VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[GokutheG]

Pretty much, and Edwin never gets the option to outright refuse during his exhibition role either. Sometimes he can pull his punches or try to mitigate the girl's humiliation, but either way, he's right up there with them. It's just the crux of the story and the need to keep him wishy-washy until he doesn't need to be.

From a certain perspective, I have long considered that Edwin's fence-sitting might be a bit ill-conceived from a choice-driven VN perspective. Asking the reader what they would do and where they want to direct Edwin, but being locked into his tacit compliance (to varying degrees) until the climax of the story does produce a disconnect. Most people probably knew if they wanted him to get the fuck out of Dodge or become his best-worst self by the start of week 1, yet you have to watch him painfully trudge along to that conclusion.

Thankfully, people have been open to that ride.

To go back to the particular moment: in my opinion, Edwin's discomfort does not negate his consent over the situation. The horny perfume obviously muddles this somewhat, but it is not like he's robbed of his faculties or ability to leave. Ultimately, he's choosing to be complicit, just like he was when he accepted the offer in the first place. Knowing something is messed up, yet still doing it for an easy ride (not even on the pain of poverty) through medschool is not sympathy inducing. The only thing making it so would be the game being told from his perspective, with the reader right there inside Edwin's head hearing his excuses and anxieties.

That said, this is shit from the prologue. I had an entirely different perspective back then on where the project's focus would rest and almost no character had come into their own voice yet. I might have been aping Marie Mamiya too much there, and if I were to write it now, I'd probably give a bit more begrudging latitude to the player just as I have in later scenes.

Plus it helps that the mc seems to genuinely want to help the Carnations so his wishy washy nature is understandable. He's someone who wants to be a good person even if it means not fully indulging his darker desires.

 

[ename144]

I mean, that's what he knows the club is about, but again there's nothing actually noting that HE would also be a sexual prop. I've gone back to check several times, at no point prior to that scene does anyone allude to him being as much as a prop without any rights as the girls.

If you don't mind my asking, what DID you think the MC would be in for? As you say, it was clear the girls were in for a rough time, did you think the MC would somehow be a party to that while having his every sensibility catered to?

We know the place is a sex club, and Kathleen wasn't exactly discreet when checking out the MC when they first met. The fact that no one would give any specifics on the MC's actual duties felt like a huge red flag to me: that was the same trick they pulled to get him in the door, right? To me, it seemed pretty obvious the MC would be called on to do at least a few distasteful things sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

But even beyond those details, the MC's extended ruminations on whether he was a "good" person made the issue inevitable in my eyes. We knew for a fact the girls were going to be exploited thanks to their desperate circumstances, and the MC was willing to rationalize that away to secure his future. Suddenly, the MC finds himself facing a similar situation: he really wants that tuition money, but now he needs to whip his dick out to get it. Curious coincidence, no? What you see as an uncool ambush by the writer, I see as a clear warning sign: this is what it feels like to be exploited, so bear that in mind as we proceed.

 

[GokutheG]

If you don't mind my asking, what DID you think the MC would be in for? As you say, it was clear the girls were in for a rough time, did you think the MC would somehow be a party to that while having his every sensibility catered to?

We know the place is a sex club, and Kathleen wasn't exactly discreet when checking out the MC when they first met. The fact that no one would give any specifics on the MC's actual duties felt like a huge red flag to me: that was the same trick they pulled to get him in the door, right? To me, it seemed pretty obvious the MC would be called on to do at least a few things distasteful things sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

But even beyond those details, the MC's extended ruminations on whether he was a "good" person made the issue inevitable in my eyes. We knew for a fact the girls were going to be exploited thanks to their desperate circumstances, and the MC was willing to rationalize that away to secure his future. Suddenly, the MC finds himself facing a similar situation: he really wants that tuition money, but now he needs to whip his dick out to get it. Curious coincidence, no? What you see as an uncool ambush by the writer, I see as a clear warning sign: this is what it feels like to be exploited, so bear that in mind as we proceed.

That's a point I never really thought about. That scene is meant to make not only the mc but possibly the player also be uncomfortable to let us know how the Carnations will be feeling during the events and sympathize.

 

[Dr. Mick]

If you don't mind my asking, what DID you think the MC would be in for? As you say, it was clear the girls were in for a rough time, did you think the MC would somehow be a party to that while having his every sensibility catered to?

