VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[ename144]

You say that, but I will argue that it wasn't conveyed in a proper sense within the scene. The entire scene had the MC being indecisive and very uncomfortable, not wanting to have anything to do with the situation. This is atleast what information is given to us through MC's internal narration.
She then tells him that she's going to do something, which he didn't like the sound of, she tells him to whip his cock out, to which he was in disbelief but again the internal narration noted that "how else could I respond, by doing what she asked? Yeah right". If your intent was to outline MC as equally willing to participate in this scene, this feels very counterintuitive because it just isn't what the game is telling us, the player, through the internal monologue and narration.

After that you can try to refuse, the MC simply saying "I don't want to" to which she replies, "You do remember your arrangement with Charles, yes?".
After that he notes "I have to do this if I want to get paid". The player isn't given any choice at that point and the MC, again from what the narration and internal monologue is saying, isn't into it either.

The player isn't given the option to refuse because that option would result in the MC quitting the Club before the first chapter - i.e. beyond the scope of the game. Being used as a sexual prop is precisely what he signed up for. The fact that it makes him more uncomfortable than anticipated is, again, a key point of the scene: the Club isn't a fair or reasonable place by design. Trying to make the MC comfortable here with would ultimately be sending exactly the wrong message to the player, because this entire game is going to operate in the grey zone were consent is a murky issue.

Personally, I thought that was already sufficiently established before this scene, but this scene drives the point home. IMHO, if the scene is a deal breaker for you [the player], it's doing its job (or at least one of its jobs) correctly. This is almost certainly not going to be your cup of tea, so better to realize that early on.

 

[Zod666]

Finally came around to finish last update and oh boy, that last scene really brings you back to reality. I was happily ignoring all the signs, implications and blunt statements to the character of people MC is working for. Trading it for 'free pussy' so to say, but with Kathleen bringing in that new patron, going all out on Felicia and Chuck being some psycho bitch breaker. It did leave a bit of a sour aftertaste, hopefully its exaggerated for dramatic purposes and all our carnations get a happy end. Ignorance is bliss after all.

Other than that top notch update as usual. Hopefully next update brings more Kathleen scenes, those are always some of the best.

 

[GokutheG]

You say that, but I will argue that it wasn't conveyed in a proper sense within the scene. The entire scene had the MC being indecisive and very uncomfortable, not wanting to have anything to do with the situation. This is atleast what information is given to us through MC's internal narration.
She then tells him that she's going to do something, which he didn't like the sound of, she tells him to whip his cock out, to which he was in disbelief but again the internal narration noted that "how else could I respond, by doing what she asked? Yeah right". If your intent was to outline MC as equally willing to participate in this scene, this feels very counterintuitive because it just isn't what the game is telling us, the player, through the internal monologue and narration.

After that you can try to refuse, the MC simply saying "I don't want to" to which she replies, "You do remember your arrangement with Charles, yes?".
After that he notes "I have to do this if I want to get paid". The player isn't given any choice at that point and the MC, again from what the narration and internal monologue is saying, isn't into it either.

I.. I have to ask at this point, are we looking at the same scene or are you perhaps misremembering it? I am genuinely curious because what you're telling me isn't what I'm looking at right now. I redownloaded everything to double check and it's as I remember it, and last I checked, "I don't want to" isn't a yes. Unless you're Brock Turner.
Again, I am genuinely curious if we're talking about the same scene here, because I'm having difficulties seeing what you're telling me and I do want to find out where that confusion is coming from.

I was never talking about tags, only disclaimers, but fair enough if you don't feel the need to, it's not my place to tell you what to do or not to do with your game or how you develop things. As with any critique or questioning, it's up to you to decide what to do with it at all.

What I will say though is that even if we're given an adequate heads up of what the story is about (which I do agree with, the game does set the tone fairly quickly), the information as to where the MC fits into all of that is a lot more sparse, again by design for narrative drive and whatnot, but I just figured I'd point that out as there is a bit of difference between having set the tone of the game and setting the tone of where the MC actually fits into things.

