VN Ren'Py STWA: Unbroken [Pt. 7] [STWAdev]

[Jericho85]

To be honest, the Els/Vi interaction you are referencing here is the scene that cemented Els as "best girl" for me. Relationships are always a competition of some kind in the real world, so saying she is playing a "game" to win the MC's love ultimately says nothing about her.

More importantly though, if anyone thinks that Els is selfish and/or abusive in some way, then let me tell you, as horrible as a "mean girl" can be to a guy, they're always ten times worse to other women. That's the true gauge for spotting awful female behaviour. Especially if they are malicious enough to see that girl as an obstacle on their way to a man's affection. If Els was putting on an act (and that is a big if as far as I'm concerned), and she was truly not a nice person underneath, then she would have taken an inexperienced and shy girl like Vi and just eaten her up and spat her out without a second thought. Again, let's consider what we didn't see in this scene. There was no comment like: "You've grown into such a beautiful young woman, Vi, despite what happened to you." Ouch. We didn't see that type of negging from Els, subconsciously reminding Vi of her scars, and attempting to undercut her self-confidence. Or if you think that's bad, how about: "Before you try to win Valentine's heart, make sure you borrow my razor and get rid of that hair on your chin. Oh...sorry. My bad, that's not facial hair. Oh well, I'm sure he'll get used to it." Double ouch. Now that one is obviously too direct of an insult, but Vi's weakness is clear, and a truly awful person could easily find dozens of ways to try and destroy her through pointing out the unimportant and superficial blemishes she carries on her face and elsewhere.

But what actually happened in this scene? Well, instead we get Els giving Vi what I can only describe as an adult version of a pep talk. It is full of good advice, by encouraging Vi to fight for what she wants, and telling her to share her honest feelings with MC. That's...kind of wholesome. Personally, I saw this as Els supporting Vi in a direct way, because Els wants other women to become independent and confident too. Yes, she was honest about her own intentions to win that contest, but the bits of dialog you refer to as "warnings" to Vi have to be considered in context:



With the first quote, Els is simply saying she isn't going be a pushover. She says she "plays for keeps" only after encouraging Vi to fight for what she wants, so it makes sense that Els would then say that she was going to be fighting her hardest to win the MC as well. And the context of the second quote ("You don't know what you're getting into") is specifically around Vi not understanding who the MC is, so it is part of a much different subject than warning her about some imagined retribution in general. Indeed, Vi doesn't hear it as a threat at all, and she only responds by standing up for herself and noting the many years she spent growing up with the MC as being more important than Els's shorter time spent with him as a coworker.

And as an aside, because this is important, let's actually consider this question of: "Who knows the MC best?". Els's "I'm the better match" is not her saying that MC has changed from war. What Els is noting here is that Vi still sees the MC with the blind adoration of a child. To Vi, the MC is a pristine white knight from out of a fairy tale, while Els instead understands him as a full human being, flaws and all. To Vi, the MC is still stuck in that "apple in a young girl's eye" fantasy of an older boy, which Els recognizes – rightfully – as not serving as a good starting point for a healthy long-term relationship. This is a very strong insight from her. By saying: "You don't understand him like I do" she's actually trying to help Vi, and the MC too, by giving Vi some "tough love" and telling her to grow up and see him with a woman's eyes, or if they do end up together, neither of them are going to be happy in the long run when reality inevitably destroys that illusion.

So yeah, I think we came into that conversation with very different perspectives, and it definitely changed how we viewed Els's actions within it quite significantly. I accept that I could be wrong about who she is, though I think that is not likely. However, if future actions do reveal a more dismissive and completely selfish personality, then I'll be willing to admit that her act fooled me. But that would require some major recontextualization through a strong narrative thrust by the story's author to not break verisimilitude for me. Els has had a lot of opportunities and temptations to go full sociopath if that's what she was truly hiding, but – so far at least – she has shown herself through her actions to be a person of integrity, and so I'm running with that for now.



Your ideas about how Els sees her enjoyment of violence (or at least being drawn to violence out of some morbid curiousity) as something truly disgusting about her, and a serious character flaw only the MC could accept, is an interesting facet of her personality I hadn't really considered. This could indeed be the case, but there's a disconnect that happens here. At this point in the story, without any context for her concern, my honest reaction to this revelation from her would be: "Congratulations. You're an adrenaline junkie. Now let's celebrate by having some more wild and rough sex." Yes, that's a bit of a crass joke about what is probably a touchy subject for her, but right now I can't see why she cares so much about this. You think you're the only person in the world who has twisted thoughts sometimes? Seriously?

