but because neither yet seem interested/motivated to make the club a permanent feature in their lives. Ian certainly matches Chuck's current hedonism, but he lacks any drive beyond that, so not exactly apt to inherit a third of the management/administration of the club. Edwin reminds Chuck a lot of his younger self, especially the drive to become a doctor, thus he does share his regrets of not embracing this perverted side of him when he was full of youthful energy and vigor, to direct Edwin not to make the same mistake. However, Victoria's history causes concern over Edwin's psychology, and what he would do were he given "the keys to the kingdom"; plus Chuck's no doubt concerned about Kat influencing the young man, so naming him heir is not a given either.

Yes, I agree that it's not a given that Hana-Ian-Edwin will become the new management. Kat doesn't strike me as willing to retire any time soon, and Edwin is more of a future ally to her, an additional voice to let Kat run things her way, rather than a dynastic successor. August is guaranteed to be handing over his power, position, and investment to Hana. Chuck indeed has made no inferences to his inheritance, but he has clearly shown that he has been thinking about his inevitable demise, thus leading to fan speculation over what his plan/goal is post-mortem. Although TD is nowhere near as heavy-handed as Tess in "Karlssons Gambit", there have been a few hypothetical musings about what Edwin would do if he were in charge (like effectively confessing to Dahlia in the sauna that he would have better protections for the house girls), so TD is inferring this to be a possible player-choice future. Whether Ian is the third executive, or takes over if Edwin/player walks away, or is not involved at all, or if these are each player-dependent, is known only to TD and GIL at this point.

 

[se20299]

I think Kat's long term plan was always to get rid of August, as he's a hardline businessman that barely tolerates Kat's frivolous games that he sees as a waste of money, as the Club made money and connections regardless, by prostuting the girls. August is a straightforward person, he's in the ho business for the money, girls and partying. Chuck is probably also there just to get his rocks off, and probably doesn't pose much threat to Kat's plans as long as he gets to join in on the fun occasionaly. Kat seems a lot more ideological than those two, and she seems to get off on the psychological torture and humilliation more that the actual sex part. We also know that she doesn't care about profits much, as she's laundering money from her sister's charity, and the club is more of a hobby for her, while for August, the club is his livelihood.

Obviously, Kat can't get rid of August directly, as one of his mafia associates would probably take over, and they wouldn't be as understanding towards Kat. That's where Hana comes in, as she can use Hana to indirectly dethrone August, because as long as his shares go to Hana, Kat is the winner, as Hana is a lot more naive and easy to manipulate than August. Edwin is the only variable here. Him joining the club is the biggest stroke of luck, or the biggest curse for Kat, depending on how you play him. Kat's current play seems to be to use Edwin's budding relationship with Hana to make the Club more attractive to her, and is hoping her daddy issues have made her inclined to get back at August for years of neglect.

 

[GokutheG]

I wonder if they could make it more humane while still having people pay for it but all ending speculations change pretty heavily every update so who knows?

I read Felicia as trying to get "power" that is hers instead of her husbands. Sure she gets whatever she could possibly want but was given no chance to do something she actually wanted despite it not even being a direct benefit to her and that it would have been easy to solve (the school she mentions) hit her pretty hard. There might be other ways perhpas even better ways to get "power" but she enjoys sex, her husband is kind of a dick, and I doubt Ian was 100% transparent about how much sadism was involved at the club (probably didn't mention shock batons)

However I personally think her "prize" is by far the best of the 3.

Rose paying off the debts (and none of the debt collectors being shady and trying to collect later/the huge risk (to her) that her daughter finds out) comes out at a net zero

Veronicas gym stuff being resolved MAYBE puts her at 0 (but learning that literally the last few months of her life has been a game for samson to fuck her is pretty soul crushing especially after the competition)

Felica getting connections (if nobody else Chuck understands/respects/will tell people to shut up so he can watch her) not only right now but for possibly years puts her tangibly ahead of where she started. Probably not the smartest play but damnit if it isn't the most interesting.

