For me personally, she is the most intriguing LI even though there's not a lot of her right now.
Both Nika and Vanessa have dominant personalities. It will be interesting to see the dynamics of their relationship.
You all describe her as if she's straight up the main villain of the story despite the fact she didn't nothing wrong so far. And unless I've forgotten, it was Bella who wanted to use her. I like Bella as well, but she's too bratty and overconfident for her own good. So if she ignores Nika's warning eventually, I would actually wish Vanessa to teach her a good lesson.
Haha bro, let's wait for another flashback, a heartbreaking story of how teenage Vanessa protected baby Zara from their bitch mom and took care of her. What people say then
Most of the Ocean's characters are like that, one moment you empathize with them and the next you hate them. Let's say Leia, it is hard not to sympathize with her, listening to the story of how she survived Willie’s escape and almost starved herself to death from grief and longing. And in the next episode you see that she is now pimping out young girls in her club.
Still, I rather don't like Vanessa. I don’t know, there’s something serpently about her... The snake bracelet suits her very well.
Haha bro, let's wait for another flashback, a heartbreaking story of how teenage Vanessa protected baby Zara from their bitch mom and took care of her. What people say then
Please no! I'm not a fan of these typical heartbreaking stories. In fact, I don't think it would be good for her. At least not in the way you described it. Need to be very careful with characters like Vanessa. Because one wrong move and her image will be ruined completely.
Most of the Ocean's characters are like that, one moment you empathize with them and the next you hate them. Let's say Leia, it is hard not to sympathize with her, listening to the story of how she survived Willie’s escape and almost starved herself to death from grief and longing. And in the next episode you see that she is now pimping out young girls in her club.
Well, admittedly, the Vanessa type isn't for every man. But I can definitely imagine that Mika is a match for her. And if he plans to stand up to her, it will be a very interesting story on a very high level.
A dream scenario playing out in my head this very minute is Anna from Bookclub is Vanessa's mother and Nika ends up railing her while buttplug-wearing Vanessa is forced to watch.
IMO mostly this, based on this aspect of his storytelling being even worse in Where it All Began.
Not saying it won't be significant, but the reason for not informing the player is fabricated mystery and suspense.
I always thought it was a combination of both: He remembers certain things, but they're too hurtful to even think about them (these are the ones Noji and Nami could be aware of), but certain traumatic events can make you forget certain things.
Or it could be that Nika knows what happened, but Ocean isn't going to spill the beans and show us immediately what happened.
I think it's both. I think Ocean's specifically using Nika's trauma/disassociation as a way to create ambiguity as well as just loving keeping us in suspense. The suspense of what happens next is what keeps us eager for the next release after all, Ocean uses suspense much better than most AVN writers. He's not stingy with details, but loves misdirection and hiding things in plain sight.
One thing I find interesting about the cabin incident - it clearly freaks him out, but when he talks about seeing Summer after then he doesn't freak out as much. If it was a violent incident, and if the last time was a coffin (not saying she's dead though, just as a thought experiment), he'd have closure, unless he blocked it out. But he remembers seeing her again, yet has flashbacks with the hospital thinking he hadn't been there before.
On this, I don't think we can guess whether it was a violent trauma or emotional trauma, as we don't know anything about it. I think someone (Edit: DoomyK) posted about Marla being in on the racing - what if the weird lights in the cabin dream foreshadow car lights? The lights seemed cheesy, but if they represent traffic that actually might make some sense. I wonder if his reaction to seeing Vic in her accident is because it mirrors something that happened to Summer, and he feels drawn to her because of the unconscious similarity of the event. Maybe we'll find out Marla hit Summer while driving near the cabin and that's why Nika is part of her problem?
About Noji and Nami talking about it:
n "We all were shocked when the whole Summer thing went down but MAN!"
n "It's been years! GET OVER IT!"