I mean, there could be something truly dark behind it all, but I also wonder if it's maybe partly indulgent self-pity that's making it overblown. On the one hand, Els seems too strong-willed to feel sorry for herself over nothing, but on the other hand people can surprise you with their ability to delude themselves.

Actually, this might be a sort of last resort for a smart MC to draw out those secrets from Els. MC: "You know you just sound like you're wallowing in self-pity? Part of me wants to just tell you to snap out of it." Els: "You don't know what I've seen, or what I've been through." MC: "Yeah, I don't. And that's the problem. Until I do, all I can say is to stop feeling sorry for yourself. Because you know what? I'm tired of having to imagine all the horrible memories that would make you put up such huge walls around yourself, all so that I don't 'hurt your feelings'. Look. If you're not ready to talk about it, then I won't make you. But you should understand: it's mentally exhausting for me to live like this."



Well, the MC does have long conversations with his two dead friends regularly. Though I understand what you are saying here, because even those particular delusions (whether they are diagnosed as just auditory hallucinations or outright schizophrenia) are not really presented to the reader as an "illness" that he is concerned about. In the story they just sort of...happen. The imagined conversations are used more as a narrative device to avoid relying on excessive flashbacks than anything else. So I feel it doesn't quite land to us readers as representative of his poor mental health. However, even if those interactions are just meant as symbolic and are not an actual psychological issue that is dealt with directly, it's still clear from them that he has things that are bothering him from his past life.

So I don't think that therapy is out of the question here, though a lot of that depends on getting the right kind of therapist. The MC has been dealing reasonably well with his problems so far, at least to my untrained eye. So as long as he gets counseling from someone who recognizes that he is processing things in a "moving into the future" manner (the more "masculine" approach to healing, which is primarily done through being active and by the creation of new memories and experiences) rather than forcing him into a "reminiscing about the past" solution (the more "feminine" approach, realized through talking and the discussion and understanding of existing memories), then I think he can benefit from some professional insight into his situation. That's why I think the "group chat session" stuff at the Center is not a good fit for him. Like most guys, he just leaves long discussions and meetings mentally exhausted and feeling like both they and he were unproductive. Physical training and fighting have clear and tangible outcomes, which from the story have shown to mean more to his mental well-being than endless talking and words.

 

[Quetzzz]

To be honest, the Els/Vi interaction you are referencing here is the scene that cemented Els as "best girl" for me. Relationships are always a competition of some kind in the real world, so saying she is playing a "game" to win the MC's love ultimately says nothing about her.

Maybe we just see it differently, for me, a relationship is a cooperation. It's give and take. It actually sounds exhausting to have to compete with my partner.

If Els was putting on an act (and that is a big if as far as I'm concerned), and she was truly not a nice person underneath, then she would have taken an inexperienced and shy girl like Vi and just eaten her up and spat her out without a second thought. Again, let's consider what we didn't see in this scene.

For clarity, I think Els is crazy (in the unresolved issues-way), I don't think she's evil. And, being facetious, Els didn't kill her competition, but does that make her a good person? Sure, she could've been actually mean and destroy Vi with words, instead she (again) made a game out of it. That's her hubris showing. I don't think it's a good personality trait. Els didn't say "You really don't know what you're getting into." for Vi's benefit, I don't think.
The main question might be what exactly she's referencing. Does it apply to how she thinks Valentine and her are the same, and that Vi can't handle that? Or that Vi has no idea how to play Els' games? Maybe something else?

Els sees in Valentine a kindred spirit, someone who, by lack of a better description, lives for conflict. I think it's dangerous to take Els' word for it (as a player), that Valentine is actually this way. If he isn't, then Vi has nothing to worry about.

But what actually happened in this scene? Well, instead we get Els giving Vi what I can only describe as an adult version of a pep talk. It is full of good advice, by encouraging Vi to fight for what she wants, and telling her to share her honest feelings with MC.

Yes, you're right, I can see that as well. Maybe it's a language issue, and certainly it's partly because of my subjective opinion of Els, I just don't see it as well-meaning. Though, in the end, it's up to Vi how she interpreted it. And having had the talk with her afterward, she did open up about her feelings.

