VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[TERES]

That's what I was thinking, but apparently my post was nothing but a "questionable conclusion" so I was dying to hear his understanding of what happened.

And I figured that this behaviour wouldn't exactly be a one-time thing, so it's a good thing it happened early on so I could get out and not have to deal with Kathleen as a character. Would've been far worse if that scene was pulled out of the blue after like 10 hours of gameplay for example.

That scene with Keth is bonus reward is avoidable. When you choose one of three carnations for photo session you must not exceed 3 points with her. If you exceed you will have surprise reward from Kath

 

[Simpgor]

Or is "get a facial out of a blue from a random dude" supposed to be a totally normal behavior and in no way humiliating and fucked up, and it's only MC's treatment that really matters?

if they had kept reading they would have laughed at Ian confirming Kath did butt stuff with him while if Kath put a finger on MCs cheeks he would be posting about it here. I mean did they even make an attempt to defend what happened to the girls despite multiple people pointing it out? It only crossed the line when MC got involved (in a non domination way).

By that point you've already seen MCs mom get gangbanged and verbally degraded by the people there as well as confirmation that it did not just happen once, use rosilands love of her daughter and debt to a criminal organization to sexually take advantage of her before the competition even starts, seen 3 random women in a "free use competition (knowing that the club takes advantage of women), kathleen literally doing the same thing he is pissed about but no injection (kathleen forces MC to inhale her scent and cum on one of the girls faces), the stuffed with egg vibes directly into drugged wine directly into Vero being TIED UP AND FORCED TO EAT A BUNCH OF BORDERLINE INEDIBLE STUFF, Lucy being forced to fuck someone just for a chance to be a carnation, Vero literally manhandling kathleen until she cums against her will, and kath lightly dominating whichever girl (photoshoot) wasn't picked by MC/Ian

Like I knew he was being obtuse/clearly "wrong" in his opinion but when it's all spelled out like that it's hilarious. Literally everything is fine even when the same thing happens to a slightly lesser extent until a non consensual injection is involved

 

[GokutheG]

That's what I was thinking, but apparently my post was nothing but a "questionable conclusion" so I was dying to hear his understanding of what happened.

And I figured that this behaviour wouldn't exactly be a one-time thing, so it's a good thing it happened early on so I could get out and not have to deal with Kathleen as a character. Would've been far worse if that scene was pulled out of the blue after like 10 hours of gameplay for example.

That's sad but understandable. The dynamic between the two is actually very interesting. I'll just say that later on she tries to push a certain button and you can make it VERY clear not to do it again. Now I'll just say that later on her focus shifts to breaking the Carnations.

I'll just give you some insight into why I think their dynamic is so interesting. Kat starts to believe that the mc is as fucked up as her and her actions so far are to try and get him to fall. You can indulge her/your darker impulses, stand up to her or even get on her good side without going too far.

Can I suggest you try the game until the first full Carnation event? The writing is well done and it's possible you'll enjoy the game after this initial uncomfortable non femdom scene.

 

[ffive]

Ian confirming Kath did butt stuff with him

Wait, Kat has pegged Ian? Damn, i either made wrong choices in the dialogue and didn't get that, or somehow managed to forget it.

Daaamn, now i feel like Edwin is missing out

 

[ename144]

Also:

I'm sorry, but in the very scene that got your hackles up Kat makes MC jerk off and ejaculate on face of one of the girls who were just introduced to the club. If this doesn't indicate that she also subjects others than MC who work under her to her whims and fucked up treatment... then what would?

Or is "get a facial out of a blue from a random dude" supposed to be a totally normal behavior and in no way humiliating and fucked up, and it's only MC's treatment that really matters?

I think Ciaran8023's point was that there was no indication prior to taking the job that working for Kathleen would subject the MC to the same sort of sadism as the girls. Which is true in a literal sense. But IMHO, that's part of the point of the game: the MC's decision to work at the Club will have consequences, and not all of them will be under our direct control.

The game spends a great deal of effort establishing the morally dubious framework for the Club long before we work there - things like the MC ruminating on whether he's truly a good guy or merely lacked the opportunity to do bad, or the opportunity to exploit Rosalind simply because she agreed to it in a general sense. Kathleen drugging the MC is yet another aspect of that: the MC signed up for a dubious job, and it turns out not be what he thought it was. What does that say about the things the Carnations and the various house girls will be subjected to in the future?