Kinda seems to me that what they know suggests they're tip toeing around his feelings more than being so concerned about the events themselves. That explosion from Nami is pretty insensitive, and expecting way too much, while she really tip toes around the 'violent' incident just earlier.
So definitely selective, and I'd say based on context. Nika's not aware he's self censoring.
I think there is a level by which the people around Nika are being cautious with their words to avoid triggering him, but I'll do a list with spoilers to save screen space:
Nika remembers what happened at the cabin, not after. Jane (Officer Laverne's first name? So Nika's on first name basis with Jane?) driving them home is the end of it. This implies the issue wasn't at the cabin, whatever happened to SUmmer and Nika was after Jane picked them up. So we have a situation where in WiaB, the original story had police corruption, current WiaB we have the police being obstructed from higher up and in SG we have an evil police officer (Ceril). What if Nika was beaten up by Summer's dad, and he had police connections to cover it up? It's implied Jane wasn't on duty in the old versions.
I'm just thinking aloud here, because I never noticed that whatever happened to Summer didn't happen at the cabin, it happened after. The cabin was the last time Nika and Summer were romantic.
So this continues along that same thread - Nika is emotional about the cabin in hindsight because he knows now that what happens next is around the corner - not at the cabin, but afterwards (which is why the dream ends, because his mind is blocking it out). In the earlier version of the game, isn't it police lights at the cabin that preempt Jane's appearance? And now we have electric neon 'flowers' signalling the end of the dream and Summer disappears.
Nia doesn't know what happened either. If it was a death, I'm sure there would have been a funeral and the school would've heard. But Nia has no reason to hide anything from Nika, she has no idea what's gone on with him really - this is their first serious interaction, so we can take her words as being uncensored.
So just having spent a bit of time looking through the script, whatever happened maybe wasn't at the cabin specifically. Maybe Summer's dad was the violent one, and beat Nika up to teach him to stay away, and has police connections to cover it up. The disappearance might've been because he went too far. It's not just Summer that disappeared, but her parents too I think, otherwise Noji probably would've tried to find out from the parents. After all, Elsa's still around, presumably she'd know how to contact her aunt, but there's photos of her being sad thinking about the past.
Anyway, it all makes me think, whatever happened it's most likely not death, and it most likely happened the last time Nika saw Summer, not at the cabin.
What do you think about possible throuples? Regardless of whether they are planned or not.
Despite the number of LIs, I don't see many throuples that would look great.
For example, I know Bella and Nami were planned (no idea how things are now), but I can't imagine them together.
They just don't fit. I think Nami should be without throuple just like Sasha and Sonya.
However, if Robin were a LI, I can see her and Sasha. Easily.
Zara and Bella also look great. But Bella and Kate look even better.
Vanessa is the only LI who probably needs a throuple. And the only option I can see is her and Victoria.
I think there is a level by which the people around Nika are being cautious with their words to avoid triggering him, but I'll do a list with spoilers to save screen space:
Nika remembers what happened at the cabin, not after. Jane (Officer Laverne's first name? So Nika's on first name basis with Jane?) driving them home is the end of it. This implies the issue wasn't at the cabin, whatever happened to SUmmer and Nika was after Jane picked them up. So we have a situation where in WiaB, the original story had police corruption, current WiaB we have the police being obstructed from higher up and in SG we have an evil police officer (Ceril). What if Nika was beaten up by Summer's dad, and he had police connections to cover it up? It's implied Jane wasn't on duty in the old versions.
I'm just thinking aloud here, because I never noticed that whatever happened to Summer didn't happen at the cabin, it happened after. The cabin was the last time Nika and Summer were romantic.
So this continues along that same thread - Nika is emotional about the cabin in hindsight because he knows now that what happens next is around the corner - not at the cabin, but afterwards (which is why the dream ends, because his mind is blocking it out). In the earlier version of the game, isn't it police lights at the cabin that preempt Jane's appearance? And now we have electric neon 'flowers' signalling the end of the dream and Summer disappears.