So yeah, I think we came into that conversation with very different perspectives, and it definitely changed how we viewed Els's actions within it quite significantly. I accept that I could be wrong about who she is, though I think that is not likely. However, if future actions do reveal a more dismissive and completely selfish personality, then I'll be willing to admit that her act fooled me.

You did somewhat mellow my initial frustration with Els. I'm not discounting her out of hand anymore, though I'm still very weary of her actions and motivations. I'm glad your view on her differs from mine, because it challenges me to dig a bit deeper, to find exactly what's bugging me. This might sound self-serving, I just really enjoy conversations like these.
As for Els, she might actually love Valentine, or at least her idea of who and what Valentine is.

I got curious and looked into the points certain choices give in the game's code.

Spoiler: Reactions to Els biting MC

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Well, the MC does have long conversations with his two dead friends regularly. Though I understand what you are saying here, because even those particular delusions (whether they are diagnosed as just auditory hallucinations or outright schizophrenia) are not really presented to the reader as an "illness" that he is concerned about. In the story they just sort of...happen. The imagined conversations are used more as a narrative device to avoid relying on excessive flashbacks than anything else. So I feel it doesn't quite land to us readers as representative of his poor mental health. However, even if those interactions are just meant as symbolic and are not an actual psychological issue that is dealt with directly, it's still clear from them that he has things that are bothering him from his past life.

I think you hit the nail on the head that these are narrative constructs. Valentine doesn't talk to them out loud. I see it more as intrusive thoughts, not delusions per se. Though, the game's a bit wishy-washy with them. We don't know if Davis was the first to appear after his (unconfirmed) death. We see Valentine motioning or even holding them, but we don't know if bystanders would see him actually sitting, or standing in the pose we're shown.
When Zaina says "One last time" (For their sex scene.), I think this is Valentine slowly getting closure and allowing room for a new love. The apparition of Zaina is Valentine, so it's Valentine tempting himself to indulge one more time, or not. But it's the last time, he's slowly saying goodbye. So much depends on what STWA means with these constructs. If they are actual hallucinations, then Valentine is doing worse than I think. If they're just constructs to replace an inner monologue, then that's fine.

So I don't think that therapy is out of the question here, though a lot of that depends on getting the right kind of therapist. The MC has been dealing reasonably well with his problems so far, at least to my untrained eye.

All things considered, he's doing great. Vi shows more signs of PTSD than Valentine does. Valentine's issues aren't as much stress related, as they are about having learned the wrong lessons and habits.
When I say that Valentine doesn't need therapy, I'm not saying he couldn't benefit from it regardless. Everyone could benefit from therapy, we all have some issues or bad habits that we can use help with. From what I'm seeing, Valentine is getting a handle on things. At least as a Face, it seems that way. Maybe if I'd made more Heel choices, I would think differently.

You're right about the masculine and feminine way of dealing with things. Men support each other by shooting the shit, good-natured ribbing and just blowing off steam. In that sense, Els' talk with Valentine at the beach-bar in Mallorca was way more effective. I almost told her I needed help, but (roleplaying) I didn't want to give her the win, not play her game. And there was probably some pride involved as well.

 

[Quetzzz]

I know this was very likely made in jest, but as someone who is rocking an Elspeth-exclusive save as their canon playthrough, let me with all seriousness say that I welcome any and all criticism of characters, stories, etc, that I happen to like. If the comment is made in good faith, then well-thought-out critique helps me to better understand why I enjoy something. And if it happens that I'm not able to properly rationalize my position in favour of that character, plot element, etc, then I get to see the stuff that I missed and I learn more about the story just the same. It's a win-win either way.

If anything, it's a compliment to STWA for writing characters that actually have depth (I'm looking at you, My Bully is My Lover). I'm much the same, I enjoy the conversation and have gained many new insights that I wouldn't have come to on my own.

 

[Quetzzz]

In this case I see the scene with Kana as more aggressive than with Els.
The bite is about being brothers in arms and bleeding for each other. And the rest I see it as a way of playing or teasing each other in the scene, I just see them as two active people in bed.

For me, Kana explained it when she said (paraphrasing) that she has needs and that it's been a long time. They both were "in the moment".
With Els, who makes everything a game or a test, I'm not sure if it's just playing and teasing. Els is a lot more complicated than that, and we know she has serious issues with giving up control. (Note how catty and passive-aggressive she was right before Mallorca.)