Felicia doesn't even know that the others are only in the competition due to desperation and not perverse fun. I don't think her prize is power in the traditional sense. It seems she had devalued herself to the point where she only believes her body is important and her intellect is not important. Winning a seat with so many powerful people is the boost to her ego that she's looking for.

 

[Simpgor]

if Edwin/player walks away, or is not involved at all, or if these are each player-dependent, is known only to TD and GIL at this point.

I agree with basically every point made about Kath its just the way the post I quoted made it sound (to me) was that it was all part of plan which is a far cry from her just being smart about the current situation.

I feel like August is closer to kicking the bucket if for no other reason than Van Doren wont let chuck die until he "beats" him but chuck playing it close to vest brings up an interesting question: if he left it to the last minute (his will) would his wishes even line up with the person he named? Ian and Edwin are the most obvious and Edwin (the player) will 99.99999% have the choice to leave the club. Even if Edwin wants to leave but is forced to stay as a "successor" how would they ensure he is doing "a good job"? but like you say this is far future stuff so really we are just having some fun throwing darts

Felicia doesn't even know that the others are only in the competition due to desperation and not perverse fun. I don't think her prize is power in the traditional sense. It seems she had devalued herself to the point where she only believes her body is important and her intellect is not important. Winning a seat with so many powerful people is the boost to her ego that she's looking for.

uhhhhh unless I really read it wrong I think you are wrong

1. The girls reasons for joining aren't exactly secret? i am pretty sure Kathleen has also mentioned why the others are up there during their shows, oh and when she tells edwin her reason for joining he laughs and says something along the lines of "if its you, pulling something this crazy off might be possible" (on her friends roof) which wouldnt make sense if she was in for the same reasons that Rose/Veronica was

2. iirc she more or less says (same convo on her friends roof) that she wants connections/power/ability to do stuff for herself

3. If its to do with her ego (from self esteem related to body) then why would she mention a school as the thing that kicked this off? Did she think that if she was hotter her husband would have approved the donation/grant or whatever?

4. where does she say that only her body is important and that her mind isn't? That flies in the face of the scene of Edwin fingering her at the end of the 2nd show. She isnt just her body (like rose and veronica are just up there because they are sexy they don't want to be) because on some level Felica wants to be there (simialr to how Edwin is on stage), she is embracing herself (the reason why chuck tells the others to shut the hell up) which you cant do if you only value part of yourself......

 

[GokutheG]

I agree with basically every point made about Kath its just the way the post I quoted made it sound (to me) was that it was all part of plan which is a far cry from her just being smart about the current situation.

I feel like August is closer to kicking the bucket if for no other reason than Van Doren wont let chuck die until he "beats" him but chuck playing it close to vest brings up an interesting question: if he left it to the last minute (his will) would his wishes even line up with the person he named? Ian and Edwin are the most obvious and Edwin (the player) will 99.99999% have the choice to leave the club. Even if Edwin wants to leave but is forced to stay as a "successor" how would they ensure he is doing "a good job"? but like you say this is far future stuff so really we are just having some fun throwing darts




uhhhhh unless I really read it wrong I think you are wrong

1. The girls reasons for joining aren't exactly secret? i am pretty sure Kathleen has also mentioned why the others are up there during their shows, oh and when she tells edwin her reason for joining he laughs and says something along the lines of "if its you, pulling something this crazy off might be possible" (on her friends roof) which wouldnt make sense if she was in for the same reasons that Rose/Veronica was

2. iirc she more or less says (same convo on her friends roof) that she wants connections/power/ability to do stuff for herself

3. If its to do with her ego (from self esteem related to body) then why would she mention a school as the thing that kicked this off? Did she think that if she was hotter her husband would have approved the donation/grant or whatever?

