VN Ren'Py STWA: Unbroken [Pt. 7] [STWAdev]

[RoryTate]

Isn't that what she's been doing with Katie?

Elspeth has been trying to keep her from getting together with the MC by telling both of them that it would be unprofessional for them to mix business and pleasure. Of course, her rules don't apply to herself, as Elspeth has been shamelessly throwing herself at the main character for the entire game now.

mc "Spending time with me means there's a chance people will catch you in photos."
mc "And given my rather 'colorful' reputation, a photo of me going to your place alone might invite speculation."
Kafton "I hadn't even thought of that."
Kafton "I'll find another place. Thanks for thinking of that."

Katie does make mention of Els cock-blocking her if she fails to seduce the MC, but it's interesting to note that there is no conversation in-game (that I can find at least, please correct me if I'm wrong here) between Els and the MC about keeping away from Katie. Whether Els has indeed talked to Katie is not confirmed, and it could just be that Katie has noticed how Els is attracted to the MC and so she is using the "stay professional" dictum as an excuse.

Anyway, if we do accept that this "stay away from the staff and clients" rule has been established by Els via Katie's words, then I think the main motivation here is obvious: Els is simply trying to protect the Centre. Valentine's reputation and bad press could destroy what they've built. Recall what Els says to Kana: "Can I just tell you how lovely it is to have a woman come in here, who isn't furious that he hasn't called her back after a night of passion.". Els knows that sleazy drama about Valentine's sexual exploits sells newspapers. Just one photo and sensational article about how Valentine is taking advantage of emotionally vulnerable female veterans, suggesting that the people running the Centre have been turning a blind eye to his womanizing and predatory behaviour, and whether that's true or not the Centre is likely going to have to cut ties with him to try and salvage future donations (the variable katiesflat is set to True or False when the above conversation with Katie happens about the potential for a sordid photo being taken of them together, so this decision to be seen with Katie may come back to haunt the MC).

Els isn't an emotionally vulnerable veteran coming to the Centre for support, and she knows how to keep secrets, so she is different. I think these "professional rules" (if they exist) are reasonably consistent in her mind, and to be honest, I can't argue with her conclusion if that is the case.

Also, Katie clearly isn't a serious rival to Els for the MC's attention. Katie herself says she's just a side piece, and she doesn't want anything more than sex ("We are not a couple. We aren't trying to become a couple. If we start dating somebody else, this is over."). Els barely notices Katie in any of their interactions. I mean, compare her complete professionalism around Katie to how Els views Kana and Vi, who both get various levels of appreciation from Els (with Kana, it even approaches heights that can only be termed eye "grape" when Els has a high love score, and Els pantomimes boob-squeezing Kana when she has a high friendship score). None of that happens with Katie. She's just played off as some dumb and risky indiscretion if the MC "banged the baker".

 

[Alfred the Fallen]

Katie does make mention of Els cock-blocking her if she fails to seduce the MC, but it's interesting to note that there is no conversation in-game (that I can find at least, please correct me if I'm wrong here) between Els and the MC about keeping away from Katie.

Of course she wouldn't flat out say it. That would require her to be upfront, honest, and sincere. That's just not her style. Elspeth would much rather use excuses, half-truths, or flat out lies.

The fact that Katie will say "Elspeth might be furious about this" when you choose to kiss her means that Elspeth has done something to let Katie know that she doesn't approve of them getting together. What excatly that was isn't all that important. It's her motivations that matter.

Sure, you can try to give her every benefit of the doubt possible and pretend that Elspeth just had the best interests of the organization at heart. But if that were the case, she wouldn't risk putting herself in the tabloids either. And yet, she's getting into drunken brawls on a public beach. That wouldn't be a good look for them either would it? And she knows it too, because she's the one that calls your lawyer to do damage control.

She's also ditching her volunteer work to go swimming around in a translucent bikini in yet another shameless attempt to catch his eye. The idea that she knows how to keep a secret is laughable when damn near every girl keeps asking you if you are just friends with her. Everyone knows she's got the hots for him. She's embarassingly transparent when it comes to her and him. There's no way she'd ever be able to keep that realtionship a secret.

Recall what Els says to Kana: "Can I just tell you how lovely it is to have a woman come in here, who isn't furious that he hasn't called her back after a night of passion."

Hold up a minute.... don't you think that could also be used as an example of Elspeth trying to keep a potential rival from going after the main character? She's literally trash talking him to her about how much of a heartbreaking womanizer he is.

