VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.996 Public] [WeirdWorld]

[Gtdead]

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

2. Dream is primary in utility, not technique. Jake has an array of special attacks, and yet against Alexis he uses words. Same stuff here.

We have an example of HERO's interrogator being able to use Memory to connect to others visually. Demi is unable to control perception of others in any meaningful way. Her power can be better explained by very real psychological phenomenon (

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). She exercises power of desire onto an inanimate object as a medium, entirety within Authority's portfolio with Jake's Imprint and everything else Demi did, and then someone affected by it makes up reason to approach said object, which manifests itself as a hallucination.

1. Elijah just noticed a flicker when he turned his head. He never dispelled the illusion, the Argils still looked like human and the scene was interrupted by Kira landing next to him. And he never dispelled the Eisheth illusions despite knowing that they were fake.

2. Demi has shown to affect perception and you can't explain a power which affects dumb rock monsters on a psychological phenomenon.
That's like trying to argue that dogs are so confident at everything they do because of Dunning-Kruger. Dogs don't even process things like humans do.
If it was just humans I'd entertain it but the C Rank hunt makes this point hard to digest.

Your Jake example is wrong.
Jake forces his Target to imprint to anyone Jake wants. That's why he can make Deryl imprint to Ella despite her not being there.
Jake does not force other people to imprint to his Target.

Every time Jake uses his power, only the affected will act differently, not their satellites, not some random bystander.
This is completely opposite to Demi's power who charms a Target and the others see that Target as an object of desire.

 

[sexoffended]

1. Elijah just noticed a flicker when he turned his head. He never dispelled the illusion, the Argils still looked like human and the scene was interrupted by Kira landing next to him. And he never dispelled the Eisheth illusions despite knowing that they were fake.

2. Demi has shown to affect perception and you can't explain a power which affects dumb rock monsters on a psychological phenomenon.
That's like trying to argue that dogs are so confident at everything they do because of Dunning-Kruger. Dogs don't even process things like humans do.
If it was just humans I'd entertain it but the C Rank hunt makes this point hard to digest.

Your Jake example is wrong.
Jake forces his Target to imprint to anyone Jake wants. That's why he can make Deryl imprint to Ella despite her not being there.
Jake does not force other people to impring to his Target.

Every time Jake uses his power, only the affected will act differently, not their satellites, not some random bystander.
This is completely opposite to Demi's power who charms a Target and the others see that Target as an object of desire.

1. Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception. It doesn't mean they can't do that. Also Elijah started to see illusions on Argils flicker afterwards. Don't forget about assumed memory component.

2. Don't be obtuse. It's well established that monsters have minds desires included. Jake's order to run away worked on oil zombies.

I used Imprint as common point to establish that Authority can create and control desires.
And I used Demi as an example of mixed lineage capable of using mediums for Authority powers. Shen has Memory line, therefore capable of using other people to channel his power.

 

[myst0501]

1. Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception. It doesn't mean they can't do that. Also Elijah started to see illusions on Argils flicker afterwards. Don't forget about assumed memory component.

Do you have a quote for when Kira says not to bother dispelling the illusions? Because the only thing she says is to put aside his morals and focus on taking down their target.

"The humans shimmer and change, each one of them taking on Eisheth's visage, a thousand of her smirking faces leering at Elijah."
Eisheth "Shall we play some hide and seek?"
Kira "You ready Elijah?"
Elijah "W-Wait, we can't...."
Kira "Now's not the time for your fucking morals Eli. Let's kill this cunt."
Elijah "But the people...."
Kira "Only one of them has power. Sense her, and strike."
Elijah "The collateral damage though, we can't just-"
Kira "So you're just gonna lay down and let this bitch kill you!? How many humans do you think that will save you fucking moron!!"
Kira "The faster we kill her, the faster this ends, the less humans die."
Elijah "I... You're right."

 

[sexoffended]

This isn't quite true. Shen continues to taunt Elijah for a while after via an illusionary double. Elijah, at this point, is well aware that what he is seeing is an illusion, yet he still sees it.

Eli is too busy being a bitch to do anything remotely productive.

 

[sexoffended]

Do you have a quote for when Kira says not to bother dispelling the illusions? Because the only thing she says is to put aside his morals and focus on taking down their target.

Focus on detecting power to target her.

