VN Ren'Py Project Myriam - Life and Explorations [Ch. 5.04a] [Zorlun]

[TomUK]

The absurd notion that having sex with someone who is in any way under your authority is an act of rape is not codified in the law in any legal jurisdiction of which I'm aware. Insofar as I have seen, the argument is entirely based on the proposition that the disparity of authority removes the possibility of meaningful consent, which is ridiculous on the face of it, in most situations. There could be some outlying scenarios in which this proposition would hold up to scrutiny in a court of law, but I'm convinced that they would be the vast minority of cases.

The idea that having sex with someone under your authority is rape is a notion which is chiefly advanced in universities, high schools, and corporations, and is pushed as an ethical standard. It has gained a lot of traction in those places, and some traction among the general populace, but is far from being universally accepted in popular opinion, and I would guess that it's not even a majority opinion. It certainly isn't law in most places.

Well, I think we can agree to disagree with each other. We see all the time teachers getting imprisoned for having sex with a student under their authority, I mean even in America they have Statutory Rape Laws which basically says a 21+ year old can be tried for that if they have sex with someone under the age of 21 with or without consent, other countries that age limit is set at a lower age. But in the western world it is seen as an abuse of power for someone who has authority over someone to have sex with them, doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is, that is the law of most lands. In corporations it is frowned upon or against company policy, but not illegal unless of course you are forcing someone to have sex with you against their will by implying they could lose their job which then would be rape.

 

[Zorlun]

you know when latest updates will be available for free? and if they will be on here?

thank you so much !

The latest version is already on F95zone, next update will be in a few weeks.

 

[xapican]

Yeah, but Myriams dad owns the company, so she would be the one inheriting it in the will, not that asshole

Exactly, In my fantasie, Myriams dad cares about Marc and wanting to do him good he put it in his testament Or even Myram sugested it to him, to ensure that he can atend college, Narcisitic AHole (Anthony) learns somehow about it and develops a plot to get a hold on the company, yes im aware that that involves this character i wan't to get rid of (Anthony) but also if Myriam wins she could throw him out of her life for good. and deal with this other manipulative Asshole (Anthonys coworker, that one she blew on the toilet)

 

[Kassan06969]

The absurd notion that having sex with someone who is in any way under your authority is an act of rape is not codified in the law in any legal jurisdiction of which I'm aware. Insofar as I have seen, the argument is entirely based on the proposition that the disparity of authority removes the possibility of meaningful consent, which is ridiculous on the face of it, in most situations. There could be some outlying scenarios in which this proposition would hold up to scrutiny in a court of law, but I'm convinced that they would be the vast minority of cases.

The idea that having sex with someone under your authority is rape is a notion which is chiefly advanced in universities, high schools, and corporations, and is pushed as an ethical standard. It has gained a lot of traction in those places, and some traction among the general populace, but is far from being universally accepted in popular opinion, and I would guess that it's not even a majority opinion. It certainly isn't law in most places.

In Pennsylvania it is. Besides teachers, anyone who works in a prison. A 21 year old woman working in a prison who has sex with a 45 year old male prisoner could be charged with institutional sexual assault. Doesn't apply to college professors or bosses though.

 

[incest lover m/s]

Before Patreon stuck their nose in, I'm fairly certain that Myriam and Anthony were married and they both brought children in to the marriage, so we knew from the start that Katherine was Myriam's daughter and Marc was Anthony's son.

Now of course we have another dilemma because of the story change to please Patreon by making Myriam and Anthony not married so that Myriam can fuck Marc as they aren't then related by blood or marriage, but there are a few problems with the new storyline, I don't think there is a court anywhere on this planet that would give custody of Marc to someone that isn't a blood relative or a relative via marriage unless their is no one else related to Marc and his father is sent to prison. If all that is done to make Marc Myriam's ward of court, then that would open up a totally new set of problems that Myriam would essentially be raping Marc based on the fact that she is in a position of authority over Marc.

So like I mentioned earlier, when it comes to incest in these games it must be easier to just allow the 'player' the option of choosing the relationships between the characters at the start of the game.

this measure would solve everything, I love this game but every update that comes out I have to wait almost a month to play due to the patch update delay

 

[osservatore17]

The latest version is already on F95zone, next update will be in a few weeks.

oh ok great game... i will wait for updates

 

[Zorlun]

this measure would solve everything, I love this game but every update that comes out I have to wait almost a month to play due to the patch update delay

No, people already offered that solution before, and I refused, it takes as a premise that whatever you chose at the start, that the story won't change, but in my case it does, Myriam will not have the same relationship with Marc if he's her son, step son or the neighbor, so for me it's at the same level of "landlady" solution.
I'm not going to say that Project Myriam story is award worthy, I purposefully went simple on this first game to focus on learning the technical aspect of development, but still, it doesn't mean that I don't care either about what I write, and if I had created multiple possibilities of relation from start in the family dynamic it means that I would have to create different events depending on the choices, and as the game grew it would have only kept growing exponentially, if it was a solution, it was a time consuming one that I didn't chose to take, and preferred for simplicity chose to rewrite the family dynamic to avoid trouble, but with which I could keep working and get funded.
I won't argue that it was the coward way facing Patreon's censure, not proud of it myself as censorship is a thing I despise, but it's easy to judge when it's not your livelihood that is on the brink of extinction.

