VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Heisenberg867]

I agree. I’m approaching this game as someone still a little traumatized by what mc’s mother allowed to happen for the sake of her son, for a better life, and is someone who is still sees himself as a good person who’s made bad decisions in the past but has his future planned out and is seeing his job at the club as nothing more than a means to an end.

That said, he’s still very much sympathetic to the ladies participating in the carnation event, and unlike Kathleen (who sadly I was attracted to until her sadistic nature revealed itself) he actually still has a soul and is still trying to be himself without letting all temptation completely corrupt him.

By contrast, I'm playing as someone who resents his mother for degrading herself, and has a certain contempt for anybody who would respond to adversity by allowing themselves to be degraded for profit. MC has trained himself to say all the right things in order be part of polite society, but the more time he spends at the club, the more he allows his true feelings to show through. Consequently, to me the Carnations are all fundamentally "fair game" for unsympathetic abuse. Kathleen represents a cross between a mentor and a rival.

 

[Heisenberg867]

mmm I don't think it's that black and white. Even if you want to play as the "virtuous" MC, you can still empathize with Ian and see that you could easily fall down the path that he took and, instead of abandoning your childhood friend, you could work on helping him become a little less "evil."

That being said, I'm not fully sold on Ian even being that evil; he's just a young douchebag who views most women as sexual objects. While that isn't how you should view them, and he definitely does some morally bad things, he isn't evil. He's just young and stupid.

Maybe! To me, the club is appallingly predatory (which for whatever reason turns me on), and everyone who's enthusiastically involved with it has to varying degrees already sold their soul to the devil. Combined with Ian's calculatingly abusive treatment of his girlfriend (flirting with other women to emotionally torment and manipulate her), I'd say "evil" is a fair description of him, although sure, I can see why you'd think he's not beyond salvation.

But if Ian doesn't want to be reformed (and why would he?), then I do think if you're role-playing as a good character, at a certain point you're almost morally obliged to develop an adversarial relationship with him.

 

[Walnutt]

This Killian Discussion is getting ridiculous at this point and toxic too everyone has their own ways on how they look at characters we shouldn't discuss them too deeply or else we will be ruining the game for ourselves.

I-
I don't see it getting toxic at all lmao. We're just giving our personal opinions on how we view the character. And one of the points of this thread is to discuss the characters in depth lol. The fact that we're having this discussion says a lot about how well the devs write this game. You don't have in-depth discussions about characters who are two dimensional

 

[Ninro]

what a game man, short update but high quality, absolutely love the boss and her kind of domination relationship with the mc

 

[quorkboy]

But the point, narratively, is that this game is attempting to serve two audiences: those who want to unleash their inner devil when they play, and those (with respect) who have moral qualms about playing a male dom game and want to tell themselves that they're not bad people for partaking in what is objectively a horribly immoral exercise (making money from and assisting with the degradation of vulnerable women).

I can see a point of view that says "the MC is doing what he can to help the women, who will be used and abused whether he's there or not, but at least if he is he can try make it easier on them."

I'm making some assumptions here, since in my path the MC has taken great pleasure in using the Carnations and has no intention of helping any of them (though he may say he will in order to have fun with them outside the games.) My assumption is based on what TD1900 has said about it being possible to, not exactly save any of them from the games, but make it less harsh for one of them.

You can view this as justification for acting out desires that the player doesn't want to admit, and this is a possibility, but I think it's more complex than that. This can be legitimately seen as a "good guy" path. While there might be a better choice in real life, the game doesn't allow for the option where, e.g., you leave the club and expose the people who have manipulated the women into taking part in these sadistic games.

P.S. Most games serve two audiences. See for a close analogy Estate: Dominate, where you can be a decent person who does his best to ensure that the other victims of the Sterns are protected and treated well, or you can be someone who's morally indistinguishable from your adversaries, playing the same games with both them and with their other victims whenever your available leverage gives you the opportunity. Neither is wrong, it's just about where your head is at in terms of what you enjoy.

P.P.S. When I was younger I was more conflicted about what I enjoy, but now that I've realized that as long as I treat real people with love, I can approach fictional situations with maximum heartlessness and savagery, I eschew the "I'm just a nice guy who's basically forced, forced, I tell you, to participate in this thing that secretly thrills me" paths that these games offer.

What you say about separating fantasy from reality is 100% true. I long ago accepted that, while some would judge me, their judgement is unjustified and I should not judge myself, for enjoying taking the darker path in these games (which I am doing in Estate: Dominate also.)

