Ren'Py Summertime Saga [v21.0.0 wip.5003] [Kompas Productions]

[APoc1]

No one can offer real proof on either side of the argument only uncoupled observations. Sure in the eye of public opinion one side can win but that does not make anything true.
In a real investigation where things are actually on the line there is evidence before the presumption of any deed. All that we have is anecdotal observations. (yes anecdotal evidence can convict , but still can be uncoupled from the truth)
Here and in just about every thread where release dates are long the same tired arguments rage on and it does nothing for the community, it adds nothing imo.

 

[Omnikuken]

Sure, but milking isn't necessarily about need is it? In fact it's usually associated with greed. Whether or not the team necessarily needs the money they are making on donations doesn't really have much bearing on whether greed and/or laziness is driving them to artificially slow development. It makes a strong case that the game wasn't conceived to be milked from the get-go, but the fact that the development has slowed down drastically from when it used to be 1 decent sized update every couple months to only mini content fillers every 6 months for the past year and a half is a change that could feasibly be seen as a change in the attitude of the developer.

Again, I'm not asserting that they are... but the point is, nothing you (or the poster I initially responded to) brought up makes any kind of relevant argument against an assertion that they may have changed tack and have been intentionally milking their patreon for the last year or longer.

It's filler updates every 4 months though ..... And the "normal" updates are also ~4 months each. The only delay you can cry on is not getting the 16:9 new backgrounds and the code rehaul, everything else is bonus you get to pass the time and have something to do, as promised. Whether or not getting ~20 scenes in a year can be considered milking is up to you, be aware most people can and will laugh at you though

 

[boblicticious]

It's filler updates every 4 months though ..... And the "normal" updates are also ~4 months each. The only delay you can cry on is not getting the 16:9 new backgrounds and the code rehaul, everything else is bonus you get to pass the time and have something to do, as promised. Whether or not getting ~20 scenes in a year can be considered milking is up to you, be aware most people can and will laugh at you though

For the first couple of years the updates were coming once every 1 or 2 months. version 0.02 dropped in August '16, version 0.03 dropped in September '16, 0.08 in November '16 and 0.09 in December '16. A couple of years in the updates started taking longer, several months between a drop (but the content in the updates were bigger so it made sense). While a tech update does conceivably take a long time, the progress tracker hasn't moved out of the upper 60% completion range for almost a year.

Again, as I've said a couple times, I'm not asserting that they are milking. I'm not personally suffering from impatience for the next version of the game. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the arguments people have posted against the idea that they might be intentionally slowing development aren't actually providing any relevant evidence to the contrary.

I am enjoying the speculation though, and I admit that dark cookie for a long time has been a beacon of quality work, and timely updates with consistently respectable amounts of content. It seemed like STS was going to be one of the first high quality patreon games to actually get seen through to a satisfying end. That's what makes this interesting, a lot of people are emotionally invested in this developer's ethical reputation and in this game's reputation and completion.

 

[Count Morado]

I'm just pointing out that a lot of the arguments people have posted against the idea that they might be intentionally slowing development aren't actually providing any relevant evidence to the contrary.

However, you conveniently don't point out the people aren't providing any relevant evidence when they make the initial argument in favor of the idea that the developer is intentionally slowing. They don't make their case, but instead just whine.

As with all cases involving complaints, the people making the complaints are the ones who have the burden of proof - not the ones who are attempting to refute the scattered buckshot of personal opinions, hunches, and guesses.

And yes, updates are going to take longer and longer for what seems like enough content for an update to be required as the game continues to get larger and larger in content and storyline. It's a logical progression. The more there is already, the more substantial updates need to "make a difference."

 

[boblicticious]

However, you conveniently don't point out the people aren't providing any relevant evidence when they make the initial argument in favor of the idea that the developer is intentionally slowing. They don't make their case, but instead just whine.

As with all cases involving complaints, the people making the complaints are the ones who have the burden of proof - not the ones who are attempting to refute the scattered buckshot of personal opinions, hunches, and guesses.

And yes, updates are going to take longer and longer for what seems like enough content for an update to be required as the game continues to get larger and larger in content and storyline. It's a logical progression. The more there is already, the more substantial updates need to "make a difference."

For convenience I had thrown in a few arguments of my own. The progress tracker staying in the upper 60% for a year being the most suggestive. I honestly don't think I've done more than peek at this topic since late 2020, but I'm fairly certain I'm not the first one to bring up how little the progress bar has moved in the last year.

