Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

the majority would either stay because it's their kink—and, thus, not a shocking twist but a gift—

It certainly seems to be the case here. I haven't seen a single person on the Discord wonder what this revelation means, given the incessant incest discourse in earlier chapters and Rockford's own sermon at that girl's trial. On the contrary, the vast majority reacted along the lines of "hehehe, sister sex " and the dev was very much onboard with it.

 

[yossa999]

I've been thinking about this incest thing lately because every time I see an incest-tagged game I cringe and think, "Oh, no! Another incest game in 2025!" (Or earlier because I already started to feel like this sometime between 2023 and 2024.) I'm not a moralist, so this is not the issue. When I started playing AVNs, I approached the incest genre with an open mind. There are some of these games I like because they integrate the theme into their plots and make something good out of it (usually, something funny). There are also others that could do without it but have nice stories, so I like them despite the incest. Nowadays, however, I only see repetitions of the same themes, nothing new on the table, and a series of clichés that only serve as fanservice.

About your post, specifically, I think those things work in the non-AVN world (see, for instance, the amazing movie Oldboy, and, way earlier, the classic Oedipus Rex). In the AVN universe, however, I think most people play/read those games/stories to have a good time and enjoy themselves (I'm not saying they are stupid... it's fair to have hobbies to relax the mind, and I believe that despite this, they or, at least, some of them may have more intellectual interests in other areas); and I'm saying this because I believe that here, in the AVN world, those who enjoy those shocking twists that could spoil their fun are probably a minority. I would like it because I like to see the world burn (figuratively, of course), but the majority would either stay because it's their kink—and, thus, not a shocking twist but a gift— or would be driven away because it's not their kink, and they've been put off by the twist.

For instance, in my previous post—which was supposed to be more of a joke than something serious—, the scene works great in a movie, but, if it was here, I don't doubt a pitchfork mob would be formed asking for the dev's head (of course, there would be those who would like it, but they would probably be playing games that tells them in advance what to expect). Thus, since those who would like those twists qua twist are not there for the sex, maybe this would work better in a non-"adult" VN (i.e., without explicit sex).

Well... These are just my impressions. Of course, it's all open to debate and, in fact, I would welcome it.

Heh, the thing is, I don't really see the point in discussing this because I agree with almost everything.

You see, the problem is that I've always interpreted the concept of adult visual novels as something more than just porn. I thought it included all the topics that would fall under the age restrictions of mainstream media, like depression and suicidal characters, heavy drug addiction, violence, etc.

But in the latest additions to the rules, the administration clearly explained that by adult they mean sex and everything connected with it. Therefore, it is now forbidden to post games on the site that are completely devoid of sexual themes. So now, when they tell me "If you want a good story, go read a book" - I reply "okay" with the sad voice and go read the book.

But you see, the fact that most people are just looking for porn plots with their favorite fetishes in AVNs doesn't mean that games with a deep and serious plot have no right to exist. And I apologize if I sound arrogant, but I don't care about other people's preferences. Let them take care of their own needs, and I will play and discuss the games that I like.

And this thread seems to me to be a place where most of the participants share my interest in story-driven games and where I enjoy reading reviews and feedback on such a games. Besides, I'm a curious guy and I'm quite happy with a reasonable mixture of porn logic and a serious plot. I think I'm in the minority on this thread, because I get the impression that most of the regulars on this thread tend to avoid games with any hint of porn logic in the plot, they just don't like it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing or arguing with this in any way. But it seems to me that their problem with LDNA is not the twist but the incest, although imho it in no way puts LDNA on the same level as those games where the plot is based on incest and follows exclusively porn logic in order to satisfy the fans of this fetish. However, I’m repeating myself and there’s nothing to add here, we just have different opinions.

At least, it is unlikely that anyone will deny that such a twist is on par in its shocking effect to one famous fire in which a girl died.

