- Aug 5, 2016
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Don't read too much into it. Elspeth is infatuated with the MC and she won't stop until she has what she wants. Being that the MC secrets or his love.
- May 8, 2022
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I love how you guys theorycraft but maybe she just had infatuation at first sight and having this need for control already know about valentine enough to find him worthy, or the more she gets to knows him.
is turning almost into an obsession...
- May 15, 2018
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I don't see how she can have fundamentally different opinions about privacy as compared to both McNab and the MC, but somehow ignore that disagreement for one and not the other. There has to be something distinct about the MC that creates her desire for him in the first place, or you're falling into a chicken and egg paradox here.
At a base level though I don't agree that we know enough to say that Els is infatuated and is just acting "to get what she wants". I know the intelligence gathering has been presented to the reader as potentially being done for selfish reasons, via the contextless glimpses into it that we are given. And those motivations could indeed be part of the reason for her actions. However, her efforts could turn out to be important in keeping the MC and those around him safe from harm. We don't know what went down when Zaina died, whether Davis is still alive or not, or anything about the ex-prison fighter who the "I Hate This Fucking Guy" promoter has gunning for the MC, and so many other potential dangers that are lurking in the background. Those could just as easily be the reason for Els's digging.
What I do see though is what Els is not doing in the story, and those choices do lead me to seriously question the assumption that she is a threat. A truly obsessed woman would be sabotaging and destroying the other love interests whom she saw as an obstacle to her winning the MC. Even if she thought herself so much more attractive and untouchable compared to them (as others have suggested is the reason she is not destroying the others' chances), that level of ego and narcissism would still not stand for the MC giving any attention and interest to other women. So when I see Els treating Vi, Amrit, Serena, and Kana with respect and support, I respond positively and think she's generally a good person. Not perfect, mind you, but so far she appears to be a decent human being at least, and I'll wait to see what explanation is given for the secrecy behind her other actions before concluding anything further.
- Jun 8, 2021
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Yeah, it doesn't really make sense to word it like that.
That was my kinda my idea as well. Though, as you say, we don't know much about McNab in that regard, about his time in the military etc.
Idk, it just felt significant to me, almost deal-breaking.
- May 15, 2018
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Well, we know that he was the one who stopped the MC from killing Davis over Zaina's death, so I guess there are a few indications that McNab doesn't have a violent nature, or at least that he isn't as hotheaded as the MC and Els sometimes are.
- Aug 5, 2016
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I don't think she has selfish motivations to dig on MC's past. I think she's trying to help him even if the MC doesn't want any help. Is that the right thing to do? No, but I hope we get some answers about why she acts like that in future updates.
Both Elspeth and MC have that in common, they try help other people.
- Dec 29, 2018
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Isn't that what she's been doing with Katie?
Elspeth has been trying to keep her from getting together with the MC by telling both of them that it would be unprofessional for them to mix business and pleasure. Of course, her rules don't apply to herself, as Elspeth has been shamelessly throwing herself at the main character for the entire game now.
- Mar 1, 2023
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Just a little custom I did this month Vampire hunters Elspeth and Lyndie!
Added 12,000ish words of script. Puts me at around 47,000. Looks like I'll be finishing up the first draft of script sometime next week. Then I'll have to run through and do some trimming and editing, the usual stuff.
Got a decent jump on posing and rendering. Have the first 180 or so renders finished up and ready to rumble. There's some scenes this update that I'm really looking forward to doing. They'll be stretching some creative muscles I haven't had a chance to stretch yet. I'm really excited to see how they turn out.
That's it for today, just another week of the usual dev work. Thanks to everybody who showed up at the art stream on Sunday, hope you enjoyed.
Thanks as always for the support and I hope you have a lovely upcoming weekend.
Sláinte!
- May 15, 2018
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mc "Spending time with me means there's a chance people will catch you in photos."
mc "And given my rather 'colorful' reputation, a photo of me going to your place alone might invite speculation."
Kafton "I hadn't even thought of that."
Kafton "I'll find another place. Thanks for thinking of that."
Katie does make mention of Els cock-blocking her if she fails to seduce the MC, but it's interesting to note that there is no conversation in-game (that I can find at least, please correct me if I'm wrong here) between Els and the MC about keeping away from Katie. Whether Els has indeed talked to Katie is not confirmed, and it could just be that Katie has noticed how Els is attracted to the MC and so she is using the "stay professional" dictum as an excuse.