Listen, I've got no problem admitting that I'm quick to see the worst in Elspeth. I'm completely sick of her. We've had over two dozen choices in this game about Elspeth, and I've done my absolute best to choose every single one that would keep her away from me. But the game doesn't care. It's pushing her as hard as that awful secretary from the previous game, and I'm just as irritated about it now as I was back then. But even if I'm judging her harshly, there is still no way that all of these questionable scenarios are going to fall in her favour.

Elspeth and the MC aren't that close. He was surprised to see Elspeth had a photo of him, because he thought they were both friends of Alistair more so than friends of each other. And yet, Elspeth is obsessed with him. She's doing all sorts of creepy shit like secretly recording his private conversations, and turning normal conversations into fishing expeditions. So why should we give her the benefit of the doubt all the time? He's known Elspeth for less than a year, and yet she thinks that she knows him better than Viridiana.

Viri: You're doubting me? I've known him the longest.
Els: With a nine year gap in the middle. People change a lot Gingersnap.

Here's one of those questionable scenarios. You have to ask yourself if this is simply an innocent question from Elspeth, or if she's trying to sow doubt in Viridiana's mind that maybe the MC is no longer the person she once loved. The latter seems kind of far-fetched at first doesn't it? But from this conversation we see Elspeth learn about the MC's love of fighting and how it got him closer with Viri's brother, and then a very short while later we see Elspeth eagerly get into a fight alongside the MC and will then blatantly try to seduce him that night.

I don't trust Elspeth any further than I could throw her. I'd also like to point out that the main character himself doesn't trust Elspeth either, as seen in one of his internal monologues with his memory of a lost love.

Zania: She hides it well. Better than you, even. But that is an incredibly dangerous woman.
MC: She's a pacifist, hardly even raises her voice with people.
Zania: Is she? Well, maybe she is exactly what she claims. But if something about her wasn't bothering you, would we even be having this conversation?

Deep down he knows that she's a fraud.

 

[Quetzzz]

Zania: She hides it well. Better than you, even. But that is an incredibly dangerous woman.
MC: She's a pacifist, hardly even raises her voice with people.
Zania: Is she? Well, maybe she is exactly what she claims. But if something about her wasn't bothering you, would we even be having this conversation?

Even remembering this scene raises the hairs on my neck.
Edit: Even more if you pick a horror movie, and Els is looking giddy.

 

[RoryTate]

The fact that Katie will say "Elspeth might be furious about this" when you choose to kiss her means that Elspeth has done something to let Katie know that she doesn't approve of them getting together.

Not necessarily. Katie could just think that Els will be mad at her because Katie knows that Els is in love with the MC. Consider the following:

Kafton "Uncool of Elspeth to cock-block me like this."
mc "What does she have to do with this?"
mc "Besides the whole mixing pleasure with business thing."
mc "Which really should just be expected from me."
Kafton "Are you serious?"
Kafton "You can't possibly ... ?"
Kafton "You're right. You are dense."
mc "Now I'm curious."
Kafton "Ask her. I don't get in the middle of other people's business."

In this conversation and others, they both independently reference the need to act professional when deciding to get it on or not, but they never give any indication as to where that instruction came from (it could have been from Els, but it could have been from Serena, or some other person in HR...we simply don't know the source of this mandate, only that Els will be one of the people disappointed in their unprofessional behaviour). Otherwise, Katie only seems to see Els's love for the MC as influencing his decision, but when he is too dense to realize that she likes him, and that other people know about this attraction, that shocks her and she doesn't understand why he refuses any more.

You know, the more I think about it, the more this Katie stuff seems so nebulous that it's almost meaningless. She's a side piece, and is likely just placed in the story for pacing, considering how long some of the main relationships take to develop. So it's not really worth delving into in detail.

Sure, you can try to give her every benefit of the doubt possible and pretend that Elspeth just had the best interests of the organization at heart. But if that were the case, she wouldn't risk putting herself in the tabloids either. And yet, she's getting into drunken brawls on a public beach. That wouldn't be a good look for them either would it? And she knows it too, because she's the one that calls your lawyer to do damage control.

That's a fair point. Els getting into a fight with drunks outside of a bar does risk the reputation of the Centre. Though I would argue it is not anywhere near as sensational and damaging as a sex scandal involving the MC. Getting drunk and throwing a few punches is just a night ending in "Y" for many celebrities, and no one thinks much of that kind of rowdy behaviour. It certainly wouldn't have a major effect on donations to a veteran's charity in my mind. Still, it does show that Els is more than a little willful and spoiled, in how she uses her power and influence at times to do what she wants and to get away with it. The way she talked with Serena suggests to me that she knew that it would get handled without any problems for the Centre. And I don't doubt if Serena couldn't handle it that Els had other ways to influence matters to her liking.