Nia doesn't know what happened either. If it was a death, I'm sure there would have been a funeral and the school would've heard. But Nia has no reason to hide anything from Nika, she has no idea what's gone on with him really - this is their first serious interaction, so we can take her words as being uncensored.
So just having spent a bit of time looking through the script, whatever happened maybe wasn't at the cabin specifically. Maybe Summer's dad was the violent one, and beat Nika up to teach him to stay away, and has police connections to cover it up. The disappearance might've been because he went too far. It's not just Summer that disappeared, but her parents too I think, otherwise Noji probably would've tried to find out from the parents. After all, Elsa's still around, presumably she'd know how to contact her aunt, but there's photos of her being sad thinking about the past.
Anyway, it all makes me think, whatever happened it's most likely not death, and it most likely happened the last time Nika saw Summer, not at the cabin.
Yeah, whatever happened occurred after they got home from the cabin, and Summer was leaving on a two-week vacation with her family the following day (hopefully, they were on something like MH370 or Oceanic Flight 815). We don't know whether what happened next was fallout from Summer being brought home after dark by the police (the straw that broke the camel's back) or something else.
Huh, I just have realized that Nika and Willy have something in common. A burning hatred for white knights. The way William pushed that little cop almost one on one, like Nika pushed that boy in library. For both of them, white paladins are like a red rag to a bull.
What do you think about possible throuples? Regardless of whether they are planned or not.
Despite the number of LIs, I don't see many throuples that would look great.
For example, I know Bella and Nami were planned (no idea how things are now), but I can't imagine them together.
They just don't fit. I think Nami should be without throuple just like Sasha and Sonya.
However, if Robin were a LI, I can see her and Sasha. Easily.
Zara and Bella also look great. But Bella and Kate look even better.
Vanessa is the only LI who probably needs a throuple. And the only option I can see is her and Victoria.
We know that Vic is compatible with most of the LI's. Amber/Bella isn't possible. But Ocean said the list will not be updated, so it could be that some things will change.
Best long term choice would be Robin. Even if Charlie became your mother in law. Vic is like an endless strawberry milkshake: you WILL get sick. So far Robin is the only character that has any decent level of dialogue that has no major apparent trauma or baggage (well I guess Charlie IS baggage...)
Here's the thing: you don't just marry the girl, you marry her entire family.
And not only is Charlie a repulsive personality, but she and MC started right off bat on a hostile footing and are at war. There is really no sad story or redeemable qualities to her like there is to Bella, she's just a power-obssessed megalomaniac. She's also waaaaaaaay too old to change. Plus she's already in menopause and just old and only to get older, while your female friends just get better looking and have more energy.
That is a recipe for disaster, and definitely not for a peaceful marriage. Eventually Robin would be forced to choose between her husband and her mother or she would be torn apart between them.
Alarm bells should be ringing in their heads, especially since Vanessa always seems to know more about what's going on with them than the other way round.
MC actually abandoned the party for a few minutes just to call Bella and warn her off, to tell her Vanessa is a danger and that they underestimated her. My memory is vague, but I think he actually talked to her twice about Vanessa or at least there were two scenes where he was thinking how wrong they were and that he needs to protect Bella.
The important thing is she will use what she knows to dominate Nika, and knowing Ocean, chances are the first situation will leave Nika needing to get out from underneath (like the underdog he is).
I get it that some people are into being dominated, but vast majority aren't, that's why dominatrixes don't open their business in daytime hours on the main street. Nika definitely isn't. He immediately fights anyone that tries to dominate or control him, either physically (bullies, Bella...) or verbally (Charlie, Bella, etc.). he wouldn't let himself be dominated by anyone and it's something I'm glad for cause that would immediately ruin the character and the game for me to forced to play someone like that.