 

[myst0501]

Focus on detecting power to target her.

Right, but that's not my point. You said that kira told him not to bother with dispelling the illusions, and that they still had the ability to do so, but choose not to. Where was that said?

Eli is too busy being a bitch to do anything remotely productive.

Elijah's supposed bitch status is neither here nor their.

 

[sexoffended]

Right, but that's not my point. You said that kira told him not to bother with dispelling the illusions, and that they still had the ability to, but choose not to. Where was that said?


Elijah's supposed status as a bitch is neither here nor their.

Reading comprehension is an important skill.
"Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job" is close to what I said. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.

Jake's bitch status was the thing that made him unable to force Jared that one time.

 

[Gtdead]

1. Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception. It doesn't mean they can't do that. Also Elijah started to see illusions on Argils flicker afterwards. Don't forget about assumed memory component.

2. Don't be obtuse. It's well established that monsters have minds desires included. Jake's order to run away worked on oil zombies.

I used Imprint as common point to establish that Authority can create and control desires.
And I used Demi as an example of mixed lineage capable of using mediums for Authority powers. Shen has Memory line, therefore capable of using other people to channel his power.

1) The memory component is what we are trying to prove or disprove. It's not something to be taken for granded. Kira said that tthat they can just read the energy of each individual to understand who the real Eiseth is. There is a relevant HERO class for this ability. Dude you are making way too many blunders and you make a pass about reading comprehension. The snark is not needed.

2) Dogs also have desires and minds, they just don't process things like humans. You can attract a dog but you can't apply psychological principles that have only been proven on humans. So this argument falls flat when attempting to explain the powers, especially when there is a disconnect between the explanation and what we see.

Demi is clearly shown to apply her power to a Target and attract some other being to that Target. Jake is clearly shown to force his Target to imprint, not others to imprint to his target.

 

[myst0501]

Reading comprehension is an important skill.

Agreed, it is, I hope you follow through on that.

"Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job" is close to what I said. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.

Fine, let's break it down point by point.

1. "Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job"
You said " Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception."
No where in this do you mention collateral damage, but you do mention dispelling illusions. Dispelling is a very different to disregarding. Words have meaning, and as you said, reading comprehension is an important skill.

2. is close to what I said.
Close is just that, close. Changing out just a few words and omitting others can entirely change the meaning of what you say, which I'm sure you are aware of.

3. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence.
How do we know this? Where was it stated or shown that Elijah was close or even capable of shrugging off shen's supposed influence. This come across as an assumption without evidence.

4. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.
Entirely subjective view of him, and meaningless to his ability to "shrug off shen's influence".

Finally, while were sharing advice on bettering ourselves, my suggestion is avoid making assumptions or presenting those assumptions as fact.

 

[sexoffended]

1) The memory component is what we are trying to prove or disprove. It's not something to be taken for granded. Kira said that tthat they can just read the energy of each individual to understand who the real Eiseth is. There is a relevant HERO class for this ability. Dude you are making way too many blunders and you make a pass about reading comprehension. The snark is not needed.

2) Dogs also have desires and minds, they just don't process things like humans. You can attract a dog but you can't apply psychological principles that have only been proven on humans. So this argument falls flat when attempting to explain the powers, especially when there is a disconnect between the explanation and what we see.

Demi is clearly shown to apply her power to a Target and attract some other being to that Target. Jake is clearly shown to force his Target to imprint, not others to imprint to his target.

Memory component will explain:
Shen's ability to find weaknesses in people, channel his power through them, construct entire scenes for them to immerse.

Authority component will explain:
Shen's ability to make someone see memory as something present, keep targets in constructed sleep against their will, compound power of sleep with time, affect someone 1 lvl higher.

Your theory bases everything on dubious speculation of 10th being Illusion. Including the intel required for illusion to be effective.

I used Jake's Imprint and Demi's desire manipulation to prove that Demi has significant Authority lineage. Nothing else.
I used Demi's desire manipulation and scientific research to explain how her power can produce "illusions" and why they are different from person to person an unknown to Demi herself. That's because they are hallucinations produced individually under mind control. Dogs are irrelevant to this discussion because first we don't know and can't research their behaviour in this level of detail and second I used Jake's order to zombies as an example of Authority affecting seemingly mindless creatures.
Demi clearly has power with strong Authority component.