4. where does she say that only her body is important and that her mind isn't? That flies in the face of the scene of Edwin fingering her at the end of the 2nd show. She isnt just her body (like rose and veronica are just up there because they are sexy they don't want to be) because on some level Felica wants to be there (simialr to how Edwin is on stage), she is embracing herself (the reason why chuck tells the others to shut the hell up) which you cant do if you only value part of yourself......

But doesn't she also take it as a game? Not only does Kat tell her that this isn't for her fun(which she brushes off later) she also pisses off the others when she says they should also try to have fun during the contest. To me this says that she doesn't take what they're going through as serious and likely didn't hear Kat's bio on them or think she was exaggerating to play on the members' feelings of superiority.

Yeah I think she'd want to use the position to guide the members to do good in the city.

 

[Simpgor]

But doesn't she also take it as a game? Not only does Kat tell her that this isn't for her fun(which she brushes off later) she also pisses off the others when she says they should also try to have fun during the contest. To me this says that she doesn't take what they're going through as serious and likely didn't hear Kat's bio on them or think she was exaggerating to play on the members' feelings of superiority.

Yeah I think she'd want to use the position to guide the members to do good in the city.

I guess how much someone takes something as a game is subjective compared to the other two she views it the most as a "game" because she does try to have more fun than the other two because like i said she is the most honest with herself and she enjoys more (consensual) stuff than the other two. However on the other hand she is still in a bad mood about the show well after it ended (was angry when Edwin called her recently), which would be weird if it was just a game. However the fingering scene (really one of the best in the game imo) pushes it more towards not being a game.

If it was a game she wouldn't talk down while also comparing herself to the people who decides if she wins or lose, those emotions are also very unlikely to be faked because chuck whose whole deal is he didnt embrace himself until he was old and saggy paid more attention to someone getting fingered than (from what he had seen/heard) than he did to anything else that had taken place so far.

Edit: Oh and Kath sending Edwin to her house without her knowledge (or consent) with a fake name/job is another in the "she doesn't view it purely as a game" pile

 

[Ottoeight]

I think Kat's long term plan was always to get rid of August, as he's a hardline businessman that barely tolerates Kat's frivolous games that he sees as a waste of money, as the Club made money and connections regardless, by prostuting the girls. August is a straightforward person, he's in the ho business for the money, girls and partying. Chuck is probably also there just to get his rocks off, and probably doesn't pose much threat to Kat's plans as long as he gets to join in on the fun occasionaly. Kat seems a lot more ideological than those two, and she seems to get off on the psychological torture and humilliation more that the actual sex part. We also know that she doesn't care about profits much, as she's laundering money from her sister's charity, and the club is more of a hobby for her, while for August, the club is his livelihood.

Obviously, Kat can't get rid of August directly, as one of his mafia associates would probably take over, and they wouldn't be as understanding towards Kat. That's where Hana comes in, as she can use Hana to indirectly dethrone August, because as long as his shares go to Hana, Kat is the winner, as Hana is a lot more naive and easy to manipulate than August. Edwin is the only variable here. Him joining the club is the biggest stroke of luck, or the biggest curse for Kat, depending on how you play him. Kat's current play seems to be to use Edwin's budding relationship with Hana to make the Club more attractive to her, and is hoping her daddy issues have made her inclined to get back at August for years of neglect.

We saw Kat telling our shady Abel scientist that August isn't a problem for them, but Uncle Chuck is. Then we saw Chuck telling Kat: "don't involve Edwin in your damn scientific experiment". Then we saw Abel having this infamous conversation with Edwin where he basically warns Edwin about Chuck.
So, may I say that the hidden reason why Abel had that conversation with Edwin is that he wants to jeopardise Edwin (and Ian?)'s trust in Chuck?

Just a hunch.