In the sense these are games, fictional universes, neither approach is wrong on a real world level, because you're not actually doing any of those things. In game, however, the crueler path is wrong. And the discussion here, as I see it, is primarily in context of the game world, not the real world in which we're players of a fantasy game.

It's weird reading this thread and seeing people say things like "MC is a better person than Ian" when in fact my MC has been an absolutely ruthless bastard to basically every woman he's come across.

Indeed. My MC has lied to Rosalind about his intention to help her and is (al)most definitely planning on taking Mina and using her much the way Killian does, except worse, if the game allows. And I practically salivated when Kathleen was allowing me to help humiliate Lucy in the scene with her and Veronica in the office. I can't really take advantage of Felicia because she gets off on letting me use her. But I am taking every opportunity to do so.

If you want be virtuous, then Ian is an enemy, which is why the "good path" is the one that gives you the opportunity to seduce Mina away from him.

I truly hope this is not the case and I have the opportunity to seduce her on the "bad path". I've not played the latest (doing that on the weekend) so if this is something that is revealed in the update I'll find out soon enough. But I hope it's just speculation on your part.

 

[quorkboy]

If being toxic is having a reasoned discussion between people who are relentlessly civil toward one another, then I'll take it.

Anyone who doesn't want to see this discussion is free to place us on ignore. For myself, far from ruining the game for me, it makes it even more interesting.

 

[Spfjolietjake]

I have enjoyed this debate and even the opposing thoughts. If I offended anyone that was not my intent. Just throwing my two cents as well.

 

[Crimsonfiend76]

But if Ian doesn't want to be reformed (and why would he?), then I do think if you're role-playing as a good character, at a certain point you're almost morally obliged to develop an adversarial relationship with him.

With regards to Kathleen, typically she right in my wheelhouse since I tend to prefer milfs/older women and with those glasses, she’s smoking hot. When first introduced to her character I knew I had to pursue her romantically but the more I get to know her, I’m not sure she can be redeemed or even wants to. My other ‘type’ are redheads so I was conflicted about Veronica since I love that Amazonian goddess, but her abrasive personality and general preference in lovers seems to make it quite the challenge to pursue her romantically.

As far as Ian goes, I agree that he doesn’t want to be ‘fixed’ or redeemed. He’s quite happy with his life, but I don’t think the mc’s interaction with him needs to be black or white. He’s still a very loyal (sadly more to the mc than Mina) friend and outside of his Achilles heel, is a good guy not trying to go out of his way to hurt people. As I am playing a ‘good guy’ but not perfect, I can still be friends with him, but not be 100% on board with everything he does or is into.

Considering how open minded he is when it comes to the ladies, not to mention wanting to share Mina with the mc ( to a certain degree when drinking and hanging out) along with all the other ladies, I don’t think we have to be adversaries. If anything, once the mc and Mina get close enough, she may be closer to leaving him, at which point I’m optimistic he realizes what’s best for her and let’s her go. If anything, his best friend together with his ex, would ‘nt be the end of the world, and he’s free to continue being the womanizer he’s always been, and maybe just not quite ready to settle down.

 

[Walnutt]

With regards to Kathleen, typically she right in my wheelhouse since I tend to prefer milfs/older women and with those glasses, she’s smoking hot. When first introduced to her character I knew I had to pursue her romantically but the more I get to know her, I’m not sure she can be redeemed or even wants to. My other ‘type’ are redheads so I was conflicted about Veronica since I love that Amazonian goddess, but her abrasive personality and general preference in lovers seems to make it quite the challenge to pursue her romantically.

As far as Ian goes, I agree that he doesn’t want to be ‘fixed’ or redeemed. He’s quite happy with his life, but I don’t think the mc’s interaction with him needs to be black or white. He’s still a very loyal (sadly more to the mc than Mina) friend and outside of his Achilles heel, is a good guy not trying to go out of his way to hurt people. As I am playing a ‘good guy’ but not perfect, I can still be friends with him, but not be 100% on board with everything he does or is into.

Considering how open minded he is when it comes to the ladies, not to mention wanting to share Mina with the mc ( to a certain degree when drinking and hanging out) along with all the other ladies, I don’t think we have to be adversaries. If anything, once the mc and Mina get close enough, she may be closer to leaving him, at which point I’m optimistic he realizes what’s best for her and let’s her go. If anything, his best friend together with his ex, would ‘nt be the end of the world, and he’s free to continue being the womanizer he’s always been, and maybe just not quite ready to settle down.

