Descartes says “I now seem to be able to lay it down as a general rule that whatever I perceive very clearly and distinctly is true”, so I'd think he would have avoid to make a comment for an unfinished business due to lack of clarity.
To be honest, the Els/Vi interaction you are referencing here is the scene that cemented Els as "best girl" for me. Relationships are always a competition of some kind in the real world, so saying she is playing a "game" to win the MC's love ultimately says nothing about her.
More importantly though, if anyone thinks that Els is selfish and/or abusive in some way, then let me tell you, as horrible as a "mean girl" can be to a guy, they're always ten times worse to other women. That's the true gauge for spotting awful female behaviour. Especially if they are malicious enough to see that girl as an obstacle on their way to a man's affection. If Els was putting on an act (and that is a big if as far as I'm concerned), and she was truly not a nice person underneath, then she would have taken an inexperienced and shy girl like Vi and just eaten her up and spat her out without a second thought. Again, let's consider what we didn't see in this scene. There was no comment like: "You've grown into such a beautiful young woman, Vi, despite what happened to you." Ouch. We didn't see that type of negging from Els, subconsciously reminding Vi of her scars, and attempting to undercut her self-confidence. Or if you think that's bad, how about: "Before you try to win Valentine's heart, make sure you borrow my razor and get rid of that hair on your chin. Oh...sorry. My bad, that's not facial hair. Oh well, I'm sure he'll get used to it." Double ouch. Now that one is obviously too direct of an insult, but Vi's weakness is clear, and a truly awful person could easily find dozens of ways to try and destroy her through pointing out the unimportant and superficial blemishes she carries on her face and elsewhere.
But what actually happened in this scene? Well, instead we get Els giving Vi what I can only describe as an adult version of a pep talk. It is full of good advice, by encouraging Vi to fight for what she wants, and telling her to share her honest feelings with MC. That's...kind of wholesome. Personally, I saw this as Els supporting Vi in a direct way, because Els wants other women to become independent and confident too. Yes, she was honest about her own intentions to win that contest, but the bits of dialog you refer to as "warnings" to Vi have to be considered in context:
With the first quote, Els is simply saying she isn't going be a pushover. She says she "plays for keeps" only after encouraging Vi to fight for what she wants, so it makes sense that Els would then say that she was going to be fighting her hardest to win the MC as well. And the context of the second quote ("You don't know what you're getting into") is specifically around Vi not understanding who the MC is, so it is part of a much different subject than warning her about some imagined retribution in general. Indeed, Vi doesn't hear it as a threat at all, and she only responds by standing up for herself and noting the many years she spent growing up with the MC as being more important than Els's shorter time spent with him as a coworker.
And as an aside, because this is important, let's actually consider this question of: "Who knows the MC best?". Els's "I'm the better match" is not her saying that MC has changed from war. What Els is noting here is that Vi still sees the MC with the blind adoration of a child. To Vi, the MC is a pristine white knight from out of a fairy tale, while Els instead understands him as a full human being, flaws and all. To Vi, the MC is still stuck in that "apple in a young girl's eye" fantasy of an older boy, which Els recognizes – rightfully – as not serving as a good starting point for a healthy long-term relationship. This is a very strong insight from her. By saying: "You don't understand him like I do" she's actually trying to help Vi, and the MC too, by giving Vi some "tough love" and telling her to grow up and see him with a woman's eyes, or if they do end up together, neither of them are going to be happy in the long run when reality inevitably destroys that illusion.
So yeah, I think we came into that conversation with very different perspectives, and it definitely changed how we viewed Els's actions within it quite significantly. I accept that I could be wrong about who she is, though I think that is not likely. However, if future actions do reveal a more dismissive and completely selfish personality, then I'll be willing to admit that her act fooled me. But that would require some major recontextualization through a strong narrative thrust by the story's author to not break verisimilitude for me. Els has had a lot of opportunities and temptations to go full sociopath if that's what she was truly hiding, but – so far at least – she has shown herself through her actions to be a person of integrity, and so I'm running with that for now.
Your ideas about how Els sees her enjoyment of violence (or at least being drawn to violence out of some morbid curiousity) as something truly disgusting about her, and a serious character flaw only the MC could accept, is an interesting facet of her personality I hadn't really considered. This could indeed be the case, but there's a disconnect that happens here. At this point in the story, without any context for her concern, my honest reaction to this revelation from her would be: "Congratulations. You're an adrenaline junkie. Now let's celebrate by having some more wild and rough sex."
I mean, there could be something truly dark behind it all, but I also wonder if it's maybe partly indulgent self-pity that's making it overblown. On the one hand, Els seems too strong-willed to feel sorry for herself over nothing, but on the other hand people can surprise you with their ability to delude themselves.