 

[YuNobi1]

Edit: Oh and Kath sending Edwin to her house without her knowledge (or consent) with a fake name/job is another in the "she doesn't view it purely as a game" pile

I personally chuck that up to the "boundaries" of "game/private life" and Felicity's "public/marriage life". Her response is no different from Edwin finding out Kat has been talking to Victoria, or how Kat would respond if someone from the club came to her house... especially if her husband the judge was home at the time. Felicity is very motivated to play her games in the places she chooses, but Edwin showing up at her house under false pretenses screams "Kat's doing", thus Felicity rightfully sees the act as Kat playing dirty. However, since it is Edwin, whom she already likes as a boy-toy, she switches into "game mode" whenever she is sure her husband won't see or hear, thus why she goes full throttle in the bath tub and his office after he leaves. So yeah, very much a game for her... until the cattle prod comes out.

 

[Simpgor]

I personally chuck that up to the "boundaries" of "game/private life" and Felicity's "public/marriage life". Her response is no different from Edwin finding out Kat has been talking to Victoria, or how Kat would respond if someone from the club came to her house... especially if her husband the judge was home at the time. Felicity is very motivated to play her games in the places she chooses, but Edwin showing up at her house under false pretenses screams "Kat's doing", thus Felicity rightfully sees the act as Kat playing dirty. However, since it is Edwin, whom she already likes as a boy-toy, she switches into "game mode" whenever she is sure her husband won't see or hear, thus why she goes full throttle in the bath tub and his office after he leaves. So yeah, very much a game for her... until the cattle prod comes out.

That's a fair opinion, how differently do you expect her to act while on stage if at all?

 

[Turret]

Kat is in the early stages of a powerplay for full leadership in the club. While it is likely her goal to become sole leader, her play is aimed mostly at August, since unlike the other "Elders" he is in the club for business alone and just tolerates the excesses of the other two (he and Chuck might be old friends, but it is clear from dialog he dislikes most of the "games" Chuck and Kat play).
Luckily for Kat August as he aged has become more self-reflective and recognised that he had done few and little good so far and tries to amend at least some of his deeds.
He tries to reconnect with his daughter (with dubious success so far) and wants to give her his share of the Club later on. Good for Kat it seems, but there is a problem. While Hana is not opposed to the brothel part of the Club (she said so in dialog), she is very much against the abuse and coercion happening. So Kat has to get Hana to sell her shares to herself by keeping Hana nad August from really reconnecting or influence Hana enough so she let´s Kat lead.

Edwin is the perfect tool for it if Kat can mold/influence him to help her. In addition to counter August´s mob connections at least a bit, she has secured influential backers of her own, Abel and Sophia. But here Kat made a mistake she does not know about. Abel and Sophia play their own game and detest the PC leadership deeply. Only because their goals align somewhat Abel and Sophia back Kat. If you develop a good relationship with Abel and Sophia as far it is possible in the game currently it becomes clear the the two might back Kat for now, but they want to get rid of her too.
TD and GiL made the interesting move to include another female influence on Edwin beside Kat and Viktoria, who are more the Angel/Devil part: Sophia Lundgren, who Edwin can click and connect with rather easily and this eccentric nerd represents what Edwin could also become in the future.
It is unknown currently what plans Abel and Sophia have with Edwin, since a meeting with Sophia showed she and Edwin can click well together, it was also partly a test of him, but they have plans for our MC.

As mentioned before I hope we get the chance to open up a path to Sophia´s heart, because she, a completely amoral eccentric nerd genius, would represent a rather unique pursuit route and Love interest compared to the more "standard" ones.

 

[Takkatakka]

Kinda weird how people assume Edwin staying with the club would be a good ending?! Isn't the point of the story so far that that would be a bad ending?

The good ending would be to help the women and then get out of the club and go to Medschool?!

 

[YuNobi1]

That's a fair opinion, how differently do you expect her to act while on stage if at all?

