VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Idontplay]

Im guessing these old perverts will be patrons of her desired school. Plus I tend to believe that part of this is a fuck you to her husband.

BINGO!
Except for the fact the school is closed, but the right people can reopen it.

 

[tslojr]

So I've been following this game for a couple of years now, and decided to do a new play through for the newest update. One of the things I've always enjoyed about Pale Carnations is the writing/foreshadowing. Something fairly innocuous is mentioned or briefly shown one update, with a payoff further down the road. It's great, really. But I just noticed something at lunch before the first exhibition that I can't believe I never noticed before. For me personally, the implications of this one are huge and I can't wait to see where the devs go with this.
Here's a screenshot of what I'm talking about:

Spoiler

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[Beduin123]

Im guessing these old perverts will be patrons of her desired school. Plus I tend to believe that part of this is a fuck you to her husband.

As I said before, well worth ruining your life over.

 

[Ottoeight]

BTW, Chuck knowing that Victoria is a whore shouldn't be a surprise if you recall Edwin's conversation with Abel:

Abel: "By the way, have you ever wondered if he knew your mother?" (...) "How many videos did she shoot? How big do you think the porn industry of Morehead Hills is?"

Which again paints Victoria as a selfish woman.

The thing is Grace didn't "cross the line" or "messed up" as far as Chuck is concerned. So far the only "bad" thing she did was threatening Victoria that she would tell the truth about her (so it wouldn't even be slander/defamation but a simple truth), the question remains whether she would have gone through with this and tell everyone that Vicky did porn or if she was bluffing hoping that Vicky would be persuaded. This question can only be answered by TD but until proven otherwise Grace did (almost) nothing wrong.

More importantly though, the reason why I say that Chuck favours Grace over Ian is this bit that you've mentioned yourself:

"When it comes to small favors, I always listen to my little sister's requests. You should pick up the phone when she calls, lad."

and this one:

"That's your mother and my sister, lad. Be more respectful."

I'm pretty certain that if Chuck thought that Ian working with his father was Grace's wish and not her husband's he would have tried to persuade Ian himself, although it's clear we see this scene differently (you see it as some gentle request, I see it as a strong suggestion).


What makes me think that? It's really simple, Chuck is a sick fuck and he considers whores human trash (but not only whores, anyone mundane is human trash for him) and in general has no scruples. Some examples that show that:

1) Using a whore as a piece of furniture (when he was playing go - "Fine memories on the back of others' hardships").

2) Letting patrons beat whores bloody or worse (that was the case with Grenier who raped one of the house girls with a beer bottle which injured her significantly).

3) He doesn't even know whores' names (they're just whores to him).

4) He wasn't too happy when Edwin asked him to give Emma a night off. He also called her a bitch and later stopped himself from calling her a whore ("why do you give a damn about one of the wh--") even though he knew what Warren did to her.

5) He didn't give a shit about Rose and the only reason he decided to help her was because Olivier roughed him and Ian up.

6) "Charles Kohler made a fortune on war profiteering, bribery, falsification of documents, state-sanctioned smuggling."

7) His "disgusting dealings" (as said by a nazi, so it must be pretty bad) with golf instructor, bowling teacher or shuffleboard coach also suggest that Dr. Charles doesn't have any empathy towards people (other than those closest to him). He broke them permanently (we can only imagine what that might mean).

Chuck might also be a war criminal and at the very least he has no problems associating and joking with war criminals (that COO of Hoarfrost Risk Managment) so excuse me if I find it hard to believe he would even consider what Grace did as "crossing the line" when that line for Chuck is a light year further.


Why would he think that, what's your reasoning for that? Chuck creeps Victoria out and the only interactions he had with Victoria (that we know of) were of the awkward kind. And knowing that Chuck knows what Victoria did, no way in hell does he think that she was a better mother figure to Ian than his beloved sister. Chuck literally said: "you know she truly loves you right? I wish you two could get along" to which Ian replies "Maybe we could, if it wasn't for Dad." which suggests that Ian also loves her but it annoys him that she doesn't let him do what he wants (like Chuck does or Vicky).


That is somewhat true and I'll get into that but let me recall this line first:

"Honestly, it's my nephew. Having no children of my own, I have a soft spot for Ian and he asked me to hire you."

The phone call in the prologue suggested they haven't spoken in quite a while and that formal "Sir" spoken towards Chuck also suggested that they weren't that close. Chuck liked Edwin and was his "mentor" but the fact that they haven't been in touch the moment Edwin lost contact with Ian suggests that (there's also "It's so good to see you, lad. It's been quite some time.").