Anyway, if we do accept that this "stay away from the staff and clients" rule has been established by Els via Katie's words, then I think the main motivation here is obvious: Els is simply trying to protect the Centre. Valentine's reputation and bad press could destroy what they've built. Recall what Els says to Kana: "Can I just tell you how lovely it is to have a woman come in here, who isn't furious that he hasn't called her back after a night of passion.". Els knows that sleazy drama about Valentine's sexual exploits sells newspapers. Just one photo and sensational article about how Valentine is taking advantage of emotionally vulnerable female veterans, suggesting that the people running the Centre have been turning a blind eye to his womanizing and predatory behaviour, and whether that's true or not the Centre is likely going to have to cut ties with him to try and salvage future donations (the variable katiesflat is set to True or False when the above conversation with Katie happens about the potential for a sordid photo being taken of them together, so this decision to be seen with Katie may come back to haunt the MC).
Els isn't an emotionally vulnerable veteran coming to the Centre for support, and she knows how to keep secrets, so she is different. I think these "professional rules" (if they exist) are reasonably consistent in her mind, and to be honest, I can't argue with her conclusion if that is the case.
Also, Katie clearly isn't a serious rival to Els for the MC's attention. Katie herself says she's just a side piece, and she doesn't want anything more than sex ("We are not a couple. We aren't trying to become a couple. If we start dating somebody else, this is over."). Els barely notices Katie in any of their interactions. I mean, compare her complete professionalism around Katie to how Els views Kana and Vi, who both get various levels of appreciation from Els (with Kana, it even approaches heights that can only be termed eye "grape" when Els has a high love score, and Els pantomimes boob-squeezing Kana when she has a high friendship score). None of that happens with Katie. She's just played off as some dumb and risky indiscretion if the MC "banged the baker".
- Dec 29, 2018
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Of course she wouldn't flat out say it. That would require her to be upfront, honest, and sincere. That's just not her style. Elspeth would much rather use excuses, half-truths, or flat out lies.
The fact that Katie will say "Elspeth might be furious about this" when you choose to kiss her means that Elspeth has done something to let Katie know that she doesn't approve of them getting together. What excatly that was isn't all that important. It's her motivations that matter.
Sure, you can try to give her every benefit of the doubt possible and pretend that Elspeth just had the best interests of the organization at heart. But if that were the case, she wouldn't risk putting herself in the tabloids either. And yet, she's getting into drunken brawls on a public beach. That wouldn't be a good look for them either would it? And she knows it too, because she's the one that calls your lawyer to do damage control.
She's also ditching her volunteer work to go swimming around in a translucent bikini in yet another shameless attempt to catch his eye. The idea that she knows how to keep a secret is laughable when damn near every girl keeps asking you if you are just friends with her. Everyone knows she's got the hots for him. She's embarassingly transparent when it comes to her and him. There's no way she'd ever be able to keep that realtionship a secret.
Hold up a minute.... don't you think that could also be used as an example of Elspeth trying to keep a potential rival from going after the main character? She's literally trash talking him to her about how much of a heartbreaking womanizer he is.
Listen, I've got no problem admitting that I'm quick to see the worst in Elspeth. I'm completely sick of her. We've had over two dozen choices in this game about Elspeth, and I've done my absolute best to choose every single one that would keep her away from me. But the game doesn't care. It's pushing her as hard as that awful secretary from the previous game, and I'm just as irritated about it now as I was back then. But even if I'm judging her harshly, there is still no way that all of these questionable scenarios are going to fall in her favour.
Elspeth and the MC aren't that close. He was surprised to see Elspeth had a photo of him, because he thought they were both friends of Alistair more so than friends of each other. And yet, Elspeth is obsessed with him. She's doing all sorts of creepy shit like secretly recording his private conversations, and turning normal conversations into fishing expeditions. So why should we give her the benefit of the doubt all the time? He's known Elspeth for less than a year, and yet she thinks that she knows him better than Viridiana.
Viri: You're doubting me? I've known him the longest.
Els: With a nine year gap in the middle. People change a lot Gingersnap.
Here's one of those questionable scenarios. You have to ask yourself if this is simply an innocent question from Elspeth, or if she's trying to sow doubt in Viridiana's mind that maybe the MC is no longer the person she once loved. The latter seems kind of far-fetched at first doesn't it? But from this conversation we see Elspeth learn about the MC's love of fighting and how it got him closer with Viri's brother, and then a very short while later we see Elspeth eagerly get into a fight alongside the MC and will then blatantly try to seduce him that night.
I don't trust Elspeth any further than I could throw her. I'd also like to point out that the main character himself doesn't trust Elspeth either, as seen in one of his internal monologues with his memory of a lost love.
Zania: She hides it well. Better than you, even. But that is an incredibly dangerous woman.
MC: She's a pacifist, hardly even raises her voice with people.
Zania: Is she? Well, maybe she is exactly what she claims. But if something about her wasn't bothering you, would we even be having this conversation?