 

[camube]

ever since the malware bullshit that has been happening (context for those who doesn't know) https://f95zone.to/threads/recent-malware-infected-games.207437/ i never download from f95zone anymore. i just use this forum for searching purposes cuz devs promotes their games here and then download directly from the devs patreon page

on itchio at the moment there's a game bundle for 70+ games that cost $8

You must be registered to see the links

i just bought them just in case off of the 70 games, there are a couple i want to try later on. I want to play sicae one day but other than that idk what games are in the bundle, lol

check it out! cuz i think some of you here are patrons

 

[realjitter]

But in the latest additions to the rules, the administration clearly explained that by adult they mean sex and everything connected with it. Therefore, it is now forbidden to post games on the site that are completely devoid of sexual themes.

Interesting, I didn't even know about this. It's also interesting that "they" chose to purge NSC games instead of. idk, maybe introducing stricter rules when it comes to underage porn?. F95 isn't exactly the Kool Kids Club when it comes to that with their super creepy loli and shota loopholes.

As for LDNA, I can't say much about it since I haven't played it since the initial release. But I do remember it being a more story focused game, or not?. So if the developer wants to tackle the incest topic in a more serious manner, by all means, go for it. I mean, there should be a big tonal shift coming up on that route. Absolutely nothing will be the same, his friends and family, his work.. Idk, there's so much going into this topic, I don't even wanna think about it . But yeah, going forward, it shouldn't be very hard to determine how serious the developer will take this storybranch.

One the flipside, "he" can do whatever he wants to of course. It's not really important if this game remains more grounded in reality or if it drifts into lala land. It's kinda whatever at the end of the day.

 

[yossa999]

Interesting, I didn't even know about this. It's also interesting that "they" chose to purge NSC games instead of. idk, maybe introducing stricter rules when it comes to underage porn?. F95 isn't exactly the Kool Kids Club when it comes to that with their super creepy loli and shota loopholes.

As for LDNA, I can't say much about it since I haven't played it since the initial release. But I do remember it being a more story focused game, or not?. So if the developer wants to tackle the incest topic in a more serious manner, by all means, go for it. I mean, there should be a big tonal shift coming up on that route. Absolutely nothing will be the same, his friends and family, his work.. Idk, there's so much going into this topic, I don't even wanna think about it . But yeah, going forward, it shouldn't be very hard to determine how serious the developer will take this storybranch.

One the flipside, "he" can do whatever he wants to of course. It's not really important if this game remains more grounded in reality or if it drifts into lala land. It's kinda whatever at the end of the day.

Yeah, I meant exactly that, the purge of NSC games.
https://f95zone.to/threads/no-sexual-content-games-missing-read-here.238104/

Damn, I apologize for spoiling this part of LDNA, but it was already discussed openly here, so I thought there was no point in bothering with spoilers. Yeah it's a story focused game with a minumum of the lewd scenes. I can only advise you to play it and then come back to this discussion, otherwise we will have to discuss the topic without specifics, and that makes no sense. I only repeat that incest there so far is akin to the fire in Acting Lessons.

 

[Impious Monk]

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Jufot, man, this is really an unfair comment.

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[jufot]

Jufot, man, this is really an unfair comment.

Hey Monk! Thanks for chiming in. I admit my reaction might have been a bit much. But please know that it's only because I've held (and continue to hold) LDNA in such high esteem. The vast majority of devs here commit much more egregious (in my opinion) errors, and they don't even register with me. I only complained because I care.

With that said, I'd like to address some of your specific points below.

if you think that I'm onboard with a mass response of, "Oh, wasn't that fun?" then I would like to clarify how I really feel.

It certainly felt like it, but I do hear you on the light-hearted, shit-talking nature of Discord and the need to blow off steam. It seems I've read you wrong here, and I apologize.

The reveal and loss of Colleen (and Emmeline, if that's the path the player is on) is supposed to be a dark, fucked up revelation.

