the dev was greedy..he couldn't make money so he stoppedWhy did this get abandoned? This was really GOOD!!
- Thread starter Darth Bane
- Start date
- Sep 26, 2016
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Maybe in the promo of dev's third project (after this eventually gets abandoned too), they will try more forceful methods. Maybe threatening anyone who dare not to Patreon their masterpiece with physical violence would be more successful. I mean the tone of this is not that far.
I can't decide if it's someone really clueless about crowdfunded game development, or someone who knows it too well and how easy it is to earn from it, without actually delivering anything.
- Oct 19, 2017
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Its so unfortunate to see another dev go down this road, this is going to scar his reputation for years to come as the dev that abandons a game because he wasn't getting the amount he wanted, I bet the same will happen with the second game, gets a few updates, not getting enough patrons, abandons the game and the cycle continues, gonna piss off his left over supporters that's for sure.
- May 27, 2017
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Honestly if a Dev abandons a game I probably won't support their future projects. If they are willing to just toss one then how can they be trusted not to do the same again?
- May 11, 2017
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Sadly this is a bit of a common thing among some players it's one more excuse. Imagine using this logic elsewhere:
"I would never date a person who has broken up with someone."
"I would never hire a person who has quit a job."
"I would not support a big business that has ever closed a store."
"I would not support a small business if the owner of it ever had a previous unsuccessful business that closed."
Sometimes it makes the most sense to not throw good money after bad. That can be said of a developer stopping development of a doomed game, or of a potential donor not donating to a dev that has a history of abandonment.
Sometimes previous "abandoned projects" were for practice. Should new developers not share their work in case they decide to make a better game after they learn what they are doing in fear of not getting support?
Sometimes circumstances come up causing a person to need to stop a project.
There is a difference in 1 abandoned project and a long string of them. If someone has like 4 or 5 abandoned projects I can see not being on board for project 6. Not enough data points to establish a pattern with just a single abandonment.
It would make the most sense to support games you like if you can.
Building a game is a massive sacrifice in time, money, mental energy, research, social life ect. Making a game like primal instinct is a great effort. It's sad that the guy gets shit on because he did what was best for him.
So many sacrafices go in to making a game... Any time a game is abandoned I can 100% guarentee you the person most upset about is is the dev. It meant more to them than it did to even the most die hard fans.
Just read the backstory of why the game was abandoned: a real pity indeed!
I decided to give the game a try anyway, and I kinda liked it: too bad we'll never get more from Lawan than the few teasers he put in there
I decided to give the game a try anyway, and I kinda liked it: too bad we'll never get more from Lawan than the few teasers he put in there
- Jul 29, 2017
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That's all nice but not applicable to this particular dev.
And he gets shit on because he did not do what was best for him, has a massive ego and only cares about the money but has no clue how to get it.
- May 27, 2017
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That's twenty pounds of false equivalence in a five bag.
- Oct 22, 2017
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I am simply speechless. I mean, I can understand that as a dev you should at least get some appreciation for your time invested, even better if you can afford new hardware to accelerate your progress.
But such a brazen demand at the beginning is just ridiculous. I think as a dev you have to earn the respect of the players first and then the support will come on its own, depending on the quality of the game.
- Jul 29, 2017
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Yep abandoned the first game due to perceived lack of support proceeds to make stupid demands for his second game otherwise it will be abandoned, dude has no idea what he's doing.
- May 11, 2017
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Making a game is not free. If you ever create a game here is what you will find out.
1) You must invest time. I'm not talking an hour here or there. It's not like learning to play the guitar where an hour a night would cut it. I'm talking a similar amount of time that would be invested in a part time or full time job. It is a major time thief. Going to flip burgers would be more profitable for the vast majority of developers. This is time that could be spent making money, socializing, sleeping, working out, getting an education, with a romantic interest, or just chilling out watching netflix. Your buddy says, "Hey man I got this girl I want you to meet. Come join us up at the bar this Friday alright?" "Sorry bro I am working on my project." "Again man? Alright whatever..." Eventually your buddies stop asking you to come out.
2) For most developers it's not something that could be put on a resume, or that they would share with family and friends. It will largely be a private personal endeavor for many. Some developers do it alone, others do it in a team. Each has it's own benefits and drawbacks. If you work on a 2 man team and disagree about something oh that's fun... You gotta find someone with the skill sets you need from them and you can get along with. I'm lucky I found sim me and him are a good team. We can have an argument about something then be cool by the next day we come to some compromise.
3) It requires a large and diverse skill set. Writing, visual art, and coding are the main three skills needed, but other skills are needed too. One that is not so much on the surface is "Marketing" that is definitely silk & milk's weakness. He was too honest and it was off putting to a lot of people. He was like a year and a half in only making about 400 bucks a month. I have seen a number of games making more than that on first month. If he would have just kept his mouth shut about it he would be making more than that by now, but probably not the 2,000 that was his goal.
4) It's not inexpensive. You need top end render machine, and to be ready for that electric bill to shoot through the roof if you are a rendering much. Oh you wanted assets to render too huh? Those are also not free and add to the bill.
So there goes a lot of money, time, and effort. So you release then what?
A hand full of games hit a few hundred dollars right away... Many get paid very little at the start and for an extended period of time. He did make a loss making this game. Doing the math on the assets, and electricity for the renders alone it's a loss not to mention the time.