Actually, this might be a sort of last resort for a smart MC to draw out those secrets from Els. MC: "You know you just sound like you're wallowing in self-pity? Part of me wants to just tell you to snap out of it." Els: "You don't know what I've seen, or what I've been through." MC: "Yeah, I don't. And that's the problem. Until I do, all I can say is to stop feeling sorry for yourself. Because you know what? I'm tired of having to imagine all the horrible memories that would make you put up such huge walls around yourself, all so that I don't 'hurt your feelings'. Look. If you're not ready to talk about it, then I won't make you. But you should understand: it's mentally exhausting for me to live like this."
Well, the MC does have long conversations with his two dead friends regularly. Though I understand what you are saying here, because even those particular delusions (whether they are diagnosed as just auditory hallucinations or outright schizophrenia) are not really presented to the reader as an "illness" that he is concerned about. In the story they just sort of...happen. The imagined conversations are used more as a narrative device to avoid relying on excessive flashbacks than anything else. So I feel it doesn't quite land to us readers as representative of his poor mental health. However, even if those interactions are just meant as symbolic and are not an actual psychological issue that is dealt with directly, it's still clear from them that he has things that are bothering him from his past life.
So I don't think that therapy is out of the question here, though a lot of that depends on getting the right kind of therapist. The MC has been dealing reasonably well with his problems so far, at least to my untrained eye. So as long as he gets counseling from someone who recognizes that he is processing things in a "moving into the future" manner (the more "masculine" approach to healing, which is primarily done through being active and by the creation of new memories and experiences) rather than forcing him into a "reminiscing about the past" solution (the more "feminine" approach, realized through talking and the discussion and understanding of existing memories), then I think he can benefit from some professional insight into his situation. That's why I think the "group chat session" stuff at the Center is not a good fit for him. Like most guys, he just leaves long discussions and meetings mentally exhausted and feeling like both they and he were unproductive. Physical training and fighting have clear and tangible outcomes, which from the story have shown to mean more to his mental well-being than endless talking and words.
Maybe we just see it differently, for me, a relationship is a cooperation. It's give and take. It actually sounds exhausting to have to compete with my partner.
For clarity, I think Els is crazy (in the unresolved issues-way), I don't think she's evil. And, being facetious, Els didn't kill her competition, but does that make her a good person? Sure, she could've been actually mean and destroy Vi with words, instead she (again) made a game out of it. That's her hubris showing. I don't think it's a good personality trait. Els didn't say "You really don't know what you're getting into." for Vi's benefit, I don't think.
Yes, you're right, I can see that as well. Maybe it's a language issue, and certainly it's partly because of my subjective opinion of Els, I just don't see it as well-meaning. Though, in the end, it's up to Vi how she interpreted it. And having had the talk with her afterward, she did open up about her feelings.
You did somewhat mellow my initial frustration with Els. I'm not discounting her out of hand anymore, though I'm still very weary of her actions and motivations. I'm glad your view on her differs from mine, because it challenges me to dig a bit deeper, to find exactly what's bugging me. This might sound self-serving, I just really enjoy conversations like these.
I think you hit the nail on the head that these are narrative constructs. Valentine doesn't talk to them out loud. I see it more as intrusive thoughts, not delusions per se. Though, the game's a bit wishy-washy with them. We don't know if Davis was the first to appear after his (unconfirmed) death. We see Valentine motioning or even holding them, but we don't know if bystanders would see him actually sitting, or standing in the pose we're shown.
All things considered, he's doing great. Vi shows more signs of PTSD than Valentine does. Valentine's issues aren't as much stress related, as they are about having learned the wrong lessons and habits.
If anything, it's a compliment to STWA for writing characters that actually have depth (I'm looking at you, My Bully is My Lover). I'm much the same, I enjoy the conversation and have gained many new insights that I wouldn't have come to on my own.
For me, Kana explained it when she said (paraphrasing) that she has needs and that it's been a long time. They both were "in the moment".
I did. Because of this conversation I took a few Els paths to see how they played out, out of curiosity, then reloaded and went back to the choice I actually wanted to do.
That's a good call! He actually says as much to Vi. I didn't make that link, and thought it had to do with serious betrayal.
Yeah, that's where I'm at as well.
Ahhh! I think it's because you ran the gallery without playing the game before... I hadn't thought of that... I will add the possibility to modify your name in the gallery. So to fix your problem, you have to run the game at least once to enter your name (and then you can leave the game and go to the gallery).
Updated. You can input your name in the gallery now (first thumbnail).
I didn't pick up on this, it's easy to forget that Els does nothing without a reason, including leaving her purse at the table.
shes a journalist at the press conference prior to valentines first fight and asks him questionsA question, at the end of the game where dev thanks to others mentioned Sadie from Bare Witness was in the game, where was she?
You're kinda sounding like you're (or your mc) is intimidated by her and her attitude which is exactly her problem and the reason shes lacking friends or love interrest in her past.
