VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Ozymandias037]

Well, firstly you didn't get my main point about my perception of Felicia's character.

Secondly, as I said twice, according to the porn logic you are absolutely correct. But how many rich people you know personally who like to degrade themselves, who like to be submissive? How many rich people you know at all?

Thirdly, you are wrong in many details. For example, August threatening the families of the club members is ridiculous. Whom would he threaten, the city's police chief or other millionaires? You probably watched too many gangster movies about all powerful mafia, but in reality the mafia exists as long as the state is weak or allows the mafia to exist for some reason. And August isn't even a mafia boss but just a successful pimp.

But that's OK. I don't want to return to the lengthy discussions about details, they lead nowhere and anyway people always read the comments in the wrong way.

I get it from you and other members that Felicia is a sick, mentally unstable, unpredictable whore without self respect. That's OK, means she is not an LI but a side girl in my view. Still good to watch porn with her.

I think it sums it up.

I know several people who I would consider rich, actually (for reference, I don't know exactly finances but I know their net worth is over $2,000,000). I don't know the....proclivities of all of them, but one of them is quite open with close friends about how erotic they find being dominated, and they have regular monthly appointments with a dominatrix. No intercourse, because both the dominatrix and the rich person want to stay on the right side of the law, but various other kinky things.

Because here's the other secret about S&M, at least in the real world: When it's done right, the sub has all the power. The sub can make everything stop at any moment, and that's what makes it safe to play around in that transgressive space. But I don't want to get too far off topic.

Obviously Felicia's situation in the game is not quite the same, because she doesn't have quite as much freedom to make everything stop as a client paying for a service in the real world. But even so, Felicia is involved in this competition by choice, because she thinks it will help her get what she wants. She could walk away at any moment. That's one of the reasons Kathleen is on such a mission to make it personal and fuck with Felicia's head. She wants to see Felicia desperate and miserable, like the others.

I think you misinterpreted what I meant about August threatening family members. I didn't mean to imply that he had done so -- I don't think he has. All I meant to say is that the members of the club know he is a dangerous man, and not to be crossed. I admit I'm making assumptions here, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that they'd think a lot more than twice before pissing him off. That's the thing about threats -- they work best when they're implied.

Finally, I think you're still missing the biggest point that all of us are trying to make about Felicia. You keep saying she's cheap, tainted, tarnished, lacking self-respect. I think the crux of the issue is that you simply can't conceive of a person who could accept the humiliation and degradation that the Carnations go through while still maintaining positive self-image. the rest of us recognize that those two things are not mutually exclusive, especially for someone who actively gets off on being treated that way. It's not my jam either, personally, but I have no trouble accepting that there are people who find it more tolerable and less repugnant than you seem to. Felicia, specifically, simply does not care. For her, it's a means to an end, with the very large cherry on top that she actively enjoys it.

And that's okay! I feel it's important to acknowledge that I have seen and understand you saying that Felicia is one of your favorite characters despite what you see as unrealistic or disappointing aspects. I disagree with you about most of the things you find disappointing, but that's okay too! I've said my piece, you've said yours, and I have no problem with agreeing to disagree, since it's clear you'll not be convinced to change your mind. Which, again, is fine.

At the end of the day, I think the fact that so many people have chimed into this argument over however many dozens of posts it's been only serves to illustrate how great this game is. What other porn game has such depth of character that people will spend actual weeks of our presumably busy lives arguing over the motivations, personalities, flaws, and foibles of characters who, at the simplest possible level, exist just so we can all get off?

I've said this many times, but the richness of character and story that the developers have put into this game simply blows me away. The very fact that we can sit here and discuss these characters in such depth and so many aspects of their personalities and choices absolutely amazes me. TD has created real, three-dimensional characters and placed them in situations that demand we, as the readers, think about things we might otherwise not. And the craziest thing of all, to me, is that it's a porn game! I am constantly amazed at finding such Literary Merit (Capitalized for Serious English Professor Navel Gazing) in a piece of media like this. I would never have imagined it possible. But here we are, and I'm gleefully along for the ride.

Even if we do know it's going to end really badly for a lot of the characters we've come to love shhhhhhhhhh

 

[Beduin123]

I don't know the....

As I said, you don't know. There is this popular culture image that some of them must be into extreme submission, but that's it.

I think you misinterpreted what I meant about August threatening family members.

No, I didn't. I got exactly what you meant and replied accordingly.

Finally, I think you're still missing the biggest point that all of us are trying to make about Felicia.

No, now I see your point according to the porn logic. Still looks very unlikely for me outside of it.

how great this game is

Totally agree with you on that and suggest that we leave it at it.

 

[Turret]

But anyway, most people are idiots and cannot read, let alone think.