I don't mean to be salty with my answer, I'm just trying to explain the way I went about my choice of writing after Patreon's hammer fell on my balls. ^^
And I'm not judging either the choice made by other authors, we all have our own vision and I'll never say that mine is the only right one, it was just in my eyes the best course of action if I wanted to keep going at the moment.

 

[TheLecher]

Well, I think we can agree to disagree with each other.

We can agree that it isn't necessary for us to agree about matters of opinion. If I think that Fetish A is disgusting, and you that Fetish A is great, this is a difference of opinion, and we can agree to disagree. But questions of fact are not matters of opinion. So, for example, when you say the following...

But in the western world it is seen as an abuse of power for someone who has authority over someone to have sex with them, doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is, that is the law of most lands.

This is a question of fact. Is it a fact that, in the Western world, it is seen as an abuse of power for someone in a position of authority to have sex with someone under their authority? No, that is not a fact. I am in the Western world, and I don't see it as (necessarily) an abuse of power. It could be in some circumstances, but it isn't in most circumstances. And I've seen this argument take place many times, both online and IRL, and I know that the public opinion on this is not uniform. It is not universally accepted that this is abuse of power. And, from what I've seen, heard, and read, I'm inclined to believe that it isn't even the majority opinion. So it's not factually correct to say that this is how it is in the Western world. It would be factually correct to say that this is a topic which is under debate in the Western world.

As for it being the law of most lands, that is factually false. It is not the law in most lands that people in positions of authority commit rape by having sex with people under their authority.

In the UK, I know that the Sexual Offences Act of 2003 made it illegal for teachers to have sex with students, but the grounds given in the statue weren't an imbalance of authority, but rather a "position of trust." Also, I have read a couple of different legal interpretations of that law. One claimed that it applied to any teacher and student, regardless of age, and the other legal interpretation stated that it only applied when the student was under 18. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't live in the UK, so I'm not going to pick a side there.

We see all the time teachers getting imprisoned for having sex with a student under their authority, I mean even in America they have Statutory Rape Laws which basically says a 21+ year old can be tried for that if they have sex with someone under the age of 21 with or without consent, other countries that age limit is set at a lower age.

This is also factually incorrect. Yes, we do see teachers getting imprisoned for having sex with students, but in nearly all cases, it's because of the student's age. In many US states, anyone over the age of 21 can't legally have sex with anyone under the age of 18. There are some US states, however, where it is legal, as long as the younger partner is at least 16, which is the youngest age of consent in any US state. So a 30 year old teacher having sex with a 17 year old student is committing statutory rape, not because they are in a position of authority, but because of the ages of the people involved. It would be just as illegal for two complete strangers, who had no imbalance of authority, to have sex, if they were the same ages.

In Pennsylvania it is. Besides teachers, anyone who works in a prison. A 21 year old woman working in a prison who has sex with a 45 year old male prisoner could be charged with institutional sexual assault. Doesn't apply to college professors or bosses though.

Cases of guards (or the warden) and prisoners would be one of the "outlying scenarios" which I mentioned. I said...

There could be some outlying scenarios in which this proposition would hold up to scrutiny in a court of law, but I'm convinced that they would be the vast minority of cases.

And cases of prisoners having sex with guards, while not by any means uncommon, are most definitely the vast minority of cases.

As for Pennsylvania having a law which says that high school (and below) teachers cannot have sex with any student, regardless of age, that's true. The state of Michigan also has such a law. But here's the thing about that - the Supreme Court of the state of Georgia ruled in 2019 that the state's minimum age of consent (16 in Georgia) was a valid defense against charges of criminal sexual conduct, if there was consent in the case, and this was specifically addressing a case of sex between a teacher and a student. The age of consent is also 16 in both Michigan and Pennsylvania, so there's a pretty good chance that these state laws could be thrown out by the Supreme Courts of these two states, if a challenge to those laws ever comes before those courts.

Edit - Count down to all of these posts being deleted for being "off topic", despite the fact that we're discussing the legality of a relationship in this game.

 

[Snugglepuff]

Edit - Count down to all of these posts being deleted for being "off topic", despite the fact that we're discussing the legality of a relationship in this game.