This is the second time I've seen you mention the loss of Colleen, and for the life of me, I just don't get it. Why would the revelation mean losing Colleen? If blood is the reason Rockford cares for her, then he doesn't deserve her. If blood doesn't matter and family is what you choose (as this episode has argued so elegantly) then nothing changes about Colleen!

building as they are upon people furious with Jamie's mansion scene (a scene I really loved, and am crushed by the negative response to it)

I loved - loved - that scene, as I've mentioned in my comment here. It's a moment where they both show such exemplary character, that they both prioritize the other's well-being despite the emotional turmoil it causes them. It's a brilliant scene and you should be very proud!

No one seems interested in discussing the meaning of family, despite my trying to set this up throughout the entire story.

If it's any consolation, I'm still looking forward to the evolution of Rockford's understanding of what family is. I don't think you needed the Emmeline twist for that, but the previous three chapters have earned you a lot of leeway in my book, so I'm looking forward to seeing how you deal with it.

Like I told you on Discord, I'm really disappointed to hear you or anyone else call this a "cheap twist," because it shows me that I've completely failed in what I was trying to do.

As much as I don't like to disappoint you as a big fan and supporter of LDNA, I'm afraid it still feels cheap to me and a big part of that is not the revelation, but how you chose to present it. You placed it immediately after a sex scene where lack of protection, children, and pregnancy were deliberately highlighted. It was a sex scene meant for titillation, which invited a lot of the sneering "sister sex" commentary on Discord. If your goal was to highlight Rockford's emotional devastation on receiving said news and encourage discussion on that, you shouldn't have had the sex scene. He could have just talked to Aghavni at the office.

Anyway, I do apologize again if I seemed a bit too harsh, but hopefully this clarifies my opinions a bit.

EDIT: On a lighter note, the dream scene with Vega has put a huuge smile on my face. At first I felt a bit mad, like why would Vega apologize when she hasn't done anything wrong, but then you took it to a wonderful place that I couldn't see coming. Well done

 

[Impious Monk]

Sorry, one more thing I want to comment here, not really a continuation of my previous post but:

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[jufot]

some members have previously expressed an interest in seeing more AVNs where the devs are willing to kill off an LI

I've meant literally

For a player who loved Emmeline and cannot, will not ever go down an incest path, she's just been removed from the board. I hope this thread will see some value in that.

I see the value in that, certainly. It's just not a big loss to me, as her vision of white picket fence / lots of little spawn just doesn't appeal. I'd love to hear from the Emmeline fans who fit your description, though.

 

[yossa999]

I'd love to hear from the Emmeline fans who fit your description, though.

Emmeline fan (former?) reporting in. My first reaction was

Okay. My first playthrough is Emmeline. Fuck this game.

I was saying from Chapter 2, if you're choosing the options that shape Rockford as a guy who's tired of being alone and locked in a room with his phobias, then Emmeline is the best choice. She's not as pretty as the other girls, but she's very cute, adorable even when she's clumsy, and embodies family. So yeah, it was a low blow for a dating sim, Monk! But this story isn't a dating sim, right?

If blood is the reason Rockford cares for her, then he doesn't deserve her. If blood doesn't matter and family is what you choose (as this episode has argued so elegantly) then nothing changes about Colleen!

The essense of the yearly discussion in the Where it All Began thread. You probably would be surprised how many people think that blood means everything.

 

[jufot]

You probably would be surprised how many people think that blood means everything.

Not at all, sadly. I have very low opinions of a lot of people

 

[Drankz]

Hi Impious Monk

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[Impious Monk]

Hey Monk! Thanks for chiming in. I admit my reaction might have been a bit much. But please know that it's only because I've held (and continue to hold) LDNA in such high esteem. The vast majority of devs here commit much more egregious (in my opinion) errors, and they don't even register with me. I only complained because I care.

With that said, I'd like to address some of your specific points below.


It certainly felt like it, but I do hear you on the light-hearted, shit-talking nature of Discord and the need to blow off steam. It seems I've read you wrong here, and I apologize.


