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- Jul 5, 2022
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- Jul 13, 2021
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Actually, it kinda does, not everytime, but it's there. This is why people, including me, are interested in calculations and the consistency of WW's narration.
Bernhardt said that he applied "a little pressure". Pressure is a real concept, extreme pressure can create these effects, perhaps not exactly how they are shown, but somewhere in the general ballpark.
So Bernhardt in the Himavat scene is doing something that is measurable. Any kind of energy can be transformed to some other without any problems and Kinetic energy is the easiest to grasp and make comparisons without too much hassle. There really isn't any problem in thinking that Bernhardt is capable of generating energy equivalent to hundreds of nukes.
Of course, there are other factors at play. For example a surface detonation is not the same as a detonation near a structural weakness. Perhaps Bernhardt is capable of attacking the Himavat from within, and requiring less Energy to break it apart than a hundred of surface nuclear explosions. But I would never dismiss an idea/simulation that just assumes Bernhardt attack's energy is equivalent to "hundreds of nuclear explosions", at least not without a good reason which comes from inside the game.
There's also different kinds of phenomena that can be explained by just "pressure". Was it atmospheric pressure (as the weight of atmosphere?), surface pressure (as generally applying force over a certain area), liquid pressure etc ? It's all pressure, but it tells us something about the mechanics. We can assume that it was atmospheric because that's what his powers seem to be about.
And through this analysis, we can wonder what will happen if Bernhardt tries to fight in the vacuum of space? This is a question with a lot of merit. At some point, MC may need to fight Bernhardt, and taking advantage of mechanics like this may be the key to victory. Such a scenario is not far fetched in the least. So despite being magical, which I absolutely agree that they are, we don't have to toss everything out, as long as all the assumptions we make are based on the information that the narrator gives us.
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- Jun 11, 2023
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At this point we are treading in a bit of unknown territory. MC had too much trouble versus the Twins. Yes Devana can't really do much to him, but Evander can and a level 2 shouldn't have such an easy time going against a level 3.
I have talked about how this scene leaves me with a very bad aftertaste. A murderous (as stated) MC should have already killed Devana with a stray tail and slapped Evander with half the forest by the end, but instead he was on the defensive till Shen got bored and decided to end it without any hint at resistance on MC's part.
So while I think that the Moon twins are beneath him, they will end up being the next roadblock, especially if they evolve. After all, there exist indications that they tend to grow much faster than other Superhumans. Of course MC also has an exceptional growth so we can't yet tell how they compare,
On the other hand, it doesn't feel like the Moon twins are supposed to be Antagonists, at least not by default.
These are my most anticipated scenarios:
1) A huge MC + Foxglove Twins vs Shen + Moon Twins fight.
I really like the Foxglove sisters and I want them to take a more active role. One of the problems however is that time doesn't wait for anyone and a brand new level 1 can't really compete without some form of timelapse. The idea that Twins somehow grow faster than usual however, could be the key to let them be relevant.
Such a fight that ends up in MC's favor will be huge. It will show that MC is superior as both a Superhuman and as a trainer, and set the Foxglove twins as useful allies rather than some newbies who still need to find their footing.
2) Foxglove Twins getting merged into a Superbeing, permanent or not.
The Fusion scenario was one of the first wild theories since we got confirmation that this is the "Twins Arc". It's also a cool way to avoid the time problem. It will be a new and exciting variable, with the potential to be formidable without going through the usual steps.
The Foxgove twins are shown as being the exact opposite. One is haphazard and extremely talented, the other is extremely dilligent but an underachiever in comparison. One is cold the other is hot etc.
And I think that this is why the fusion theory is so exciting. Because they have the potential to complete each other.
3) Solo MC vs multiple Ella kids.
This will require some setup, but MC should have started getting frustrated at this point. While his personal growth is well on it's tracks, he has very limited control over what is happening around him.
So at this point I think that a "Jean-Claude Van'Damme getting angry and owning shit" moment will work wonders to set the tone for the things to come. MC is supposed to become the best but his victories are always by the skin of his teeth and he didn't really have a chance to showcase "dominance" up to this point.
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so it seems claudia now has slithed irises, wonder if that is reptilian like power? perhaps something relating to ice?
- Aug 11, 2018
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Hope tomorrow is update, busty momma has been waiting a long time at the door.. it's past new year already.. she must be hAngry
- Jan 16, 2024
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Congratulations to everyone on reaching 800 pages, i would post a pic of the 8th but the light is actually buried at H.E.R.O Basement, so take this pic of Vergil watching the Superhuman thread instead.