Shen's illusion is memory forced into hallucination by mind control. No new speculations introduced.

 

[sexoffended]

Agreed, it is, I hope you follow through on that.



Fine, let's break it down point by point.

1. "Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job"
You said " Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception."
No where in this do you mention collateral damage, but you do mention dispelling illusions. Dispelling is a very different to disregarding. Words have meaning, and as you said, reading comprehension is an important skill.

2. is close to what I said.
Close is just that, close. Changing out just a few words and omitting others can entirely change the meaning of what you say, which I'm sure you are aware of.

3. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence.
How do we know this? Where was it stated or shown that Elijah was close or even capable of shrugging off shen's supposed influence. This come across as an assumption without evidence.

4. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.
Entirely subjective view of him, and meaningless to his ability to "shrug off shen's influence".

Finally, while were sharing advice on bettering ourselves, my suggestion is avoid making assumptions or presenting those assumptions as fact.

1, 2. I didn't quote everything verbatim. And I don't need to, by your own words it was close.

3. How else do you explain him seeing flickering images of people over monsters and then blasting everyone out?

4. Jake failed to give order to Jared an got beaten because he was a bitch. Elijah failed to completely overpower illusions and lost because he was a bitch.
Authority affects everyone according to their mentality and there's nothing subjective about that fact.

Learn to read.

 

[myst0501]

1, 2. I didn't quote everything verbatim. And I don't need to, by your own words it was close.

3. How else do you explain him seeing flickering images of people over monsters and then blasting everyone out?

4. Jake failed to give order to Jared an got beaten because he was a bitch. Elijah failed to completely overpower illusions and lost because he was a bitch.
Authority affects everyone according to their mentality and there's nothing subjective about that fact.

Learn to read.

1 + 2: You said it was close, my entire point is that the words and therefore the meaning was entirely different between the two. Take your own advice.

3. The same way I explain Shen's image having a hole in it when Elijah shot a ball through it, Shen's powers are not flawless. Add that to the fact that he is facing superhumans significantly stronger than him, its not strange for Shen's abilities to falter or not be as effective as they would be against someone weaker.

4. Consider what authority means in this context. Jake failed to order Jared around because he felt he lacked authority, once he felt that way it worked. You're suggesting elijah failed to overpower the illusion because he was "a bitch".
I'm not sure why Elijahs feelings should matter for the one on the receiving end of a power based on one's own sense of authority. Whether Elijah views himself as a bitch, whether he is actually a bitch, doesn't change how Shen views himself in that situation and therefore the efficacy of his power as shown in the jake example with jared.

Again, I will also add that your view of Elijah is entirely subjective. I could make the counter argument that his strong moral qualms about hurting innocents doesn't imply weakness or being "a bitch". Instead I could argue that his almost fanatical desire to do good and be a hero should give him a higher sense of "authority" and make it easier to break free of shen's illusion, that is assuming they're based on authority.

 

[sexoffended]

1 + 2: You said it was close, my entire point is that the words and therefore the meaning was entirely different between the two. Take your own advice.

3. The same way I explain Shen's image having a hole in it when Elijah shot a ball through it, Shen's powers are not flawless. Add that to the fact that he is facing superhumans significantly stronger than him, its not strange for Shen's abilities to falter or not be as effective as they would be against someone weaker.

4. Consider what authority means in this context. Jake failed to order Jared around because he felt he lacked authority, once he felt that way it worked. You're suggesting elijah failed to overpower the illusion because he was "a bitch".
I'm not sure why Elijahs feelings should matter for the one on the receiving end of a power based on one's own sense of authority. Whether Elijah views himself as a bitch, whether he is actually a bitch, doesn't change how Shen views himself in that situation and therefore the efficacy of his power as shown in the jake example with jared.

Again, I will also add that your view of Elijah is entirely subjective. I could make the counter argument that his strong moral qualms about hurting innocents doesn't imply weakness or being "a bitch". Instead I could argue that his almost fanatical desire to do good and be a hero should give him a higher sense of "authority" and make it easier to break free of shen's illusion, that is assuming they're based on authority.

1,2. Again, I view Kira's words to push Elijah to kill the monster above everything else as her wanting to disregard illusions. Learn to read.

3. Shen can make illusions alright, I don't argue against it. How a hole in one of it makes them something else? How Shen being weaker means anything else besides not being able to put Eli or Kira to sleep immediately? Learn to read.