We know the place is a sex club, and Kathleen wasn't exactly discreet when checking out the MC when they first met. The fact that no one would give any specifics on the MC's actual duties felt like a huge red flag to me: that was the same trick they pulled to get him in the door, right? To me, it seemed pretty obvious the MC would be called on to do at least a few distasteful things sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

But even beyond those details, the MC's extended ruminations on whether he was a "good" person made the issue inevitable in my eyes. We knew for a fact the girls were going to be exploited thanks to their desperate circumstances, and the MC was willing to rationalize that away to secure his future. Suddenly, the MC finds himself facing a similar situation: he really wants that tuition money, but now he needs to whip his dick out to get it. Curious coincidence, no? What you see as an uncool ambush by the writer, I see as a clear warning sign: this is what it feels like to be exploited, so bear that in mind as we proceed.

Exactly. After going through all that, and watching as the ladies are all abused as well, it will make the eventual takedown of Kat and Chuck that much sweeter.
Go through all these uncomfortable situations with depraved sadists, sympathize with how it feels to be on the receiving end, and then enjoy their comeuppance later on.

 

[Fapparition]

it will make the eventual takedown of Kat and Chuck that much sweeter.

Oh, you're sure that it will happen? Knowing that the AVN isn't exactly a fairytale where "good always defeats evil" I wouldn't put my money on that outcome. Chuck and Kat, and August for that matter, successfully kept getting away with all the stuff they were doing all their long lives, so why it will be different now?

 

[DarkLords00]

Pretty much, and Edwin never gets the option to outright refuse during his exhibition role either. Sometimes he can pull his punches or try to mitigate the girl's humiliation, but either way, he's right up there with them. It's just the crux of the story and the need to keep him wishy-washy until he doesn't need to be.

From a certain perspective, I have long considered that Edwin's fence-sitting might be a bit ill-conceived from a choice-driven VN perspective. Asking the reader what they would do and where they want to direct Edwin, but being locked into his tacit compliance (to varying degrees) until the climax of the story does produce a disconnect. Most people probably knew if they wanted him to get the fuck out of Dodge or become his best-worst self by the start of week 1, yet you have to watch him painfully trudge along to that conclusion.

Thankfully, people have been open to that ride.

Well, I can only speak for my own experience with the story but, to me, it always felt like the main purpose of scenes like these where about how the player shapes Edwin's character evolution since it comes in contact with the club.
In said scene there is an option to agree immediatly and Edwin whips his junk without much if any at all restraint but if the player chooses not to do it, it can be said that Edwin is trying to refuse more out of politeness/akwardness than just outright denying the idea.

And the game is filled with scenes like these ones, in AND out of the club.

-Do you try to confront your best friend behaviour when he confesses to manipulate his girlfriend jealousy just to get more personal gratification in the bedroom or do you question it/chastise him for it?

- Do you waste an oportunity for personal sexual gratification with a "helpless" woman(the first meeting with Rosalind) or just accept her request without abusing your position ?

- Do you forsake societal norms , manners and common decency to indulge yourself in a sexual act with your best friend and his girlfriends friend(Felicia) or do you choose not to do it?

It's funny, the intro and the game presents itself as a story of corruption, but to me it's more a story about the possibilty of redemption. Edwin is not introduced as someone right in the head from the get go, and starts the game wondering if he is truly a decent person and considering he watches his videos of his mother getting railed with alarming frequency just to influence his character and behaviour. His journey (at least my interpretation of it) regardless if he stays in the club or not, is about answering the question he asks himself at the end of the prologue and I've never felt that the story derails at any point, when it comes to that.

 

[Ciaran8023]

If you don't mind my asking, what DID you think the MC would be in for? As you say, it was clear the girls were in for a rough time, did you think the MC would somehow be a party to that while having his every sensibility catered to?

I had nothing to base it on, but what I did initially guess as there have been plenty of games doing a very similar concept, was something along the lines of people in the background (people like Kathleen or August) having an ulterior motive for the MC to be there and as such would do what they can to manipulate or direct the MC to their whims. What I also imagined is that you would start out as a literal aide, doing random shit while the facade of a "brothel" was being maintained before you start getting more inklings as to things not being right and from there either pivoting as a saving grace for those affected or leaning into the debauchery.

That's generally the most basic theme that all of these games follow, so that's what I was initially expecting.