On the one hand I clap for the dude like "Yea you tell em how it is!" because he isn't a liar. The man does speak the truth. The problem is that his protest comes off as selfish to a lot of people don't realize the full sitaution. He gave a lot of us this game for free and at a cost in the hopes of it eventually breaking even or making a profit. I haven't made a dime yet but we are still going strong for now for as long as we can on Damaged Goods
To me what he did is a million times better than any developer that just ghosts the abandonment. He has made himself a cautionary tail that others can learn from. The ghosters are just Poof... gone... goodbye without even saying goodbye. Then you get the conspiracy theorists running around like "He died... No he is just sick, his mom's hurt, he is moving, he went homeless for a minute it's gonna be alright he is coming back... He will be back one day!" A thousand questions with 0 answers.
As a developer you should never ever hold your game hostage. It's a bad move that is almost guaranteed to cost you money.
What better move did the guy have? Lets see... were I to find myself in the same predicament this may be how it goes.
What he should have done is gone to the developers forum here, and put out a thread something like "I'm not making enough money to continue making my game. Can you all help me analyze what I'm doing wrong here?" Get some feedback there away from the public eye. Then some other dev comes along. "Yea man I'm having a similar issue. Wanna do a cross promotion?" Yea sure. Then they both promote each others games make a tiny bit more money. Go back to the thread... Some other dev is like "I looked at your patreon rewards. Why don't you offer them X?" Oh so adds "X" to his patreon rewards. I couple more folks buy in. Some mod comes in to his thread and is like "We got render service here... may be a little bit of a wait but can cut costs." Another mod comes along but lurks, however the mod takes note of this voting for his game to be on the featured games list. Being on there helps him make even more money... Problem eventually gets solved.
Instead he was like, "Listen up, pay me or I aint making shit..." and money started going down as I'd expect it to do.
I know he fucked up, and I see why he lost a lot of his support, but I feel bad for the dude. Maybe he is autistic or something and just didn't know? I'd like to see what would happen if one month he just started making like $1-2,000 all of the sudden I want to see if he would actually deliver something great.
It's pretty simple actually. Be a better person, don't hold the game hostage, don't think that you're god's gift to game developers, and oh try to actually engage and promote your game. Developers might not like sites like this but it is crucial and an almost necessity for developers. If you want support you go to f95, you engage with the fanbase, and you try to promote your game. Silk and Milk didn't do any of that, not even on his discord.
I supported his game for several months at the $50 level to try to get him over that threshold and you want to know how many times he posted on f95? Zero! The only time he ever posted on Discord was to tell us there was a new post on Patreon which we all get e-mailed about anyway. He never engaged even the people who supported him. I'm not sure if I've seen a worse developer when it comes to the marketing side. His game was good, was one of my top 10 on this site, but even if his second game has an update (he's going on almost 3 months and he hasn't even gotten 50% finished since there's not enough support in his mind) I won't support or play it. I know that in the end, he'll abandon it because the support isn't good enough in his eyes.
What happens if he ever reaches his goal of $1-$2k? He'll probably just up it to $5k. Bad dev has a bad attitude and expects us to support him.
- Jul 29, 2017
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U said what i was trying and failing to say for the past 20 minutes, thanks.
- May 11, 2017
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You have a very solid point. When he lost your support he lost 1/8 of his games peak earnings. When I was like 7 I loved to eat pickles. I'm over at my grandmas house one day and she opens a pickle jar and holds it out for me saying "Go ahead take as many as you want." So I reach my hand in there and grab as many as I could. My hand got stuck in the pickle jar. That day I learned to be more patient and do things 1 step at a time. His grandma never had a pickle jar. This game became his pickle jar.
It's back to my previous point though of him not having marketing skills. You enjoyed the game, and so did I. You wouldn't have been paying him 50 bucks if you didn't like it. You are absolutely spot in with your assessment that he needed to engage with the people more.
You are also on point about his next project most likely having a grim future ahead of it no matter how good it is because of his stance and history. It is almost certain to fail unless it has a miracle. You are on point about his attitude.
He had good code, good writing, good visual art. If he was like me in the forums (a forum whore) this game would still be under development and he would be making a lot more money than he is now. His problem was poor marketing skills that lead to bad luck on gaining support that lead to a bad attitude that lead to the abandonment of the game which will ultimately lead to more bad luck in the future unless a miracle happens to help him.
As for devs bumping that goal post after reaching the last goal... Yea we all do that to some degree. Every developer does that 100% at least to a certain point. However the most critical goals are the earliest goals. Dark cookie jumping from 25k to 30k is no where near as important for the sustainability of the game as him hitting his first 0 to 3k goal. Hiring a 4th artist is not as important as It's like Maslow's heirarchy of needs.
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He should have come in here and talked more about his future plans for the game, and dropped a few hints about his masolows hierarchy of needs pyramid on how his budget is a bit tight right now.
Instead he was a bit of an isolationist and didn't sell his game well enough, seeming too urgent and came across as another thing of a similar shape...
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That's when it started going downhill. Ultimately we don't know how dire his needs were. Does he have a mountain of debt getting evicted ect? or is he some spoiled rich kid that just wants what he wants when he wants it? We don't know because he never communicated that.
I can empathize with the guy to some degree because I can see the big picture. We are making about $58 a month right now on patreon and we are spending about $7-800 each and every month on development. Month after month. Until we are past about $1,000 it's going to be financially feeling... not good. It'll be nice when the game pays us and not the other way around. I would assume his game was also expensive to make due to his render quality. This doesn't even factor in time just money.
Every word you speak here is pretty spot on I'm just trying to expand your view a little.
I enjoy the dialogue and the different point of view. I'm just a consumer so it's really nice to see the in and outs from a developer. I just supported your game, hopefully it will take off as well and you'll no longer bleed money.
- Jul 29, 2017
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Was this whole exchange over the last hours a elaborate marketing scheme?
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- May 11, 2017
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