Soso, thanks for this information. Even with some truth in that, you know with sentences like these you sound like a wrong-way driver rageing about the big bunch of ghost drivers he meets all day?

That's what I also find unrealistic. I guess that's how porn logic works, but IRL it's hard to imagine highly intelligent and determined woman, who Felicia is, enjoying to be degraded to such low level. I mean there is no physical pleasure for a woman to be spunk on by a dozen of old dirty men or being degraded in other ways. So, either she is totally fucked up in the head, and I mean totally (you can call it a kink or whatever), or she does it for money (which is clearly not Felicia's case).
So, again I agree, by the pure porn logic it may be OK. But in this case Felicia loses a large part of her appeal to me as I don't enjoy smart and beautiful women being completely degraded to the dirt. It means they don't have self respect which means I, in turn, have no respect for them.
In the beginning of the game she appeared as a mysterious, smart, manipulative and extremely beautiful woman, but her present image is rather a mentally troubled, unstable and broken person. I think in its core it is this change of her character that I find hard to accommodate.

As Ozymandias037 already mentioned, sexual preferences like exhibitionism, dom/sub play, prefered position, clothes, etc. exist. For all of us, in various mixtures. Many of those are not physical, but mental things, the brain is the biggest sex organ of all at the end!
Felicia is an avid exhibitionist, likes sub games among other sex-related stuff. So her plan was not so bad in the first place. Giving Elias a hidden longbowman salute, have fun and gain connections/influence outside(!) Elias sphere. And when you do not play to deliberately lose, you can see it is working not too shabbily. Felicia gains influence with some of the influential guys. you might have overlooked it, but one of Elias biggest rivals is busy "courting" Felicia just for the giggles to know he has Elias by the metaphorical balls if he can get Felicia on his side.
You seem to not take into account that Felicia is NOT out to get the respect of the PC club members, that is not something she expects. Nice if she gets it, but not problematic if not. She is out for influence, power and riches of her own to save her heart project. It is secondary for her how respected she is among the Club if she gains the influence she needs. Working relationships function better with respect, but is not necessary to function. That´s Felicia´s calculus for the competition.

Her biggest problem is Kath with her sadism. Felicia is clearly one of Epikur´s children, sex, even kinky sex is for FUN. So she is unprepared for some of Kath´s games. Feli sucks at taking and dishing out punishment, as we can see in game. And to the total surprise of Rosi and Veronika, who have problems processing that Feli took 20 minutes of abuse without problems because it tickled some of her sexual kinks one week, but cannot stand other abuse at all the next.
While nor part of my main playthroughs, there is a scene you can get which illustrates this very well. During the scene with the cattle prods in a variant Felicia starts crying and mumbles paraphrased "How can this be fun? It only hurts."

 

[Beduin123]

gain connections/influence outside(!) Elias sphere

That's the most lame part of that. I know some people from business world and they always regard sluts (no matter how smart or stylish they are) as sluts. Not as prospective partners if that is what Felicia wants. You cannot expect to exercise influence over somebody whom you are totally submitted to.
In my view influence contains a hefty part of respect. Especially in the business world.

 

[crastock]

That's what I also find unrealistic. I guess that's how porn logic works, but IRL it's hard to imagine highly intelligent and determined woman, who Felicia is, enjoying to be degraded to such low level. I mean there is no physical pleasure for a woman to be spunk on by a dozen of old dirty men or being degraded in other ways. So, either she is totally fucked up in the head, and I mean totally (you can call it a kink or whatever), or she does it for money (which is clearly not Felicia's case).

So, again I agree, by the pure porn logic it may be OK. But in this case Felicia loses a large part of her appeal to me as I don't enjoy smart and beautiful women being completely degraded to the dirt. It means they don't have self respect which means I, in turn, have no respect for them.

In the beginning of the game she appeared as a mysterious, smart, manipulative and extremely beautiful woman, but her present image is rather a mentally troubled, unstable and broken person. I think in its core it is this change of her character that I find hard to accommodate.

Felicia is clearly not more troubled than the rest of the characters in this game.
Since the very beginning of the game she shows very little inhibition (since she literally fucks the MC while nearly knowing them). Its true she does have some wierd sexual fantasies, but at the same time she actually doesn't enjoy physical pain or extreme types of humiliation, so for the most part she only put up with some things in the exhibition.
What set her apart from the other two Carnations is her low inhibition and being more sexually liberated(or shameless, whatever you want to call it), other than that the exhibition is a means to an end for her.
So yeah, I don't know what leads you to belive that she is somehow insane or unpredictable, when she much more level-headed and intelligent than the rest of the cast.

 

[crastock]

That's the most lame part of that. I know some people from business world and they always regard sluts (no matter how smart or stylish they are) as sluts. Not as prospective partners if that is what Felicia wants. You cannot expect to exercise influence over somebody whom you are totally submitted to.
In my view influence contains a hefty part of respect. Especially in the business world.