So until 3 weeks ago they haven't spoken in a long, long time. Now they're starting to bond and Chuck sees how much more happy Ian became. That still doesn't mean much because they've barely started interacting with each other. Until their squash game they haven't been much closer than in high school. Also, imagine Ian asking Chuck to let Emma go earlier or to help Rose - do you think he would answer the same way as he answered Edwin?

Regardless, him liking Edwin is one thing, Grace blackmailing Vicky is another. Considering the above (points 1-7) wouldn't you agree that Chuck doesn't give a damn about her? And wouldn't you agree that he considers Grace as someone much more precious to him than Edwin? Personally I don't see how a person like this would even consider reprimanding her sister for what she did.


Nowhere in the game has been stated that Chuck was Edwin's favourite teacher (the word "mentor" was used) and there was definitely no mention that Edwin was Chuck's favourite student. What was stated however is that Chuck always liked Edwin and that he was the only one of Ian's family who spoke to him warmly but the fact is they weren't that close (see my response above).

I think you are 110% right.

My bet is that Chuck will simply make a phone call where he calmly tells Grace to let Ian do whatever he wants without even mentioning Victoria - only if Ian mentions him something.

Some players here are totally missing the whole scenario because people tend to vividly remember the latest update only.

As I say, everybody should play the latest update, then replay the whole game from scratch in order to put everything into the proper perspective.

We have all the time we need, after all.

 

[Beduin123]

Yes, but a person in a condition of cognitive tunneling can't se how much dumb and risky is that plan.

As I said many times, I have a picture of two Felicias in my head. This one is a mentally unstable one. I mean, it can be that she broke down under all that pressure of an unhappy marriage after all that chase. But what a disappointment in this case.

 

[Idontplay]

As I said one time, you see in Felicia what you want see, not what she is.

 

[Beduin123]

As I said one time, you see in Felicia what you want see, not what she is.

Yep, but unlike many others I'm trying to apply simple logic

Nobody knows what she is. I suspect even the game Devs.

 

[ffive]

Yep, but unlike many others I'm trying to apply simple logic

As I said before, well worth ruining your life over.

You are not really applying logic. You are mainly applying your own values and deriding Felicia for having ones that differ from yours.

Yes, she evidently thinks that the matter of saving/restoring her school is worth "ruining her life over". She doesn't seem to be repulsed by sex in the way you seem to associate it with being "dirty crazed animal", given how you use to refer to it (and her) this way repeatedly. What's exactly soooo hilarious about it?

 

[DarkLords00]

I think you are 110% right.

My bet is that Chuck will simply make a phone call where he calmly tells Grace to let Ian do whatever he wants without even mentioning Victoria - only if Ian mentions him something.

Some players here are totally missing the whole scenario because people tend to vividly remember the latest update only.

As I say, everybody should play the latest update, then replay the whole game from scratch in order to put everything into the proper perspective.

We have all the time we need, after all.

I think predicting about this event for know is just shooting shots in the dark since we aren't aware yet of 2 major factors that I believe will influence a lot how all of this plays out.

Number 1: We don't know yet to what extent and how many details Victoria will tell Ian and Edwin about her conversation with Grace. If she just skeems over it, It's very doubtful there will be any repercussions at all since if Vicky just confesses about her past and chooses to NOT divulge Grace attempt at blackmailing/coerce her into directly infuencing Ian. There most likely will be no repercussions for either Grace or Chuck.

Number 2: Ian's reaction and mindset after said talk with Victoria. If Ian is in an introspective streak and he learns the full extent of what happened with Grace and Vicky I sincerely highly doubt he is just going to be ok with his mother and uncle and he could react in several ways. He could be crushed by the news, he could be REALLY angry for the first time with both of them or even choose to get away from his family permanently for real this time and not just him throwing a tantrum. After all, Grace herself said the last time she met with him that Ian had made clear he didn't want to be part of the family before being coerce by Chuck to reconsider. BUT, if the person who wanted to force him into embracing his mindset was also hiding that he has been mocking a woman that he himselfs see as a surrogate mother his whole childhood and might have done worse to her... I can't see Ian reconciling with that person at all, even if it IS his uncle.

Personally, I don't think Chuck REALLY cares about either Ian Grace or Edwin, he is just pretending he does. The real him is the self-serving hedonistic unapologetic horrible pervert he himself claims to be so even if Ian where to react I can't see him bothering punishing anyone since I believe he couldn't give less of a crap about that if he tried xD

 

[Beduin123]

You are not really applying logic. You are mainly applying your own values and deriding Felicia for having ones that differ from yours.

Yes, she evidently thinks that the matter of saving/restoring her school is worth "ruining her life over". She doesn't seem to be repulsed by sex in the way you seem to associate it with being "dirty crazed animal", given how you use to refer to it (and her) this way repeatedly. What's exactly soooo hilarious about it?