4. Elijah was too emotional and therefore more vulnerable to influence of Authority. Instead of focusing on severing the connection he kept getting more agitated until he made a massive blunder that cost Kira her arm. Elijah therefore is a bitch. Learn to read.

 

[myst0501]

1,2. Again, I view Kira's words to push Elijah to kill the monster above everything else as her wanting to disregard illusions. Learn to read.

3. Shen can make illusions alright, I don't argue against it. How a hole in one of it makes them something else? How Shen being weaker means anything else besides not being able to put Eli or Kira to sleep immediately? Learn to read.

4. Elijah was too emotional and therefore more vulnerable to influence of Authority. Instead of focusing on severing the connection he kept getting more agitated until he made a massive blunder that cost Kira her arm. Elijah therefore is a bitch. Learn to read.

1 & 2: Again, my entire point for that is the word disregard was not the term you originally used. Originally you said dispel, which has an entirely different meaning and implications to disregard in that situation and your assertion that Elijah could and was capable of "shrugging of shen's influence."

3. A. "Shen can make illusions alright, I don't argue against it."
Your entire point is that shen's illusions are based on memory and authority, and therefore follow rules and patterns those traits have shown so far.
B. "How a hole in one of it makes them something else?"
Because you of your assertion that "Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it.".
C. "How Shen being weaker means anything else besides not being able to put Eli or Kira to sleep immediately?"
First you on memory, "I suspect that taking out someone's memories with this speed, precision and completeness will be almost impossible for someone stronger than MC and absolutely impractical for targets weaker."
Second Ella on using authority on a stronger superhuman, ""If that woman gets even a whiff of something unnatural, she'll figure you out in an instant and break free."

4. Being vulnerable to authority because of emotion is an assumption without evidence. Was Jared emotional when Jake took control over him? Was Alexis emotional when Jake managed get his powers to affect her?
In fact, it wasn't until Alexis was enraged and highly emotional that she broke free of the effect on her.

I sincerely hope you take your own advice going forward.

 

[sexoffended]

1 & 2: Again, my entire point for that is the word disregard was not the term you originally used. Originally you said dispel, which has an entirely different meaning and implications to disregard in that situation and your assertion that Elijah could and was capable of "shrugging of shen's influence."

3. A. "Shen can make illusions alright, I don't argue against it."
Your entire point is that shen's illusions are based on memory and authority, and therefore follow rules and patterns those traits have shown so far.
B. "How a hole in one of it makes them something else?"
Because you of your assertion that "Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it.".
C. "How Shen being weaker means anything else besides not being able to put Eli or Kira to sleep immediately?"
First you on memory, "I suspect that taking out someone's memories with this speed, precision and completeness will be almost impossible for someone stronger than MC and absolutely impractical for targets weaker."
Second Ella on using authority on a stronger superhuman, ""If that woman gets even a whiff of something unnatural, she'll figure you out in an instant and break free."

4. Being vulnerable to authority because of emotion is an assumption without evidence. Was Jared emotional when Jake took control over him. Was Alexis emotional when Jake managed get his powers to affect her?
In fact, it wasn't until Alexis was enraged and highly emotional that she broke free of the effect on her.

I sincerely hope you take your own advice going forward.

1,2. Kira telling Eli to focus on Eisheth directly means to ignore illusions. That also means not bothering to dispel them. To disregard also means not to dispel in this context.

3. A: Mixed lineage - no contradiction.
B: Elijah instead of cutting the connection was arguing with Shen allowing him to transfer more energy. No contradiction.
C: I said that about PURE MEMORY TRAIT MC HAS.
Jake was manipulating lvl5 at lvl2. Shen is lvl4.
No contradiction.

4. Jake was emotional when issuing order to Jared, disrupting it. Alexis wasn't vigilant enough, allowing Jake to accumulate his power "hooks". No contradiction.

You can't read.

 

[myst0501]

1,2. Kira telling Eli to focus on Eisheth directly means to ignore illusions. That also means not bothering to dispel them. To disregard also means not to dispel in this context.

3. A: Mixed lineage - no contradiction.
B: Elijah instead of cutting the connection was arguing with Shen allowing him to transfer more energy. No contradiction.
C: I said that about PURE MEMORY TRAIT MC HAS.
Jake was manipulating lvl5 at lvl2. Shen is lvl4.
No contradiction.