First of all, I have the feeling that you are mixing paths. The logical thing to do would be not to kiss her if you are not interested in her.
However, I don't disagree with you that in that case he could have given her some other more detailed justification.

I did. Because of this conversation I took a few Els paths to see how they played out, out of curiosity, then reloaded and went back to the choice I actually wanted to do.
When turning down Els, I wished the MC would have said above things to her. The way I see it, Valentine holds the cards. Els wants him, yet she's making him play her game.

He says that about Davis, because he has done the same things Davis did to other people, and other things we don't know.
He killed whoever he was ordered to kill without thinking, leaving their loved ones just as fucked up as Davis left him.

That's a good call! He actually says as much to Vi. I didn't make that link, and thought it had to do with serious betrayal.

We know the outcome. That because of that fight, he left another person badly hurt. And possibly that is what made him enlist, to avoid further punishment. (It all looks like there was a dog involved, I imagine he would then take it out on the owner. But that remains to be seen.)

Yeah, that's where I'm at as well.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I'd like to add, seems nobody noticed or remembered, Els recorded MC and her dad's talk while she was not there so she can listen what's been told behind her back. If this is not a red flag I don't know what is.

 

[arkypoub]

any time the MC speaks i get errors:

Full traceback:
File "game/gallery_mod/replays.rpy", line 1881, in script
mc "And what's got you so flustered?"
File "D:\Users\xxx\Downloads\TheUnbroken-Pt.6-pc-compressed (1)\TheUnbroken-Pt.6-pc-compressed\renpy\ast.py", line 678, in execute
who = eval_who(self.who, self.who_fast)
File "D:\Users\xxx\Downloads\TheUnbroken-Pt.6-pc-compressed (1)\TheUnbroken-Pt.6-pc-compressed\renpy\ast.py", line 576, in eval_who
raise Exception("Sayer '%s' is not defined." % who.encode("utf-8"))
Exception: Sayer 'mc' is not defined.

Ahhh! I think it's because you ran the gallery without playing the game before... I hadn't thought of that... I will add the possibility to modify your name in the gallery. So to fix your problem, you have to run the game at least once to enter your name (and then you can leave the game and go to the gallery).

 

[arkypoub]

any time the MC speaks i get errors:

Full traceback:
File "game/gallery_mod/replays.rpy", line 1881, in script
mc "And what's got you so flustered?"
File "D:\Users\xxx\Downloads\TheUnbroken-Pt.6-pc-compressed (1)\TheUnbroken-Pt.6-pc-compressed\renpy\ast.py", line 678, in execute
who = eval_who(self.who, self.who_fast)
File "D:\Users\xxx\Downloads\TheUnbroken-Pt.6-pc-compressed (1)\TheUnbroken-Pt.6-pc-compressed\renpy\ast.py", line 576, in eval_who
raise Exception("Sayer '%s' is not defined." % who.encode("utf-8"))
Exception: Sayer 'mc' is not defined.

Updated. You can input your name in the gallery now (first thumbnail).

 

[Quetzzz]

I'd like to add, seems nobody noticed or remembered, Els recorded MC and her dad's talk while she was not there so she can listen what's been told behind her back. If this is not a red flag I don't know what is.

I didn't pick up on this, it's easy to forget that Els does nothing without a reason, including leaving her purse at the table.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

A question, at the end of the game where dev thanks to others mentioned Sadie from Bare Witness was in the game, where was she?

 

[Krytax123]

A question, at the end of the game where dev thanks to others mentioned Sadie from Bare Witness was in the game, where was she?

shes a journalist at the press conference prior to valentines first fight and asks him questions

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

shes a journalist at the press conference prior to valentines first fight and asks him questions

Spoiler: How did I miss this?!

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[Krytax123]

For me, Kana explained it when she said (paraphrasing) that she has needs and that it's been a long time. They both were "in the moment".
With Els, who makes everything a game or a test, I'm not sure if it's just playing and teasing. Els is a lot more complicated than that, and we know she has serious issues with giving up control. (Note how catty and passive-aggressive she was right before Mallorca.)


