VN Ren'Py Onhold Penny for Your Thoughts [v1.2.1 Prologue] [Lockheart]

[RolandG.]

I, for one, liked the story of PfYT.

I don't know if anyone has said it already, but in my opinion the problem was having 2 MCs. Games with more than 1 MC seem somewhat difficult to create. You have to try that one does not overshadow the other, for example.

As some have already said, there is not much of a market for games with female protagonists. And the few that there are, consist of making the protagonist a whore who pounces on the first cock she sees.
In my case, I enjoy playing with female protagonists, as long as I have an entirely lesbian route. If not, I don't play it.
First, because of my personal preferences and second, because of what I mentioned above. The kind of games we have with a female lead.

Speaking of the future, I wouldn't see a bad thing that PfYT was exclusively with Penny as the protagonist (with a lesbian route, of course. Heh), and that Cassian has her game apart from her. I have read about the opinion that some have of Cassian, and it seems to be him not much convincing as an MC. But, I think if he had a game where he's just the MC, there would be no problem.

If what you don't like is that he looks more like an assistant to the other MC than a good MC, this would be a good solution. I am absolutely convinced that Lockheart has covered the stories of all the characters that he creates and it shows that he cares for them.

You have described it very well...

The problem is that there seems to be only a small target group for a game with a strong female character.
I haven't really found many good games yet.
Most of the time, when you play a female character, it's all about having as many sexual partners as possible, preferably at the same time.
The story, if there is one, tends to take a back seat.
I would also find a good male sidekick next to Peny ok, but that's probably not enough for most players, if I interpret the posts here correctly...
I think it would be a shame if the game wasn't developed further, or if it adapted.
There are already so many male family returnees who then delight the whole family and neighbourhood with their infinite sexual power.

 

[Maethir]

The issue with the popularity with Penny for your Thoughts, I think, is that most fans of Penny want to see her as a love interest for a male MC, and that is just not the character that you have in mind for her. Fair enough, but that limits you to fans of exclusive FF, which are not that large. I think that also held back support of Avalon, frankly. I didn't especially mind it, but the FF portions of Avalon probably turned off a fair number of your fans.

Of course, it is your game, and you should feel free to tell the story you want to tell, but if you want more support, it helps to cater to tastes that more people have. Of course, you don't want to go 100% in the other direction and make your game derivitive and chiched, otherwise why should anyone play it? For best results it should appeal to at least a large proportion of potential fans, yet have enough unique elements to make it stand out.

Well, for better or worse, male protagonist games appeal to many more people than female protagonist games, even with a fun MC like Penny. I am sure the market for VNs is 90%+ male, and most of us like stories where we can see ourselves in the protagonist, at least tangentially, or at least put ourselves in his position. Female main characters are great in novels and movies, but where it is heavily romance centered form, like AVNs, most guys aren't interested in imagining themselves as female MC, though of course there are exceptions, which don't appeal to me personally, but are quite popular, GGGB, for example.

Similarly to how romance novels, which are almost all female MC (the straight ones), where the market is 90%+ female.

Unfortunately, Lockheart, if you want the most audience and appeal for your games, which are quite unique and have a lot to offer, I would stick with male protagonist games with a good, well involved story.

I'll mention more in your other thread (Petal), but I think that an overarching mystery or conflict in your story will help get support. There is a lot of competition, as you know, and games with something interesting to keep players coming back again and again do best. Think of WTHI, where there is an mystery who is double-crossing the MC, or think of Hillside where the identity of the stalker is unknown. If mysteries aren't your thing, than a exciting self-propelled story, where lots of things are happening toward some grand conclusion, think City of Broken Dreamers.

Just a few thoughts. I truly enjoy your graphical style in all your games, including Penny for your Thoughts, and your ability to make well fleshed out characters, with fun personalities. Your dialog is quite funny too, which I appreciate.

This basically summed up my thoughts and is why i have not played this game yet. I really liked Penny in Avalon and thought she was an interesting character, but if there is to be a game focused around her then i would want it to be as a LI for a male MC. I am not saying this game was automatically a failure because of that as i have not played it, but it did severely dull my excitement for it to learn that she is either the MC (or Co-MC depending on who you ask) and is strictly lesbian. That is just not a character i can really connect with honestly. That said if they want to make a make game focused on that that perfectly fine with me, people should be allowed to create what they want.

 

[Maethir]

Fuck that. Follow your heart, not the masses. When you follow the masses you get things like the marvel movies, overly mediocre, mindless instant gratification shit that you forget the next day. No innovation whatsoever. If you make a female protagonist game, you are already more innovative than 80% of the shit on this site. Don't force yourself trying to make a game you don't enjoy making just to appease everyone.