I guess that the MC didn't fight more agressively because the moon brother's power was too dangerous for him like eletricity, as the sister was pretty much a pushover and was just mostly just providing support, though she can tank a lot of hits because of her creation ability so I doubt even if the MC focused on her he could finish her off before the brother or Shen intervened. If he was alone I doubt the MC would have any trouble fleeing the scene, but he had to protect the girls and Deryl so his best bet would be to stall for time and hope the other HERO guys finished their job of capturing the pink monster and came to help (or the HQ sent Nico to help, who knows if Zack or Deus are watching).
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For the Devana bit, I'll put it this way.
MC has this technique where he makes the enemy focus on him and then backstabs them with his tail. He did it against Danica, Klaus, Valravn, Wepwawet, Hydra Deryl, Michael.
Additionally MC has the ability to burrow and his tails are sentient. If MC really wants to kill Devana, all he has to do is command a burrowing tentacle to pierce her from below. Level 2 reflexes aren't anything special. Perhaps someone like Shen could evade an attack like this, but a level 2 without any significant "passive" defense? Doubtful. It feels a bit cheap to see MC suddenly "forget" about his core techniques.
Don't get me wrong, as a reader I don't even want MC to kill Devana. But I care about consistency and I dislike that in that particular scene MC ouright thinks about killing her but doesn't follow through.
Now for the fleeing bit, I agree. While MC is very fast, at least Mach 9, which should be too fast for lower level Superhumans without any mobility related ability, having to carry Deryl and twins would pose a significant challenge. Devana in particular could cause huge problems with her strapped bombs and other possible obstacles.
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- Aug 16, 2023
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1. There is not a single case happening in the story thus far. (although there is one hypothetical case mentioned. that of the level 5 fire guy burning away all of earth)
2. I literally addressed the hypothetical possibility at that some point some super will do so a few lines below what you quoted me saying
===
You are forgetting magical pressure, soul pressure, aura pressure.
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There is, the one I referenced and more. Bernhardt uses magic, and this magic causes atmospheric pressure to change by some mechanisms that we don't know and have no reason to care. Just like Malik's magic creates heat, Nico's creates wormholes (probably, not sure about this one), Alice's messes with Gravity and Dark Energy, MC's generates and alters mass, etc.
And this is why we can have interactions like Klaus' barrier being capable of burning through small objects, but being unable to stop big objects. Because it's based on heat, and small stuff burn faster than big stuff.
This is why MC does not turn huge, because there is the mass to volume ratio holding him back and making him inefficient. He makes a pass at this concept when training the mantis punch. "No. It slows the mechanism and weakens the punch, which is already by default slowed and weakened by scaling it up to human size. I also still dislocate my arm anyway". This is also why he has trouble shapeshifting when he wears his plate armor, because he has a harder time transmuting the metal which has more mass.
You are overzealous in trying to shoehorn this into your "everything is magic theory" (excuse me for paraphrasing). Bernhardt is obviously related to the air, both by MC's thoughts and the narrators explanation. he is capable of "fixing" the atmosphere, he creates a barrier out of what seems like pressurized air and then applies "pressure" to kill the monster.
I'm not "forgetting" these "magic pressure" ideas. I'm outright ignoring them. That's like proposing that Malik doesn't create fire, he creates magical energy that walks, talks and looks like fire. No, it's fire, created by magical means, and there is absolutely not a single reason to assume that it's otherwise. He gets to attack Ella with a burst of heat (Core Heat), or a flame (Ceaselessly Burning Flame). And the result is that Ella either atches flame or turns into ash, exactly the effect that we expected when fire interacts with a human body, pretty much proving that Ella's body composition, is clause to a normal human's, despite her being a shapeshifter.
How about trying to put these ideas in less abstract concepts? It's not muscle, it's a magical blob that looks like muscle, so MC doesn't punch, he uses magic to make some abstract thing that punches his enemies.
It's not electricity, it's some magic that somehow interacts with a superconductor in a special way and it leaves electric burns.
And while they don't use magic to "generate" the mundane energy, their magic creates effects that can be both conceptualized and measured in mundane ways.
Edit: Even Clark, who can empower a superhuman and make him stronger, says that his power is based on a real concept, called photobiomodulation. Why would the writer go in such lengths if he didn't want to introduce actual scientific concepts in the game.
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- Aug 16, 2023
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You have failed to produce a single example of someone converting their magic into purely non magical energy.
