VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Maccabbee]

I think when people say "crushing" they mean it in the sense there's no deeper feelings involved, just (intense) desire to fuck her.

That's lust, crush implies catching feels.

 

[Turret]

I thoroughly disagree with just about everything you've said here.

First of all, I think you're completely misreading Samson. He has no affection for Veronica as a person, he's interested in her only as a hot lay and a satisfying challenge to best. He's like a fun-sized Chuck, eager to get off on hurting anyone he sees as belittling him. If and when Samson manages to have his way with Veronica, you can be sure he won't lift a finger to help her save the gym. If anything, he'll openly gloat about how he ruined it in the first place just to bring the woman even lower.

Second, why on earth would the MC need to "get Veronica out of his life?" If you and/or the MC dislike hanging out with Veronica, just leave her to her own devices and the problem ceases to exist. The whole point of starting her friendship route is empathizing with her over having her dream cynically undermined. The idea that anyone would address that injustice by setting Veronica up with her tormentor boggles the mind. That's not a "grey" MC, that's a lunatic.

Third, I would dispute that Veronica makes unthinking decisions. She's unquestionably stubborn and she can certainly make mistakes, but she's always struck me as being very thoughtful about her actions. Her nettling of Kathleen, for example, is not empty bravado, it's a deliberate gambit that "makes me a bigger target, but it makes [Kathleen's] little circus more dramatic - and that's all she cares about." Likewise, breaking Samson's nose wasn't her overreacting to Samson's "best behavior;" she elbowed him because he groped her for no reason! Sure, Kathleen was only too happy to twist the action against Veronica, but that's because Kathleen is a piece of shit and Veronica underestimated her sadism. Her evaluation of Samson was spot on.

Lastly, at the risk of showing my bias, I take umbrage at the notion Veronica is more annoying than the doctor who likes to dose people with an unlicensed aphrodisiac purely for the lulz.

Folks... We have to keep the story straight...

It's the initial force for Veronica to come into a hellish game and he came behind her and she hit him in the nose.

It was an accident. She had to guzzle cum for wrong answers and puke out her guts later on.

You talk to Samson in the sauna and he explains how he came up with the idea before the nose decking.

Samson didn't play nice with V at all. He'd already saddled her up with debt, had her coach give her bad loans, and made out like a bandit on other things while she was naive. V is looking for a temporary reprieve but she's working hard in quicksand. And Samson wanting to get in her Dommy Mommy pants isn't helping at all.

.... and if some of y'all think that what Samson is feeling towards Veronica is "crushing," then you maybe need to see a psychologist. He admires her, is obsessed, lusts after her, but ultimately wants to conquer her. What he's doing is destroying her in an attempt to dominate her. It's slow motion rape, not seduction. If you think that's "crushing" then I'm glad I'm only interacting through a forum, and not IRL.

Post successful, discussion running!
I have only more time in the evening or tomorrow to answer all stuff, but it got the discussion about Samson, Veronika and his friendship score (only one among the Club members) going. I am fully aware what a dick move it would be hooking up Samson and Veronika and it´s why I said a solution for a grey and dark Edwin. This solution of the Veronika story is completely about Edwin´s(!) gains while solving some other problems, but as an afterthought.
Samson going this far, getting Veronika into the Club due to his long meddling, shows that at least some crush feelings are involved. You do not go this far for simply a fuck, that Samson can get anytime in the Club. Even for revenge, this is a long time.
Also when you look at the scene in the Sauna, there is a moment where his face looks very much like John Wayne´s. I doubt that it is the intention to show " the Duke" as a complete prick throughout the whole game.

 

[Ozymandias037]

Spoiler: Spoilered for length

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I fucking love this post. Enough that I'm going to say it twice: I fucking love this post.

Eloquent, insightful, and (in my opinion) spot on analysis, and clearly a kindred spirit who can also recognize the Literary Value (caps, as always, used as shorthand for "all that Serious Academic English Department stuff") of this game. I won't even attempt to respond to everything you've said, but I agree with almost all of it and I appreciate you taking the time to put it all into words more eloquently than I have thus far been able to (or perhaps taken the time to) do.

I applaud you.

 

[UmbralKnight]

Damn boy, you must be a fast reader.
I'm at least 20hrs in, and i'm nowhere near the end of the game (dyslexia + english is not my mother tongue, but still)


Knowing the first part of my post, I can say ~30hrs is you're not a fast reader and you quick save / quick load time to time to see other output.

i maybe a fast leader by ESL standards.
but i have no idea how fast or slow native speakers read , i recently played the game again from the beginning and it took me around 18 hours to complete so i estimated it would take ATLEAST 8 to 12 hours to complete the game.
but hey no need to rush through the game , after all then you would have nothing to do but engage in endless waifu wars for months until the next update drops.

You seriously do not get the intention here, neither for grey moral nor a dark Edwin, sorry! Three misses when it comes to reasons in your post alone.

I tell you the reasoning behind it. In my main "grey hat" Edwin playthrough he is nice guy, wanting to help others, but he does not intent to save the whole world in one go, he can make hard choices if he must. In that playthrough Veronika is really an annoyance, but no one should suffer under the sadist old hag that Kath is.