So since Kathleen and Veronica are kinda out of your sight, are you mainly focusing on the Mina route now? Don't forget to give love to my girl Hana

 

[Crimsonfiend76]

So since Kathleen and Veronica are kinda out of your sight, are you mainly focusing on the Mina route now? Don't forget to give love to my girl Hana

Are you kidding? I’m committed to Mina and Hana endgame. Hana seems slightly like a friend with benefits, but during the birthday get together she surprised me saying she could see herself in a serious relationship, whereas Mina was a little more hesitant to that idea, but I’m guessing that’s due to her bad experience in her current relationship.

Mina seems perfect for the mc personality wise, and genuinely is someone I can see him with long term and potentially even marry once he graduates from med school. Since I don’t have to pick one or the other right now, I will continue getting closer to both and just see which one is THE ONE.

 

[Heisenberg867]

I can see a point of view that says "the MC is doing what he can to help the women, who will be used and abused whether he's there or not, but at least if he is he can try make it easier on them."

...

Great comment.

To me, the virtuous thing to do would be (as you said) go to the police and/or newspapers and shut the whole thing down. No way does that operation survive "sunlight", especially stuff like Kathleen using a women's charity is a pipeline for fresh victims. To me, everyone involved who's doing it for the money while making virtuous noises is just lying to themselves about their moral culpability, including Hana.

Which then gets into a bit of a metagaming question. Did you ever play Spec Ops: The Line? IIRC there's a scene where in order to succeed on a certain mission you need to choose to use white phosphorus on the enemy. If you don't, the scenario is unwinnable, you'll be overwhelmed, game over. It provoked a very passionate debate about whether you're "forced" to use the WP. In a sense, yes, if you want MC to succeed with his mission, but it's not like MC has to succeed. Same thing here, I think. By choosing for MC to participate, even reluctantly and with as much generosity as possible toward the victims, MC is making a deal with the devil no matter what you tell yourself.

As for playing a dark path in a game like this, personally I see it as no different than playing a non-erotic video game where you're a bad guy (e.g. Hitman) or watching a movie featuring bad guys as protagonists, like Ocean's 11. Ironically I tend to play the good guy in non-erotic video games and I find that most satisfying. Kink is weird - it has no relation to the rest of your personality. I think the world gets that wrong a lot. Like, assuming that someone who's turned on by submitting is on some level a submissive person outside the bedroom. Nah, outside the bedroom they might be anywhere on the spectrum of human personality.

As for seducing Mina, I'm kind of torn. I like seeing the scenes, but in terms of roleplaying I much prefer to have strong bonds with other males in these games, like with Mr. Kasabian in Milfy City. At some point I'll probably do an anti-Killian playthrough and snag Mina from him, but in my "main" game, I've decided that since the only reason I'm having this Carnation opportunity is my friendship with Ian, I owe it to him to have his back, even if he is a bit of a lightweight human being.

My personal hope is that I'll be able to get Hana under my thumb during my evil playthrough. She triggers that thing that Kathleen talked about - the sweetest conquests are the ones where there's some dignity/reluctance to overcome. Plus she's hot lol. Characters like Rosalind that are kind of "pre-broken" are enormous fun, too, but there's a unique joy in the takedown.

 

[Walnutt]

To me, everyone involved who's doing it for the money while making virtuous noises is just lying to themselves about their moral culpability, including Hana.

Couldn't you argue that not working at the club, and subsequently not allowing her mother to receive August's money for her medical care, would be the morally wrong thing to do? All Hana does is serve drinks. She doesn't abuse the girls, she's not involved directly in the activities; she's just the bartender. She makes it very clear that she's 100% only there because of her mom and, the fact that she's doing something that she is vehemently opposed to for the sake of her mother, makes her even more virtuous in my eyes.

 

[sunaboz]

what a game man, short update but high quality, absolutely love the boss and her kind of domination relationship with the mc

I wouldn't call it short, there are quite variations to consider and the scenes we get are rather long and when you compare this update with other games updates it's more than long.

She makes it very clear that she's 100% only there because of her mom and, the fact that she's doing something that she is vehemently opposed to for the sake of her mother, makes her even more virtuous in my eyes.

Well, she did get curious and checked the show and once she saw MC's dick she wanted to ride him so she's not totally opposed to everything :].