Hold up a minute.... don't you think that could also be used as an example of Elspeth trying to keep a potential rival from going after the main character? She's literally trash talking him to her about how much of a heartbreaking womanizer he is.

This might be her trying to push Kana away, but the truth is that's not the way most women work when it comes to deciding whether they find men attractive or not. Women tend to like men more when they think other women find that man attractive. This is one of the reasons a wedding ring is sometimes called a "chick magnet". Or why having "wing girls" can be a successful dating strategy. To truly push Kana away, Els should instead say something like: "That's unusual. Women don't really come by to see [mc] much anymore.". Social proofing is a very powerful influence on human behaviours, and making the MC seem unwanted and undesirable would be the best strategy to lessen Kana's interest if Els was truly trying to cock-block other women.

Now this information could make Kana less trustworthy of any commitments to her that the MC makes, so while the comment likely makes Kana more interested in having sex with him, I think it does reasonably set up some obstacles to Kana and the MC forming a long-term bond. But we must then ask if Els is telling the truth here or not. From what I can tell from the story and MC's reaction to her words, there have been women he hasn't called back after a night of passionate sex, and who have stalked him back to his volunteer activities to try and get a second date with him. So if that's the truth – and it seems likely it is – then Kana should reasonably be aware of his reputation, at least if the MC doesn't want to lie to her about himself.

Viri: You're doubting me? I've known him the longest.
Els: With a nine year gap in the middle. People change a lot Gingersnap.

Here's one of those questionable scenarios. You have to ask yourself if this is simply an innocent question from Elspeth, or if she's trying to sow doubt in Viridiana's mind that maybe the MC is no longer the person she once loved.

I interpret this as Els giving Vi some very helpful and useful advice on how to understand and properly pursue the MC. The unfortunate fact is that Vi still sees the MC as a knight in shining armour. She looks at him with the eyes of a lovesick schoolgirl who still hasn't lost her virginity. I doubt she even has the ability to understand how much she doesn't know about the complex and flawed (broken?) man he's become. Or honestly, that he's always been, because no man can ever live up to that kind of childish delusion. The MC is Vi's first crush, and so he's perfect in her eyes. IMO, Els is absolutely right to warn Vi about not knowing him. Simply put, Vi has a lot of growing up to do, or else if the MC chooses her, they are going to have a very rough time of it when he very quickly needs her support, and she can't handle the revelation that there are gaping holes in that perfect armour she imagines him wearing.

Els really is the group's big sister in many ways.

 

[schinoize]

That all sounds quite one-sided. MC already has a reputation, so far it hasn't hurt the centre.

A big sister doesn't behave like she does, during the beach conversation with Vi. "So you do have a price", "Info for Info". And of course, after Vi opens up, Els deflects and in the end doesn't give Vi any info at all.
She warns to Vi of having an idolized image of her childhood protector, but at the same time has a very fixed image of MC herself ("like looking in a mirror", "seeing right through you"). That comes after knowing him personally for about a year, without having spent much 1on1 time.

 

[Quetzzz]

She warns to Vi of having an idolized image of her childhood protector, but at the same time has a very fixed image of MC herself ("like looking in a mirror", "seeing right through you"). That comes after knowing him personally for about a year, without having spent much 1on1 time.

I think Els' path will come down to the choice, if the player believes Els' profiling of the MC, or not. If Els is right about everything, then she and Valentine will be very happy together, revelling in violence and blood sports (Like she taunts Valentine about being afraid of a "little domestic"). If the player rejects the idea that Valentine has a hard-on for violence, then Els is wrong. It's much like the Face vs. Heel choices. In some ways, Els wants Valentine to have the personality of the Face, but the lust for violence of the Heel.

 

[RoryTate]

That all sounds quite one-sided. MC already has a reputation, so far it hasn't hurt the centre.

The MC's name isn't a draw for the Centre though. He's just a volunteer there, and he contributes funding. That's all. So the papers would only associate him with his famous MMA career when writing about his sordid affairs. That is, unless the scandal involved someone from the Centre. Then the leadership would be accused of enabling his (perceived) predatory behaviour, and things could go pear-shaped real fast.

A big sister doesn't behave like she does, during the beach conversation with Vi. "So you do have a price", "Info for Info". And of course, after Vi opens up, Els deflects and in the end doesn't give Vi any info at all.