4. Jake was emotional when issuing order to Jared, disrupting it. Alexis wasn't vigilant enough, allowing Jake to accumulate his power "hooks". No contradiction.

You can't read.

1 and 2: I'm not now and nor have I ever disputed the fact that Kira told Elijah to ignore the illusions, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.
disregard = not dispel, is an assumption.

3A: Just stating mixed lineage means nothing.
3B: What does "allowing Shen to transfer more energy", have to do with your assertion that "Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it." If we assume that Shen's powers are based on authority, it should have been immediately dispelled once he knew the "exact application of it."
3C: Why are you assuming all of these qualities for pure memory, and suggesting that now because its no longer pure those assumed qualities no longer apply? Shouldn't you also apply those same assumptions to authority while it is mixed in with memory as you suggest?

4. Jake failed to order jared around because he didn't believe in his own authority over him. We've still seen nothing to suggest being emotional equates to vulnerability to the authority trait.


me: Miraculously replies, in spite of a crippling and tragic inability to read.

 

[sexoffended]

1 and 2: I'm not now and nor have I ever disputed the fact that Kira told Elijah to ignore the illusions, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.
disregard = not dispel, is an assumption.

3A: Just stating mixed lineage means nothing.
3B: What does "allowing Shen to transfer more energy", have to do with your assertion that "Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it." If we assume that Shen's powers are based on authority, it should have been immediately dispelled once he knew the "exact application of it."
3C: Why are you assuming all of these qualities for pure memory, and suggesting that now because its no longer pure those assumed qualities no longer apply? Shouldn't you also apply those same assumptions to authority while it is mixed in with memory as you suggest?

4. Jake failed to order jared around because he didn't believe in his own authority over him. We've still seen nothing to suggest being emotional equates to vulnerability to the authority trait.


me: Miraculously replies, in spite of a crippling and tragic inability to read.

1,2. Choice A - to combat illusions and try to dispel them. Choice B - to ignore illusions and do something else. Those choices are mutually exclusive. 0 assumptions were made.

3. A,C: Mixes have powers different from pure lineages. Pure Memory was shown so far to be able to connect wielder to information within certain things and beings, read and in a limited way manifest it. For someone of 100% 4th line to manipulate memory with such skill, as to remove particular elements of specifically fresh memory with almost no delay, will be close to impossible.
Shen makes connection with target's mind (1st and 4th), finds memory-vulnerability (4th), makes target accept it as something within FOV (1st), or constuct a dream out of it (4th) and pushes target's mind into it (1st), or radiates his energy out of them to affect others (1st and 4th)

4, 3B. Mind control affects people differently based on their current state and overall mentality. It's not rocket science.

 

[Gtdead]

Memory component will explain:
Shen's ability to find weaknesses in people, channel his power through them, construct entire scenes for them to immerse.

Authority component will explain:
Shen's ability to make someone see memory as something present, keep targets in constructed sleep against their will, compound power of sleep with time, affect someone 1 lvl higher.

Your theory bases everything on dubious speculation of 10th being Illusion. Including the intel required for illusion to be effective.

I used Jake's Imprint and Demi's desire manipulation to prove that Demi has significant Authority lineage. Nothing else.
I used Demi's desire manipulation and scientific research to explain how her power can produce "illusions" and why they are different from person to person an unknown to Demi herself. That's because they are hallucinations produced individually under mind control. Dogs are irrelevant to this discussion because first we don't know and can't research their behaviour in this level of detail and second I used Jake's order to zombies as an example of Authority affecting seemingly mindless creatures.
Demi clearly has power with strong Authority component.

Shen's illusion is memory forced into hallucination by mind control. No new speculations introduced.

Shen doesn't need to find any weakness in people. This isn't what is happening here.
1. The humans -> Eisheth illusion was premeditated
2. The trick he used vs Elijah didn't require any specific knowledge, he already knew who Elijah is and he states that.
3. While MC is in the paths, there is no specific instance of MC getting any kind of crippling fear or negative emotion due to Shen's power despite Syla saying that she can't protect him.
4. Against the HERO agents in the Battle of Diamonds, he didn't use any specific knowledge taken from memory, he just overwhelmed him with visages of various monsters.