When I said relationships were a game I was talking about the bigger picture, namely the game of overall mate selection within the sexual marketplace. We started off talking about the Vi and Els interaction where they discuss competing for the MC, and the way Els enjoyed playing the simple game of who gets chosen as a partner, and why other potential mates must therefore be considered "less compelling options". So that's why I said the "game" description was obvious and not meaningful in describing how Els approached that talk. And just as an aside, I do find that particular subject quite fascinating. Applying the concept of game theory to mating at the level of populations can be quite fun and insightful at times.
I'm glad I might have smoothed out a few things about her that you interpreted differently. I actually took your criticism in good faith and wondered myself if there was anything about her story and actions that I might have missed. And because of what you and others have revealed I do realize that building a relationship with Els is going to be a lot more complicated and volatile than I had previously imagined. She's still "best girl" for me by a country mile, but I'm definitely more cautious and wary now than I used to be about her intentions.
Her trust score did indeed change strangely – and significantly in opposing directions! – with the choice of bite or no bite, which is interesting to consider. You know, that reminds me: the way Elspeth's trust and friendship points are getting distributed so far in the game feels a bit bizarre. There was a scene in an earlier chapter where the player needed trust > friendship to get on Els's romance path I think. And since then a lot of the "good" choices for her have increased her trust, while weirdly decreasing her friendship at the same time. I think this might be the dev's way of simulating the idea of "not being friend-zoned" by her. Though why trust always seems to be gained at the expense of friendship is strange. And this is an Els-only thing, since none of the other LIs has a "trust" variable, while all of them except Vi have a "friend" variable. Perhaps the "trust" score exists because Els wants to find people who challenge her and who she can learn and grow from being around? And so that trusted person, whether they end up being a romantic interest or not, cannot be a friend who always tries to say the "nice, friendly thing" to her?
The greatest thing about the rise of independent media (YouTube, Bandcamp, F95zone, and so many others) are the enthusiastic communities that develop around those creations, and all the interesting interactions that can be had therein.
I must admit, I didn't notice that. Now I'm going to have to go back and see what was said in that conversation, and understand what in the discussion would be so important to Els (other than that she was the topic of conversation of course). I guess it could just be the "control enthusiast" in her wanting every bit of information she can get her hands on, just in case it was useful somehow. Hard to say, especially considering her military intelligence background. Gathering intel when the opportunity presented itself could just be second nature to her at this point.
I don't remember her saying that she had seen the same amount of "action" as the MC, though I can't recall the specific words, so I could be wrong about that. I think she only intimated that she had "experiences" that were comparable to his, or something like that. And I think she does have a valid point there. There is an important difference in the feeling of culpability for commanders, intelligence personnel, etc, who have to make decisions that cause the deaths of allies and friends, whereas a soldier only deals mostly with their responsibility for killing other enemy soldiers. Living daily with the knowledge that people you care about will die because of what you tell them to do, and inevitably making mistakes that cause large numbers of unneeded deaths among those who trusted you?...I can see that weighing quite heavily on someone's conscience, as compared to the simple "kill or be killed" of ground combat, where the ethical questions are far more black and white.
It's not what they talked though, it's what she did.
Intimidated isn't the right word. On his toes, maybe. My MC is very weary of Els' motivations because of all the reasons I've mentioned before. She's a master manipulator.
I agree, never said otherwise. I might have my doubts on her motivation though.
And that's the crux of my issues with her. Els should've made a choice. In the pool, either she should've kissed Valentine, or break his walls. Not both. She muddied the waters. My impression was that she got off on the confrontation, and her "afraid of a little domestic?" (paraphrasing) in Mallorca reinforces that feeling I have about her.
Devil's advocate... But is she really seeing through him, or is she seeing things in Valentine that aren't there? If we use some meta reasoning, and consider that Els is 100% right about Valentine... Then no other Love Interest would have a shot, Els would be the perfect partner. Obviously that isn't the case, which means Els is fallible. We don't have to take her on her word. She could be wrong about Valentine.
I don't think he's afraid of commitment. The Centre, training Amrit, becoming a champion... All of those are huge commitments. Valentine himself says it at a certain point, he discovered that women just threw them at him, and he lost himself and made bad choices. All things considered, he just wasn't over Zaida yet, not ready to actually love and be emotionally open with a partner. He's clearly working on that now, though.
It's funny, I'm thinking the same, but draw the opposite conclusion. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds to me like you're saying "She wants the perfect partner in Valentine, so she's making sure to help him.". I think I'll like Els a lot more on the friendship path, where she'll help Valentine unconditionally, not because she stands to gain from it. ;-)
I don't think so, she did not know MC before they met in London long after the events, she was part of UK forces and it was a secret US operation involving secret service not a joint operation, McNab and local insurgents was involved through MC. Also I don't think Elspeth would operate on guilt. It also does not explain about her death friend, or her visions etc.
Or she was either there when Anastasia was killed and then killed her murderer or she used her ressources to find out who it was and then took the murderer out herself. The blood pattern we see in her fantasies suggests that she didn't use a gun from long range either, so maybe close combat with a knife. Instead of feeling guilty or shocked to have taken a life, she loved every second of it, and now she can't get the memory out of her head.