I thought Els opened up quite a bit in that conversation (especially if Els and the MC didn't have the pool heart-to-heart talk, and Els shares the following with Vi: "I've sat around and told myself that there was nothing I could do to help somebody before. It didn't make me feel better when the worst happened."), but to each his own I guess. The real problem here though is you've left out all the good advice Els gives Vi to be direct with the MC about her feelings, and to not have any regrets about not declaring that she's interested to him. Els pushes Vi to fight for what she wants, and Vi responds by doing exactly that in their picnic discussion. And later that day Vi decides she's ready to go all the way with the MC. This very adult – and important! – decision can be tied back to Els's push to be more active in pursuing him. How does this level of direct competition from Vi help Els's chances at winning the MC's affection?

e "You're going to have to get over that, you know?"
e "If you don't express how you feel to him, I doubt he'll ever figure it out on his own."
e "And there are others who might not be as reticent about doing what you seem to be afraid of."
v "I'm not afraid."
v "Not of that, and especially not of you."
e "Much better."

I really thought this was a nice scene, and that the two redheads became a lot closer because of it.

Look, Els can be annoying, pushy, arrogant, double-tongued...I get why some readers don't like her. Even fans like myself suspect her obsession with the MC will turn out to have some very unhealthy motivations behind it. I just don't like how people today are either lionized or demonized, with no in between offered or considered. If there's nothing she can do that isn't interpreted negatively, then the real problem unfortunately lies elsewhere. She has to be able to theoretically say: "You win, gingersnap. You're the better fit for [mc]. Congratulations." and genuinely act on that, without a spat of: "She's planning something nasty, watch out!" reactions.

 

[Quetzzz]

I really thought this was a nice scene, and that the two redheads became a lot closer because of it.

This is something you actually changed my mind on a while back, because Vi does take her advice to heart. (Not sure how this plays out with viFamily > viLove though)

 

[Bombmaster]

The MC's name isn't a draw for the Centre though. He's just a volunteer there, and he contributes funding. That's all. So the papers would only associate him with his famous MMA career when writing about his sordid affairs. That is, unless the scandal involved someone from the Centre. Then the leadership would be accused of enabling his (perceived) predatory behaviour, and things could go pear-shaped real fast.



I thought Els opened up quite a bit in that conversation (especially if Els and the MC didn't have the pool heart-to-heart talk, and Els shares the following with Vi: "I've sat around and told myself that there was nothing I could do to help somebody before. It didn't make me feel better when the worst happened."), but to each his own I guess. The real problem here though is you've left out all the good advice Els gives Vi to be direct with the MC about her feelings, and to not have any regrets about not declaring that she's interested to him. Els pushes Vi to fight for what she wants, and Vi responds by doing exactly that in their picnic discussion. And later that day Vi decides she's ready to go all the way with the MC. This very adult – and important! – decision can be tied back to Els's push to be more active in pursuing him. How does this level of direct competition from Vi help Els's chances at winning the MC's affection?

e "You're going to have to get over that, you know?"
e "If you don't express how you feel to him, I doubt he'll ever figure it out on his own."
e "And there are others who might not be as reticent about doing what you seem to be afraid of."
v "I'm not afraid."
v "Not of that, and especially not of you."
e "Much better."

I really thought this was a nice scene, and that the two redheads became a lot closer because of it.

Look, Els can be annoying, pushy, arrogant, double-tongued...I get why some readers don't like her. Even fans like myself suspect her obsession with the MC will turn out to have some very unhealthy motivations behind it. I just don't like how people today are either lionized or demonized, with no in between offered or considered. If there's nothing she can do that isn't interpreted negatively, then the real problem unfortunately lies elsewhere. She has to be able to theoretically say: "You win, gingersnap. You're the better fit for [mc]. Congratulations." and genuinely act on that, without a spat of: "She's planning something nasty, watch out!" reactions.

As always very insightful read on Els path hoping to have a infamy Els playthrough as the Mc ponders he needs to be better to deserve Vi puppy love.

Nevertheless Els is a very interesting LI and we need to accept that she is smart and Mc is a step behind her. Their dynamic is unique as LI normally goes.

She could easily destroy Valentine if she wanted and this danger irks some readers. Rightfully so.

 

[RoryTate]

This is something you actually changed my mind on a while back, because Vi does take her advice to heart. (Not sure how this plays out with viFamily > viLove though)

I'll put it in a spoiler tag in case you or anyone else is wanting to play through with vifamily > vilove, but at a high level what happens is that Vi gives Els a bit of a taste of her own medicine.