Basically Memory doesn't have anything at all to do with these effects. Shen creates the equivalent of a horror movie. He doesn't need to know something specific about the audience. He creates a scene and uses his power to do some kind of psychic damage.

I don't disagree that a different power, other than Illusion, can explain Shen's illusions.
1. Memory can potentially change perception in a way that makes humans and humanoid monsters intistinguisable.
2. Authority can potentially force someone to think that humanoid monsters and humans are the same thing.
3. Light can potentially create illusions. After all in real life, what humans understand as illusions some times are tricks of light and odd interactions with color.
4. Dark can potentially create illusions, mimicking things (not sure how, but sensory deprivation is part of the portfolio, like Valravn's Black Night attack stopping sound).

The problem is the scope:
Memory affects a specific target's perception.
Authority affects a specific target's behavior.

Every example you give in relation to these traits has to follow these principles because this is what Jake and MC respectively, have shown us.

I'm not disputing the reason why you brought up Jake. You don't need the Authority:Imprint ability to match him to Demi, her passive is more than enough as it's literally the exact same effect. When MC fights Clover, he has to hold back because Demi's power forces him to not harm her. This pretty much proves the Authority component.

However I'm insisting that Jake's powers affect only the chosen Target. So using him as an example points to Authority NOT working like either Shen's illusions or Demi's object charm.

We need a power that
a) Affects an object
b) Everyone's perception changes in relation to that object.

You claim that your argument about Shen is supposed to eliminate speculation. But this can't be true. Since we don't have an obvious mechanism for either Authority or Memory that matches both the effect we perceive, and the narrator's description. We are forced into speculation.

You obviously have an issue with having to attribute Shen's powers to an Apostle that we know nothing of and I can accept this, but I still disagree with your analysis at a very basic level and your argument is heavy speculation on Demi's powers. I also think that you are trying to fit the data to your theory and not the theory to data, as I've noticed that you take a lot of freedoms with certain scenes, as myst0501 pointed out. We should be able to agree at what the scene depicts, but we don't. It may be my fault, it may be yours. I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible and quote the narrator.

The basis of your argument as I understand it is:
1. Demi can affect an object in relation to a target.
2. Shen can affect an object in relation to a target.
3. Demi has part of the Authority trait because reasons.
4. Demi's charm object ability is part of Authority. <---------- This is where I disagree 100%, Demi has a mixed trait with some Authority
5. Due to 1 and 2, Shen is also part Authority.

Jake is the ultimate authority (no pun intended) on how the Authority trait works. If someone's power doesn't follow the same principles, then it's probably something else. Just because Demi, who has a mixed trait, has a partly similar ability, it doesn't mean that all her abilities come from the same trait. It only means that her power has an Authority component.

As long as the narrator asserts that Shen affects the humans and not the Superhumans, then the effect can't possibly be matched to neither Jake's Authority abilites, nor MC's Memory abilities. It can only be matched to Demi's.

There exist instances where the narrator isn't sure. This isn't one of these cases. We have to take it for granded.

Sorry for repeating myself over and over, but I need to drive that point of my argument.
Past that, we can agree to disagree. No problem with that.

 

[myst0501]

1,2. Choice A - to combat illusions and try to dispel them. Choice B - to ignore illusions and do something else. Those choices are mutually exclusive. 0 assumptions were made.

3. A,C: Mixes have powers different from pure lineages. Pure Memory was shown so far to be able to connect wielder to information within certain things and beings, read and in a limited way manifest it. For someone of 100% 4th line to manipulate memory with such skill, as to remove particular elements of specifically fresh memory with almost no delay, will be close to impossible.
Shen makes connection with target's mind (1st and 4th), finds memory-vulnerability (4th), makes target accept it as something within FOV (1st), or constuct a dream out of it (4th) and pushes target's mind into it (1st), or radiates his energy out of them to affect others (1st and 4th)

4, 3B. Mind control affects people differently based on their current state and overall mentality. It's not rocket science.

1+2: Your assumption is that choice A even exists.

3. Assumptions leading to an interesting theory. We know little to nothing about the differences between "mixes" and pure lineages. We really do not even know exactly what constitutes "pure" and "not pure".