I also didn't waste much time at all, as stated previously, you did put this fairly early into the game which does save a lot of time and potential frustration compared to if this scene were to happen a fair bit into the game.
I kind of enjoy poking and prodding at devs so while I do apologize for likely flooding you with posts, I do enjoy discussing the potential disconnect between someones experience and what was the intended experience (or message) to be conveyed.

Think of it this way. He thought he was just in charge to make sure the Carnations are ready for the competition only to find out he's barely a notch up on the totem pole himself and is ok with that.(I know it's really the other way this was just the best saying I could think of).

 

[Ciaran8023]

The player isn't given the option to refuse because that option would result in the MC quitting the Club before the first chapter - i.e. beyond the scope of the game. Being used as a sexual prop is precisely what he signed up for.

I mean, that's what he knows the club is about, but again there's nothing actually noting that HE would also be a sexual prop. I've gone back to check several times, at no point prior to that scene does anyone allude to him being as much as a prop without any rights as the girls.

The fact that it makes him more uncomfortable than anticipated is, again, a key point of the scene: the Club isn't a fair or reasonable place by design. Trying to make the MC comfortable here with would ultimately be sending exactly the wrong message to the player, because this entire game is going to operate in the grey zone were consent is a murky issue.

That's my point though, the MC clearly isn't alright with any of that and does not that he doesn't want to have anything to do with it, but he's forced by Kathleen and the circumstances he's in.
Also, there's no real grey zone from what I saw of the game, it's more like consent doesn't actually exist as a concept within the club or anyone involved with it, full stop. Sure, I haven't played further than that scene, but I'd be honestly VERY surprised if there is ever any form of consent within working at the club given how things were introduced.
But then again I could be wrong, I don't know and I'm not keen on even trying to find out.

Personally, I thought that was already sufficiently established before this scene, but this scene drives the point home. IMHO, if the scene is a deal breaker for you [the player], it's doing its job (or at least one of its jobs) correctly. This is almost certainly not going to be your cup of tea, so better to realize that early on.

I'd argue otherwise. It was established that women were used as props, absolutely, but again no one actually explained to him what his job would entail nor that he would also lack any rights like the girls do. Chuck said nothing, Killian said nothing, August said nothing and Kathleen said nothing aswell when the MC did ask them about it other than "oh you're just a handy man basically" which could mean a LOT of different things in an establishment that isn't legal. Essentially, everyone just yanked him around like a puppet until they were certain that he agreed to work there.

Also yes, I did realize that the game isn't for me early on, I included that in my very first post.

Think of it this way. He thought he was just in charge to make sure the Carnations are ready for the competition only to find out he's barely a notch up on the totem pole himself and is ok with that.(I know it's really the other way this was just the best saying I could think of).

I do understand that, but I don't think that he was that ok with what happened given what the scene outlined through narration and MC's internal monologue.
But yeah, he's on the same notch as the girls, arguably even less so as Kathleen strikes me as the type of antagonist to not be above dragging others into things in order to keep the MC on a tight leash, whether that is accurate or not I can't say as I did stop at that scene entirely, but that's the type of individual she strikes me as, which is also something that doesn't really factor in for the girls as they're already kept on a tight leash by their desperation.

 

[TD1900]

The player isn't given the option to refuse because that option would result in the MC quitting the Club before the first chapter - i.e. beyond the scope of the game. Being used as a sexual prop is precisely what he signed up for. The fact that it makes him more uncomfortable than anticipated is, again, a key point of the scene: the Club isn't a fair or reasonable place by design. Trying to make the MC comfortable here with would ultimately be sending exactly the wrong message to the player, because this entire game is going to operate in the grey zone were consent is a murky issue.

Pretty much, and Edwin never gets the option to outright refuse during his exhibition role either. Sometimes he can pull his punches or try to mitigate the girl's humiliation, but either way, he's right up there with them. It's just the crux of the story and the need to keep him wishy-washy until he doesn't need to be.

From a certain perspective, I have long considered that Edwin's fence-sitting might be a bit ill-conceived from a choice-driven VN perspective. Asking the reader what they would do and where they want to direct Edwin, but being locked into his tacit compliance (to varying degrees) until the climax of the story does produce a disconnect. Most people probably knew if they wanted him to get the fuck out of Dodge or become his best-worst self by the start of week 1, yet you have to watch him painfully trudge along to that conclusion.