We know the place is a sex club, and Kathleen wasn't exactly discreet when checking out the MC when they first met. The fact that no one would give any specifics on the MC's actual duties felt like a huge red flag to me: that was the same trick they pulled to get him in the door, right? To me, it seemed pretty obvious the MC would be called on to do at least a few distasteful things sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

Of course, them not divulging his duties IS a red flag and is generally a common tactic when trying to manipulate someone, which was generally in line with what I expected, where it diverted from the average corruption/illegal club type games was the point where you realized that you're more expendable than the girls and have less rights (after all it ain't too difficult to find a dude wanting to do this shit, but it's harder to find a woman in a situation like that which they require). I think everyone knew that the MC would have to do something distasteful or end up in a distasteful situation, but I expected it to be much later as I was expecting a far more common story.

But even beyond those details, the MC's extended ruminations on whether he was a "good" person made the issue inevitable in my eyes. We knew for a fact the girls were going to be exploited thanks to their desperate circumstances, and the MC was willing to rationalize that away to secure his future. Suddenly, the MC finds himself facing a similar situation: he really wants that tuition money, but now he needs to whip his dick out to get it. Curious coincidence, no? What you see as an uncool ambush by the writer, I see as a clear warning sign: this is what it feels like to be exploited, so bear that in mind as we proceed.

I never said it was an uncool ambush by the writer, I despised the way the scene was constructed as, and this is something I've iterated in every post now, I had no way of knowing if the devs idea of "femdom" was that scene or not, since I've come across many games that DO try to pass off femdom as forced sexual assault. That's what I took issue with.

Also, MC's circumstances are pretty different given that it was basically railroaded by Chucklefuck and his idiot of a nephew (was it nephew? I think so), the girls are literally cornered animals and the MC isn't to the same extent, so I don't think it was the devs idea of going "here, this is what it's like" and moreso "here, this is the game, enjoy dancing like a puppet". Again, to each their own, in fact I'd probably even like that premise if it wasn't for the existence of Kathleen and that one scene.

 

[Dr. Mick]

Oh, you're sure that it will happen? Knowing that the AVN isn't exactly a fairytale where "good always defeats evil" I wouldn't put my money on that outcome. Chuck and Kat, and August for that matter, successfully kept getting away with all the stuff they were doing all their long lives, so why it will be different now?

It's simple. Taking them down is the only thing I have to look forward to after what they've done. It's quite literally why I'm still reading. So I have to believe that we'll be able to triumph, save the abused and oppressed, and have some semblance of a happy ending.
Otherwise what everyone has had to endure is pointless.

 

[Simpgor]

Oh, you're sure that it will happen? Knowing that the AVN isn't exactly a fairytale where "good always defeats evil" I wouldn't put my money on that outcome. Chuck and Kat, and August for that matter, successfully kept getting away with all the stuff they were doing all their long lives, so why it will be different now?

August is already "defeating himself" by having Hana slowly take over his position, Kathleen says (to edwin) she's betting alot on the next moves she's planning, and as for Chuck..... uh..... Ian is maybe a bit more self reflective now?

Also the usual protagonist privilege of being involved with all of them: as a new toy/protege for Kathleen, dating/fucking/being friends with? Hana for August, and being "family" to Chuck/potentially very close to Ian

Edit: Also Endings have long been confirmed to have range in them it would be weird for that range to be [within the bounds of 3 borderline senior citizens still winning]

 

[Ass prefer]

Why are you writing so early in the morning? I haven't woken up at 7 a.m. in a long time....

 

[GokutheG]

It's simple. Taking them down is the only thing I have to look forward to after what they've done. It's quite literally why I'm still reading. So I have to believe that we'll be able to triumph, save the abused and oppressed, and have some semblance of a happy ending.
Otherwise what everyone has had to endure is pointless.

I'm thinking that the mc will be able to turn Chuck and August against Kat once whatever she's plotting comes to light. I'm not sure about Chuck and August. August seems like as long as his daughter is happy he'd be happy stepping back and letting her run the buisness. I think Chuck would gift his shares to the mc if Ian hasn't gotten his act together. I think they could reform the club. I have a harder time thinking of a reason of how/why to really take down A/C. I can't really think of any leverage because it seems Chuck has the cops in his pockets. Unless he steps down to protect his family that would fit. August may also have to worry about his gang but Chuck's cop connections and profitable club seems to make them a non factor. Unless they go after Hana to get to him.

 

[MAGO-DAG]

Why are you writing so early in the morning? I haven't woken up at 7 a.m. in a long time....

Probably because everyone has different times?