This is the second time I've seen you mention the loss of Colleen, and for the life of me, I just don't get it. Why would the revelation mean losing Colleen? If blood is the reason Rockford cares for her, then he doesn't deserve her. If blood doesn't matter and family is what you choose (as this episode has argued so elegantly) then nothing changes about Colleen!


I loved - loved - that scene, as I've mentioned in my comment here. It's a moment where they both show such exemplary character, that they both prioritize the other's well-being despite the emotional turmoil it causes them. It's a brilliant scene and you should be very proud!


If it's any consolation, I'm still looking forward to the evolution of Rockford's understanding of what family is. I don't think you needed the Emmeline twist for that, but the previous three chapters have earned you a lot of leeway in my book, so I'm looking forward to seeing how you deal with it.


As much as I don't like to disappoint you as a big fan and supporter of LDNA, I'm afraid it still feels cheap to me and a big part of that is not the revelation, but how you chose to present it. You placed it immediately after a sex scene where lack of protection, children, and pregnancy were deliberately highlighted. It was a sex scene meant for titillation, which invited a lot of the sneering "sister sex" commentary on Discord. If your goal was to highlight Rockford's emotional devastation on receiving said news and encourage discussion on that, you shouldn't have had the sex scene. He could have just talked to Aghavni at the office.

Anyway, I do apologize again if I seemed a bit too harsh, but hopefully this clarifies my opinions a bit.

EDIT: On a lighter note, the dream scene with Vega has put a huuge smile on my face. At first I felt a bit mad, like why would Vega apologize when she hasn't done anything wrong, but then you took it to a wonderful place that I couldn't see coming. Well done

I really do apologize man, my earlier comment was more of a response to the entire internet than to you, and that's not fair at all to you. Just been a week.

I've tried to avoid spending commenting in this thread lately because I know I can get defensive and I really do think threads like this are important for fans/players to be able to freely express themselves without worrying about offending some insecure dev on the other side of the internet. And even though it can be painful reading harsh commentary from people I respect, I would much, much rather hear the unvarnished truth than just get smoke blown up my ass.

Screenwriter Paul Guyot says the difference between an amateur writer and a professional writer getting feedback is that the amateur only wants to hear what's great about his work, while the professional only wants to hear how he can improve. This is my first time writing anything so I'm without question a horrible amateur, but I aspire to be better.

I appreciate you, brother.

 

[camube]

i see a lot of posts with spoilers here and the word incest. i haven't had time to read Leaving DNA. probably wont have a time for a month
damn im gonna leave this thread for a while so i can enjoy the game when i get around to read it

 

[jufot]

I really do apologize man, my earlier comment was more of a response to the entire internet than to you, and that's not fair at all to you.

No apology necessary, mate. Keep in mind that I'm just some anonymous guy on the Internet running his mouth. I can't imagine the stress you've been under, and it would behove us all (me especially) to phrase any criticism constructively.

This is my first time writing anything so I'm without question a horrible amateur, but I aspire to be better.

You've said this before long ago, and I'm sorry, but I still don't believe it. Nobody writes this good on their first try

 

[Tlaero]

Imagine the following scenario. You're inexperienced in sexual affairs and very, very nervous. You work up the nerve take your clothes off in front of someone else for the first time ... and they snicker.

Writers do the same thing, only rather than baring their bodies, they bare their souls. The snickers hit hard.

Impious Monk, I'm sorry for what you're going through. I can't promise that it gets better, but I can say that I appreciate your bravery in putting yourself out there like you did. Hang in there.

Tlaero

 

[moskyx]

Jufot, man, this is really an unfair comment.

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I'm not sure how to put this without sounding like an insensitive cunt, since it's obvious this project means so much to you, and it shows - not to mention I'm also aware of your struggles of these last months. But you should realize your target audience was a small subset of players from a niche. You aimed to raise the bar for AVN games with a serious plot, and so far I'd say you're closer to succeeding than not, but you are still making an AVN nonetheless. So, adjust your own expectations, maybe?