 

[Count Morado]

For convenience I had thrown in a few arguments of my own. The progress tracker staying in the upper 60% for a year being the most suggestive. I honestly don't think I've done more than peek at this topic since late 2020, but I'm fairly certain I'm not the first one to bring up how little the progress bar has moved in the last year.

You know there is a chart, you know it has moved slowly, but you don't know what the work is necessary for that bar to move. That isn't evidence, it's just assumptions based upon no actual knowledge - just that an image isn't updating as fast as some would like.

 

[boblicticious]

You know there is a chart, you know it has moved slowly, but you don't know what the work is necessary for that bar to move. That isn't evidence, it's just assumptions based upon no actual knowledge - just that an image isn't updating as fast as some would like.

Yes it has moved... but again, overall percentage has gone up 4% or 5% in a year when we got to mid 60% in a handful of months. If you imagine that progress goes as slow moving forward for the tech update as it has for this last year (~5% per year), the tech update won't drop until 2028... that's not an exaggeration.

And apparently I have to say it again, I'm not necessarily asserting that they are deliberately slowing development, I'm just pointing out that there are some indicators that suggest it could be happening. For all I know they will overcome the snag they've been stuck on for the last year and they'll be chugging that last 30% out in a few months.

 

[Omnikuken]

So the entire "DC is a milker cause reasons" argument stems from a tracker known to be hot garbage got stuck on the ever increasing # of junk to re-do for months ? How empty and devoid of most anything valid of argumentation can you get ? At least the typical milker's "DC makes ~80k a month, therefore the game should have been finished 3 years ago" has some basis in reality

 

[Count Morado]

Yes it has moved... but again, overall percentage has gone up 4% or 5% in a year when we got to mid 60% in a handful of months. If you imagine that progress goes as slow moving forward for the tech update as it has for this last year (~5% per year), the tech update won't drop until 2028... that's not an exaggeration.

And apparently I have to say it again, I'm not necessarily asserting that they are deliberately slowing development, I'm just pointing out that there are some indicators that suggest it could be happening. For all I know they will overcome the snag they've been stuck on for the last year and they'll be chugging that last 30% out in a few months.

Your second paragraph is akin to "I'm not saying the senator beats his wife, but I am saying I saw her wear a bandaid"
You can claim you aren't making an accusation, but your words say different.

Also, you feel the need to state something false in your attempt to show validity in your statements. The progress tracker was less than 60% near the end of October 2021, 63% in December 2021, and is now at 69%. It hasn't sat in the "upper 60% for a year", like you protest. It has gained almost 10% in the past 6 months. That is still slow (though 4x your assertion), so why the need to exaggerate when you claim you aren't accusing?
(edited)

 

[Omnikuken]

Your second paragraph is akin to "I'm not saying the senator beats his wife, but I am saying I saw her wear a bandaid"
You can claim you aren't making an accusation, but your words say different.

Also, you feel the need to state something false in your attempt to show validity in your statements. The progress tracker was less than 60% near the end of October 2021, 63% in December 2021, and is now at 69%. It hasn't sat in the "upper 60% for a year", like you protest. It has gained almost 10% (double the rate you state) in the past year. That is still slow, so why the need to exaggerate when you claim you aren't accusing?

Typical lies. It went up to 70% for a day then got shafted back down to 69% cause DC is obviously trying his best to find ways to delay stuff he finished more than 5 months ago. At least get your memes straight

 

[boblicticious]

Your second paragraph is akin to "I'm not saying the senator beats his wife, but I am saying I saw her wear a bandaid"
You can claim you aren't making an accusation, but your words say different.

Also, you feel the need to state something false in your attempt to show validity in your statements. The progress tracker was less than 60% near the end of October 2021, 63% in December 2021, and is now at 69%. It hasn't sat in the "upper 60% for a year", like you protest. It has gained almost 10% (double the rate you state) in the past year. That is still slow, so why the need to exaggerate when you claim you aren't accusing?

Just so you know, the first link you posted was to a post where someone was proclaiming the game itself would soon be 60% done (meaning 60% of the way to full completion, this wasn't a reference to the progress tracker's tech update completion percentage). The 2nd link may or may not be accurate... to be honest I'm going from memory from the last few times I checked the tracker from over a year ago (at which time I'm relatively certain it was sitting at 65%) and it's possible that I've confused myself... I'd be more trusting of this particular (63%) post as a solid recording of what the percentage actually was at the time if they had just said what the percentage was instead of saying a range of 60-63% (suggesting that they weren't actually looking at the tracker).