Spoiler: How Vi/Els/MC plays out when Vi sees the MC as "family"

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[schinoize]

I thought Els opened up quite a bit in that conversation (especially if Els and the MC didn't have the pool heart-to-heart talk, and Els shares the following with Vi: "I've sat around and told myself that there was nothing I could do to help somebody before. It didn't make me feel better when the worst happened."), but to each his own I guess. The real problem here though is you've left out all the good advice Els gives Vi to be direct with the MC about her feelings, and to not have any regrets about not declaring that she's interested to him. Els pushes Vi to fight for what she wants, and Vi responds by doing exactly that in their picnic discussion. And later that day Vi decides she's ready to go all the way with the MC. This very adult – and important! – decision can be tied back to Els's push to be more active in pursuing him. How does this level of direct competition from Vi help Els's chances at winning the MC's affection?

e "You're going to have to get over that, you know?"
e "If you don't express how you feel to him, I doubt he'll ever figure it out on his own."
e "And there are others who might not be as reticent about doing what you seem to be afraid of."
v "I'm not afraid."
v "Not of that, and especially not of you."
e "Much better."

I really thought this was a nice scene, and that the two redheads became a lot closer because of it.

Look, Els can be annoying, pushy, arrogant, double-tongued...I get why some readers don't like her. Even fans like myself suspect her obsession with the MC will turn out to have some very unhealthy motivations behind it. I just don't like how people today are either lionized or demonized, with no in between offered or considered. If there's nothing she can do that isn't interpreted negatively, then the real problem unfortunately lies elsewhere. She has to be able to theoretically say: "You win, gingersnap. You're the better fit for [mc]. Congratulations." and genuinely act on that, without a spat of: "She's planning something nasty, watch out!" reactions.

I'm not talking about a playthrough where both are fighting for MC's affection. I guess I'm on friendship path with both (haven't kissed any of them yet). I never got the scene you describe. Vi talks about how MC was back in the day, then Els opens up, which I admit is something (though no info directly related to MC). I haven't looked at the code yet, will do after I finish my 2nd playthrough. That's why I found it quite strange Els started the convo like that, because there's arguably no need to.

I'm not demonizing her. Like I said, I find her character and the role she plays in the story very interesting. Do I like her personality? Eh, so-so, but that doesn't really matter. I was just slightly objecting to calling her a 'big sister' (she thinks of herself as one, too). While there's nothing wrong per se with the advice she gives, the 'how' can be questioned. There are still some question marks about her motivation.

I think Els' path will come down to the choice, if the player believes Els' profiling of the MC, or not. If Els is right about everything, then she and Valentine will be very happy together, revelling in violence and blood sports (Like she taunts Valentine about being afraid of a "little domestic"). If the player rejects the idea that Valentine has a hard-on for violence, then Els is wrong. It's much like the Face vs. Heel choices. In some ways, Els wants Valentine to have the personality of the Face, but the lust for violence of the Heel.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far, yet. I'm not sure about revelling in violence. Iirc Els once said something along the lines of 'if you [MC] can't be helped, then all the others are lost". I think it might depend a lot on how much MC will open up about his struggles, which in turn will help Els.

 

[RoryTate]

Vi talks about how MC was back in the day, then Els opens up, which I admit is something (though no info directly related to MC)

Els doesn't give any info directly related to the MC because Vi only asks why Els cares so much about the MC in this particular "info for info" exchange. So Els's response is limited to explaining her own motivations, simply because Vi chooses to use her question in a somewhat unexpected way. And that leads to the two split paths. If Els and the MC have had the pool heart-to-heart, Els explains that she cares for the MC because she is in love with him ("He interests me because he would be a partner in every sense of the word."). If they haven't had that talk, then Els reveals a bit about a previously unknown tragedy/loss of someone she cared about (who might be her brother, or Anastasia, or someone else).

What fascinates me here is that Vi really sticks to her guns about believing that she is the one who knows the MC best. She doesn't use this golden opportunity to get information to ask about the MC, and instead she simply wants to gauge what she's up against with Els. That's very consistent characterization there. Of course, one might also interpret this as Vi not wanting to know more about the MC, lest it ruin her pristine image of him and make her doubt herself.

 

[Quetzzz]

What fascinates me here is that Vi really sticks to her guns about believing that she is the one who knows the MC best. She doesn't use this golden opportunity to get information to ask about the MC, and instead she simply wants to gauge what she's up against with Els.

That's an interesting way to interpret it, I hadn't considered that. I guess this is a result of your habit to look at "what didn't she do?".
At this point, Vi knows that her brother has done something that hurt Valentine, and that Valentine is capable of extreme acts of violence (when it's warranted). If you promised to tell her about it, she'll ask about what happened later. For me, her concern comes from a place of love and care. I also love this reversal of the roles, where Vi is taking initiative to be there for Valentine, while she's always been the one in need.