I would compare Felicity to the Flash in the Justice League animated series: sees everything as a game up until "things get serious" on a personal level. Felicity's last Exhibition performance and her rough treatment with the cattle prod, and thus the loss of her playmate, has pushed her past her naivete. To go forward now without quitting, she either has to double-down on her self-delusion that "it's all fun and games", or "alright, this is more than I bargained for, but momma didn't raise no quitter". Considering she feels betrayed by Edwin, I'm guessing the latter, but she might throw a "happy-go-lucky" facade to the club audience, even though everyone on-stage knows about her perspective change, thinking that's her best play to keep the patrons' interest in her come the final vote.

 

[SlowGoesSlow]

Kinda weird how people assume Edwin staying with the club would be a good ending?! Isn't the point of the story so far that that would be a bad ending?

The good ending would be to help the women and then get out of the club and go to Medschool?!

Not getting sucked into the club's depravity and ultimately leaving the club after his goals are completed does sound like the best ending for Edwin.

 

[Elduriel]

Kinda weird how people assume Edwin staying with the club would be a good ending?! Isn't the point of the story so far that that would be a bad ending?

The good ending would be to help the women and then get out of the club and go to Medschool?!

afaik he already does go to medschool, but the game takes place during the summer. During the rest of the year the club isn't that demanding on his time and is open during the weekends so it would be feasible for him to continue working there, it's just a regular brothel when the exhibition is not ongoing.

 

[Turret]

I would compare Felicity to the Flash in the Justice League animated series: sees everything as a game up until "things get serious" on a personal level. Felicity's last Exhibition performance and her rough treatment with the cattle prod, and thus the loss of her playmate, has pushed her past her naivete. To go forward now without quitting, she either has to double-down on her self-delusion that "it's all fun and games", or "alright, this is more than I bargained for, but momma didn't raise no quitter". Considering she feels betrayed by Edwin, I'm guessing the latter, but she might throw a "happy-go-lucky" facade to the club audience, even though everyone on-stage knows about her perspective change, thinking that's her best play to keep the patrons' interest in her come the final vote.

Not to nitpick, but it is Felicia, not Felicity. Beside that, Edwin does not have to betray Feli during the cattle prod episode! He can actually also play a role together with Felicia where they act out a prodding but it is an act with a minimum of prodding done. So Edwin and Felicia can even become more trusting with each other during the cattle prod episode, it hinges on what you play and decide.

 

[TheresiaW]

I finally finished "Chapter 4 Update 3" and what should I say...

The beginning of the game was boring and I didn't know if I really want will finish this game.
But then came the first encounter with Rosalind and I got curious. Scene after scene, encounter after encounter, the game got better and better and more interesting. I tried all (most?) routes to experience all paths. I like the different dynamics of the women and the freedom to (partially) influence the game with your own decisions.

Now, after several hours of fun, I must say that this game climbed up in my Top 5 games of all games I´ve ever played.

Many thanks to the developers. I can't wait to play the next update

 

[Ottoeight]

afaik he already does go to medschool, but the game takes place during the summer. During the rest of the year the club isn't that demanding on his time and is open during the weekends so it would be feasible for him to continue working there, it's just a regular brothel when the exhibition is not ongoing.

No. US medical degrees are different. You get a bachelor's degree in science, then you enter med school.

As Edwin tells Abel when he first meet him, he has just become a bachelor in science: he will enter the med school at the end of summer.

The game is set in the USA, I guess.

 

[Elduriel]

No. US medical degrees are different. You get a bachelor's degree in science, then you enter med school.

As Edwin tells Abel when he first meet him, he has just become a bachelor in science: he will enter the med school at the end of summer.

The game is set in the USA, I guess.

right, been a while since I played from the beginning, thanks for the correction

 

[YuNobi1]

The game is set in the USA, I guess.

Well it's certainly not UK or Japan, considering which side Felicia's steering wheel is on.

 

[Ottoeight]

Well it's certainly not UK or Japan, considering which side Felicia's steering wheel is on.

Her right hand might slip and land you know where...