So to get her out of his hair and give the metaphorical middle finger to Kath, Edwin will try to couple Samson and Veronika up. Samson is often a prick, but he is still majorly crushing on Veronika, despite her decking him. As said, Veronica should have had simply shot him down, not hitting him, at that time Samson was on best behaviour. While what he then did is a total dick move, it is partly understandable, since he tried to be nice and got hit. This old event is another evidence for Veronika´s two biggest flaws: being too stubborn and prone to rash, unthinking decisions.
While Samson would certainly have tried again to flirt and get her, giving him a simple turn down would have been far better for Veronica, since then Samson would not have began to plan revenge.

Anyway, I try to keep good relations with both Samson and Veronika in the hope one day we get the option to couple them up.
1) You get Veronika out of your life and Samson will certainly be and stay friendly. No one knows when that might come in handy. (e.g. helping Mina getting into cinema movies or talk about Hana and band to some music guys he certainly will know)
2) If the two are together they will find a solution for the gym to survive. Coincidentially it might also deny "Camp Lesbo Gym" coming into existence.
3) longbowman salute to Kath, because with the gym or at least Veronika´s life in other waters, Kath cannot keep her in PC. But then again, I fully intend to help Abel and Sophia bringing down Kath, so she will not have a say in PC anymore. But the thought counts.
4) Samson will learn about the wise punchline "Beware your wishes, you might get it". While I think the two could become longterm under the right circumstances, Veronika is still herself. So stubborness and rash hipshot decisions will be pop up with some regularity. That is one reason why I do not push for continued communication with Veronika even on my "white knight" playthrough. Complete no go, I had the dubious pleasure to know a person with traits like Veronika.

the grey zone solution would be pairing up veronica with mina than samson.

 

[Hungover00]

That's lust, crush implies catching feels.

'Hard on for' would cover the lust without feels.

 

[ename144]

Samson going this far, getting Veronika into the Club due to his long meddling, shows that at least some crush feelings are involved. You do not go this far for simply a fuck, that Samson can get anytime in the Club. Even for revenge, this is a long time.

It's not about sex OR revenge, it's all about power. Veronica is the type of girl who wouldn't deign to sleep with Samson in a million years under normal circumstances. Getting not only to fuck her but to abuse her to his every whim is - in his eyes - a worthy challenge. That's why he's so invested in it, and also why he'll leave her high and dry once he's done: the casual dismissal will make his conquest all the more one-sided.

 

[thela2]

being able make choices that actually matters is great and its very rare to see in this kind of games butttt waiting 6 month to only get a 1 scene is kinda annoying ngl

 

[lustforsex]

being able make choices that actually matters is great and its very rare to see in this kind of games butttt waiting 6 month to only get a 1 scene is kinda annoying ngl

It seems we are playing different games.

 

[DirtyMario]

It seems we are playing different games.

Or different paths.

On another note, is there a fancy japanese acronym for me not liking to see my ingame mother get fucked by sleazy guys? Does that fit into the NTR term or is that just for romantic partners?
Man I REALLY dislike that.

 

[Thor875]

Sehr spät zur Party wegen der Feiertage und wegen der Arbeit, die meine Seele verschlingt, aber natürlich würde ich mir eine weitere Goon-Schreibrunde nicht entgehen lassen, in der ich meine Gedanken für mein Lieblingsspiel auf dieser Seite niederschreibe. Wie immer eine ausgezeichnete, hervorragende Arbeit von TD und GIL, und auch wenn es nicht so stark ist wie einige der vorherigen Updates, betrachte ich dieses Spiel immer noch als großen Erfolg.

Spoiler: Verschiedene Gedanken

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Spoiler: Andrea

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Spoiler: Der Auftritt der Band

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Spoiler: Victoria

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Spoiler: Rose

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Nun, ich hatte gedacht, dass dies ein etwas kürzerer Artikel sein würde, wegen einiger ungleichmäßiger Eindrücke, die ich von diesem Update erhalten habe, aber es sieht so aus, als ob es viel Saft zu pressen gab. Vielen Dank an TD und GIL, dass sie so stark in das Jahr 2025 gestartet sind und sich wie immer auf mehr freuen.
[/ZITAT]

 

[Turret]

the grey zone solution would be pairing up veronica with mina than samson.

I have to disagree here! While I prefer other women in PC, Mina is a dear friend. I would never throw her to the wolves, in this case Veronica, who ruined her once-happy marriage for a god damn frakking gym!
For me a grey zone solution in general is that I want to help many people and doing so, but that there are cases where my own gains take very much precedence.

 

[Idontplay]

You are not enough degenerate to understand the pleasure that you can feel throwing a sweetheart like Mina to Veronica; above all if you have made a deal like: «I will help you to fuck her, if you allow me to train in your gym for free.»

 

[ffive]

A broken Veronica won’t have any where to go outside of the club.

As mentioned repeatedly, Veronica has literally whole world to go to outside of the club, once she stops being attached to her gym (no matter if this separation is voluntary or a development she simply fails to prevent) She can work in any other gym instead of turning tricks for people she despises.