Yep mate, what you say is exactly what I call the porn logic.

 

[Turret]

Yep, but unlike many others I'm trying to apply simple logic

You do not apply logic, but just apply your believes/values and extrapolate from there no matter what actually happens instead of only in your head. People are not "dirty crazed animals" simply because they value things/places/persons/ideals different from your own.

As I said many times, I have a picture of two Felicias in my head. This one is a mentally unstable one. I mean, it can be that she broke down under all that pressure of an unhappy marriage after all that chase. But what a disappointment in this case.

Your main problem, not only with Felicia, but some other topics we covered here is that you are seeing this all binary in black and white, no other colour tones. Unfortunately for you, there are very few people, imagined or real, who are like this!

As for her plan, it is a risky one, close to a gamble. What you either do not want to see or have not played the game as thoroughly as you claim, even Felicia in a talk with our MC acknowledges that her plan is a risk. Due to Kath´s insistent meddling a larger risk than she thought before the start.
But what you also fail to acknowledge is that Felicia´s plan is working unless you make her deliberately fail! Which is what you seem to have done in game to bolster your black and white views. As mentioned earlier, Felicia, as long as she is not completely losing, makes connections which will help her with her goals. She is actually the only Carnation who might get what she wants without winning, there are too many club members who want ammo against Elias and for their own business success.

 

[Bob69]

Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff] - Update only

If you missed it you can find the old Update only patch HERE.

Universal: Ch.4 Up.5 -> Ch.4 Up.5 Public [1,74 MB]
Attached

Spoiler: How to install the patch & Info:

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[Hungover00]

Personally, I don't think Chuck REALLY cares about either Ian Grace or Edwin, he is just pretending he does. The real him is the self-serving hedonistic unapologetic horrible pervert he himself claims to be so even if Ian where to react I can't see him bothering punishing anyone since I believe he couldn't give less of a crap about that if he tried xD

Chuck's gotten old, and the old, when they realise 'memento mori' applies to them too, they start thinking about legacy. And if they can turn two young men into versions of themselves, well, that means they were right. They can justify all their actions.

 

[Cirelc]

Hi, friends. Is there anyone here who uses "URM" in this latest update and causes an error when looking for a variable? Is there a solution to solve it? Please help. Thank you.

I'm a fan or URM, but I've found it unusually buggy with Pale Carnations. It works well enough passively, but trying to monitor variables or even open up the main console tents to crash the game.

Do you guys get the known "AttributeError: 'ADVCharacter' object has no attribute '_getframe'" while looking for variables?

Spoiler: AttributeError: 'ADVCharacter' object has no attribute '_getframe'

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TLDR:

Download the zip and put it in your renpy/common/ folder and overwrite the 00action_data.rpy file.

Credits go to Boehser Onkel.

 

[Maccabbee]

Chuck's gotten old, and the old, when they realise 'memento mori' applies to them too, they start thinking about legacy. And if they can turn two young men into versions of themselves, well, that means they were right. They can justify all their actions.

Chuck doesn't seem a "legacy" kinda guy. Seems more a "monsters from the id" kinda guy, who's more interested in his own jollies and amusements than in anything left behind. He does seem to have an honest affection for Edwin and his nephew, so probably not as big a sociopath as others in the business.

 

[Hungover00]

Chuck doesn't seem a "legacy" kinda guy. Seems more a "monsters from the id" kinda guy, who's more interested in his own jollies and amusements than in anything left behind. He does seem to have an honest affection for Edwin and his nephew, so probably not as big a sociopath as others in the business.

Chuck was never primarily motivated by legacy, I agree. I think it gained some importance/traction when he stopped being able to deny he was getting old, and he didn't really have anything but his empty life of debauchery. So he took his ready-packaged nephew and friend, and pulled them into his wake. If his nephew and the nice kid who wants to be a doctor embrace his lifestyle, then that 'proves' he was right all along.

But that's just my theory/analysis.

 

[DarkLords00]

Chuck was never primarily motivated by legacy, I agree. I think it gained some importance/traction when he stopped being able to deny he was getting old, and he didn't really have anything but his empty life of debauchery. So he took his ready-packaged nephew and friend, and pulled them into his wake. If his nephew and the nice kid who wants to be a doctor embrace his lifestyle, then that 'proves' he was right all along.

If that's his goal, it was a very stupid move of him to spill his secrets to her sister especially as we can see that her sister doesn't seem to embrace either his lifestyle or way of life I know that no one can see into the future but revealing damning information about a woman you know your sister has a heavy animosity towards and don't expect it to never come to light seems like something an idiot that like to "poke a bear and see what happens" would do.