 

[Dr. Mick]

I'm thinking that the mc will be able to turn Chuck and August against Kat once whatever she's plotting comes to light. I'm not sure about Chuck and August. August seems like as long as his daughter is happy he'd be happy stepping back and letting her run the buisness. I think Chuck would gift his shares to the mc if Ian hasn't gotten his act together. I think they could reform the club. I have a harder time thinking of a reason of how/why to really take down A/C. I can't really think of any leverage because it seems Chuck has the cops in his pockets. Unless he steps down to protect his family that would fit. August may also have to worry about his gang but Chuck's cop connections and profitable club seems to make them a non factor. Unless they go after Hana to get to him.

From what we've seen, Chuck is just as sadistic as Kat, with even less empathy, and potentially more violent considering the disappearances that are suspected to be attributed to him, and his relentless pursuit of the science assistant. Have to find proof of his misdeeds to use as leverage and/or probable cause, or find a way to make him slipup.

 

[Simpgor]

From what we've seen, Chuck is just as sadistic as Kat, with even less empathy, and potentially more violent considering the disappearances that are suspected to be attributed to him, and his relentless pursuit of the science assistant. Have to find proof of his misdeeds to use as leverage and/or probable cause, or find a way to make him slipup.

In my opinion a key difference is unlike kat he can get "something" from people he cares about (Ian/Edwin) indulging in a way he couldn't in his youth. For Kathleen it's not enough to know people are suffering because of her orders she wants to be in the room to see it (Edwin's Present). That being said i agree that if the MC wasn't Edwin/Ian Chuck would be a much bigger (imo the biggest) obstacle

 

[helo138]

Exactly. After going through all that, and watching as the ladies are all abused as well, it will make the eventual takedown of Kat and Chuck that much sweeter.
Go through all these uncomfortable situations with depraved sadists, sympathize with how it feels to be on the receiving end, and then enjoy their comeuppance later on.

100% this. Too many VNs with potential story lines like this skip on the first part even though it makes revenge 100-times sweeter and more inpactful later. I am really looking forward to dominating Kathleen on Edwins terms at some point, although I can understand that some people just want to put her in jail or worse. However, she is just too hot for that in my opinion and we are still reading an adult visuel novel, so...

 

[Dr. Mick]

100% this. Too many VNs with potential story lines like this skip on the first part even though it makes revenge 100-times sweeter and more inpactful later. I am really looking forward to dominating Kathleen on Edwins terms at some point, although I can understand that some people just want to put her in jail or worse. However, she is just too hot for that in my opinion and we are still reading an adult visuel novel, so...

I would, but from what I've heard about Kat's offered "gift" I'd be afraid of Edwin sinking to her level. So I'll settle for seeing her incarcerated, or exiled, or paraded through the streets naked while a nun walks behind her ringing a bell and yelling "Shame!".

 

[helo138]

I would, but from what I've heard about Kat's offered "gift" I'd be afraid of Edwin sinking to her level. So I'll settle for seeing her incarcerated, or exiled, or paraded through the streets naked while a nun walks behind her ringing a bell and yelling "Shame!".

Parading her in front of the club would work for me, I guess.

 

[cm383744992]

Probably because everyone has different times?

can you tell me ,what is the name of game frome your second signature gif

 

[GokutheG]

I would, but from what I've heard about Kat's offered "gift" I'd be afraid of Edwin sinking to her level. So I'll settle for seeing her incarcerated, or exiled, or paraded through the streets naked while a nun walks behind her ringing a bell and yelling "Shame!".

It seems that K tries so hard to be seen as an equal to the clients that I'm starting to think that turning her into a permanent Carnation might be a fate worse than jail for her ego. It could be seen as some sort of poetic justice. She used her sister's charity to turn desperate women into Carnations for her own sick amusement just to end up there herself.

 

[Dr. Mick]

It seems that K tries so hard to be seen as an equal to the clients that I'm starting to think that turning her into a permanent Carnation might be a fate worse than jail for her ego. It could be seen as some sort of poetic justice. She used her sister's charity to turn desperate women into Carnations for her own sick amusement just to end up there herself.

Fitting end.
Once Edwin and Hana take over, they reshape the club how they see fit. They can keep the brothel side going, but make it optional, rather than a punishment. While the club has a new bottom piglet, aka Kat.
Can even still have exhibition show, with the significant difference of getting consent from any of the carnations that remain, and those who join.