I don't think she is looking for another husband, lol

Also, you can see many rich men marrying promiscuous women.

 

[Beduin123]

Since the very beginning of the game she shows very little inhibition (since she literally fucks the MC while nearly knowing them).

Fucking a stranger or being humiliated in front of a group of strangers is a bit different. Don't you think?

I had a girlfriend who brought me home and bedded me within two hours after we first met. And she was very sexually liberated up to the point of wanting to have sex in parks and other public places. But she would never publicly degrade herself. If she would, I'd lose interest in her the very moment.
But I can believe some people may find it hot when their GF does it. Just never met one IRL.

I don't think she is looking for another husband, lol

I don't suggest that but I also don't understand what kind of "influence" she can find.

Also, you can see many rich men marrying promiscuous women.

True, but there is still a difference between a gold digger and a total slut. Marrying a slut can be harmful for your reputation and that's what these folks value above all.

 

[ffive]

What makes you be so sure that Chuck won't discipline (reprimand or punish) Grace for what she did?

He's already explained it -- Chuck doesn't give two shits about Victoria, so why would he care that Grace has been rude to her, or think that's something that warrants a punishment?

And no, "but Ian likes Victoria" doesn't necessarily make Victoria valuable to Chuck, or for Chuck to fret that Grace has been rude to her. If anything, it may be quite the opposite, since Victoria is potentially an opposing influence that holds Ian back from fully embracing the attitude Chuck wants Ian to have, i.e. full-on hedonism where other people are just toys for personal amusement.

To add further, no way will Chuck risk antagonizing his nephew that he loves.

Why is it? You have just been telling us how unconditional spoiling is bad, and that a parent won't refrain from disciplining their children and that Chuck will for sure punish his beloved Grace. That is very much antagonizing said children, and yet you believe Chuck has it in him just fine. But suddenly not when it comes to Ian, even though he's also like a parent to him?

I'm pretty sure Chuck would be perfectly willing to antagonize Ian if it meant he can get Ian to become what Chuck wants him to become in the end.

 

[crastock]

Fucking a stranger or being humiliated in front of a group of strangers is a bit different. Don't you think?

I had a girlfriend who brought me home and bedded me within two hours after we first met. And she was very sexually liberated up to the point of wanting to have sex in parks and other public places. But she would never publicly degrade herself. If she would, I'd lose interest in her the very moment.
But I can believe some people may find it hot when their GF does it. Just never met one IRL.
difference between a gold digger and a total slut. Marrying a slut can be harmful for your reputation and that's what these folks value above all.

Duh!
I guess my point is that Felicia enjoys that on her own term, she doesn't mind exposing herself, and she gets off on showing her body and having sex on stage. I mean yeah, those are pretty wierd predilections, and I agree most men could find it off putting, but it doesn't make her insane. Also she doesn't enjoy all kind of degradation or masochism, I wouldn't even say she is a masochist.

As for gaining influence... her ultimate goals are kinda unattainable given the chauvinistic attitudes of the patrons, but who knows... I think this is also part of her having low inhibitions, even if her plan fails and joining the club leads her nowhere she kinda feels untouchable, which will come to bit her in the ass later. But even all this wouldn't make her insane, just much less clever than she thinks she is.

 

[ffive]

That's the most lame part of that. I know some people from business world and they always regard sluts (no matter how smart or stylish they are) as sluts. Not as prospective partners if that is what Felicia wants. You cannot expect to exercise influence over somebody whom you are totally submitted to.
In my view influence contains a hefty part of respect. Especially in the business world.

Felicia isn't looking for business partners. She's looking to blackmail people from safety granted by being in position of power.

As for exercising influence over someone you've submitted to -- you are conflating business transaction and consensual sexual act with social life outside of it. Again. To bring up pretty obvious example: certain president to-be may be thinking of literal prostitute as a "slut" that he's fucked, but he's still paid her plenty of hush money just the same. His lack of respect didn't matter squat. And i doubt the woman was particularly heart-broken how he talks about her, while she was laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Turret]

That's the most lame part of that. I know some people from business world and they always regard sluts (no matter how smart or stylish they are) as sluts. Not as prospective partners if that is what Felicia wants. You cannot expect to exercise influence over somebody whom you are totally submitted to.
In my view influence contains a hefty part of respect. Especially in the business world.

Once again, Felicia is not into finding a new husband in the Club. It is all about gaining the means to save the art school. Respect and all that is secondary. Also you overlook one big thing I and several other members already told you. Felicia is very uninhibited, but even she has red lines. For instance you can see at her reactions that her sub/humiliation kink is mostly about roleplaying it.
Real humiliation and pain is NOT something she likes, quite the contrary. It is actually a big surprise for Feli that Kath is so much into sadism, humiliation and pain and shapes the competition to suit these whims.