 

[Walnutt]

Well, she did get curious and checked the show and once she saw MC's dick she wanted to ride him so she's not totally opposed to everything :].

Well, that's just the power of the AVN dick lolol

 

[Heisenberg867]

Couldn't you argue that not working at the club, and subsequently not allowing her mother to receive August's money for her medical care, would be the morally wrong thing to do? All Hana does is serve drinks. She doesn't abuse the girls, she's not involved directly in the activities; she's just the bartender. She makes it very clear that she's 100% only there because of her mom and, the fact that she's doing something that she is vehemently opposed to for the sake of her mother, makes her even more virtuous in my eyes.

I see where you're coming from, but sorry, I disagree. I once heard "I've got a mortgage" referred to as the Yuppie Nuremberg Defense and it makes me chuckle every time I remember it. Everyone has financial needs that, to them, are incredibly important, and seem to be worth bending certain moral rules - but if everyone operates on that basis, society crumbles (or at least weakens).

Nor do I think it's a defense that Hana plays only a minor role in the operation of the club. The club requires a bartender to function. It's a minor role, for sure, but a necessary one, and most criminal organizations are built on a collection of people like Hana who console themselves that they're only playing an auxiliary role in the crime. "I just dispose of the bodies", "I just wash the dirty money", etc. Participation is therefore evil, although of course of a relatively minor evil variety.

As an aside, speaking as someone who enjoys the male dom kink, she's a significant "catch" from an employee perspective, because she's an attractive, dignified woman being made to do something she finds disgusting for money, just like Veronica. Her very dislike of her own job - while still continuing to do it - is a turn-on. She's a featured attraction, in some ways, in a way that a person who has no dignity in the first place, like Felicia, is not. I'm not turned on by rape, but the phrase "you can't rape the willing" is analogous to what I'm talking about.

And sure, the club could operate without her, but the same is true of most criminal enterprises. "Somebody was going to sell drugs to that junkie." Being a good person requires acknowledging that it may be true, but it doesn't mean you have to participate. Your soul is at stake, and you have a responsibility to set a good example for others. See e.g. Russell Crowe's character in American Gangster, who refuses to take dirty money that his corrupt milieu actually expects him to take and punishes him for not taking.

I note for anyone reading this out of context that I'm actually playing the evil route and having great fun doing it. This is just an unexpectedly enjoyable discussion about theoretical ethics.

 

[Walnutt]

I see where you're coming from, but sorry, I disagree. I once heard "I've got a mortgage" referred to as the Yuppie Nuremberg Defense and it makes me chuckle every time I remember it. Everyone has financial needs that, to them, are incredibly important, and seem to be worth bending certain moral rules - but if everyone operates on that basis, society crumbles (or at least weakens).

Nor do I think it's a defense that Hana plays only a minor role in the operation of the club. The club requires a bartender to function. It's a minor role, for sure, but a necessary one, and most criminal organizations are built on a collection of people like Hana who console themselves that they're only playing an auxiliary role in the crime. "I just dispose of the bodies", "I just wash the dirty money", etc. Participation is therefore evil, although of course of a relatively minor evil variety.

As an aside, speaking as someone who enjoys the male dom kink, she's a significant "catch" from an employee perspective, because she's an attractive, dignified woman being made to do something she finds disgusting for money, just like Veronica. Her very dislike of her own job - while still continuing to do it - is a turn-on. She's a featured attraction, in some ways, in a way that a person who has no dignity in the first place, like Felicia, is not. I'm not turned on by rape, but the phrase "you can't rape the willing" is analogous to what I'm talking about.

And sure, the club could operate without her, but the same is true of most criminal enterprises. "Somebody was going to sell drugs to that junkie." Being a good person requires acknowledging that it may be true, but it doesn't mean you have to participate. Your soul is at stake, and you have a responsibility to set a good example for others. See e.g. Russell Crowe's character in American Gangster, who refuses to take dirty money that his corrupt milieu actually expects him to take and punishes him for not taking.

I note for anyone reading this out of context that I'm actually playing the evil route and having great fun doing it. This is just an unexpectedly enjoyable discussion about theoretical ethics.

Thanks for giving such detailed responses!

Ethics isn't black and white so it's interesting to see other people's viewpoints. I completely understand what you're saying and where you're coming from but I still disagree. We're both using electronic devices right now that have many parts manufactured in third world countries where people work for almost free in very inhumane conditions. I wouldn't call us evil for using our electronics in spite of the fact that we are arguably culpable in the poor condition of those people's lives.