Then again, pretty much everyone in this story love to make stupid choices without considering long term ramifications, it's not only relegated to old rich assholes Edwin, Killian, Hana, Mina, all of the carnations, the whores the owners, pretty much everyone here love to push boundaries and see what they can get away with so I can totally see Chuck revealing Vicky's past to his sister just because he thought it would be funny without taking into consideration how Ian could react if he lets go of the warped worldview his uncle and family had implanted on him.

 

[Hungover00]

If that's his goal, it was a very stupid move of him to spill his secrets to her sister especially as we can see that her sister doesn't seem to embrace either his lifestyle or way of life I know that no one can see into the future but revealing damning information about a woman you know your sister has a heavy animosity towards and don't expect it to never come to light seems like something an idiot that like to "poke a bear and see what happens" would do.

Then again, pretty much everyone in this story love to make stupid choices without considering long term ramifications, it's not only relegated to old rich assholes Edwin, Killian, Hana, Mina, all of the carnations, the whores the owners, pretty much everyone here love to push boundaries and see what they can get away with so I can totally see Chuck revealing Vicky's past to his sister just because he thought it would be funny without taking into consideration how Ian could react if he lets go of the warped worldview his uncle and family had implanted on him.

Pretty sure he shared those secrets with Grace much earlier, and also that most of the legacy motivations are subconscious. So, I agree he likely didn't take into consideration Ian's reaction.

Plus, 'legacy' people often don't see those they choose to pass their legacy onto as people, but just extensions of themselves.

 

[crastock]

Yep, but unlike many others I'm trying to apply simple logic

Nobody knows what she is. I suspect even the game Devs.

Well, she I agree with you that hee idea of joining the club may not be all that great... but is not illogical, even if you disagree with her or think her approach to attaining her goals is flawed.
During the events of the game Felicia appears to very emotionally intelligent and can tolerate humiliation and provocation from Kat much better than the other Carnations and this has stayed consistent so far. The idea that she is a masochist or that she is unstable, it's just... welll, you can think that, but nothing in the narrative points to this

Like for example: Whats the evidence of her enjoying humiliation? Or her being broken? Or her "losing herself" during sex?

 

[Ozymandias037]

As I said, you don't know. There is this popular culture image that some of them must be into extreme submission, but that's it.

So we're gonna just ignore the part where I do know that the net worth is upwards of $2,000,000, just because I don't know how much higher it is? And completely ignore the personal connection to a rich person who is really into being dominated, which is exactly what you asked for? Sure, okay. This is not a pop cultural stereotype but a close personal friend I've known for 20+ years, but whatever.

That's the most lame part of that. I know some people from business world and they always regard sluts (no matter how smart or stylish they are) as sluts. Not as prospective partners if that is what Felicia wants. You cannot expect to exercise influence over somebody whom you are totally submitted to.
In my view influence contains a hefty part of respect. Especially in the business world.

I had a whole thing typed out here, but decided it was more than really needed to be said. Suffice to say Felicia isn't looking for influence over club members, but rather she is seeking influence over the rest of the world through them and through the networking she assumes she will be able to accomplish as a member of the club. Either social favors, access to backroom deals and information not available to the general public, or sure, through blackmail (or at least implied blackmail), if it comes to that. I know you'll disagree with me, but I think this type of networking is still possible, for reasons I'll get into below.

You are not really applying logic. You are mainly applying your own values and deriding Felicia for having ones that differ from yours.

As I said before, this is really the crux of the issue here. You simply cannot comprehend a person who doesn't view even the most debased situation differently from the way you do. And that's fine, but it's getting in the way of your understanding of Felicia's character and goals.

The members of the club aren't all necessarily hung up in the same ways you seem to be. This is a social setting for them, a place to relax. They seek out this kind of entertainment because they're so jaded by the rest of the world that this depravity is the only thing that amuses them anymore. Or, in other cases, they're there aspirationally, hanging to the coattails of the celebrities and rich, sick fucks like Chuck and Samson. These are not normal people with normal values and normal entertainments. They have the world (or at least the city) at their feet. They're decadent Roman Senators, or de Sade's libertines.

Say Felicia wins and becomes a full member of the club. It's possible that the other members wouldn't have any respect for her, as you say. She's embarked on an incredibly risky plan. It's also possible that they can find some level of grudging respect for her single-minded pursuit of her goals. If nothing else, she can simply demand respect by virtue of being an equal member of the club, and knowing all their dirty laundry.

Bottom line: she doesn't care what the club members or anyone else thinks of her, as long as she can get what she wants.

Now. All that having been said, I believe you mentioned in your first post that started off all this discussion that you hadn't gotten all the way through the game yet. Is that still true? Because a ton of Felicia's character and motives come to light much later on, so you're really missing out if you haven't completed the content available.