 

[ffive]

On another note, is there a fancy japanese acronym for me not liking to see my ingame mother get fucked by sleazy guys? Does that fit into the NTR term or is that just for romantic partners?
Man I REALLY dislike that.

It's technically not NTR because Victoria isn't Edwin's romantic partner (and never will be). And NTR is about getting your romantic partner seduced away.

On the other hand, (some of) people with NTR vulnerability are rarely concerned with technicalities and go with simple "i feel jealous and hurt therefore it's NTR".

 

[Turret]

Veronica is an asset as a dark/grey Edwin play through though.

The gym is the perfect place to have a public testing of any new or updated horny medicine or legal medicine without Edwin’s name tied to it. Just swap out the butt vitamin injections or mix them with the new medicine.

On the money front after Veronica loses the competition and everything in her life. A broken Veronica won’t have any where to go outside of the club. That’s where Edwin can swoop in and be the “hero” and have her work at the club.

Edwin can play on Samsons obsession with Veronica and rake in his Hollywood cash by trickle feeding him Veronica and have a huge pay out with Samson dressed up as John Wayne and Veronica in Native American gear or something when her body ages out sex work.

Just giving a narcissistic bully in Samson what he wants by letting Veronica hook up with him for free doesn’t gain Dark Edwin any money or respect/power. It’s just giving up an asset Willy Nilly. That’s a dumb Edwin play though not a grey or dark Edwin play through.

Pardon, but your plan won´t work! The moment Veronika loses the competition, she is gone. Surely broken, but without the gym, she will go away somewhere else. There is literally nothing holding her in Moorhead Hills.

Using the gym as a place to test new stuff Sophia comes up with is equally dumb. Remember, Abel and Sophia have secret labs to test out anything without risk of exposure. The two "testing" the super Viagra in the Club has complete different reasons.

Why this obsession with Samson´s money? A white or grey Edwin will be well-off either way at the end of the game unless he messes up completely. As I mentioned e.g. Samson´s connections into the movie world are nice to have. He still has these connections., even if he dislikes some of his movies from an actor´s view.

Also hooking up Veronica with Samson might be a dick move giving that Samson is mostly responsible for Veronica´s woes (something she does not know), but it is not dumb! It is soft power approach when you have high friendship scores with Samson and Veronica. It is manipulative, but as I wrote before it brings Samson firmly into your camp. He might not be the most influential or rich club member, but he might come in handy when the true upheaval starts. While not a fighter like Warren or Jacob, it is hinted at that Samson had it rough before becoming a movie star.

 

[Hungover00]

It's technically not NTR because Victoria isn't Edwin's romantic partner (and never will be). And NTR is about getting your romantic partner seduced away.

On the other hand, (some of) people with NTR vulnerability are rarely concerned with technicalities and go with simple "i feel jealous and hurt therefore it's NTR".

However, I believe there is a subsection of NTR games that focus on mothers or other family members that aren't romantically linked to the MC. So there's a market for that.

 

[UmbralKnight]

I have to disagree here! While I prefer other women in PC, Mina is a dear friend. I would never throw her to the wolves, in this case Veronica, who ruined her once-happy marriage for a god damn frakking gym!
For me a grey zone solution in general is that I want to help many people and doing so, but that there are cases where my own gains take very much precedence.

true ,true vernonica did kill her marriage trying to save her gym but considering the fact that last person mina was in a relationship was IAN , Veroncia is clearly an upgrade.

 

[ffive]

true ,true vernonica did kill her marriage trying to save her gym but considering the fact that last person mina was in a relationship was IAN , Veroncia is clearly an upgrade.

Well, we don't exactly know how many flings Veronica cheated on her wife with. Maybe let's wait with opening the champagne just yet.

(maybe that marriage murder wasn't all about trying to save the gym)

 

[ename144]

Well, we don't exactly know how many flings Veronica cheated on her wife with. Maybe let's wait with opening the champagne just yet.

(maybe that marriage murder wasn't all about trying to save the gym)

If we're going down that rabbit hole, we have even less idea how many flings Liliana had while they were married... and she's the one quick to remarry. Coincidence??

 

[UmbralKnight]

If we're going down that rabbit hole, we have even less idea how many flings Liliana had while they were married... and she's the one quick to remarry. Coincidence??

exactly !
we know very little about her wife.

Well, we don't exactly know how many flings Veronica cheated on her wife with. Maybe let's wait with opening the champagne just yet.

(maybe that marriage murder wasn't all about trying to save the gym)

well i would never defend cheating but we don't know exactly know HOW her marriage broke down ,we only have a clue about WHY it fell apart.
veroncia does admit that she has had several flings recently but it's AFTER her divorce.
meanwhile let's not forget mina isn't exactly innocent either , she was making moves on ians best friend when she was still his GF (technically) plus she has a checklist of kinks that she wants to clear with the help of her current BFs best friend !

Ian catching strays. Hes been a pretty ride or die bro for Edwin. Also Victoria likes him, gotta trust goat mommy on these types of things.

ian is a bro and the MC definitely knows that he loves vicky like his own mother but come on you can't trust him not to do something stupid when other women are involved even if they are the MCs GF.
ian lacks self control