I did. Because of this conversation I took a few Els paths to see how they played out, out of curiosity, then reloaded and went back to the choice I actually wanted to do.
When turning down Els, I wished the MC would have said above things to her. The way I see it, Valentine holds the cards. Els wants him, yet she's making him play her game.


That's a good call! He actually says as much to Vi. I didn't make that link, and thought it had to do with serious betrayal.


Yeah, that's where I'm at as well.

You're kinda sounding like you're (or your mc) is intimidated by her and her attitude which is exactly her problem and the reason shes lacking friends or love interrest in her past.

She likes to challange or even taunt valentine, its part of her being but she only does it because she knows that valentine can take it, wont back down and will challange her thoughts or views himself too. Its not unusual for females to desire a partner who's at least as strong/capable as themself.

But her actions never intend to hurt valentine, she just deeply cares not matter if shes in love or just a friend. She has a desire to help people or search for redemption.

And yeah shes pushing valentine to confront his issues while not being able to resolve her own issues. Shes obviously not able to, at least not on her own or not yet but sooner or later valentine will (has to imo) push her the same way to open up. Sometimes you need help to tackle your problems even when you dont feel like it.

And Els is the only one (maybe macnab too but different) who sees through him, he isnt/wasnt happy no matter how much he pretended at the start of the avn.

He (very) obviously has comittment issues, the only time he comitted to a woman ended in her being killed by his best friend which makes it reasonable for him to try to avoid feeling a loss like this again in the future and therefore limiting his own ability to love someone again.

Esp on the romance route its reasonable, Els isnt an easy going girl awaiting an uncertain outcome regarding to her relationship. Shes a serious woman and she wants valentine as her partner, him being able to love again seems like a goal which would benefit both of them and is nessecary for any kind of serious relationship.

 

[RoryTate]

Maybe we just see it differently, for me, a relationship is a cooperation. It's give and take. It actually sounds exhausting to have to compete with my partner.

When I said relationships were a game I was talking about the bigger picture, namely the game of overall mate selection within the sexual marketplace. We started off talking about the Vi and Els interaction where they discuss competing for the MC, and the way Els enjoyed playing the simple game of who gets chosen as a partner, and why other potential mates must therefore be considered "less compelling options". So that's why I said the "game" description was obvious and not meaningful in describing how Els approached that talk. And just as an aside, I do find that particular subject quite fascinating. Applying the concept of game theory to mating at the level of populations can be quite fun and insightful at times.

But yeah, Els does also make a relationship itself a game, which can indeed be frustrating because that kind of intimacy should be an equal partnership. So far it hasn't gotten out of hand and so it feels fine for the most part, to me at least. But I've been through enough "bullshit tests" to abhor that kind of treatment from someone who is supposed to care about me, so I can understand why people don't want to put up with it even for a second. In that context, your criticism of her is indeed warranted. Els needs to grow up a bit and hopefully not turn everything in a close relationship into a "dick measuring" contest. Best case scenario?...this is just the up front "courtship dance", and she mellows a lot once the MC proves his viability. Worst case scenario?...kick her to the curb.

You did somewhat mellow my initial frustration with Els. I'm not discounting her out of hand anymore, though I'm still very weary of her actions and motivations. I'm glad your view on her differs from mine, because it challenges me to dig a bit deeper, to find exactly what's bugging me. This might sound self-serving, I just really enjoy conversations like these.

I'm glad I might have smoothed out a few things about her that you interpreted differently. I actually took your criticism in good faith and wondered myself if there was anything about her story and actions that I might have missed. And because of what you and others have revealed I do realize that building a relationship with Els is going to be a lot more complicated and volatile than I had previously imagined. She's still "best girl" for me by a country mile, but I'm definitely more cautious and wary now than I used to be about her intentions.

Wow, it sounds like we both became more moderate – and grew closer – in our attitudes/opinions after discussing things like reasonable people. Huh. Imagine that.

I got curious and looked into the points certain choices give in the game's code.

Her trust score did indeed change strangely – and significantly in opposing directions! – with the choice of bite or no bite, which is interesting to consider. You know, that reminds me: the way Elspeth's trust and friendship points are getting distributed so far in the game feels a bit bizarre. There was a scene in an earlier chapter where the player needed trust > friendship to get on Els's romance path I think. And since then a lot of the "good" choices for her have increased her trust, while weirdly decreasing her friendship at the same time. I think this might be the dev's way of simulating the idea of "not being friend-zoned" by her. Though why trust always seems to be gained at the expense of friendship is strange. And this is an Els-only thing, since none of the other LIs has a "trust" variable, while all of them except Vi have a "friend" variable. Perhaps the "trust" score exists because Els wants to find people who challenge her and who she can learn and grow from being around? And so that trusted person, whether they end up being a romantic interest or not, cannot be a friend who always tries to say the "nice, friendly thing" to her?