To me, Kathleen's highly unethical railroading is a vital part of the story. It's supposed to be beyond the pale precisely to highlight the way a lot of the other things we will have control over are just as dubious. I've said before that working for the Club is a Faustian bargain, and Kathleen's treatment of the MC is an early reminder that someday there will be a bill. I do not blame anyone who wants no part of that sort of thing and abandons the game as a result; I consider this game top notch, but it IS very much an acquired taste.

I do not, however, think Kathleen's abuse of the MC is sub-par writing. Distasteful as it is, I think it's very much the opposite.

 

[GokutheG]

Wait, Kat has pegged Ian? Damn, i either made wrong choices in the dialogue and didn't get that, or somehow managed to forget it.

Daaamn, now i feel like Edwin is missing out

Why do I feel that during Ian was busy thinking of Edwin.

 

[Simpgor]

Wait, Kat has pegged Ian? Damn, i either made wrong choices in the dialogue and didn't get that, or somehow managed to forget it.

Daaamn, now i feel like Edwin is missing out

I don't recall how far he mentioned it going (off hand mention is all we get iirc) but I'm 99% certain Ian makes reference to Kath doing prostate related stuff?

I think Ciaran8023's point was that there was no indication prior to taking the job that working for Kathleen would subject the MC to the same sort of sadism as the girls. Which is true in a literal sense. But IMHO, that's part of the point of the game: the MC's decision to work at the Club will have consequences, and not all of them will be under our direct control.

Disagree because before the scene where he quit (forced injection) kathleen calls MC to her car JUST to say "hey I know your mommy did porn lol umad?" (Technically give him a usb which she in no way had to hand deliver) which is actual real literal blackmail.....

IMO that clearly shows that she is going to mentally fuck with MC, there is even direct evidence that kathleen is fine using the drug perfume despite Edwin being the only one in the car with her (stare at her tits or not)

Dude was way more respectful than most people who are objectively wrong but that doesn't change the fact that they ignored/skipped a half dozen examples of "femdom" before one snuck up on them

 

[Ciaran8023]

I think Ciaran8023's point was that there was no indication prior to taking the job that working for Kathleen would subject the MC to the same sort of sadism as the girls. Which is true in a literal sense. But IMHO, that's part of the point of the game: the MC's decision to work at the Club will have consequences, and not all of them will be under our direct control.

The game spends a great deal of effort establishing the morally dubious framework for the Club long before we work there - things like the MC ruminating on whether he's truly a good guy or merely lacked the opportunity to do bad, or the opportunity to exploit Rosalind simply because she agreed to it in a general sense. Kathleen drugging the MC is yet another aspect of that: the MC signed up for a dubious job, and it turns out not be what he thought it was. What does that say about the things the Carnations and the various house girls will be subjected to in the future?

To me, Kathleen's highly unethical railroading is a vital part of the story. It's supposed to be beyond the pale precisely to highlight the way a lot of the other things we will have control over are just as dubious. I've said before that working for the Club is a Faustian bargain, and Kathleen's treatment of the MC is an early reminder that someday there will be a bill. I do not blame anyone who wants no part of that sort of thing and abandons the game as a result; I consider this game top notch, but it IS very much an acquired taste.

I do not, however, think Kathleen's abuse of the MC is sub-par writing. Distasteful as it is, I think it's very much the opposite.

You pointed things out rather accurately so I don't really have anything to add.
I do however want to point out that, in case it was lost, it was sub-par from a femdom point of view as a lot of games and people on f95 seem to believe that this is just 'regular' femdom type content. I don't know the dev(s) so I had no indication of what their view of femdom was, which is why I used that terminology as.. well let's be real, dude got sexually assaulted, no real way around that.
It does the job exceedingly well in presenting her as an absolute irredeemable piece of shit however, so yes, in that sense it is well written. As I said, the game has good writing, I took offense to the character and the scene aswell as the potential issue of perpetuating a flawed view on femdom.

That's sad but understandable. The dynamic between the two is actually very interesting. I'll just say that later on she tries to push a certain button and you can make it VERY clear not to do it again. Now I'll just say that later on her focus shifts to breaking the Carnations.

