VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.996 Public] [WeirdWorld]

[sexoffended]

Why do you say that? Have we seen an example of the mc or someone else with memory powers doing this and straining themselves?

So far we haven't seen any example of memories being taken out completely on the fly as soon as they are made. We've seen Shen forcing his image into Elijah's perception, but judging by how Shen is capable of ordering people into dreams, his power must have Authority component. I suspect that taking out someone's memories with this speed, precision and completeness will be almost impossible for someone stronger than MC and absolutely impractical for targets weaker.

 

[harem.king]

This game has the most thought provoking discussing on the site, by far.
The worldbuilding is so good.
And there is just the right balance between being mysterious and giving you lore

 

[Marvoch]

My theory for 10th is Lie. Truth works by imposition of concepts and events within certain physical borders, Lie destructs/ereases things and events if they stray outside of a predetermined borders like a deal or vow. Basically it's an explanation for Shopkeep's and Charlie's power.

I understand your argument, Lie and Truth are indeed opposite concepts. However, consider also that we are talking about 12 aspects of one God. The others all make sense, but Lie? Is this apostle the lie of God? Would a god lie? In this light, even Illusion is a weak option. Probably the most sensible options would be Imagination and then Dream.

 

[Simpgor]

I understand your argument, Lie and Truth are indeed opposite concepts. However, consider also that we are talking about 12 aspects of one God. The others all make sense, but Lie? Is this apostle the lie of God? Would a god lie? In this light, even Illusion is a weak option. Probably the most sensible options would be Imagination and then Dream.

Would a god dream? Imagination is something I could see a god doing but at the same time runs up on "toon force" type powers really quickly.

 

[sexoffended]

I understand your argument, Lie and Truth are indeed opposite concepts. However, consider also that we are talking about 12 aspects of one God. The others all make sense, but Lie? Is this apostle the lie of God? Would a god lie? In this light, even Illusion is a weak option. Probably the most sensible options would be Imagination and then Dream.

God maybe wouldn't lie, but his creations definitely will. And God's Lie is what they meet.

10th handles what happens outside of God's Truth.

 

[Marvoch]

Would a god dream? Imagination is something I could see a god doing but at the same time runs up on "toon force" type powers really quickly.

Yeah, a God would dream of creation before creating. It's not an alien thought. Still, it's not that strong of an argument, but more so than deception, IMHO obv. With a pantheon of gods, I can see deception being part of a portfolio. But a single god? I'm not so sure.

God maybe wouldn't lie, but his creations definitely will. And God's Lie is what they meet.

10th handles what happens outside of God's Truth.

The creations of Gods sure lie a lot. But remember that each apostle represents an aspect of God (the strength, the will, the shape, the intuition, the age and the space of God). Lie would be the deception of God. Tho', maybe I am too attached to the Abrahamic monotheistic outlook of God, considering that we are talking about a single God, the shaper of the cosmos and beyond, so the connection comes naturally to me.

 

[sexoffended]

Yeah, a God would dream of creation before creating. It's not an alien thought. Still, it's not that strong of an argument, but more so than deception, IMHO obv. With a pantheon of gods, I can see deception being part of a portfolio. But a single god? I'm not so sure.


The creations of Gods sure lie a lot. But remember that each apostle represents an aspect of God (the strength, the will, the shape, the intuition, the age and the space of God). Lie would be the deception of God. Tho', maybe I am too attached to the Abrahamic monotheistic outlook of God, considering that we are talking about a single God, the shaper of the cosmos and beyond, so the connection comes naturally to me.

That way God's Destruction also sounds kinda icky.

What is interesting is that nobody even considered some entity of this level other than God. We know about Outer Twins, we know that Apostles are divided into complementary components of reality 1 to 6, known to be alive and well, and opposite pairs representing some action/counteraction and considered by some to be dead. Maybe next update will come and put everything and everyone in their place.

 

[Simpgor]

Yeah, a God would dream of creation before creating.