To address your first point, we can each come to our own conclusion how significant this lengthy a delay might be. Some people might look at the marked lack of progress and find a better analogy would be a senator with a small laceration on their knuckle standing next to their wife with a black eye possibly indicates he's beating her... Going hyperbolically obvious or exceedingly subtle with the analogy doesn't prove a point, it just betrays our opinion on how meaningful the evidence is to us personally.

 

[Count Morado]

Going hyperbolically obvious or exceedingly subtle with the analogy doesn't prove a point, it just betrays our opinion on how meaningful the evidence is to us personally.

You're projecting. While I'm a fan of hyperbole - everything I have put forth has been based upon as accurate statements as I can find at the time I am typing them. I cannot state the same for you.

On the other hand, you have provided nothing but your memory and figure of the situation - with no documented evidence to back it up. If anyone is betraying using opinion, it is yourself.

I have put forth information, would be glad to continue if you wish to continue, yourself - but first I ask you submit a couple actual pieces of evidence other than your hypotheses and recollections.

EDIT: Oh, and you're right, I linked the wrong post with that 60%, my apologies. Here's a post referencing it was at 57% in October after a couple of months at 50%. So the progress has actually gone up about 12% in 6 months, not the 10% I stated earlier. Still, it goes to disproving your claim at being in the high 60% for about a year.

EDIT2: and I just saw your hyperbolic dig with the senator having a scrape on his knuckle and his wife's black eye ... again exaggerating what was presented in order for you to attempt to make an unsupported claim.

EDIT3: Progress Chart at 47% in August 21 from 43% in July 21 - not even in the lower 60%. (was editing while you posted the following)

 

[boblicticious]

So the entire "DC is a milker cause reasons" argument stems from a tracker known to be hot garbage got stuck on the ever increasing # of junk to re-do for months ? How empty and devoid of most anything valid of argumentation can you get ? At least the tyical milker's "DC makes ~80k a month, therefore the game should have been finished 3 years ago" has some basis in reality

If you don't find it suggestive, that's fine. I'm not going to be upset in the least to be proven conclusively that the team is indeed hard at work and the tech update is indeed impending. I tried to make it pretty clear (by saying it 3 times) that I'm not asserting that milking is taking place, just that I can see why some people suspect that it is. The real point of my post was to point out irrelevancies in certain arguments trying to prove that the team couldn't possibly be milking their patreon. I can understand why many people take that to mean I'm asserting that I think the delays are intentional... but that's why I posted the disclaimer (3 times) that I'm not making that asssertion.

 

[Count Morado]

If you don't find it suggestive, that's fine. I'm not going to be upset in the least to be proven conclusively that the team is indeed hard at work and the tech update is indeed impending. I tried to make it pretty clear (by saying it 3 times) that I'm not asserting that milking is taking place, just that I can see why some people suspect that it is. The real point of my post was to point out irrelevancies in certain arguments trying to prove that the team couldn't possibly be milking their patreon. I can understand why many people take that to mean I'm asserting that I think the delays are intentional... but that's why I posted the disclaimer (3 times) that I'm not making that asssertion.

And you continue to do the same over and over again of stating that "I'm not asserting that milking is taking place... [but] just that I can see ..."

You continue to hedge instead of just stating that "you aren't asserting" and be done with it.
And again, the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion - which has yet to be done by anyone claiming or hinting or seeing how one could understand why someone would think that there is anything malicious being done by the developer to "milk" people who freely, without duress, decide to donate. Without proof of a claim, there is no validity to the claim outside just being whiny Karens.

 

[boblicticious]

You're projecting. While I'm a fan of hyperbole - everything I have put forth has been based upon as accurate statements as I can find at the time I am typing them. I cannot state the same for you.

On the other hand, you have provided nothing but your memory and figure of the situation - with no documented evidence to back it up. If anyone is betraying using opinion, it is yourself.

I have put forth information, would be glad to continue if you wish to continue, yourself - but first I ask you submit a couple actual pieces of evidence other than your hypotheses and recollections.

EDIT: Oh, and you're right, I linked the wrong post with that 60%, my apologies. Here's a post referencing it was at 57% in October after a couple of months at 50%. So the progress has actually gone up about 12% in 6 months, not the 10% I stated earlier. Still, it goes to disproving your claim at being in the high 60% for about a year.