This is a little questionable in comparison but a great ethical quandary is a situation where someone kills one person to save five people. Is that person evil for killing someone even though that action directly led to five lives being saved? Conversely, Hana is complicit in this evil organization yet her complicity directly leads to saving the life of her mother. I don't think that falls under being evil as, in my view, evil is intent as much as action.

 

[Silver2301]

So I played the game(not till the latest ver) and I have some questions.
Is this game heavily focused on being the bad guy?
or being good is rewarding enough?
I mean I don't mind being an asshole and getting all the scenes but I also like to be a good guy if it's rewarding enough.
So far I really like hana and mina( wouldn't mind even cucking lan for her lmao although I wonder if I can call it that since he doesn't seem to care for her a lot)
BTW the game really great the story is really intriguing well written, the renders and animation are well-done props to the dev keep up the good work.

 

[Crimsonfiend76]

So I played the game(not till the latest ver) and I have some questions.
Is this game heavily focused on being the bad guy?
or being good is rewarding enough?
I mean I don't mind being an asshole and getting all the scenes but I also like to be a good guy if it's rewarding enough.
So far I really like hana and mina( wouldn't mind even cucking lan for her lmao although I wonder if I can call it that since he doesn't seem to care for her a lot)
BTW the game really great the story is really intriguing well written, the renders and animation are well-done props to the dev keep up the good work.

Pretty much play however you feel like. I’m playing as good/neutral and haven’t exactly missed out on anything just yet. Given that Ian isn’t too attached or jealous over Mina, my mc has no problem appreciating her and is actively planning on romancing her and Hana simultaneously, while still fooling around with the other girls on the side (Felecia & Veronica primarily).

 

[Boehser Onkel]

soooo
how the hell get i rid of that killian freak?
this guy is a pain....
pissing him of with given choices seems not work

 

[ename144]

mmm I don't think it's that black and white. Even if you want to play as the "virtuous" MC, you can still empathize with Ian and see that you could easily fall down the path that he took and, instead of abandoning your childhood friend, you could work on helping him become a little less "evil."

That being said, I'm not fully sold on Ian even being that evil; he's just a young douchebag who views most women as sexual objects. While that isn't how you should view them, and he definitely does some morally bad things, he isn't evil. He's just young and stupid.

He's young, stupid, and has spent the last two years in an environment that not only condones his attitude towards women, it practically demands it. I don't think it's implausible to think that with the right encouragement Ian could become a better person, at least to an extent.

After all, we know Ian is capable of being a very caring individual. We see that repeatedly with the MC and Victoria. If the MC asks Mina to say something nice about Ian, she mentions that "Sometimes he blindly walks into making a girl feel special." I suspect that on those occasions, Ian saw Mina in a just the right circumstances and allowed his empathy to extend to her, too.

Hopefully we'll learn more about just why Ian stays with Mina soon, as that should give us a much better idea of what we have to work with (or against, for those of us trying to get Mina themselves).

With regards to Kathleen, typically she right in my wheelhouse since I tend to prefer milfs/older women and with those glasses, she’s smoking hot. When first introduced to her character I knew I had to pursue her romantically but the more I get to know her, I’m not sure she can be redeemed or even wants to. My other ‘type’ are redheads so I was conflicted about Veronica since I love that Amazonian goddess, but her abrasive personality and general preference in lovers seems to make it quite the challenge to pursue her romantically.

Admittedly, I'm skeptical that I'm Veronica's type. But abrasive personality?

We can score points with Veronica for telling Kathleen to knock off the objectification crap and get on with it. What's not to love?

So I played the game(not till the latest ver) and I have some questions.
Is this game heavily focused on being the bad guy?
or being good is rewarding enough?
I mean I don't mind being an asshole and getting all the scenes but I also like to be a good guy if it's rewarding enough.
So far I really like hana and mina( wouldn't mind even cucking lan for her lmao although I wonder if I can call it that since he doesn't seem to care for her a lot)
BTW the game really great the story is really intriguing well written, the renders and animation are well-done props to the dev keep up the good work.

As far as "good" being rewarding enough, I think it's a personal call. The game is heavily focused on the opportunity to be the bad guy, but it does offer the choice to decline. The actual rewards for being good are minimal so far, but I find it quite satisfying. I'm certainly hopeful that will keep up as time goes on.

(Also, Hana is worth the price of admission all on her own, IMHO.)