Thankfully, people have been open to that ride.

To go back to the particular moment: in my opinion, Edwin's discomfort does not negate his consent over the situation. The horny perfume obviously muddles this somewhat, but it is not like he's robbed of his faculties or ability to leave. Ultimately, he's choosing to be complicit, just like he was when he accepted the offer in the first place. Knowing something is messed up, yet still doing it for an easy ride (not even on the pain of poverty) through medschool is not sympathy inducing. The only thing making it so would be the game being told from his perspective, with the reader right there inside Edwin's head hearing his excuses and anxieties.

That said, this is shit from the prologue. I had an entirely different perspective back then on where the project's focus would rest and almost no character had come into their own voice yet. I might have been aping Marie Mamiya too much there, and if I were to write it now, I'd probably give a bit more begrudging latitude to the player just as I have in later scenes.

 

[GokutheG]

Pretty much, and Edwin never gets the option to outright refuse during his exhibition role either. Sometimes he can pull his punches or try to mitigate the girl's humiliation, but either way, he's right up there with them. It's just the crux of the story and the need to keep him wishy-washy until he doesn't need to be.

From a certain perspective, I have long considered that Edwin's fence-sitting might be a bit ill-conceived from a choice-driven VN perspective. Asking the reader what they would do and where they want to direct Edwin, but being locked into his tacit compliance (to varying degrees) until the climax of the story does produce a disconnect. Most people probably knew if they wanted him to get the fuck out of Dodge or become his best-worst self by the start of week 1, yet you have to watch him painfully trudge along to that conclusion.

Thankfully, people have been open to that ride.

To go back to the particular moment: in my opinion, Edwin's discomfort does not negate his consent over the situation. The horny perfume obviously muddles this somewhat, but it is not like he's robbed of his faculties or ability to leave. Ultimately, he's choosing to be complicit, just like he was when he accepted the offer in the first place. Knowing something is messed up, yet still doing it for an easy ride (not even on the pain of poverty) through medschool is not sympathy inducing. The only thing making it so would be the game being told from his perspective, with the reader right there inside Edwin's head hearing his excuses and anxieties.

That said, this is shit from the prologue. I had an entirely different perspective back then on where the project's focus would rest and almost no character had come into their own voice yet. I might have been aping Marie Mamiya too much there, and if I were to write it now, I'd probably give a bit more begrudging latitude to the player just as I have in later scenes.

Plus it helps that the mc seems to genuinely want to help the Carnations so his wishy washy nature is understandable. He's someone who wants to be a good person even if it means not fully indulging his darker desires.

 

[ename144]

I mean, that's what he knows the club is about, but again there's nothing actually noting that HE would also be a sexual prop. I've gone back to check several times, at no point prior to that scene does anyone allude to him being as much as a prop without any rights as the girls.

If you don't mind my asking, what DID you think the MC would be in for? As you say, it was clear the girls were in for a rough time, did you think the MC would somehow be a party to that while having his every sensibility catered to?

We know the place is a sex club, and Kathleen wasn't exactly discreet when checking out the MC when they first met. The fact that no one would give any specifics on the MC's actual duties felt like a huge red flag to me: that was the same trick they pulled to get him in the door, right? To me, it seemed pretty obvious the MC would be called on to do at least a few distasteful things sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

But even beyond those details, the MC's extended ruminations on whether he was a "good" person made the issue inevitable in my eyes. We knew for a fact the girls were going to be exploited thanks to their desperate circumstances, and the MC was willing to rationalize that away to secure his future. Suddenly, the MC finds himself facing a similar situation: he really wants that tuition money, but now he needs to whip his dick out to get it. Curious coincidence, no? What you see as an uncool ambush by the writer, I see as a clear warning sign: this is what it feels like to be exploited, so bear that in mind as we proceed.

 

[GokutheG]

If you don't mind my asking, what DID you think the MC would be in for? As you say, it was clear the girls were in for a rough time, did you think the MC would somehow be a party to that while having his every sensibility catered to?