"Follow your dreams" - Some dog

While i agree with your overall sentiment i think missed the point of what the person was saying. The point they were making was regarding financial success not artistic success. Your example of Marvel is a great one actually, say what you will about their formulaic approach, you cant deny they are wildly financially successful. While they are many, many great innovative and unique films out very few can match the success of the formulaic films that people like. Again this is not saying people should not make those films but they have to be realistic and realize that likely they wont be as financially successful as others.

 

[juan palote]

I, for one, liked the story of PfYT.

I don't know if anyone has said it already, but in my opinion the problem was having 2 MCs. Games with more than 1 MC seem somewhat difficult to create. You have to try that one does not overshadow the other, for example.

As some have already said, there is not much of a market for games with female protagonists. And the few that there are, consist of making the protagonist a whore who pounces on the first cock she sees.
In my case, I enjoy playing with female protagonists, as long as I have an entirely lesbian route. If not, I don't play it.
First, because of my personal preferences and second, because of what I mentioned above. The kind of games we have with a female lead.

Speaking of the future, I wouldn't see a bad thing that PfYT was exclusively with Penny as the protagonist (with a lesbian route, of course. Heh), and that Cassian has her game apart from her. I have read about the opinion that some have of Cassian, and it seems to be him not much convincing as an MC. But, I think if he had a game where he's just the MC, there would be no problem.

If what you don't like is that he looks more like an assistant to the other MC than a good MC, this would be a good solution. I am absolutely convinced that Lockheart has covered the stories of all the characters that he creates and it shows that he cares for them.

I agree.

Either make Penny the MC or Cassian, both are not working, Cassian is clearly not the MC, we can all see that, and therefore its only added to have the tag that would get more traction, but the game suffers because of it.

Either make Penny like Avalon and Petal, which is a game about them but not as MC, or make Penny the MC and forget about male MC and accept the consequences of making a game with only a female protagonist which it seems was Lockheart had in mind when he wrote the story

 

[kuro95zone]

Dont list to much to the people here, the game is yours to make as you want it, go with what you fell i right.
There are plenty of other game here catering to the lowerst denominator aka "Dad died, so you moved in with your mom and sister, giant boobs...."

 

[Kass/\ndra]

Honestly, all of this is such a shame.
It's hard enough to find a game starring a female protagonist that isn't just a stupid whore-out, humiliation, or sexual harassment simulator, let alone one featuring an intriguing story and interesting characters.

I really can't wrap my head around how much flak the developers are getting from some people for trying out new things, or for other unjustified reasons altogether.
Just imagine how boring and interchangeable games and VNs would be if all the developers would take the path of least resistance and wouldn't be releasing anything else beside content catering to what can only be described as the typical (well I might be as a woman a minority around here, but surely I'm not delusional about it) male target audience; but then you also shouldn't be surprised, if all you'll get is one more bland "story" of yet another teenage-looking but hung like a freaking horse guy, whose father recently dropped the spoon, and who now embarks on another enticing journey to somehow fuck all family members who happen to have a vagina.

I'm surely not the only one when I wish the developers nothing but success with their projects and that at some point we could be looking for a continuation of this great game.

 

[juan palote]

Honestly, all of this is such a shame.
It's hard enough to find a game starring a female protagonist that isn't just a stupid whore-out, humiliation, or sexual harassment simulator, let alone one featuring an intriguing story and interesting characters.

I really can't wrap my head around how much flak the developers are getting from some people for trying out new things, or for other unjustified reasons altogether.
Just imagine how boring and interchangeable games and VNs would be if all the developers would take the path of least resistance and wouldn't be releasing anything else beside content catering to what can only be described as the typical (well I might be as a woman a minority around here, but surely I'm not delusional about it) male target audience; but then you also shouldn't be surprised, if all you'll get is one more bland "story" of yet another teenage-looking but hung like a freaking horse guy, whose father recently dropped the spoon, and who now embarks on another enticing journey to somehow fuck all family members who happen to have a vagina.

I'm surely not the only one when I wish the developers nothing but success with their projects and that at some point we could be looking for a continuation of this great game.

Penny isnt really the problem here, Cassian is. If this would be a full Female Protagonist game, then sure the dissapointment some of us already have because we were lied upon when this game was announced and we were told by Lockheart that it wasnt a female protagonist game would still be there, but past that it would have been fine.