Deep down he knows that she's a fraud.
- Sep 29, 2023
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Even remembering this scene raises the hairs on my neck.
Edit: Even more if you pick a horror movie, and Els is looking giddy.
- May 15, 2018
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Not necessarily. Katie could just think that Els will be mad at her because Katie knows that Els is in love with the MC. Consider the following:
Kafton "Uncool of Elspeth to cock-block me like this."
mc "What does she have to do with this?"
mc "Besides the whole mixing pleasure with business thing."
mc "Which really should just be expected from me."
Kafton "Are you serious?"
Kafton "You can't possibly ... ?"
Kafton "You're right. You are dense."
mc "Now I'm curious."
Kafton "Ask her. I don't get in the middle of other people's business."
In this conversation and others, they both independently reference the need to act professional when deciding to get it on or not, but they never give any indication as to where that instruction came from (it could have been from Els, but it could have been from Serena, or some other person in HR...we simply don't know the source of this mandate, only that Els will be one of the people disappointed in their unprofessional behaviour). Otherwise, Katie only seems to see Els's love for the MC as influencing his decision, but when he is too dense to realize that she likes him, and that other people know about this attraction, that shocks her and she doesn't understand why he refuses any more.
You know, the more I think about it, the more this Katie stuff seems so nebulous that it's almost meaningless. She's a side piece, and is likely just placed in the story for pacing, considering how long some of the main relationships take to develop. So it's not really worth delving into in detail.
That's a fair point. Els getting into a fight with drunks outside of a bar does risk the reputation of the Centre. Though I would argue it is not anywhere near as sensational and damaging as a sex scandal involving the MC. Getting drunk and throwing a few punches is just a night ending in "Y" for many celebrities, and no one thinks much of that kind of rowdy behaviour. It certainly wouldn't have a major effect on donations to a veteran's charity in my mind. Still, it does show that Els is more than a little willful and spoiled, in how she uses her power and influence at times to do what she wants and to get away with it. The way she talked with Serena suggests to me that she knew that it would get handled without any problems for the Centre. And I don't doubt if Serena couldn't handle it that Els had other ways to influence matters to her liking.
This might be her trying to push Kana away, but the truth is that's not the way most women work when it comes to deciding whether they find men attractive or not. Women tend to like men more when they think other women find that man attractive. This is one of the reasons a wedding ring is sometimes called a "chick magnet". Or why having "wing girls" can be a successful dating strategy. To truly push Kana away, Els should instead say something like: "That's unusual. Women don't really come by to see [mc] much anymore.". Social proofing is a very powerful influence on human behaviours, and making the MC seem unwanted and undesirable would be the best strategy to lessen Kana's interest if Els was truly trying to cock-block other women.
Now this information could make Kana less trustworthy of any commitments to her that the MC makes, so while the comment likely makes Kana more interested in having sex with him, I think it does reasonably set up some obstacles to Kana and the MC forming a long-term bond. But we must then ask if Els is telling the truth here or not. From what I can tell from the story and MC's reaction to her words, there have been women he hasn't called back after a night of passionate sex, and who have stalked him back to his volunteer activities to try and get a second date with him. So if that's the truth – and it seems likely it is – then Kana should reasonably be aware of his reputation, at least if the MC doesn't want to lie to her about himself.
I interpret this as Els giving Vi some very helpful and useful advice on how to understand and properly pursue the MC. The unfortunate fact is that Vi still sees the MC as a knight in shining armour. She looks at him with the eyes of a lovesick schoolgirl who still hasn't lost her virginity. I doubt she even has the ability to understand how much she doesn't know about the complex and flawed (broken?) man he's become. Or honestly, that he's always been, because no man can ever live up to that kind of childish delusion. The MC is Vi's first crush, and so he's perfect in her eyes. IMO, Els is absolutely right to warn Vi about not knowing him. Simply put, Vi has a lot of growing up to do, or else if the MC chooses her, they are going to have a very rough time of it when he very quickly needs her support, and she can't handle the revelation that there are gaping holes in that perfect armour she imagines him wearing.
Els really is the group's big sister in many ways.
- Jun 8, 2021
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That all sounds quite one-sided. MC already has a reputation, so far it hasn't hurt the centre.
A big sister doesn't behave like she does, during the beach conversation with Vi. "So you do have a price", "Info for Info". And of course, after Vi opens up, Els deflects and in the end doesn't give Vi any info at all.
She warns to Vi of having an idolized image of her childhood protector, but at the same time has a very fixed image of MC herself ("like looking in a mirror", "seeing right through you"). That comes after knowing him personally for about a year, without having spent much 1on1 time.