I'll just give you some insight into why I think their dynamic is so interesting. Kat starts to believe that the mc is as fucked up as her and her actions so far are to try and get him to fall. You can indulge her/your darker impulses, stand up to her or even get on her good side without going too far.

Can I suggest you try the game until the first full Carnation event. The writing is well done and it's possible you'll enjoy the game after this initial uncomfortable non femdom scene.

I'll.. give it some thought. I'm generally very laid back when it comes to most things, I can basically play essentially anything that has tags that are usually quite disliked and I'll be fine with it if it's written well, it's just that certain characters and scenes instantly starts thumbing on the principles I have.

I might check it out more later, you do make a convincing argument.

 

[Biscardone]

Sure, but it doesn't change what it was. I'm not one to beat around the bush as arguably it was less femdom and more just outright sexual assault. If people like sexual assault, sure, but to say that it was an accurate representation of femdom would be facetious at best and malicious at worst.

Well, again, noting that scene as something that's a poor representation of femdom isn't exactly an opinion, it genuinely is a poor representation. If you're wanting to get into kinkplay and someone decides to blackmail you and touch you without your consent, that isn't femdom even though a lot of AVN's on here seem to think so (which is also it's own issue entirely). Hell, the only reason why I'm calling it femdom and not sexual assault is because so many people on here have such a skewed understanding of what femdom is.

EDIT: I also like to add that I'm someone who enjoys femdom as a tag, which is also why I react a bit more than most when I see a poor representation of it, especially in a popular game. Why? Because there are a ton of people playing this, and likely quite a lot of them will draw inspiration from it for their own projects, which might just perpetuate this extremely shitty and toxic "femdom must be forced and non-consensual" type shit that quite a few games have gone into over the last 3 - 4 years or so. That isn't a good thing. It's like if games all of the sudden started noting "big tits" as only being hyper-inflated bimbo balloons, sure it's "technically" big tits but I reckon quite a few people who are into big tits would have something against it.

Well, I think we've reached the core issue. You've stretched the definition of "femdom" to unreasonable limits to include any form of abuse, rape included. However, I can assure you nobody here agrees with that definition - first of all the author (TD) himself, as he told you in person - and the scene is not meant to be interpreted as femdom. You don't like the scene? You're not supposed to like the scene. So if you're repulsed by it and don't want to play the game because of it, that's fine. Just, stop judging it with an unfitting metric, or as an attempt to pollute the femdom pool.

Oh, and by the way:

It would take someone with terminal brain damage to not recognize poorly veiled blackmail and a shitty attempt at femdom.

The devs (and mods) deserve better than having to deal with your bullshit. They don't get paid enough to do that.

The devs also deserve not to be called out as writers of "poorly veiled blackmail and a shitty attempt at femdom", when it's clearly not their intent. Or terminally brain damaged, by extension (since they also can't recognize it, apparently).

 

[Ciaran8023]

Well, I think we've reached the core issue. You've stretched the definition of "femdom" to unreasonable limits to include any form of abuse, rape included. However, I can assure you nobody here agrees with that definition - first of all the author (TD) himself, as he told you in person - and the scene is not meant to be interpreted as femdom. You don't like the scene? You're not supposed to like the scene. So if you're repulsed by it and don't want to play the game because of it, that's fine. Just, stop judging it with an unfitting metric, or as an attempt to pollute the femdom pool.

I haven't stretched the definition of femdom, F95 has aswell as a handful of other devs. It's the same shit with the NTR tag, and no one on this green earth can know exactly what type of understanding the dev or devs have of it until you play what they've created. If you see a femdom tag it can be anything from forceful sexual advances, to blackmail, to covert scheming (i.e femdom character toys with another characters freedom and future to get them in line) and a host of other things, most of which do not belong in femdom. Same with NTR, that can be anything from netorare to netori to netorase, and it can take the form of anything from severe humiliation to covert cheating to overtly cheating and psychologically harming etc, again most of which don't really have a place within NTR specifically and technically belongs to other tags (or should atleast).

If a dev creates something that mimics a lot of other poor attempts and understanding of a certain kink, I will call that out. That's just how it is. If it wasn't the devs intent, they would say so, which they have so your post didn't really have a point at all. None of what I posted was problematic because as stated, I had no indication of intention with the scene at all, so your vehement and forceful defensiveness is just essentially going "ha I told you so" because you had information that I didn't.