Hmm. I just loaded up my Els-exclusive playthrough to take a peek at where her variables are right now, and I actually have her friendship score in the negative. It's strange to say it, but I don't think that's a bad thing in terms of building a relationship with her. It could be that it needs to be a minimum for some important future choice/path, but we'll see I guess.

If anything, it's a compliment to STWA for writing characters that actually have depth (I'm looking at you, My Bully is My Lover). I'm much the same, I enjoy the conversation and have gained many new insights that I wouldn't have come to on my own.

The greatest thing about the rise of independent media (YouTube, Bandcamp, F95zone, and so many others) are the enthusiastic communities that develop around those creations, and all the interesting interactions that can be had therein.

I'd like to add, seems nobody noticed or remembered, Els recorded MC and her dad's talk while she was not there so she can listen what's been told behind her back. If this is not a red flag I don't know what is.

I must admit, I didn't notice that. Now I'm going to have to go back and see what was said in that conversation, and understand what in the discussion would be so important to Els (other than that she was the topic of conversation of course). I guess it could just be the "control enthusiast" in her wanting every bit of information she can get her hands on, just in case it was useful somehow. Hard to say, especially considering her military intelligence background. Gathering intel when the opportunity presented itself could just be second nature to her at this point.

 

[RoryTate]

She was MI, Military Intelligence, and yet she challenges an SFO, Special Forces Operator, that she has seen or been in as much shit as he, that's ludicrous and a clear break with reality. MI's can get deployed to combat zones, to take statements, follow up on tips or debrief informants, but they don't get deployed into combat, that's not their training or their job. It CAN happen, but to say that she has seen as much action to someone who has trained local forces behind enemy lines is just bonkers.

I don't remember her saying that she had seen the same amount of "action" as the MC, though I can't recall the specific words, so I could be wrong about that. I think she only intimated that she had "experiences" that were comparable to his, or something like that. And I think she does have a valid point there. There is an important difference in the feeling of culpability for commanders, intelligence personnel, etc, who have to make decisions that cause the deaths of allies and friends, whereas a soldier only deals mostly with their responsibility for killing other enemy soldiers. Living daily with the knowledge that people you care about will die because of what you tell them to do, and inevitably making mistakes that cause large numbers of unneeded deaths among those who trusted you?...I can see that weighing quite heavily on someone's conscience, as compared to the simple "kill or be killed" of ground combat, where the ethical questions are far more black and white.

Spoiler: Speculation about Elspeth's secret

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[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I must admit, I didn't notice that. Now I'm going to have to go back and see what was said in that conversation, and understand what in the discussion would be so important to Els (other than that she was the topic of conversation of course). I guess it could just be the "control enthusiast" in her wanting every bit of information she can get her hands on, just in case it was useful somehow. Hard to say, especially considering her military intelligence background. Gathering intel when the opportunity presented itself could just be second nature to her at this point.

It's not what they talked though, it's what she did.
What they talked was basically MC saying Els did good with Centre you can trust with your money etc. and her father said I don't care about that I only came for my daughter etc. scene cuts there with implication there was more.

 

[Quetzzz]

You're kinda sounding like you're (or your mc) is intimidated by her and her attitude which is exactly her problem and the reason shes lacking friends or love interrest in her past.

She likes to challange or even taunt valentine, its part of her being but she only does it because she knows that valentine can take it, wont back down and will challange her thoughts or views himself too. Its not unusual for females to desire a partner who's at least as strong/capable as themself.

Intimidated isn't the right word. On his toes, maybe. My MC is very weary of Els' motivations because of all the reasons I've mentioned before. She's a master manipulator.
My issue with her isn't that she challenges Valentine, but that she doesn't follow through when Valentine challenges her.

But her actions never intend to hurt valentine, she just deeply cares not matter if shes in love or just a friend. She has a desire to help people or search for redemption.

I agree, never said otherwise. I might have my doubts on her motivation though.