EDIT2: and I just saw your hyperbolic dig with the senator having a scrape on his knuckle and his wife's black eye ... again exaggerating what was presented in order for you to attempt to make an unsupported claim.

What is it you think I'm projecting specifically? I'll have to go back and read my posts again but I'm relatively certain I didn't post any analogies to try to make a point (at least not prior to throwing my own interpretation on top of your senator beating his wife analogy). The point I was making is that the analogy you made and the analogy I made are customized to portray a level of significance to the evidence as opposed to actually proving a point. So maybe you read a little bit too much into my statement about hyperbolically obvious versus exceedingly subtle, it wasn't a statement about any other thing you said than to describe how the wife beating senator analogy only serves to express how much value you place on the significance of the delays.

 

[Count Morado]

What is it you think I'm projecting specifically? I'll have to go back and read my posts again but I'm relatively certain I didn't post any analogies to try to make a point (at least not prior to throwing my own interpretation on top of your senator beating his wife analogy). The point I was making is that the analogy you made and the analogy I made are customized to portray a level of significance to the evidence as opposed to actually proving a point. So maybe you read a little bit too much into my statement about hyperbolically obvious versus exceedingly subtle, it wasn't a statement about any other thing you said than to describe how the wife beating senator analogy only serves to express how much value you place in the delays.

You realize I'm enjoying this little tete a tete (though in public). It is obvious to see you took one simple analogy and ramped it up with exaggeration to "not make any assertion" to your claim.
You've not made any points. You have only talked in circles and used hyperbole and false memories and inaccuracies.

 

[boblicticious]

And you continue to do the same over and over again of stating that "I'm not asserting that milking is taking place... [but] just that I can see ..."

You continue to hedge instead of just stating that "you aren't asserting" and be done with it.
And again, the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion - which has yet to be done by anyone claiming or hinting or seeing how one could understand why someone would think that there is anything malicious being done by the developer to "milk" people who freely, without duress, decide to donate. Without proof of a claim, there is no validity to the claim outside just being whiny Karens.

The point is, the discussion has moved in a direction I wasn't trying to take it. My point was to specifically point out how irrelevant some arguments were, and the responses to me have been to try to disprove what I already explicitly said I wasn't asserting. If you want to go back to my initial couple of posts and directly address my arguments against one or two posts trying to defend the developer's honor, we can probably have a more productive discussion... but insofar as defending a position of the "milking scamlord" theory being real, that was never my intention. I can see scrolling back that many of you have been tirelessly arguing against the idea for months. And I can understand why someone coming in here with any kind of post coming accross as support for that viewpoint is going to twang that nerve. But I'm not the Karen you are looking for.

 

[Omnikuken]

Just to add some more fuel to this majestic dumpster fire : tech build started in March 2021. In what way, shape or form can any1 claim the tracker has been anything close to "60% for more than year" when we barely made it past that time mark 3 weeks ago ? Unless you wanna go back further into wack-zone and claim it was for the last part of main route, which in turn is still wrong since they were doing bugtesting and the tracker was around 99% for about a month

 

[boblicticious]

You realize I'm enjoying this little tete a tete (though in public). It is obvious to see you took one simple analogy and ramped it up with exaggeration to "not make any assertion" to your claim.
You've not made any points. You have only talked in circles and used hyperbole and false memories and inaccuracies.

I wouldn't keep engaging if I weren't enjoying it too. Are you legitimately trying to suggest that you think your initial analogy with the bandaid is an objective representation of the significance of the development speed?

 

[boblicticious]

Just to add some more fuel to this majestic dumpster fire : tech build started in March 2021. In what way, shape or form can any1 claim the tracker has been anything close to "60% for more than year" when we barely made it past that time mark 3 weeks ago ? Unless you wanna go back further into wack-zone and claim it was for the last part of main route, which in turn is still wrong since they were doing bugtesting and the tracker was around 99% for about a month

I see your point. I should have done more investigating before I pulled out values based on memory. The last version I have installed is .20.5 that's from 7/2020. After that point the discussion came up that a tech update including the aspect ratio change was forthcoming. That's when I decided to stop playing the game until the tech update was out with the better aspect ratio. My mistake was assuming that they started on it directly after .20.5 since I've been mostly ignoring STS until the release of the tech update. It's likely that the time I viewed the progress tracker over a year ago and saw it in the high 60's was for a version before they started on the tech update.