Uh why? They are a god they shouldn't need to "dream" of something shouldn't they just be able to "do"? I guess in a game/series focused on combat like this the idea that a god (or any entity) has to actively think about thier power (or dream) are almost always beaten by someone who does it "automatically" (like MC having to think about where to regen from changing to his spine is borderline unkillable and arguably as smart as he is )

I'll grant that none of those three jump out at me as a clear answer, but I could see lie even from a single God assuming there is anything "past" it (outer gods, the readers/players themselves/ WW himself)

 

[Gtdead]

Shen's power can be explained by strong Memory augmented with Authority. Ella's ritual consisted of making a connection from both points. Same happens to MC - he's being pushed into dream by power with Memory lineage and guided through the process by Syla who exists entirely within memoryscape. Also Shen's ability to manifest some of his illusions physically after 4 evolution is an additional argument for his power being a Memory mix.

My theory for 10th is Lie. Truth works by imposition of concepts and events within certain physical borders, Lie destructs/ereases things and events if they stray outside of a predetermined borders like a deal or vow. Basically it's an explanation for Shopkeep's and Charlie's power.

The Narrator says that the humans who looked like Eisheth were under Shen's power. It's quite hard to explain this effect with either Authority or Memory. He would need to affect Elijah or Kira in that case.

"Eisheth's inborn instincts kick in and she leaps away, gripping every human, now no longer under Shen's power, and lifting them into the air."

Also if it was Authority or Memory, wouldn't Shen be extremely strained by trying to affect 2 level 5s for so long? He is just a level 4.

I understand your argument, Lie and Truth are indeed opposite concepts. However, consider also that we are talking about 12 aspects of one God. The others all make sense, but Lie? Is this apostle the lie of God? Would a god lie? In this light, even Illusion is a weak option. Probably the most sensible options would be Imagination and then Dream.

One important thing to note, since a lot of us are going by the apostolic statements ("I'm Gods X"), Truth is the name of the Apostle.
So the statement would be "I'm Gods X, something something, the something Truth".
X could be reality, actualization or actuality, domain, etc.

The 10th Apostle could be God's imagination, possibility, innovation.

The reason I think Lie wouldn't work is because it feels like a colloquial term with a negative load. Illusion works better.

The important think to note here is that the terms have to be tied to a overarching concept. Truth and Illusion work greatly together to affect Perception.

Both True and False things affect our perception. As long as they feel real to us, then it doesn't matter if they actually are or not. It's how placebos work. It's how praise works. Basically a lot of things can be attributed to it.

The "feeling of home" can be an illusion for example. Perhaps at first, the particular house had the emotional load that made us feel like we are at home. With time, the things that made it this way may change so they aren't true anymore, but the feeling persists.

Doing things to forget your worries can be an illusion too. You had a great night with your friends out, you felt better, but reality hits your hard the next day. It wasn't necessarily the fact that you drank or had a stimulating conversation that made your happy. It was that for a while, your forgot your troubles. You forgot reality.

 

[Marvoch]

Uh why? They are a god they shouldn't need to "dream" of something shouldn't they just be able to "do"? I guess in a game/series focused on combat like this the idea that a god (or any entity) has to actively think about thier power (or dream) are almost always beaten by someone who does it "automatically" (like MC having to think about where to regen from changing to his spine is borderline unkillable and arguably as smart as he is )

I'll grant that none of those three jump out at me as a clear answer, but I could see lie even from a single God assuming there is anything "past" it (outer gods, the readers/players themselves/ WW himself)

Please, be real. MC's spine is much smarter than he is. If only he would let it do its work in peace.

Back on a serious note, I understand your point of view. I'm not so convinced, but no thesis holds at 100%. We will just have to wait these 30 days until the next update, hoping that WW will show us the connections to the remaining six.

 

[sexoffended]

The Narrator says that the humans who looked like Eisheth were under Shen's power. It's quite hard to explain this effect with either Authority or Memory. He would need to affect Elijah or Kira in that case.

"Eisheth's inborn instincts kick in and she leaps away, gripping every human, now no longer under Shen's power, and lifting them into the air."