And yeah shes pushing valentine to confront his issues while not being able to resolve her own issues. Shes obviously not able to, at least not on her own or not yet but sooner or later valentine will (has to imo) push her the same way to open up. Sometimes you need help to tackle your problems even when you dont feel like it.

And that's the crux of my issues with her. Els should've made a choice. In the pool, either she should've kissed Valentine, or break his walls. Not both. She muddied the waters. My impression was that she got off on the confrontation, and her "afraid of a little domestic?" (paraphrasing) in Mallorca reinforces that feeling I have about her.

And Els is the only one (maybe macnab too but different) who sees through him, he isnt/wasnt happy no matter how much he pretended at the start of the avn.

Devil's advocate... But is she really seeing through him, or is she seeing things in Valentine that aren't there? If we use some meta reasoning, and consider that Els is 100% right about Valentine... Then no other Love Interest would have a shot, Els would be the perfect partner. Obviously that isn't the case, which means Els is fallible. We don't have to take her on her word. She could be wrong about Valentine.

He (very) obviously has comittment issues, the only time he comitted to a woman ended in her being killed by his best friend which makes it reasonable for him to try to avoid feeling a loss like this again in the future and therefore limiting his own ability to love someone again.

I don't think he's afraid of commitment. The Centre, training Amrit, becoming a champion... All of those are huge commitments. Valentine himself says it at a certain point, he discovered that women just threw them at him, and he lost himself and made bad choices. All things considered, he just wasn't over Zaida yet, not ready to actually love and be emotionally open with a partner. He's clearly working on that now, though.

Esp on the romance route its reasonable, Els isnt an easy going girl awaiting an uncertain outcome regarding to her relationship. Shes a serious woman and she wants valentine as her partner, him being able to love again seems like a goal which would benefit both of them and is nessecary for any kind of serious relationship.

It's funny, I'm thinking the same, but draw the opposite conclusion. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds to me like you're saying "She wants the perfect partner in Valentine, so she's making sure to help him.". I think I'll like Els a lot more on the friendship path, where she'll help Valentine unconditionally, not because she stands to gain from it. ;-)

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

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I don't think so, she did not know MC before they met in London long after the events, she was part of UK forces and it was a secret US operation involving secret service not a joint operation, McNab and local insurgents was involved through MC. Also I don't think Elspeth would operate on guilt. It also does not explain about her death friend, or her visions etc.

Still we need to wait and see but my bet, she has some issues coming from childhood or even from birth and that somehow got killed her elder brother then she tried to fill his shoes and went to military for various reasons but not for her guilt. She started over there and caused someone's death, most probable one is that Anastasia girl. So she had to leave military too and now she is doing rinse&repeat thing with MC. If I am somehow correct, then one of the MC&Elspeth ending will involve death within.

Also everyone missing an IMO important point. Davis' death. We know Davis was not for marrying, characters mentioned a few times that, suddenly getting married with a mysterious lady. Iirc, taking the ferry was her idea. Then someone, previous MC, mentioned sinking of the ferry was a sabotage not an accident. Someone snooping after MC and most likely they snooped after McNab because they knew his military involvements. They are getting in&out of MC's house too, so they are serious about what are they doing. I think what's going on that front will be huge but I can't even speculate what is going on.

 

[TimHawk]

Still we need to wait and see but my bet, she has some issues coming from childhood or even from birth and that somehow got killed her elder brother then she tried to fill his shoes and went to military for various reasons but not for her guilt. She started over there and caused someone's death, most probable one is that Anastasia girl. So she had to leave military too and now she is doing rinse&repeat thing with MC. If I am somehow correct, then one of the MC&Elspeth ending will involve death within.

Or she was either there when Anastasia was killed and then killed her murderer or she used her ressources to find out who it was and then took the murderer out herself. The blood pattern we see in her fantasies suggests that she didn't use a gun from long range either, so maybe close combat with a knife. Instead of feeling guilty or shocked to have taken a life, she loved every second of it, and now she can't get the memory out of her head.

I'm a sucker for bad endings, so I hope the developer has something really fucked up in store.