I mean, if you were hoping for deep philosophical discussions about serious matters, maybe an AVN wasn't the right media, in the first place? It attracts a large group of people who just don't care about that and won't hesitate to crush your creation as soon as it diverges from what they expect/demand from these games, misguiding the public discussion you hoped for. But, leaving that aside, the truth is that sex blurs everything else, even in threads like this. By default, as I said above, an enormous chunk of your players will miss all of those nuances you tried to add to your characters and scenes, as they only focus on sex and instant gratification, and even those who actually care about the story and how it's told will still miss (and/or dismiss) something, sometimes blinded too by the lewd content.

It doesn't help that this is an episodic work, too: you know the whole story, you know why your characters act the way they act and say the things they say, but the rest of us can only guess your intentions based on the portion we've received, our own sensitivity, and the potential paths we can see in front of us as of now. And we'll use our bias and experiences in real life and adult gaming to shape those guessings, and our adult gaming experiences will probably make us fear the worst (well, you were aiming to raise the bar for a reason). Don't sweat for this, it's not your fault (or, maybe only a little). Trust the process. As long as everything you add to the game makes perfect sense in your mind, and fits your characters and the story and environment you aimed to create, you shouldn't worry too much about us not getting the whole picture or not being as interested as you in those small details that felt so important to you. And sometimes we need a little nudge like this comment to help us better understand what you were aiming for and shape our future expectations accordingly. You're the author, don't hesitate to kick the discussion ball rolling.

Then there's also this wish (that I guess almost every author has) to transcend and shock your players with unusual and unexpected turns, which can be a hurtful drive - what you think is a well-thought scene can be easily perceived as a cheap twist by many players, as it's impossible to get the exact amount of drama right: different people have different tolerance limits and will feel kicked out of their suspension of disbelief at different points of the story. But that's also to be expected when you face such a diverse audience and your chosen twist steps into a controversial zone for many players, be it killing off a LI or suddenly making her family. Some people will applaud your balls, and others will want to cut them off. That's creative work in a nutshell.

In my particular case, the way I see this twist is double-edged: I can understand your intentions regarding its impact on these characters, especially the MC, and as I said the other day I'd be genuinely interested in seeing how this particular path would evolve characterization-wise because everything else is great in your game and I trust you'll manage to make it worthwhile for the 'story-focused' subset of players, but I can't help but state that the way it's presented is a trap on players that can be easily perceived as a cheap shocking resource just for the sake of drama, even though it makes perfect sense after your explanation. But, most importantly to me, I can't help but notice you're creating an AVN and there's also this very solid chance that one of the potential ramifications would eventually involve players being able to choose to indulge in the incestuous relationship, much to this other large subset of 'kink-oriented' players titillation. And since it's a kink that hits too close to home to me (I could tell this MC a couple of things about what a family is), it's a twist that I can't honestly like in this media. I'll still translate this episode, but if the potential scenario is developed the way I fear, I might not be able to continue after this. But hey, it's in your disclaimer. You shouldn't feel bad about meeting someone who may, indeed, want to skip your AVN due to its themes. By all means, keep doing what you always wanted to do.

 

[jufot]

Alright, in the almost 5-year history of this thread, this is only the second time I'm making an unusual recommendation.

Abnormal is not a story-first game. One could argue if it has a story at all. What it does have is some smart, tightly paced writing and an endearing set of core characters.

It's a slice of life VN set around Stephanie, a Mennonite-looking, nerdy wallflower. She and her best friend Raina are about to graduate from high school, and are tormented by their long-term nemesis Sadie and her trio of Mean Girls bullies. Stephanie also has her mum and a younger brother, Hubert.

The game's name comes from Hubert's theory of "the abnormal virgin," an idea so ridiculous, it could only exist in porn. And as porny as that sounds, it is surprisingly well articulated and serves as a funny, self-aware parody of porn logic.