Also if it was Authority or Memory, wouldn't Shen be extremely strained by trying to affect 2 level 5s for so long? He is just a level 4.



One important thing to note, since a lot of us are going by the apostolic statements ("I'm Gods X"), Truth is the name of the Apostle.
So the statement would be "I'm Gods X, something something, the something Truth".
X could be reality, actualization or actuality, domain, etc.

The 10th Apostle could be God's imagination, possibility, innovation.

The reason I think Lie wouldn't work is because it feels like a colloquial term with a negative load. Illusion works better.

The important think to note here is that the terms have to be tied to a overarching concept. Truth and Illusion work greatly together to affect Perception.

Both True and False things affect our perception. As long as they feel real to us, then it doesn't matter if they actually are or not. It's how placebos work. It's how praise works. Basically a lot of things can be attributed to it.

The "feeling of home" can be an illusion for example. Perhaps at first, the particular house had the emotional load that made us feel like we are at home. With time, the things that made it this way may change so they aren't true anymore, but the feeling persists.

Doing things to forget your worries can be an illusion too. You had a great night with your friends out, you felt better, but reality hits your hard the next day. It wasn't necessarily the fact that you drank or had a stimulating conversation that made your happy. It was that for a while, your forgot your troubles. You forgot reality.

Memory to project Eisheth's visage, Authority to make onlookers believe in it. Shen is capable of projecting himself into lvl5's head while being pretty far away. It's also unknown how he benefit from limits lifted by 4th evolution. Using other people as connection point with memory is possible.

 

[Marvoch]

Memory to project Eisheth's visage, Authority to make onlookers believe in it. Shen is capable of projecting himself into lvl5's head while being pretty far away. It's also unknown how he benefit from limits lifted by 4th evolution. Using other people as connection point with memory is possible.

In my opinion, Gtdead is right. It is much more likely that Shen influenced the monsters and humans with his power than Elijah and his companion. This is also because the transformation happens while Elijah is not looking at the subject and it is the way he discovers that he is being deceived. If the power were affecting Elijah's perception directly, there would not be this vulnerability.

And this without taking into account the logistics of influencing two lvl5 at the same time.

 

[sexoffended]

In my opinion, Gtdead is right. It is much more likely that Shen influenced the monsters and humans with his power than Elijah and his companion. This is also because the transformation happens while Elijah is not looking at the subject and it is the way he discovers that he is being deceived. If the power were affecting Elijah's perception directly, there would not be this vulnerability.

And this without taking into account the logistics of influencing two lvl5 at the same time.

Transformation happens outside of Elijah's view because Shen is highly skilled at using his power. Illusions exist in Elijah's perception because how else Shen can be present as an illusion communicating with him otherwise. Also Shen having memory lineage power makes it easier to choose what to show to a certain person. I don't think SIN has that level of intel on HERO's high-ups.

 

[TheShelly]

Transformation happens outside of Elijah's view because Shen is highly skilled at using his power. Illusions exist in Elijah's perception because how else Shen can be present as an illusion communicating with him otherwise. Also Shen having memory lineage power makes it easier to choose what to show to a certain person. I don't think SIN has that level of intel on HERO's high-ups.

Man, the coping is insane. I very highly doubt that a single still relatively fresh lvl 4 superhuman could have enough skill and power to consistently fool two lvl 5s.

 

[sexoffended]

Man, the coping is insane. I very highly doubt that a single still relatively fresh lvl 4 superhuman could have enough skill and power to consistently fool two lvl 5s.

We had lvl2 Jake giving indirect order to lvl5 Alexis.

Shen's power can be explained in it's entirety by already existing things. There's no need to dedicate an entire fundamental aspect of reality to making bad dreams.

 

[myst0501]

So far we haven't seen any example of memories being taken out completely on the fly as soon as they are made. We've seen Shen forcing his image into Elijah's perception, but judging by how Shen is capable of ordering people into dreams, his power must have Authority component. I suspect that taking out someone's memories with this speed, precision and completeness will be almost impossible for someone stronger than MC and absolutely impractical for targets weaker.