We know the place is a sex club, and Kathleen wasn't exactly discreet when checking out the MC when they first met. The fact that no one would give any specifics on the MC's actual duties felt like a huge red flag to me: that was the same trick they pulled to get him in the door, right? To me, it seemed pretty obvious the MC would be called on to do at least a few things distasteful things sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

But even beyond those details, the MC's extended ruminations on whether he was a "good" person made the issue inevitable in my eyes. We knew for a fact the girls were going to be exploited thanks to their desperate circumstances, and the MC was willing to rationalize that away to secure his future. Suddenly, the MC finds himself facing a similar situation: he really wants that tuition money, but now he needs to whip his dick out to get it. Curious coincidence, no? What you see as an uncool ambush by the writer, I see as a clear warning sign: this is what it feels like to be exploited, so bear that in mind as we proceed.

That's a point I never really thought about. That scene is meant to make not only the mc but possibly the player also be uncomfortable to let us know how the Carnations will be feeling during the events and sympathize.

 

[Dr. Mick]

If you don't mind my asking, what DID you think the MC would be in for? As you say, it was clear the girls were in for a rough time, did you think the MC would somehow be a party to that while having his every sensibility catered to?

We know the place is a sex club, and Kathleen wasn't exactly discreet when checking out the MC when they first met. The fact that no one would give any specifics on the MC's actual duties felt like a huge red flag to me: that was the same trick they pulled to get him in the door, right? To me, it seemed pretty obvious the MC would be called on to do at least a few distasteful things sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

But even beyond those details, the MC's extended ruminations on whether he was a "good" person made the issue inevitable in my eyes. We knew for a fact the girls were going to be exploited thanks to their desperate circumstances, and the MC was willing to rationalize that away to secure his future. Suddenly, the MC finds himself facing a similar situation: he really wants that tuition money, but now he needs to whip his dick out to get it. Curious coincidence, no? What you see as an uncool ambush by the writer, I see as a clear warning sign: this is what it feels like to be exploited, so bear that in mind as we proceed.

Exactly. After going through all that, and watching as the ladies are all abused as well, it will make the eventual takedown of Kat and Chuck that much sweeter.
Go through all these uncomfortable situations with depraved sadists, sympathize with how it feels to be on the receiving end, and then enjoy their comeuppance later on.

 

[Fapparition]

it will make the eventual takedown of Kat and Chuck that much sweeter.

Oh, you're sure that it will happen? Knowing that the AVN isn't exactly a fairytale where "good always defeats evil" I wouldn't put my money on that outcome. Chuck and Kat, and August for that matter, successfully kept getting away with all the stuff they were doing all their long lives, so why it will be different now?

 

[DarkLords00]

Pretty much, and Edwin never gets the option to outright refuse during his exhibition role either. Sometimes he can pull his punches or try to mitigate the girl's humiliation, but either way, he's right up there with them. It's just the crux of the story and the need to keep him wishy-washy until he doesn't need to be.

From a certain perspective, I have long considered that Edwin's fence-sitting might be a bit ill-conceived from a choice-driven VN perspective. Asking the reader what they would do and where they want to direct Edwin, but being locked into his tacit compliance (to varying degrees) until the climax of the story does produce a disconnect. Most people probably knew if they wanted him to get the fuck out of Dodge or become his best-worst self by the start of week 1, yet you have to watch him painfully trudge along to that conclusion.

Thankfully, people have been open to that ride.

Well, I can only speak for my own experience with the story but, to me, it always felt like the main purpose of scenes like these where about how the player shapes Edwin's character evolution since it comes in contact with the club.
In said scene there is an option to agree immediatly and Edwin whips his junk without much if any at all restraint but if the player chooses not to do it, it can be said that Edwin is trying to refuse more out of politeness/akwardness than just outright denying the idea.

And the game is filled with scenes like these ones, in AND out of the club.

-Do you try to confront your best friend behaviour when he confesses to manipulate his girlfriend jealousy just to get more personal gratification in the bedroom or do you question it/chastise him for it?