A. You are assuming that when he said "a little pressure" he was euhpemistically lying and meant a metric fuckton of pressure. Specifically you assume he meant "I completely removed all magic from it, converting it solely into a non magical physical force with more energy than 100 nukes going off together". Yet even though he was not speaking clearly, he must have meant the most literal definition of the word pressure. which you falsely insist can only mean one thing (more on that below)
And intentionally ignoring how bernhardt can physically transform his body into wind and then teleport across the world at near light speed. Somehow non magical wind clearly can not do. You attrbiute this to a failure of the author to understand the physics that govern wind. The author knows damn well that ordinary wind cannot think like a person and cannot move at near light speed.
B. You cannot even articulate exactly what nico and alice's powers do. Yet insist it somehow must be converting magic into purely non magical energies or matter.
C. You are ignoring the part where I explicitly stated that Berhard, Nico, and Malik are explicitly potential planet busters. Nico literally destroyed a demiplane.
D. The MC mass is absolutely 100% still magical. Which is why it starts evaporating when seperated from his body.
No, this is not at all equivalent. Level 5 powers are explicitly varied, exotic, and enter the realms of the conceptual.
Your insistence that someone who started with the power of fire at level 1, can literally do nothing BUT completely ordinary non magical fire at level 5 is absurd
Also, the term pressure has many varied meanings. Fire not so much.
If someone said "I applied a little fire to the enemy" it has very specific meaning.
If someone said "I applied a little pressure to the enemy" the meaning is not as clear due to the many ways to interpret that word.
He could have said "I applied a little wind to the enemy". wind has a very specific and clear meaning, unlike pressure.
I never said it is "a blob of magic that vaguely looks like fire".
It is [magical fire]. Comprised of both magic AND fire. The two are intertwined.
You are the one who is arguing for purely 100% non magical effects.
Don't put words in my mouth painting me as your polar opposite. I am not.
I am arguing for a hybrid effect.
It is magical fire. Not pure magic, not pure physics.
It is magical muscles on MC. Not pure biology, not pure magic.
If MC was creating purely biological constructs. Then why does his arm evaporate when detached from his body? It was explicitly mentioned to be related to the magical energy in his flesh.
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Are you sure you are responding to what I write? For someone who claims that I misrepresent his point and paint him something, you seem to have some comprehension issue or have confused me with someone else.
I'm taking the literal definition because it fits and makes sense. There's this thing called Occam's Razor. So unless you can prove that it's otherwise using the game's text, I see absolutely no reason why the "air guy" would apply "soul pressure".
The fact that you need better articulation than what I've written on Nico and Alice just shows your bias. You think it's some kind of "aha" moment but it's not. My argument is that magical powers can create mundane effects. I don't need to explain how Nico may expend power to fold dimensions, or how Alice switches between repulsive and attractive forces.
And I'm not ignoring anything about planet busters. I was the first who tried to explain that planet busting is normal for level 5 Superhumans in this discussion, and there is no need for "magic" to destroy a planet, so that's not an argument which helps your case.
Suffice to say, some of these effects are conceptually magical. Alice's contained gravity, Bernhardt transforming into air etc cannot be explained somehow even if some of the effects are measurable. The explosions can be explained though, no matter if they are galaxy busters or a light breeze. I never contented that point, but it seems I have to include even the things that I haven't said to cover all the bases.
This doesn't answer anything I've talked about. Even if magic is the method by which MC affects mass, the materials he creates are common. Once he reached level 3 he could create monster materials too, but his bones are diamond, not magic diamond.
So you say, I'm still waiting for your proof that any effect, unless explicitly stated or can't be mapped to a real life concept, is inherently magical. No matter if you think that it's absurd, the game does not support this notion.
Assume that a superhuman has the ability to travel FTL. That's magical. However as long as he travels up to the speed limit, the effect is not magical.
I will just reiterate my point. Just because magic exists, we don't have to toss everything else out of the window. Both can coexist in fictional works.
I mean, we can have a discussion about philology, no problem, but you do understand that 2 out of your 3 examples are actually wrong do you? How one goes about applying fire and wind? You apply heat, force, pressure, the things that by definition have an effect. Fire and Wind do not have an effect, they are just things. No one ever said that "we apply fire to cook the steak". We say "we apply heat to cook the stake". Are you going to argue that heat in this context can ever be "soul heat"?
When air and pressure are used in close proximity, thinking anything else than force/surface is overreaching.