 

[Rule97]

Man, I hate how good the writing in this game is, instead of just sleeping with every female that walks and breathes, I'm really resisting the impulse to like, sleep or do anything sexual with Amrit because I dunno, it doesn't vibe well, with how their backstory has been till this point.

(to be clear, I'm not critizing anyone who made the choice and thinks MC x Amrit works, I'm just saying, it doesn't work for me, and that works in enhancing the game and I'm fighting my own impulses.)

 

[impatientpatient]

She isn't reliving some trauma when we see her covered in blood, she is fantasizing, drawn back to the memory of violence.

Dang, never thought of it that way. Thanks for these reads, yall. Makes me realize I overlooked a lotta shit out of laziness. Link me to some more popular theories, like ones that are more or less probably true. Seems like I have been out of the loop lol.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Now this information could make Kana less trustworthy of any commitments to her that the MC makes, so while the comment likely makes Kana more interested in having sex with him, I think it does reasonably set up some obstacles to Kana and the MC forming a long-term bond.

I'd like to chime in here, even if we think that your way when you combine her saying you can fuck around but you'll come to me (not the exact words but same meaning) can't we say she was trying to demote Kana to side piece rather than LI?

I interpret this as Els giving Vi some very helpful and useful advice on how to understand and properly pursue the MC.

I interpret this whole scene as a declaration of war to the most likely candidate that MC can feel things. Iirc, kitchen kiss scene was after this scene so I saw that as first blood draw from Elspeth. I feel like Elspeth sees these whole thing as a battle ground.

Els pushes Vi to fight for what she wants, and Vi responds by doing exactly that in their picnic discussion. And later that day Vi decides she's ready to go all the way with the MC.

It's interesting to see how people look at something, see completely different things. Vi was heading there steadily, she came onto MC by herself on Christmas, also at the lake too. All I see from that conversation is Elspeth taunting Vi. I believe only Elspeth action further pushed Vi, if you choose that, was the kiss. I am not saying she did because of it but she became more sure about it.


I see Elspeth snaky, up to no good person with shady background. So I see every action of her in that sense and I can find hints about that almost every scene of her. There is only one scene bugs me which is after first fight of MC, there was a brief scene that shows Elspeth watched the fight and she looked genuinely disturbed. If what I see in Elspeth accurate, she should have been excited, pleased and even relieved not disturbed. She was alone she should not have act according to her passivist facade, so that scene should have shown Elspeth unfiltered. So only explanation I can come up with is that scene was fairly early in game and dev used that as red herring, make us believe she is a pacifist so when revealed she is not impact would be bigger. Sorta weak explanation I think.

 

[RoryTate]

There is only one scene bugs me which is after first fight of MC, there was a brief scene that shows Elspeth watched the fight and she looked genuinely disturbed. If what I see in Elspeth accurate, she should have been excited, pleased and even relieved not disturbed.

It can be both of these things: Els is fascinated and excited by violence, but after her experiences in the military those strong emotions have now become associated with equally intense feelings of regret and shame. So she no longer has a safe way of expressing them, and they greatly disturb her. Thus she has created this façade of "pacifism" to help her avoid any situation where those baser instincts arise. Except with the MC it seems, who may allow her to understand those violent tendencies in a controlled environment, or whom she has made into a kind of "redemptive avatar" to be saved (and thereby atone for her own sins), or something else entirely.

I admit these are just my own speculations about Els's motivations, and there's a lot we don't know about her at this point in the story. I mean, if only we had a scene of a genuinely conflicted Els admitting that she both loves and hates her brother (as she seems to both love and hate violence), and recognizing this same issue in a suffering Vi to help her, thereby allowing Vi and the MC to talk about this kind of dark emotional complexity. If only we could point to some reasonable establishment of this overarching theme that "love and hate are often two sides of the same coin" previously in the story.

I see Elspeth snaky, up to no good person with shady background. So I see every action of her in that sense and I can find hints about that almost every scene of her.

As I said before, if there is nothing a person can theoretically do that isn't interpreted negatively, then the actual problem lies elsewhere.

Vi was heading there steadily, she came onto MC by herself on Christmas, also at the lake too.

Yes, there are a lot of indicators that Vi would have gotten there without Els's help. So my suggestion that Els was the main reason Vi confessed is one I have definitely softened on as I consider it further. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Els did challenge Vi to be more confident, and complimented her when she demonstrated that courage ("Much better."). Even if that didn't do much for Vi's belief in herself, it also didn't completely destroy her self-confidence in a "My, what beautiful scars you have" kind of way, which Els could have just as easily done, and is what a "snaky, up to no good person with shady background" character would have done to Vi when getting her alone.