- Do you waste an oportunity for personal sexual gratification with a "helpless" woman(the first meeting with Rosalind) or just accept her request without abusing your position ?

- Do you forsake societal norms , manners and common decency to indulge yourself in a sexual act with your best friend and his girlfriends friend(Felicia) or do you choose not to do it?

It's funny, the intro and the game presents itself as a story of corruption, but to me it's more a story about the possibilty of redemption. Edwin is not introduced as someone right in the head from the get go, and starts the game wondering if he is truly a decent person and considering he watches his videos of his mother getting railed with alarming frequency just to influence his character and behaviour. His journey (at least my interpretation of it) regardless if he stays in the club or not, is about answering the question he asks himself at the end of the prologue and I've never felt that the story derails at any point, when it comes to that.

 

[Ciaran8023]

If you don't mind my asking, what DID you think the MC would be in for? As you say, it was clear the girls were in for a rough time, did you think the MC would somehow be a party to that while having his every sensibility catered to?

I had nothing to base it on, but what I did initially guess as there have been plenty of games doing a very similar concept, was something along the lines of people in the background (people like Kathleen or August) having an ulterior motive for the MC to be there and as such would do what they can to manipulate or direct the MC to their whims. What I also imagined is that you would start out as a literal aide, doing random shit while the facade of a "brothel" was being maintained before you start getting more inklings as to things not being right and from there either pivoting as a saving grace for those affected or leaning into the debauchery.

That's generally the most basic theme that all of these games follow, so that's what I was initially expecting.

We know the place is a sex club, and Kathleen wasn't exactly discreet when checking out the MC when they first met. The fact that no one would give any specifics on the MC's actual duties felt like a huge red flag to me: that was the same trick they pulled to get him in the door, right? To me, it seemed pretty obvious the MC would be called on to do at least a few distasteful things sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

Of course, them not divulging his duties IS a red flag and is generally a common tactic when trying to manipulate someone, which was generally in line with what I expected, where it diverted from the average corruption/illegal club type games was the point where you realized that you're more expendable than the girls and have less rights (after all it ain't too difficult to find a dude wanting to do this shit, but it's harder to find a woman in a situation like that which they require). I think everyone knew that the MC would have to do something distasteful or end up in a distasteful situation, but I expected it to be much later as I was expecting a far more common story.

But even beyond those details, the MC's extended ruminations on whether he was a "good" person made the issue inevitable in my eyes. We knew for a fact the girls were going to be exploited thanks to their desperate circumstances, and the MC was willing to rationalize that away to secure his future. Suddenly, the MC finds himself facing a similar situation: he really wants that tuition money, but now he needs to whip his dick out to get it. Curious coincidence, no? What you see as an uncool ambush by the writer, I see as a clear warning sign: this is what it feels like to be exploited, so bear that in mind as we proceed.

I never said it was an uncool ambush by the writer, I despised the way the scene was constructed as, and this is something I've iterated in every post now, I had no way of knowing if the devs idea of "femdom" was that scene or not, since I've come across many games that DO try to pass off femdom as forced sexual assault. That's what I took issue with.

Also, MC's circumstances are pretty different given that it was basically railroaded by Chucklefuck and his idiot of a nephew (was it nephew? I think so), the girls are literally cornered animals and the MC isn't to the same extent, so I don't think it was the devs idea of going "here, this is what it's like" and moreso "here, this is the game, enjoy dancing like a puppet". Again, to each their own, in fact I'd probably even like that premise if it wasn't for the existence of Kathleen and that one scene.

 

[Dr. Mick]

Oh, you're sure that it will happen? Knowing that the AVN isn't exactly a fairytale where "good always defeats evil" I wouldn't put my money on that outcome. Chuck and Kat, and August for that matter, successfully kept getting away with all the stuff they were doing all their long lives, so why it will be different now?

It's simple. Taking them down is the only thing I have to look forward to after what they've done. It's quite literally why I'm still reading. So I have to believe that we'll be able to triumph, save the abused and oppressed, and have some semblance of a happy ending.
Otherwise what everyone has had to endure is pointless.