Currently we've seen very little that is honest about her. All the other girls have shown vulnerability at some point, which is endearing on a superficial level, but allows us to see into their personality. Currently Vanessa is a closed door with spikes. I'd say hello from a distance in real life and go find 20 Nia's or Vic's or Layla's to talk to, simply because I would be on my guard around someone who projects and objectifies as much as Vanessa does.
Well, admittedly, the Vanessa type isn't for every man. But I can definitely imagine that Mika is a match for her. And if he plans to stand up to her, it will be a very interesting story on a very high level.
He'd have to be castrated for her to be a type for him. She thinks of men the same as of worms, they are beneath her, she humiliates and mindbreaks them, plays games, etc. She's like the men who think women only belong in kitchen pregnant and then multiply that attitude by 100 and you get Vanessa. The ultimate sexist.
Because they wouldn't have had the opportunity to get to know her better, realize how wrong they were and find out what a great person she actually is beneath all those walls and defences.
Bella requires a lot of investment, but the pay-off is huge. It's possibly the most gratifying and emotionally rewarding plot in the game.
Vic requires very little investment, with huge pay-off, but the MC would basically be freeloading, she would be doing all the work.
Vanessa... immense investment and sacrifices and 0 payoff. If you weren't a corpse after she was done with you and moved on to a more amusing project you would definitely be needing years of psychotherapy.
They are great, but when I look at Maja I only think of how exhausted she looks and how drained. 20-something looking over 30. The best for her would be if someone took over most of the care for Victoria from her and given her more freedom and to take care of herself and to still enjoy some of her youth, it's way too fleeting. Only then would she be ready for a relationship once she's released some of the worry. That's why I think that MC starting a longterm relationship with Victoria would be better for Maja than MC romancing her, besides the fact that MC is a bit too prickly and too fucked up to be that good for her. She needs someone stable, strong, dependable and mentally healthy that would help her into calm waters.
He'd have to be castrated for her to be a type for him. She thinks of men the same as of worms, they are beneath her, she humiliates and mindbreaks them, plays games, etc. She's like the men who think women only belong in kitchen pregnant and then multiply that attitude by 100 and you get Vanessa. The ultimate sexist.
In Nika's head, definitely. Not sure about Bella though. I get the impression that she may still decide to act on her own and that will cause problems.
By the way, how much different is the situation with Vanessa if Nika didn't go to the Holgersons house? Is he warning Bella anyway?
Because they wouldn't have had the opportunity to get to know her better, realize how wrong they were and find out what a great person she actually is beneath all those walls and defences.
Bella requires a lot of investment, but the pay-off is huge. It's possibly the most gratifying and emotionally rewarding plot in the game.
I'm waiting for the final update to check her path.
In the first playthrough I actually planned to start her path, but when it was suggested it seemed so rushed to me that I said no.
He'd have to be castrated for her to be a type for him. She thinks of men the same as of worms, they are beneath her, she humiliates and mindbreaks them, plays games, etc. She's like the men who think women only belong in kitchen pregnant and then multiply that attitude by 100 and you get Vanessa.
Vanessa... immense investment and sacrifices and 0 payoff. If you weren't a corpse after she was done with you and moved on to a more amusing project you would definitely be needing years of psychotherapy.
I understand the concerns about Vanessa. I partially share them too. But it's literally so soon to make such bold statements.
She defended Mario in front of Nika and Zara when it was revealed that he is wearing a buttplug. She stood up to her mother who tried to manipulate her and Zara against their father. At least before rework one of her path was called "equals". How can she think of men as worms, humiliates and mindbreaks them but in the same time sees Nika as her equal?
Hey, maybe i'm wrong and you are right. There's no equals route anymore and she's the villian for real. But so far, I see a very spoiled woman who establishes superiority over men through seduction and domination and takes it for granted. Nothing good about it, yes. But you just take her defiant behavior, a few bold words from her and then multiply that by 100. There is no truth in this. Only wishful thinking.
In Nika's head, definitely. Not sure about Bella though. I get the impression that she may still decide to act on her own and that will cause problems.