In all fairness, the legality of the relationship itself is entirely irrelevant to the discussion being off topic though.

This is (basically) a porn game with multiple kinks available to pursue/explore, all with what in the real world are ethically or legally questionable. That's part of the allure. That it and its characters are entirely a work of fiction means that there's very, very little use for bringing/applying real world legalities into discussion of the game/characters, particularly when it goes off into tangents about the real world.

 

[TheLecher]

In all fairness, the legality of the relationship itself is entirely irrelevant to the discussion being off topic though.

This is (basically) a porn game with multiple kinks available to pursue/explore, all with what in the real world are ethically or legally questionable. That's part of the allure. That it and its characters are entirely a work of fiction means that there's very, very little use for bringing/applying real world legalities into discussion of the game/characters, particularly when it goes off into tangents about the real world.

No one was making an argument that the game should only showcase relationships or activities which would be legal in reality. Fiction is fiction, and reality is reality. I would hope that everyone here would know that. But conversations about the legality of relationships in the game, if they were in the real world instead, is still "on topic". That's my contention, at least. But I may have a more expansive view of what is "on topic" than a lot of other people do.

 

[Zorlun]

No one was making an argument that the game should only showcase relationships or activities which would be legal in reality. Fiction is fiction, and reality is reality. I would hope that everyone here would know that. But conversations about the legality of relationships in the game, if they were in the real world instead, is still "on topic". That's my contention, at least. But I may have a more expansive view of what is "on topic" than a lot of other people do.

On topic or not, as you say this is fantasy, I know the story has a more or less "realistic" setting, but still it's just a fantasy world, I'm not trying to write the game to the letter of the law. And when it comes to Patreon's ball busting, it's irrelevant as long as anyway they have the power to go nuclear if they wish, things being legal or not.
All that to say as I often do when it goes too serious on the reality of things in the game, it's just a game, no need to take too seriously what's in it and certainly no need to fight over it. ^^

 

[Snugglepuff]

No one was making an argument that the game should only showcase relationships or activities which would be legal in reality.

Didn't say anyone did.

Fiction is fiction, and reality is reality. I would hope that everyone here would know that.

Tell that to all the guys getting butt-hurt over the fictional hotties having sexual relations with fictional men that aren't "them".

Joking aside, the discussion was off topic (like our little back & forth) not just because of talking about fictional things and applying the real world to them, but it was focusing mainly on whether or not something in the real world is illegal... Which has no bearing on the game outside of certain things that Patreon/Pay Pal are being puritanical dicks about.

But conversations about the legality of relationships in the game, if they were in the real world instead, is still "on topic".

Not really.
Yes, in so far as it keeps being related to those characters and the game, but no when it (inevitably) focuses on the real world aspect and the game-related part has become nothing more than an inconsequential detail.

That's my contention, at least. But I may have a more expansive view of what is "on topic" than a lot of other people do.

Honestly it really only becomes an issue when it goes on for more than a couple of posts each, and particularly when the posts are getting longer, and longer as each part being addressed leads to increasingly larger passages of examination/explanation.

Ultimately, it falls to the moderator taking action to decide what is and isn't on topic. Even when they do indeed decide that a few people's large and verbose posts are almost exclusively about the game/characters and relationships within the game... Seen that happen way too many times.

In all likelihood, posts after TomUK's initial post that you replied to that are between you two will either "mysteriously vanish" or be deleted for being off topic.
The same goes for the couple we've done.

 

[xapican]

I didn't feel they were fighting, and for me was it very Interesting, to read both of them thank's for sharing your points of view, I think it is more or less a cultural and social aspect, that was Backed up by law would be intersting to hear from some one who comes from a less conservative culture and society as the US and the British

 

[TheLecher]

Not really.
Yes, in so far as it keeps being related to those characters and the game, but no when it (inevitably) focuses on the real world aspect and the game-related part has become nothing more than an inconsequential detail.

That depends on what the topic of the thread is. You are arguing from the position that any discussion which is not directly about the game is "off topic." I am arguing from the position that discussions which are directly about the game and which arise from the game are "on topic." For example, I argue that, when a discussion about Patreon censoring developers arises out of a discussion about changes made to the game, then the conversation about Patreon is on topic for the thread.

This is not a question of fact. It's a question of opinion. Unfortunately, the question will be arbitrarily decided by a third party who will exercise their own discretion, instead of referring to a clearly defined rule.

Ultimately, it falls to the moderator taking action to decide what is and isn't on topic.

Yep. That's what I'm saying. It's not a question of fact. It's a question of opinion.

When you say that my post was "not really" on topic, that's your opinion. When I say that it was on topic, that's my opinion. And when a moderator does eventually delete this post and the others in the chain, it will be because of his or her opinion.