I'm arguing that magic is capable of creating both magical effects and non magical effects, and the particular non magical effects are exactly the same as any mundane effect we can find in the real world. For example Malik's "Ceaselessly Burning Flame" is a hybrid, because no flame lasts forever without fuel, but Malik's magic can sustain it indefinitely. The flame however is exactly the same as the one you may find on a candle or through some other mundane mechanism.
And since you talked about MC's mass vanishing, Ella Doll explains this in detail. The mass created has to be sustained by the monster power. Once it loses the connection, the energy "disperses". Now guess what, there's an actual mechanism here. The energy does not vanish, isn't lost, instead it "disperses".
Reminds you of some concept? Like let's say, conservation? The narrator goes to extreme lengths (relative to the genre and the purpose of the VN) to keep things grounded on a scientific base. It happens everywhere throughout the game. It's not just magic. It's magic grounded in reality. It's like monster power is a form of energy, which can have multiple states and (at least partially) play by the rules that other types of energies do.
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- Aug 16, 2023
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So... you literally saw me replying to
>> Author does not understand physics. X Should do Y
with
> me: It is magical X. not mundane X
and decided to tell me I am wrong and that... magical powers can create mundane effects?
you should read more carefully.
I never argued that magic cannot do anything mundane.
I argued that when someone uses magic to create fire, they are creating magical fire that can do things normal fire cannot.
Which is how you can have MC think as a liquid, tiffany think as a living light beam, berhardt think as a gust of wind, and (probably) malik think as a fire.
As for intentionally TRYING to create a purely mundane fire that is constrained by the laws of physics?
they probably can do it. With varying degree of difficulty depending on the individual.
But need a good reason to even make the attempt.
Wrong.
MC's body is explicitly infused with magical energy throughout. As is every other superhuman.
This is why MC's bones evaporate when seperated from his main mass.
This is why electricity causes him to explode.
Real diamond does not evaporate in room temperature.
Real diamond does not EXPLODE when touched by electricity.
In fact it is explicitly a thing with MC making metal parts that, once chopped off, he has only a fraction of a second to grab and reconnect to if he wants to save it. He succeeds some times and fails others. causing him to lose mass.
Also this line of claim explicitly contradicts your earlier claim that your entire argument is that magic can create mundane effects.
When MC creates a mundane effect is when he modifies someone else's body. Even then there is explicitly energy in their body.
Remember when you transform that boy in the prison into a girl. It is explicitly mentioned how her new virginity melts away due to remnants of your power.
And when you experiment on prisoners, the energy goes out of control very easily once separated from your body. Requiring you to use very small amounts of energy with extreme control.
You misread yet again.
I replied to different arguments someone made.
Argument A: He incorrectly assumed that all attacks by a superhuman must convert magic into 100% non magical effects.
Argument B: He incorrectly assumed that the reason the earth was not blown up yet is because nobody exists with the power to bust planets. Which he argues is in conflict with "that mountain monster was more durable than X"
My counter argument for B was "planet busters DO exist. the reason the earth does not get blown up is due to its protects having space and time powers that ensure its safety."
You are falsely attributing my counter to argument B as if it was a counter to argument A. and thus thinking it is my argument for as to why "all attacks are magic"
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And I am telling you that the fire can be as mundane as it gets, and the magic can be used to power various effects, like burning without a power source, intensity etc.
MC doesn't think as a liquid, In fact if you choose to think as a liquid you get a deadend scene. MC commands his power to do something and it just happens. If he tries to think he dies.
We have no idea how Malik and Bernhardt experience their transformationo.
As for Tiffany, she just tells us that she moves with thought, not that she thinks while in light form. Her perception changes to something that she can't describe according to her words. Additionally in Tiffany's specific case, in transhumanism there exists the concept of light based nerves instead of electric ones so ending up capable of thought in her "light form" can be sci-fi instead of fantasy.
No, they create mundane effects and need a good reason to make them magical. The more advanced the superhuman, the more likely that the effects he creates are magical, but the core mechanisms are the simple ones, not the convoluted.
MC learns to make Iron by rearranging molecules, it's explained in one of the training events with Ella and discussions with Xanthe.
The Diamond does not evaporate, I already quoted the relevant mechanism.
You are quite a special case when it's so easy to call "wrong" while speculating and taking stuff in extreme isolation. Ella's Doll already explains much of the mechanics. Instead of speculating without basis and lazily making stuff up, I'd urge you to read the script and try to make connections between what you see and what the game tells you. Your references to the various tidbits of information are either imprecise or outright wrong.