The problem here is that the game has Cassian as a supposed male protagonist, when he clearly isnt one, from any point of view, to the point that he asks Penny permission to join her adventures.

There are several solutions to this.

One is to rework the entire game to make Cassian a real protagonist and not just a follower of his brother first and Penny after.

Second one is to remove Cassian, or leave it just as a sidekick like he is now, but not playable, and just remove the Male Protagonist and go clean with the truth that the game is a Female Protagonist game.

Third would be to make Penny like Avalon and Petal, which isnt a playable character but still he focus of the game, and remove the Female Protagonist tag.

Any of those three options are at the very least, more honest than what we have now. I guess they will have to make a decision and thats why it is on hold, but the game wasnt working for the people that dont like Female Protagonist games

 

[kuro95zone]

the entitlement in this thread is better then 90% of the stories in the games here

 

[SaltySugar]

The loud screaming minority of misogynist got it their way.

Does this "loud minority" have any sort of say in the development of this game or something? They didn't need to listen to this "minority" but they couldn't take the heat and that's it. Acting like this is fault of people in a discussion forum on a piracy site doesn't make sense.

Also, you should probably look up what misogyny means.

 

[juan palote]

Does this "loud minority" have any sort of say in the development of this game or something? They didn't need to listen to this "minority" but they couldn't take the heat and that's it. Acting like this is fault of people in a discussion forum on a piracy site doesn't make sense.

Also, you should probably look up what misogyny means.

I cant really understand how saying the Male Protagonist of the game is lame and just an excuse to add the Male Protagonist tag and artificially inflate the target audience is misogyny, but sometimes its better not to discuss with people that just throw words they dont understand to make them look cool

 

[Smarmint]

As always, I think that devs should make the game and the story they want to tell. Unfortunately, if you are doing it at least partially for the money, some stories are more popular than others. Nobody should knock Lockheart for making the story he wants to tell, or accuse him of "lying", just because you didn't like the direction of the game. If he said that there will be a male protagonist, then there you go. Just because you don't like the male protagonist in this game, doesn't negate that he exists.

Feel free to give your opinion, but it is better without insulting the dev that brought us several very good games.

 

[flarigand]

I cant really understand how saying the Male Protagonist of the game is lame and just an excuse to add the Male Protagonist tag and artificially inflate the target audience is misogyny, but sometimes its better not to discuss with people that just throw words they dont understand to make them look cool

You have no idea what the word misogynist means...

 

[arroganz]

Where is this "minority of misogynist" thing coming from?

What do mean with this question?
that was my reaction to posts before.

No related to your question, just another thought. I am member in a lot of forums, but in no other forum my ignore list is as long as here.

 

[Avaron1974]

I just find it all hilarious now.

So Penny, who all throughout Avalon was a lesbian and only ever dated women then gets her own game and some people expected her to turn straight.....

Dev gives the people wanting straight stuff a male MC to play with but that isn't enough so we lose the lot.

It also puts the dev in an awkward position now he's gone this route.

He either completely changes Penny's character to please the people wanting that and lose the fans of hers that play or leave her as is and have a slightly less popular game.

Either way momentum for this has gone. I know i've got no interest in playing a straight Penny anyway.

Anywhoo, my watch list needs a clear out so i'll drop this one. If it ever makes a comeback i'll see what's being said about it then but I won't be holding my breath. It's a damn shame, this started really well. Ah well, you can't win em all.

 

[juan palote]

I just find it all hilarious now.

So Penny, who all throughout Avalon was a lesbian and only ever dated women then gets her own game and some people expected her to turn straight.....

Dev gives the people wanting straight stuff a male MC to play with but that isn't enough so we lose the lot.

It also puts the dev in an awkward position now he's gone this route.

He either completely changes Penny's character to please the people wanting that and lose the fans of hers that play or leave her as is and have a slightly less popular game.

Either way momentum for this has gone. I know i've got no interest in playing a straight Penny anyway.

Anywhoo, my watch list needs a clear out so i'll drop this one. If it ever makes a comeback i'll see what's being said about it then but I won't be holding my breath. It's a damn shame, this started really well. Ah well, you can't win em all.

Yes, if you do half assed things, they usually go wrong, and with half assed things i mean Cassian.

Cassian character is bad, really bad, lets not pretend there is a single reason for him to exist that isnt the male protag tag to circunvent the lower audience female protag games have

If he wanted to make a female protagonist game, then its fine, say it from the beginning (when he announced the game i specifically asked him if it was going to be a female protag game because i didnt like them and his reply was "when did i fail you?"), go the female prtagonist and deal with the lower target audience.