I didn't feel they were fighting, and for me was it very Interesting, to read both of them thank's for sharing your points of view

You're welcome.

 

[Snugglepuff]

That depends on what the topic of the thread is. You are arguing from the position that any discussion which is not directly about the game is "off topic."

Nope.

I am arguing from the position that discussions which are directly about the game and which arise from the game are "on topic."

That's literally the definition of on topic.

For example, I argue that, when a discussion about Patreon censoring developers arises out of a discussion about changes made to the game, then the conversation about Patreon is on topic for the thread.

That's not a "discussion" though. That's making comments about it.
If it turns into an actual discussion - talking about Patreon/PayPal censorship - then it's off topic.

Unfortunately, the question will be arbitrarily decided by a third party who will exercise their own discretion, instead of referring to a clearly defined rule.

I wouldn't mind so much if when it happened, they exercised their discression and authority in a responsible manner.

When you say that my post was "not really" on topic, that's your opinion.

I explained what I said, and when/why something is off topic... I've done it again above. Maybe you'll get the idea a second time with different wording.

When I say that it was on topic, that's my opinion.

An opinion based on a convenient over-simplification of what you believe constitutes being on topic... Which is a mistaken opinion.

And when a moderator does eventually delete this post and the others in the chain, it will be because of his or her opinion.

Well this isn't on topic in the slightest, so your opinion is factually wrong.

I didn't feel they were fighting

Never said they were. Nothing I wrote indicated that I thought they were either.

The word argument has different meaning depending on context. In discussion and debate, people can "make an argument" - they express disagreement with something said - but they are not arguing like people shouting/verbally fighting with each other.

 

[Kassan06969]

Fuck Patreon. I wish everyone would go to one of the less uptight ones until they either changed or went out of business. Same with like Facebook and Twitter - someone would make one of each that didn't rely on algorithms that get everything wrong and weren't so extreme anti-free speech, while still not allowing dangerous misinformation or hate speech. And it would bury them. Subscribestar et al don't seem to make the money they do, so creators have to either have others make patches (or make them themselves under a different name for here or elsewhere) to keep Patreon from clutching their pearls and suspending or banning them. This game is great as is, but it sucks it can't be done how the dev wants.

 

[incest lover m/s]

No, people already offered that solution before, and I refused, it takes as a premise that whatever you chose at the start, that the story won't change, but in my case it does, Myriam will not have the same relationship with Marc if he's her son, step son or the neighbor, so for me it's at the same level of "landlady" solution.
I'm not going to say that Project Myriam story is award worthy, I purposefully went simple on this first game to focus on learning the technical aspect of development, but still, it doesn't mean that I don't care either about what I write, and if I had created multiple possibilities of relation from start in the family dynamic it means that I would have to create different events depending on the choices, and as the game grew it would have only kept growing exponentially, if it was a solution, it was a time consuming one that I didn't chose to take, and preferred for simplicity chose to rewrite the family dynamic to avoid trouble, but with which I could keep working and get funded.
I won't argue that it was the coward way facing Patreon's censure, not proud of it myself as censorship is a thing I despise, but it's easy to judge when it's not your livelihood that is on the brink of extinction.

I don't mean to be salty with my answer, I'm just trying to explain the way I went about my choice of writing after Patreon's hammer fell on my balls. ^^
And I'm not judging either the choice made by other authors, we all have our own vision and I'll never say that mine is the only right one, it was just in my eyes the best course of action if I wanted to keep going at the moment.

I understand your point of view, but we are the ones who suffer the most from all this, lovers of incest games, but since there is no other way, I will continue to wait, but I fear that the day will come when not even a game is rewritten to please the patreon like yours will go more through their rigidity

 

[Snugglepuff]

I understand your point of view, but we are the ones who suffer the most from all this, lovers of incest games

There are loads of incest themed games available here. Play them.

Your "suffering" is nothing more than irrelevant selfishness because you want the dev to change the game to suit you.

I wouldn't be surprised if one day Patreon tries to do what Onlyfans tried and ban adult stuff altogether. Not sure if their bottom line would be affected to the point they had to change their mind. How much there IS adult?

Probably more than enough that outright banning it would hurt them financially.
Patreon was more than happy to have pornographic material available through them. PayPal and other payment processors are the reason behind Patreon cracking down.

 

[Kassan06969]

I wouldn't be surprised if one day Patreon tries to do what Onlyfans tried and ban adult stuff altogether. Not sure if their bottom line would be affected to the point they had to change their mind. How much there IS adult?

 

[Kassan06969]

There are loads of incest themed games available here. Play them.

Your "suffering" is nothing more than irrelevant selfishness because you want the dev to change the game to suit you.

He wanted it that way, had to change to suit the people on the Commission for the Promotion of Vice at Patreon.