For now she seems content to trust his words, she didn't project any kind of rebellion or doubt or lie when she agreed. Unless Ocean decided otherwise I fully believe she'd dropped it, especially since she herself expressed many times how Vanessa disgusts her and how she doesn't want to have anything to do with her anymore.
I think Nika and Bella are slowly creating a good relationship. It was incredibly rocky and hostile at the start, but they've built a lot of trust, connection and balance since, something that has been talked about by most of their closest friends (especially Bella's friends have been vocal in their surprise over how close they've gotten so fast) and family. Nika has slipped behind Bella's defences and I would say she will obey him when he displays such conviction in the truth of his belief as he did this time. Personally I was blown away by her unquestioning agreement, something that demonstrated an immense amount of trust in him on her part.
I completely understand the concerns about Vanessa. I partially share them too. But it's literally so soon to make such bold statements.
She defended Mario in front of Nika and Zara when it was revealed that he is wearing a buttplug. She stood up to her mother who tried to manipulate her and Zara against their father.
No, it's not too soon. Would you say it's too soon to make bold statements about someone who's killed someone else? Exaggeration, but Vanessa has substantiated her behaviour by what she'd had Mario do. Unless he's in the closet, I don't personally know any straight man that will put a plug in his ass, so that on it's own demonstrates a shitload of control and thrall. Also remember that she stated one of the ways she keeps control over him is to dangle the sex-carrot in front of him, but confirmed she has no plan to actually have sex with him in the foreseeable future and they've been together for a year. A year with no sex and some petting at most at their age...
She's also not all bluster, her behaviour is testament to her, plus the way she easily enraptured Nami and perfectly manipulated her.
Mario is her property, her plaything. Of course she'll defend him. Despots always defend what belongs to them, even slave masters defended their slaves from being stolen or hurt by others without their permission. There's also been 10 years minimum of development between the mother cheating and present time. People change. Her father is authority figure who has control over her as a father and someone on whom she's completely dependent (she stated she has no plans to ever work for a living).
She doesn't see Nika equal yet, he's still beneath her, but she is getting interested as a scientist would in a new specimen.
You can see what she is doing to her boyfriend as a "defiant behaviour and bold words", you're free to do so; but to me that is a sign of much worse beneath the surface.
For now she seems content to trust his words, she didn't project any kind of rebellion or doubt or lie when she agreed. Unless Ocean decided otherwise I fully believe she'd dropped it, especially since she herself expressed many times how Vanessa disgusts her and how she doesn't want to have anything to do with her anymore.
I think Nika and Bella are slowly creating a good relationship. It was incredibly rocky and hostile at the start, but they've built a lot of trust, connection and balance since, something that has been talked about by most of their closest friends (especially Bella's friends have been vocal in their surprise over how close they've gotten so fast) and family. Nika has slipped behind Bella's defences and I would say she will obey him when he displays such conviction in the truth of his belief as he did this time. Personally I was blown away by her unquestioning agreement, something that demonstrated an immense amount of trust in him on her part.
No, it's not too soon. Would you say it's too soon to make bold statements about someone who's killed someone else? Exaggeration, but Vanessa has substantiated her behaviour by what she'd had Mario do. Unless he's in the closet, I don't personally know any straight man that will put a plug in his ass, so that on it's own demonstrates a shitload of control and thrall. Also remember that she stated one of the ways she keeps control over him is to dangle the sex-carrot in front of him, but confirmed she has no plan to actually have sex with him in the foreseeable future and they've been together for a year. A year with no sex and some petting at most at their age...
She's also not all bluster, her behaviour is testament to her, plus the way she easily enraptured Nami and perfectly manipulated her.
Mario is her property, her plaything. Of course she'll defend him. Despots always defend what belongs to them, even slave masters defended their slaves from being stolen or hurt by others without their permission. There's also been 10 years minimum of development between the mother cheating and present time. People change. Her father is authority figure who has control over her as a father and someone on whom she's completely dependent (she stated she has no plans to ever work for a living).