But you cant just throw an awfull Male character just to add a tag and pretend there is nothing wrong with that

Want to make a Female Protag game? Go for it, plenty of Devs do it, just dont try to fool people just to get more audience by throwing Cassian just so you can sidestep the lower audience female protag games have...

 

[Rindarion]

Can anyone explain why the hell this got the onhold tag? Not wanna bitch and whine or anything but it seems like many of the good games takes several months between updates / get slapped with the onhold tag. Is this a trend we should start to get worried about?

 

[Myrabelle]

Can anyone explain why the hell this got the onhold tag? Not wanna bitch and whine or anything but it seems like many of the good games takes several months between updates / get slapped with the onhold tag. Is this a trend we should start to get worried about?

Penny for Your Thoughts was an ambitious project we were excited to undertake but the initial reception of the first two releases was poor. We assumed providing a male and female protagonist would give players the opportunity to experience the story from two unique perspectives but it seems instead we've pushed away fans of both female protagonists and male protagonists.

We've decided to allocate our time and resources to A Petal Among Thorns while we decide on the future of Penny and Cassian. We're sure sorry if we've disappointed you, Rindarion. Penny's game would have taken years to complete and we weren't confident it would do well enough to justify the commitment.

 

[Rindarion]

Penny for Your Thoughts was an ambitious project we were excited to undertake but the initial reception of the first two releases was poor. We assumed providing a male and female protagonist would give players the opportunity to experience the story from two unique perspectives but it seems instead we've pushed away fans of both female protagonists and male protagonists.

We've decided to allocate our time and resources to A Petal Among Thorns while we decide on the future of Penny and Cassian. We're sure sorry if we've disappointed you, Rindarion. Penny's game would have taken years to complete and we weren't confident it would do well enough to justify the commitment.

"We assumed providing a male and female protagonist would give players the opportunity to experience the story from two unique perspectives but it seems instead we've pushed away fans of both female protagonists and male protagonists." So instead of just tell one of those groups of fans to just fuck off, you decide to just scrap the whole thing? If you bend to the will of ALL of your fans/backers you might as well flush "A Petal Among Thorns" down the toilet right now since you will sure as hell get a bunch of people bitching about that game too.

 

[Smarmint]

"We assumed providing a male and female protagonist would give players the opportunity to experience the story from two unique perspectives but it seems instead we've pushed away fans of both female protagonists and male protagonists." So instead of just tell one of those groups of fans to just fuck off, you decide to just scrap the whole thing? If you bend to the will of ALL of your fans/backers you might as well flush "A Petal Among Thorns" down the toilet right now since you will sure as hell get a bunch of people bitching about that game too.

I think you are being a little unfair here. I don't get the sense that PFYT was put on hold because some vocal users complained. Lots of other users around here liked it, so I think the comments were faily balanced. I think this game was just not getting the kind of patron support that the dev wanted. Whether tweaking the story, or whether more support would be forthcoming if he continues with the story, who knows. But I think he decided to make a more traditional male-protagonist, sort of like the setup for Avalon, but with a different story and characters, and see how that turns out.

You are correct, of course, that no matter what a dev does, he will never make everyone happy. The best bet is to have a vision for the story you want to tell and just go with it. But ultimately, it takes a lot of time and effort to make a VN, so it helps to feel that there is a good fanbase to support the dev as he works on it.

 

[bacienvu88]

Penny for Your Thoughts was an ambitious project we were excited to undertake but the initial reception of the first two releases was poor. We assumed providing a male and female protagonist would give players the opportunity to experience the story from two unique perspectives but it seems instead we've pushed away fans of both female protagonists and male protagonists.

We've decided to allocate our time and resources to A Petal Among Thorns while we decide on the future of Penny and Cassian. We're sure sorry if we've disappointed you, Rindarion. Penny's game would have taken years to complete and we weren't confident it would do well enough to justify the commitment.

I really liked the game (and am currently playing Avalon as well). I love all the characters and the story. I also think Cassians scenes are really great, it is just that they didn't contribute to the main story. The main story was entirely about Penny, so Cassian PoV felt out of place.

With that in mind, the way I would choose to continue this is to have standalone episodes with each episode having a different MC. Then combine that with an overall arc which concludes in a season finale. So we would have prologue be as now with Penny as main MC, then perhaps an episode from Cassian's point of view, then something with someone else as MC (Una, Lena, Teresa, someone new entirely), etc. This is of course only a suggestion from my side, it is not my story to tell.