As for respect, influence and the business world it seems you have quite a rosetinted view. Or maybe you mix up business deals with social life outside it? You know that the number of functional psychopaths in the business world (some other sectors as well) is above average? And when it comes to the calculus of business, respect is nice, but secondary! For example, the firm I work in has a business partner whom our boss cannot stand at all and would like to replace sooner than later. But that is not happening and will not happen since in raw numbers it is a good deal trading with them.
A century ago, you might have had the option to exchange this business partner without all too much trouble. Unfortunately today the business world is a tank of sharks more than in earlier times and you have to do what is good for your business.

 

[crastock]

I agree. But the way she is paraded by Elias isn't as a slut, the public person she presents is clearly different to her true self.
But maybe she thinks she doesn't need respect (?), she does have the patrons intrigued by her mentality, her shamelessness or whatever... Again I don't really know what Felicia is trying to cook up, nor would I defend it, I think it's not the point for her to have an impeccable plan in mind just that she has a motivation outside exploring some wierd exhibitionist fantasies.

 

[crastock]

Felicia isn't looking for business partners. She's looking to blackmail people from safety granted by being in position of power.

As for exercising influence over someone you've submitted to -- you are conflating business transaction and consensual sexual act with social life outside of it. Again. To bring up pretty obvious example: certain president to-be may be thinking of literal prostitute as a "slut" that he's fucked, but he's still paid her plenty of hush money just the same. His lack of respect didn't matter squat. And i doubt the woman was particularly heart-broken how he talks about her, while she was laughing all the way to the bank.

OK Wait, serious questions, when does she say she wants to blackmail people?

 

[ffive]

OK Wait, serious questions, when does she say she wants to blackmail people?

I sadly can't remember the exact location. It's during one of the private talk with Edwin, either during their latest date, or earlier meeting. It's also not really spelt out or anything, more like alluded.

 

[ymy42]

I really don't understand what the problem is with Bedevi123...
Do you think the character is not consistent?

Okay...

Felicia's character can be ignored in a porn game, but you say it seems ridiculous that such a woman exists in real life...
Okay...

The person who created the character himself said that the character he drew for Felicia was quite real and logical...
He is happy with the character he drew for her so far and will probably continue like this...
So as you said, the porn game version will continue whether it makes sense to you or not...
The planet is so crowded that it contains all kinds of people...
And even if you don't witness it, there are many women like Felicia that you don't find "Realistic"...
Moreover, none of them care what you or anyone else thinks about them...
Also, can you stop acting like you are the smartest person here? So many people are wrong and you are the right one???

 

[crastock]

I sadly can't remember the exact location. It's during one of the private talk with Edwin, either during their latest date, or earlier meeting. It's also not really spelt out or anything, more like alluded.

After the photoshoots in the 2nd Week Felicia takes you up to a rooftop, she discusses her motivation for joining the club for the first time. She says some bullshit about the club being an "oportunity" or "life being a ladder" and trying to get on the patrons good side, no mention of black mail. Maybe she clarifies this on a later scene that I missed, idk

 

[Idontplay]

I sadly can't remember the exact location. It's during one of the private talk with Edwin, either during their latest date, or earlier meeting. It's also not really spelt out or anything, more like alluded.

It seems to me she want have her own connections, in order to be able to achieve her goals, even if her husband doesn't care about them, but I don't remember she said anything about blackmailing. Instead she said something about "be able to pull some strings".

I really don't understand what the problem is with Bedevi123...

I suppose you're talking about Beduin123. Anyway the answer is pretty simple: he sees in Felicia what he wants see, not what Felicia actually is and so he has a lot of problems to cope with the differences between expectation and reality.

 

[Hungover00]

Victoria just went to bed. She's sleeping now.

That's the assumption. But is she really?

 

[TD1900]

That's the assumption. But is she really?

She's peeping on them through her Ring camera.

It's just one of those times where the drama supersedes what is maybe an infinitesimal lapse in judgement for the characters. The boys talking in the car would've been too restrictive choreography wise (I wanted Edwin to get in Ian's face when things got heated), plus the imagery of them sitting on the steps of their (shared) childhood home served the moment best.

 

[Ungawa]

But how many rich people you know personally who like to degrade themselves, who like to be submissive? How many rich people you know at all?

I am just gonna deal with this one issue...

I mean, I know I'm a slow caveman and all but come on. Have you never heard of Las Vegas? What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas?

Escorts, Bunny Ranch, VIP, speak easy, casinos, mafia, giant casinos, cabaret, and all sorts of crazy fun for the rich, the powerful, the affluent, and almost entirely the template for the story with maybe a side dish of Chicago in it?

It's just me? Okay, going back to my cave...