I interpret this whole scene as a declaration of war to the most likely candidate that MC can feel things. Iirc, kitchen kiss scene was after this scene so I saw that as first blood draw from Elspeth.

The kitchen kiss only happens if the MC sleeps with Els, so it makes sense they would be affectionate with each other the next morning. If they aren't together, Els doesn't declare war in this or any other way. And that is significant, because even just being "friendly" with him by patting him on the back in front of the group would have social repercussions. Indeed, Vi saying that she and the MC were going on a "picnic" to bond that morning was her own similar declaration to all the other women. My point is that these things are not overly remarkable. In fact, here's a strange recollection: I once had a co-worker who got into a fun conversation at a social gathering with an old female friend he hadn't seen in a while, where the two of them talked passionately at length about their shared musical interests, and he told us that his fiancé – who had been there listening – later that night threw her engagement ring at him when they were back home because this devastated her (now this is a bit extreme, and his now ex-fiancé obviously had other mental issues and perhaps previous relationship concerns, but I'm relaying this unfortunate example to make a point about how even seemingly unremarkable interactions between people can be perceived when it comes to the cutthroat world of human dating).

I admit that Els did lay it on quite thick in the "kitchen kiss" scene (complimenting the MC's performance in bed, serving him coffee before partaking herself), but it was interesting to me how she chose to make these "social statements" in a very direct way, without any hidden agenda. And she didn't bat an eye at Vi's desire to "bond" with the MC on their picnic trip, nor do I expect her to raise it as a concern in the future or forbid the MC from seeing Vi in any way. IMO Els is fighting fairly for the MC's love and affection, as is her right, and not acting in an immoral manner (of course her motives behind the "information gathering" are the big question here, but those are not certain, so that reveal will be an important deciding factor in how she is judged).

At this point, Vi knows that her brother has done something that hurt Valentine, and that Valentine is capable of extreme acts of violence (when it's warranted). If you promised to tell her about it, she'll ask about what happened later. For me, her concern comes from a place of love and care. I also love this reversal of the roles, where Vi is taking initiative to be there for Valentine, while she's always been the one in need.

There are indeed a lot of positives that happen in that picnic discussion. Vi knows that the MC trusts her with this big secret he has been keeping. And the MC is relieved that he is not hiding important things from Vi, and that he can rely on her in some ways (though there's an important caveat here, which I will explain later). So the two really do grow closer in a real sense after this heart-to-heart, and there is now a strength in their relationship that goes both ways, instead of the MC just being Vi's "knight in shining armour".

My concern is that role-playing as the MC in that scene left me feeling a bit worse off than when I entered it. I became worried about Vi, because I didn't want to make her hate her brother more. But most importantly, I didn't want her to feel responsible for his actions, since he's her close family member (indeed, the MC even responds with "You didn't do it" after Vi's first words after hearing the story are "I'm sorry", which honestly broke my heart to hear from her...this is why I have a caveat about her taking on a reliable and supportive role towards the MC, since she reacted in the exact distraught and conflicted way I was worried she would). I kind of imagine the MC is feeling a bit more stressed after sharing this information with Vi, and this discussion might not be quite as therapeutic as you suggest. I do hope she is mature enough to deal with the likely feelings of guilt for the extreme harm her brother caused, but it's got to be a bitter reality for anyone to have to deal with when someone they are close to acts in such a horrible way. Especially when they hurt another person that you care about. In that sense, I really do understand why it took so long for the MC to talk about it with her.

 

[TimHawk]

I see Elspeth snaky, up to no good person with shady background. So I see every action of her in that sense and I can find hints about that almost every scene of her. There is only one scene bugs me which is after first fight of MC, there was a brief scene that shows Elspeth watched the fight and she looked genuinely disturbed. If what I see in Elspeth accurate, she should have been excited, pleased and even relieved not disturbed. She was alone she should not have act according to her passivist facade, so that scene should have shown Elspeth unfiltered. So only explanation I can come up with is that scene was fairly early in game and dev used that as red herring, make us believe she is a pacifist so when revealed she is not impact would be bigger. Sorta weak explanation I think.

Without even trying to make sense of it, the scene reminded me of a drug addict who got clean, and then walked past the same spot where he usually met his dealer and then everything comes back to him and he instantly regrets going there again.

To me she didn't look disturbed, she looked defeated, like she was saying "Damn, I still can't shake what seeing violence does to me", hence she calls herself "stupid".

The developer set up another good chance for us to check if Els has any real interesst in the MC or if she just sees him as her lifeboat, when she suggested the psychiatrist to the MC.