It's a fairly standard coming of age story centred on Stephanie's sexual awakening. It's corruption, but in the literal, loss of innocence sense, without any of the genre's distasteful tropes like abuse, violence, rape and so on. In fact, if you squint really really hard, the game's sexual politics are kinda-sorta progressive, if a little cynical. It's a fairly long game despite being only 6-months old, and it requires copious suspension of disbelief. There is plenty of porn logic, especially on the family side. Not an incest game, though, but there is some blurring of the lines.

Stephanie's character growth (and corruption) is done very well and is largely driven by Raina and Sadie. They are both well written, smart, interesting characters. Importantly, they have lives outside Stephanie, including sexually! Sadie in particular is my favourite character. Her intelligence and cynicism reminds me of Corporate Culture's Elsa (always a plus), though Sadie has actual vulnerability and heart to her. In fact, some of her dialogue could fit perfectly well into CC:

Sadie: "You know what's thrilling?"
Steph: "Picking on others relentlessly and filling their heads with bullshit?"
Sadie: "Besides that. Subverting expectations."
Steph: "Huh?"
Sadie: "Proving to others you aren't what you seem. That you're more than your image."
Sadie: "It's like having a hidden power."
Sadie: "Because people cling to what's normal. And that's boring."
Sadie: "But you can take that tendency and use it like a weapon. Misdirect their expectations in new and exciting ways…"
Steph: "Sensei teaches something similar in aikido… To use your opponent's momentum and energy against them…"
Sadie: "That's exactly it! But they don't have to be your opponents. It can even be your friends. Or family."
Sadie: "Everywhere you look, people are stuck in their preconceptions."
Sadie: "Their minds are full of assumptions, desires for familiarity, notions of normalcy, the comforts of routine and pattern."
Steph: "You really are a master manipulator, aren't you?"
Sadie: "We all are, just some are more self-aware than others."
Steph: "I never thought I'd be sitting here with a topless Sadie Carter talking philosophy…"

If any of this sounds intriguing, maybe give it a go?

 

[boobsrcool]

I, for one found the twist to be hot!

Jufot Nelson have you given Tribulations of a Mage a spin yet? I didn't play the terminus reach games a try but in my opinion it's been

 

[TREXrg]

Sorry, one more thing I want to comment here, not really a continuation of my previous post but:

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Rule of thumb is often people say they want something but in reality they want something else and with romances and death it's easy to enrages people with something they care about .

On story note killing of (good or plot)characters don't work well in general and even if they are at the ending of storys, people realy want happy endings for them self and in games/selfinsert Mc with the love intrest of there choice every story that has choices but then has no option to have a happy end is for most people a bad story.
Acting Lesson is more hated then loved by most because of that reason.

Most see VN's as entertainment to forget/don't feel negative to the point they are reminded of tragedys in there own lives, death is something people can't realy ignore if they care for the characters that are dead and people that don't care don't care so it's a loose loose situation.

So if done it's either optional(more work) or negativly recived

About optional it's like kinks most don't care about it if it's avoidable but if not avoidable they will react because they feel forced to it(baldurs gate 3 does it to the point where you can do freak and evil stuff but are not forced to do it that way and surves show most people/89% play good so the effort is there because they want to have the choices for two reason first they want them themself and seconde it shows even the good players the option to be evil or freaky is there and people like having options even if they never use the options)

About negativly recived it's something that has to be calulated and expected and the question every autors has to ask is if the character has more value alive or dead(exept in westerns there it's Dead or Alive) even George R.R.Martin regrets killing some charaters of becaues now he does not know how to drivethe story in the direction where he wants them to (He killed to many Plot Charaters of for shock without asking the question first Dead or Alive)

I personaly have Story's where characters CAN die(but also saved and main route is always the save route) but it's more work so either made by a team or done at the end of game/story.
The more work is the main reason because good characters are not in a vacum and thus afect others so lots of lines have to be adjusted and even character arcs have to change

So it's a cost question of time and/or money(if more people) it optionale or of goodwill if not optional because people that did not care about certain character will still get fear about the characters the like.