4. "Mind control affects people differently based on their current state and overall mentality."
Do I even need to say it?
Also Jake, and in your theory's case Shen's, power isn't actually mind control, its authority. As I said before different words have different meanings and implications. Jake's authority can be applied to control minds, but that doesn't mean that is what defines authorities full capabilities and origin.

 

[sexoffended]

Shen doesn't need to find any weakness in people. This isn't what is happening here.
1. The humans -> Eisheth illusion was premeditated
2. The trick he used vs Elijah didn't require any specific knowledge, he already knew who Elijah is and he states that.
3. While MC is in the paths, there is no specific instance of MC getting any kind of crippling fear or negative emotion due to Shen's power despite Syla saying that she can't protect him.
4. Against the HERO agents in the Battle of Diamonds, he didn't use any specific knowledge taken from memory, he just overwhelmed him with visages of various monsters.

Basically Memory doesn't have anything at all to do with these effects. Shen creates the equivalent of a horror movie. He doesn't need to know something specific about the audience. He creates a scene and uses his power to do some kind of psychic damage.

I don't disagree that a different power, other than Illusion, can explain Shen's illusions.
1. Memory can potentially change perception in a way that makes humans and humanoid monsters intistinguisable.
2. Authority can potentially force someone to think that humanoid monsters and humans are the same thing.
3. Light can potentially create illusions. After all in real life, what humans understand as illusions some times are tricks of light and odd interactions with color.
4. Dark can potentially create illusions, mimicking things (not sure how, but sensory deprivation is part of the portfolio, like Valravn's Black Night attack stopping sound).

The problem is the scope:
Memory affects a specific target's perception.
Authority affects a specific target's behavior.

Every example you give in relation to these traits has to follow these principles because this is what Jake and MC respectively, have shown us.

I'm not disputing the reason why you brought up Jake. You don't need the Authority:Imprint ability to match him to Demi, her passive is more than enough as it's literally the exact same effect. When MC fights Clover, he has to hold back because Demi's power forces him to not harm her. This pretty much proves the Authority component.

However I'm insisting that Jake's powers affect only the chosen Target. So using him as an example points to Authority NOT working like either Shen's illusions or Demi's object charm.

We need a power that
a) Affects an object
b) Everyone's perception changes in relation to that object.

You claim that your argument about Shen is supposed to eliminate speculation. But this can't be true. Since we don't have an obvious mechanism for either Authority or Memory that matches both the effect we perceive, and the narrator's description. We are forced into speculation.

You obviously have an issue with having to attribute Shen's powers to an Apostle that we know nothing of and I can accept this, but I still disagree with your analysis at a very basic level and your argument is heavy speculation on Demi's powers. I also think that you are trying to fit the data to your theory and not the theory to data, as I've noticed that you take a lot of freedoms with certain scenes, as myst0501 pointed out. We should be able to agree at what the scene depicts, but we don't. It may be my fault, it may be yours. I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible and quote the narrator.

The basis of your argument as I understand it is:
1. Demi can affect an object in relation to a target.
2. Shen can affect an object in relation to a target.
3. Demi has part of the Authority trait because reasons.
4. Demi's charm object ability is part of Authority. <---------- This is where I disagree 100%, Demi has a mixed trait with some Authority
5. Due to 1 and 2, Shen is also part Authority.

Jake is the ultimate authority (no pun intended) on how the Authority trait works. If someone's power doesn't follow the same principles, then it's probably something else. Just because Demi, who has a mixed trait, has a partly similar ability, it doesn't mean that all her abilities come from the same trait. It only means that her power has an Authority component.

As long as the narrator asserts that Shen affects the humans and not the Superhumans, then the effect can't possibly be matched to neither Jake's Authority abilites, nor MC's Memory abilities. It can only be matched to Demi's.

There exist instances where the narrator isn't sure. This isn't one of these cases. We have to take it for granded.

Sorry for repeating myself over and over, but I need to drive that point of my argument.
Past that, we can agree to disagree. No problem with that.

Great analysis. You suspect Demi has lieage of 10th, and very significant one, based on object interaction.
I also think that Demi is mixed, but inclusions are minor because everything aside from anchored attraction is in my opinion explained fully by Authority.

I suspect that this minor lineage is Light. Tiffany's light was described as refreshing, calming and magnetic. We also have Angelina, presumed 3rd + 8th who can make milk with universally attractive aroma. This makes me think that this is the key behind focus on visuals and attraction.