There is no single authority who can tell if something is magical or mundane. However when someone says "I make fire" or "I apply pressure", you have to prove that fire doesn't mean fire but something other (magical fire in your case), and pressure doesn't mean pressure. No matter how hard you try to theorize, unless you specifically provide a quite that proves the fire and the pressure are not the ones that we know, you can't claim correctness.
How exactly this stuff has ANYTHING to do with me? What do I care if someone made whatever arguments? Did I make any relevant argument? Even if I somehow misread, why should I even engage on an argument that has nothing to do with me?
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MC's "iron" explicitly evaporates when disconnected from his body and explodes when touched by electricity.
Real iron does not do either of those things.
This is because MC's iron is magic iron, not mundane iron.
Some of its properties match that of mundane iron.
Some of its properties differ from that of mundane iron.
Can MC generate true mundane iron? At the moment he cannot. In the future he might figure it out.
In fact, once MC can reliably create purely non magical materials, he would be able to fully immunize himself against his vulnerability of lightning with his armor.
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- Jul 13, 2018
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The problem with the Moon Twins fight, for me, was MC taking too long to adjust to them. The moment he saw Evander get hit by a tree and sent flying is the moment he should've realized that reinforcing his body more, and hitting him fast enough before the disintegration takes place, is the way to beat him. It's pretty much Klaus fight again, but with a higher tier power now. Instead, he was taking hits after hits. As for Devana, while he didn't necessarily have to kill her flat out, he shouldn't have had any problem closing the distance between them and knocking her out.
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Well, your posts are getting predictable at this point.
1) You completely ignore the pieces that you can't contest, like I never mentioned them.
2) You hang on some word that you take out of context or failing to understand it's context in the first place as an "aha" moment.
3) You whine that I twist your arguments while you casually strawman me.
4) You continue using your ideas as proof despite, even when shown proof that the game's text contradicts you, without even making an attempt to explain yourself.
Look, if you are going to make a discussion based on physics, do your homework. Different fuels create flame with different temperatures and Malik provides the fuel which I already said it's magical, There is not a speck of inconsistency in my post, but you do you.
Certainly, like you read the bit about "evaporation", like you read the bit about your "aura/soul/magic pressure" ideas. And the funniest part is that you accuse me of ignoring the facts when I literally use the script to counter your arguments, and instead of attempting to prove me wrong, you claim that you "read far more".
Sure, you do you.
Are you talking about the "kamehame" post that I quoted? Where in that post does it mention planet busters?
You said:
Game said:
You said:
I don't see how I misrepresented it (basically I don't even see how I quoted it in the first place, but whatever). In fact not only that didn't happen, but I stayed polite despite your tone.Me said:
But it seems like your only line of defense is claiming that I twist your arguments.
Well, polite time is over. If you want to continue this discussion
1) Learn to read. Some better comprehension will go along way to stop you from accusing me of twisting your words all the time.
2) Learn that insinsting on your ideas without any attempt of proof, when someone challenges it with a direct quote from the only authority in this discussion (the game), is childish.
3) Learn enough physics to avoid having to discuss about stuff like the flame.
4) Pull that stick out of your ass and stop strawmaning me while claiming that I somehow twist your arguments. My arguments are not even relevant to what you are insinuating. I don't care if you think Superhumans are capable of creating mundane effects as it's not part of the discussion. I only care that you are trying to prove that the effects are inherently magical.
The premises are
Mine: The effects are inherently mundane and can be augmented with magic.
Yours: The effects are inherently magical and have the potential to be mundane.
That's the only thing that drives my responses. I don't misrepresent, and I don't care for satellite arguments unless I believe that they directly contradict the written script.
Edit: Just to make it clear to people who read my posts. As it stands, I currently believe that every effect we see in the game, which looks familiar to a real life concept, like fire, mass, teleportation etc, can be measured exactly how a scientist would measure it in a lab. The medium that makes these effects happen is monster energy, which is anyone's perogative if he believes it's more of a fantasy concept or a sci-fi / exotic material one. I think it's a mix based on the concepts of annihilation and exotic matter, but it expresses itself in ways that are mostly fantastical.
This opinion may change in the future if we get information on the particulars. As it stands, I believe that the only hint that supports the "magic" idea is Xanthe's assertion that in order to turn monster biology into functional technology, it requires a "magical" element, along with his opinion on why MC can't mimic other powers despite shapeshifting into them (the bit about lifeforce). This says something about the medium, not necessarily the effect.
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