Oh, and by the way:
The devs also deserve not to be called out as writers of "poorly veiled blackmail and a shitty attempt at femdom", when it's clearly not their intent.

People do deserve to be called out on stuff when there's no disclaimer of their intent. As said, you're posting with information that I do not have nor have had access to unless I fine-comb over 700 pages of responses when I made my post. That in itself is arguing from a fallacious standpoint.
No one is exempt from critique, especially not when it isn't remotely conveyed at first glance as to what the scene is supposed to portray, and no one is confused about what the scene actually was.

 

[Simpgor]

Too bad the Skinner "the children are wrong meme" doesn't apply here; they arent even entertaining the fact that they could be wrong its 99% of readers, and even the damn creator who are wrong. The guy who (thankfully left) that unironically claimed any sort of oral sex was degrading and thus femdom? Now that guy was right and ahead of his time

 

[RoamingZone]

i swear every time I enter a forum nowadays its full of bickering and bullshit, we get it people have their own minds and opinion but you only need one comment to express it. No need to prolong this thing further, let it rest.

 

[Biscardone]

If you see a femdom tag it can be anything from forceful sexual advances, to blackmail, to covert scheming (i.e femdom character toys with another characters freedom and future to get them in line) and a host of other things, most of which do not belong in femdom.

Except, in the case of Pale Carnations, there is a scene which is unequivocally femdom AND consensual (with resident amazon Veronica, in case you're curious). So, the tagging in this case is perfectly fine, and your conundrum is unsolvable: the game deserves to be tagged with femdom, irrespective of your own point of view on the matter.

People do deserve to be called out on stuff when there's no disclaimer of their intent.

And people do deserve to be called out when they are gratuitously rude to the authors because of their own unique sensibilities and their crusader complex.

Anyway, I agree, I've been adding useless fuel to the fire, so I won't comment further. But I think form IS substance, and rudeness deserves a reaction irrespective of the concept it tries to convey.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Except, in the case of Pale Carnations, there is a scene which is unequivocally femdom AND consensual (with resident amazon Veronica, in case you're curious). So, the tagging in this case is perfectly fine, and your conundrum is unsolvable: the game deserves to be tagged with femdom, irrespective of your own point of view on the matter.

I never stated that it shouldn't be tagged as femdom, and you shouldn't try to put words in my mouth. This entire time we've been discussing the scene in question that I reacted to, and the character in question, anything else is you dragging irrelevant things into it by your own volition, make no mistake about this.
Note that every other one of my posts is talking about what people think is femdom and the misconceptions behind that, especially on certain devs sides. (And no, these devs are not among those as they've already cleared up things about that scene.)

And people do deserve to be called out when they are gratuitously rude to the authors because of their own unique sensibilities and their crusader complex.

At no point is it a "crusader complex" to point out a flawed scene that doesn't function that well as either storytelling nor a representative of a kink. None of that is trying to take a moral highground and believe that it's a just cause to argue, but moreso everything to do with avoiding misinformative views of what a subject is or should be, because so many games I've come across take this exact concept and call it femdom, which is why I had to point this flaw out.
If you want another recent example that I looked into which does this exact same thing in a very similar manner would be My Best Deal. Same type of misinformed representation of what femdom is, and as I stated earlier in nearly every one of my posts, when there's no indication of intent then there's all the more reason to call it out.

Anyway, I agree, I've been adding useless fuel to the fire, so I won't comment further. But I think form IS substance, and rudeness deserves a reaction irrespective of the concept it tries to convey.

Rudeness is only experienced through subjective interpretation. Even the greatest of literary works can have instances where something is distinctly poor in how it's conveyed and anyone has a right to call out that it's something shitty, that in itself doesn't take away anything from the writer, nor does it try to infer that the entire product is the same, nor does it try to infer that someone should feel ashamed for liking it. It's a blunt statement on a specific situation and a specific character, that's it, so if you found it rude then it's likely that you either interpreted it as a personal attack on the devs or a personal attack on yourself, neither of which is the intent (which is a bit ironic since we did discuss intent quite a bit).

But yeah, this is just a dead end and will simply go in a circle forever. You do you man, to each their own, I've got no interest in typing out more paragraphs when everything I've been meaning to say or convey has already come across in my posts.

 

[UmbralKnight]

Femdom with V and MC?
softdom yes
harddom no
not at-least when you're in her route