A big sister doesn't behave like she does, during the beach conversation with Vi. "So you do have a price", "Info for Info". And of course, after Vi opens up, Els deflects and in the end doesn't give Vi any info at all.
She warns to Vi of having an idolized image of her childhood protector, but at the same time has a very fixed image of MC herself ("like looking in a mirror", "seeing right through you"). That comes after knowing him personally for about a year, without having spent much 1on1 time.
- Sep 29, 2023
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I think Els' path will come down to the choice, if the player believes Els' profiling of the MC, or not. If Els is right about everything, then she and Valentine will be very happy together, revelling in violence and blood sports (Like she taunts Valentine about being afraid of a "little domestic"). If the player rejects the idea that Valentine has a hard-on for violence, then Els is wrong. It's much like the Face vs. Heel choices. In some ways, Els wants Valentine to have the personality of the Face, but the lust for violence of the Heel.
- May 15, 2018
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The MC's name isn't a draw for the Centre though. He's just a volunteer there, and he contributes funding. That's all. So the papers would only associate him with his famous MMA career when writing about his sordid affairs. That is, unless the scandal involved someone from the Centre. Then the leadership would be accused of enabling his (perceived) predatory behaviour, and things could go pear-shaped real fast.
I thought Els opened up quite a bit in that conversation (especially if Els and the MC didn't have the pool heart-to-heart talk, and Els shares the following with Vi: "I've sat around and told myself that there was nothing I could do to help somebody before. It didn't make me feel better when the worst happened."), but to each his own I guess. The real problem here though is you've left out all the good advice Els gives Vi to be direct with the MC about her feelings, and to not have any regrets about not declaring that she's interested to him. Els pushes Vi to fight for what she wants, and Vi responds by doing exactly that in their picnic discussion. And later that day Vi decides she's ready to go all the way with the MC. This very adult – and important! – decision can be tied back to Els's push to be more active in pursuing him. How does this level of direct competition from Vi help Els's chances at winning the MC's affection?
e "You're going to have to get over that, you know?"
e "If you don't express how you feel to him, I doubt he'll ever figure it out on his own."
e "And there are others who might not be as reticent about doing what you seem to be afraid of."
v "I'm not afraid."
v "Not of that, and especially not of you."
e "Much better."
I really thought this was a nice scene, and that the two redheads became a lot closer because of it.
Look, Els can be annoying, pushy, arrogant, double-tongued...I get why some readers don't like her. Even fans like myself suspect her obsession with the MC will turn out to have some very unhealthy motivations behind it. I just don't like how people today are either lionized or demonized, with no in between offered or considered. If there's nothing she can do that isn't interpreted negatively, then the real problem unfortunately lies elsewhere. She has to be able to theoretically say: "You win, gingersnap. You're the better fit for [mc]. Congratulations." and genuinely act on that, without a spat of: "She's planning something nasty, watch out!" reactions.
- Sep 29, 2023
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This is something you actually changed my mind on a while back, because Vi does take her advice to heart. (Not sure how this plays out with viFamily > viLove though)
- May 8, 2022
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As always very insightful read on Els path hoping to have a infamy Els playthrough as the Mc ponders he needs to be better to deserve Vi puppy love.
Nevertheless Els is a very interesting LI and we need to accept that she is smart and Mc is a step behind her. Their dynamic is unique as LI normally goes.
She could easily destroy Valentine if she wanted and this danger irks some readers. Rightfully so.
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- May 15, 2018
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I'll put it in a spoiler tag in case you or anyone else is wanting to play through with vifamily > vilove, but at a high level what happens is that Vi gives Els a bit of a taste of her own medicine.
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- Jun 8, 2021
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I'm not talking about a playthrough where both are fighting for MC's affection. I guess I'm on friendship path with both (haven't kissed any of them yet). I never got the scene you describe. Vi talks about how MC was back in the day, then Els opens up, which I admit is something (though no info directly related to MC). I haven't looked at the code yet, will do after I finish my 2nd playthrough. That's why I found it quite strange Els started the convo like that, because there's arguably no need to.
I'm not demonizing her. Like I said, I find her character and the role she plays in the story very interesting. Do I like her personality? Eh, so-so, but that doesn't really matter. I was just slightly objecting to calling her a 'big sister' (she thinks of herself as one, too). While there's nothing wrong per se with the advice she gives, the 'how' can be questioned. There are still some question marks about her motivation.
Eh, I wouldn't go that far, yet. I'm not sure about revelling in violence. Iirc Els once said something along the lines of 'if you [MC] can't be helped, then all the others are lost". I think it might depend a lot on how much MC will open up about his struggles, which in turn will help Els.