 

[Quetzzz]

When I said relationships were a game I was talking about the bigger picture, namely the game of overall mate selection within the sexual marketplace. We started off talking about the Vi and Els interaction where they discuss competing for the MC, and the way Els enjoyed playing the simple game of who gets chosen as a partner, and why other potential mates must therefore be considered "less compelling options". So that's why I said the "game" description was obvious and not meaningful in describing how Els approached that talk. And just as an aside, I do find that particular subject quite fascinating. Applying the concept of game theory to mating at the level of populations can be quite fun and insightful at times.

Right, I get what you mean now. In that context I agree, the "dating game", testing boundaries, etc... That's part of it.
And yes, game theory can (somewhat) be applied to relationships. We all -in our own way- reward behavior we like, and discourage behavior we don't. We just don't always go about it in healthy or thought-out ways. At a very high level view, relationships are skinner boxes. It's also very easy learn some Pavlovian responses during long term relationships. In my experience, those are also the hardest to get rid of afterward.

But yeah, Els does also make a relationship itself a game, which can indeed be frustrating because that kind of intimacy should be an equal partnership. So far it hasn't gotten out of hand and so it feels fine for the most part, to me at least. But I've been through enough "bullshit tests" to abhor that kind of treatment from someone who is supposed to care about me, so I can understand why people don't want to put up with it even for a second. In that context, your criticism of her is indeed warranted. Els needs to grow up a bit and hopefully not turn everything in a close relationship into a "dick measuring" contest. Best case scenario?...this is just the up front "courtship dance", and she mellows a lot once the MC proves his viability. Worst case scenario?...kick her to the curb.

This is something I'm considering as well. It's possible that Els is looking for the guy that can dominate/tame her.

I'm glad I might have smoothed out a few things about her that you interpreted differently. I actually took your criticism in good faith and wondered myself if there was anything about her story and actions that I might have missed. And because of what you and others have revealed I do realize that building a relationship with Els is going to be a lot more complicated and volatile than I had previously imagined. She's still "best girl" for me by a country mile, but I'm definitely more cautious and wary now than I used to be about her intentions.

Wow, it sounds like we both became more moderate – and grew closer – in our attitudes/opinions after discussing things like reasonable people. Huh. Imagine that.

What a novel concept! I'm new here, but I'm really liking this forum. I probably would've posted on reddit otherwise, and I doubt I'd have gotten this quality of interaction there. So, thank you!

Her trust score did indeed change strangely – and significantly in opposing directions! – with the choice of bite or no bite, which is interesting to consider. You know, that reminds me: the way Elspeth's trust and friendship points are getting distributed so far in the game feels a bit bizarre. There was a scene in an earlier chapter where the player needed trust > friendship to get on Els's romance path I think. And since then a lot of the "good" choices for her have increased her trust, while weirdly decreasing her friendship at the same time. I think this might be the dev's way of simulating the idea of "not being friend-zoned" by her. Though why trust always seems to be gained at the expense of friendship is strange. And this is an Els-only thing, since none of the other LIs has a "trust" variable, while all of them except Vi have a "friend" variable. Perhaps the "trust" score exists because Els wants to find people who challenge her and who she can learn and grow from being around? And so that trusted person, whether they end up being a romantic interest or not, cannot be a friend who always tries to say the "nice, friendly thing" to her?

I haven't looked into the points in much detail, my general impression was that 'trust' was used when Els shared something personal. Decreasing friendship is the same as increasing love, though. Since for most other checks it's about love > friendship. Still, it's an interesting observation, and you might very well be right that this is a meta-message from the author.
I think Els' trust variable is directly related to how close she is to sharing her secrets with Valentine. And, piggybacking on your observation, maybe that secret is so big, that it would be impossible to just stay friends once shared.

Hmm. I just loaded up my Els-exclusive playthrough to take a peek at where her variables are right now, and I actually have her friendship score in the negative. It's strange to say it, but I don't think that's a bad thing in terms of building a relationship with her. It could be that it needs to be a minimum for some important future choice/path, but we'll see I guess.

Yeah, that might be the case. Still, very interesting!

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Or she was either there when Anastasia was killed and then killed her murderer or she used her ressources to find out who it was and then took the murderer out herself. The blood pattern we see in her fantasies suggests that she didn't use a gun from long range either, so maybe close combat with a knife. Instead of feeling guilty or shocked to have taken a life, she loved every second of it, and now she can't get the memory out of her head.

I'm a sucker for bad endings, so I hope the developer has something really fucked up in store.

I wouldn't say no to darker turns tbh.