She doesn't see Nika equal yet, he's still beneath her, but she is getting interested as a scientist would in a new specimen.
You can see what she is doing to her boyfriend as a "defiant behaviour and bold words", you're free to do so; but to me that is a sign of much worse beneath the surface.
Vanessa just needs a strong man to tame her which mario obviously is not, thats why she is in control in their relationship.
If you behave like a simp, she will treat you like a simp. Just imagine being an beautiful, sexy, intelligent and rich young women being simped over all the time by guys. Its reasonable to start to see them as .. puppys or whatever .. they definitly arent equals, they are simps who want to devote themselves fully to a woman.
Nika obviosuly isnt simping for her which leads to a very different relationship dynamic.
I think shes fun and can be a valuable ally in the future no matter if in a relationship or as friends.
And i really respect her for defending her father against their horrific piece of shit of a mother and helping Zara to keep her self-esteem.
For now she seems content to trust his words, she didn't project any kind of rebellion or doubt or lie when she agreed. Unless Ocean decided otherwise I fully believe she'd dropped it, especially since she herself expressed many times how Vanessa disgusts her and how she doesn't want to have anything to do with her anymore.
I think Nika and Bella are slowly creating a good relationship. It was incredibly rocky and hostile at the start, but they've built a lot of trust, connection and balance since, something that has been talked about by most of their closest friends (especially Bella's friends have been vocal in their surprise over how close they've gotten so fast) and family. Nika has slipped behind Bella's defences and I would say she will obey him when he displays such conviction in the truth of his belief as he did this time. Personally I was blown away by her unquestioning agreement, something that demonstrated an immense amount of trust in him on her part.
No, it's not too soon. Would you say it's too soon to make bold statements about someone who's killed someone else? Exaggeration, but Vanessa has substantiated her behaviour by what she'd had Mario do. Unless he's in the closet, I don't personally know any straight man that will put a plug in his ass, so that on it's own demonstrates a shitload of control and thrall. Also remember that she stated one of the ways she keeps control over him is to dangle the sex-carrot in front of him, but confirmed she has no plan to actually have sex with him in the foreseeable future and they've been together for a year. A year with no sex and some petting at most at their age...
She's also not all bluster, her behaviour is testament to her, plus the way she easily enraptured Nami and perfectly manipulated her.
Mario is her property, her plaything. Of course she'll defend him. Despots always defend what belongs to them, even slave masters defended their slaves from being stolen or hurt by others without their permission. There's also been 10 years minimum of development between the mother cheating and present time. People change. Her father is authority figure who has control over her as a father and someone on whom she's completely dependent (she stated she has no plans to ever work for a living).
She doesn't see Nika equal yet, he's still beneath her, but she is getting interested as a scientist would in a new specimen.
You can see what she is doing to her boyfriend as a "defiant behaviour and bold words", you're free to do so; but to me that is a sign of much worse beneath the surface.
Alright guys. I fucked up drastically. You could just say they haven't had sex in a year.
Because as soon as I saw that, I immediately downloaded the game to see the proof with my own eyes.
I swear, I didn't know that. And I have no idea how it happened that I missed the most crucial line of the dialogue. And I didn't forget that line. Because I would definitely remember it.
I'm so ashamed right now that I spent so much time arguing without seeing the whole picture.
Yes! Thank you! Add Sasha and you're golden. My top 3 in terms of attractiveness is Maja > Sasha > Robin. Hard to believe that it used to be Nami > Bella > Nojiko but the rework and changes to the characters fucked them all up for me.
I know it's inevitable that once they get more screen time Ocean will ruin them too with disgustingly gigantic tits and asses but I can still enjoy them for now. If his other game is any indication to go by, most characters in SG will look as appealing as Shrek to me by the end of season 2
Damn reaction limit