If she will try to use him to get information about the MC, as to what he has done or has happened to him during his deployment, then it'll be another huge pointer as to her true intentions. Im really curious how that will play out.

Also have you checked the scenes where Els is covered in blood ? Every single time the developer found it important enough to have blood run into or cover her mouth, I wonder if that's symbolic, like she developed a "taste for blood" or just a coincidence. Especially if you consider it together with the "bite during the kiss" scene, it's really intruiging.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

It can be both of these things: Els is fascinated and excited by violence, but after her experiences in the military those strong emotions have now become associated with equally intense feelings of regret and shame. So she no longer has a safe way of expressing them, and they greatly disturb her. Thus she has created this façade of "pacifism" to help her avoid any situation where those baser instincts arise. Except with the MC it seems, who may allow her to understand those violent tendencies in a controlled environment, or whom she has made into a kind of "redemptive avatar" to be saved (and thereby atone for her own sins), or something else entirely.

I really like this explanation, it probably is true.

Without even trying to make sense of it, the scene reminded me of a drug addict who got clean, and then walked past the same spot where he usually met his dealer and then everything comes back to him and he instantly regrets going there again.

To me she didn't look disturbed, she looked defeated, like she was saying "Damn, I still can't shake what seeing violence does to me", hence she calls herself "stupid".

I still think she looked disturbed, maybe a little bit defeated but disturbed was the main focus. So I feel like Rory's explanation fits better.

Els admitting that she both loves and hates her brother

Tbh, I didn't believe single word of that. If it turns out she is unable to have those emotions won't be surprising for me.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that Els did challenge Vi to be more confident, and complimented her when she demonstrated that courage ("Much better.").

I think if you combine much better with get over quote, it's more like a taunt rather than encouragement. It's almost like waiting the beaten, lying on the ground opponent to get up, so you can beat him down again.

The kitchen kiss only happens if the MC sleeps with Els, so it makes sense they would be affectionate with each other the next morning.

Well, Elspeth is good at choosing the fights and if they did not sleep together, even she used every trick to reach there, there was no need to go total war against everyone. When they slept together, in a way MC gave her ammo to fight and she have better hand at that point, so she marked her territory and showed she was ready to defend it. That alone was not a negative thing IMO, being fighter is not a bad trait but her overall attitude towards MC and others is nothing short of toxic.

I don't think she threatened Katie in any way but overall attitude could have indicated fight to Katie, so she might have said what she said to avoid a fight with Elspeth.

All in all, I do agree there are a lot of things we do not know about Elspeth and I think she have multilayered personality, so assesing her as a black&white would be mistake. Still though, I believe she has darker tone of grey.

 

[Quetzzz]

And she didn't bat an eye at Vi's desire to "bond" with the MC on their picnic trip, nor do I expect her to raise it as a concern in the future or forbid the MC from seeing Vi in any way.

I still think there's an aspect of hubris to Els' whole personality. It might even be earned, she is a very formidable woman.

My concern is that role-playing as the MC in that scene left me feeling a bit worse off than when I entered it. I became worried about Vi, because I didn't want to make her hate her brother more.

The first time I went through this scene, I fucked up and decided not to tell her. After a break, to think things over, I rolled back and told her. I didn't like that Vi shared personal info with Els on the beach, but Valentine doesn't know this. I'm a very private person, and I projected myself too much on Valentine. From an RP perspective I didn't want to tell her, for the reasons you said, but eventually decided to trust her to be mature enough to handle it.

"I'm sorry"

I think this part got lost in translation for me. I never understood this about the English language. To me, "I'm sorry" is such a cop-out statement that it's almost expected, specially when someone is overwhelmed and doesn't know what to say. I also dislike the statement because it shifts focus. I tell someone about something horrible, they reply with "I'm sorry", do I now have to reassure them after opening up?

Thinking about it, didn't Davis show up to blame the MC for turning his sister against him? I've been playing a bunch of other games, and the details are getting foggy. (I should probably just grep all the dialog from the files and keep it as a reference.)

I do hope she is mature enough to deal with the likely feelings of guilt for the extreme harm her brother caused, but it's got to be a bitter reality for anyone to have to deal with when someone they are close to acts in such a horrible way.

More so, because Vi has been entirely sheltered from the horrible realities of war and the kind of violence that comes with it. I don't think she could've even imagined something like that happening. I think my Valentine felt less conflicted after the talk than yours, hoping that Vi could find some strength. Whatever happened to Vi, it's really nothing compared to what Valentine faced during his service. The biggest difference between the two, is that Valentine never considered himself a victim.