Memory to project Eisheth's visage, Authority to make onlookers believe in it. Shen is capable of projecting himself into lvl5's head while being pretty far away. It's also unknown how he benefit from limits lifted by 4th evolution. Using other people as connection point with memory is possible.

These two statements seem contradictory to me.

Assuming, as you suppose, Shen's power has an authority component to it, why would that then allow him to use memory powers to alter the perceptions of two lvl 5 superhumans for a prolonged time?

 

[sexoffended]

These two statements seem contradictory to me.

Assuming, as you suppose, Shen's power has an authority component to it, why would that then allow him to use memory powers to alter the perceptions of two lvl 5 superhumans for a prolonged time?

You mishmashed my response about pure Memory trait. It alone can't do everything necessary to make perception alterations as complete. No contradiction.

Authority is known to be able to be used on much stronger targets without entering into internal power clash. Why wouldn't it? Especially if you forget that Shen's main power is forcing dreams, and illusions are something secondary.

 

[Gtdead]

You mishmashed my response about pure Memory trait. It alone can't do everything necessary to make perception alterations as complete. No contradiction.

1. Authority is known to be able to be used on much stronger targets without entering into internal power clash. Why wouldn't it? 2. Especially if you forget that Shen's main power is forcing dreams, and illusions are something secondary.

1.
I don't think this applies to Shen.
The example we have is Jake saying something that Alexis wouldn't care about. Jake could not ask Alexis for the base location and it's not like allowing Jake in a particular room would be terrible, at least not for her.

Once Alexis started viewing Jake as a hostile, all bets were off.
Elijah views Shen as a hostile from the get go, but there is no power contest. The contexts do not match and the narrator says that Shen's power affects the humans, not the Superhumans.

2.
It's quite unlikely for the complex power to be the primary and the simple power to be the secondary. This doesn't really happen.

Jake first learned how to imbue his words with his power, and then how to give specific commands.
MC first learned basic memory reading and then how to consume memories.
MC first learned how to stretch his hands and then how to make tentacles.
Alice first manifested her fist orbs and then her graviton bomb.
Deryl first knew how to make objects and then learned how to make clones and chimera.
Danica first learned to throw light crosses and then she learned how to do the X marks the spot.

The simplest power is almost always the first one. (I'm talking about active ones, because the passive ones always manifest first)
Thinking that the convoluted ability with no exact rules manifested first, compared to just changing the appearence of an object, is a losing bet.

There is no precedent where Memory powers affect an object in relation to a target as MC can't do anything like that.
There is no precedent where Authority powers affect an object in relation to a target as Jake can't do anything like that.

The only one who can do something like that is Demi and that's why everyone thinks she will end up being the Dream for the 10th, even if she has an obvious authority component in her passive power, forcing MC to stay his hand against Clove.

 

[sexoffended]

1.
I don't think this applies to Shen.
The example we have is Jake saying something that Alexis wouldn't care about. Jake could not ask Alexis for the base location and it's not like allowing Jake in a particular room would be terrible, at least not for her.

Once Alexis started viewing Jake as a hostile, all bets were off.
Elijah views Shen as a hostile from the get go, but there is no power contest. The contexts do not match and the narrator says that Shen's power affects the humans, not the Superhumans.

2.
It's quite unlikely for the complex power to be the primary and the simple power to be the secondary. This doesn't really happen.

Jake first learned how to imbue his words with his power, and then how to give specific commands.
MC first learned basic memory reading and then how to consume memories.
MC first learned how to stretch his hands and then how to make tentacles.
Alice first manifested her fist orbs and then her graviton bomb.
Deryl first knew how to make objects and then learned how to make clones and chimera.
Danica first learned to throw light crosses and then she learned how to do the X marks the spot.

The simplest power is almost always the first one. (I'm talking about active ones, because the passive ones always manifest first)
Thinking that the convoluted ability with no exact rules manifested first, compared to just changing the appearence of an object, is a losing bet.

There is no precedent where Memory powers affect an object in relation to a target as MC can't do anything like that.
There is no precedent where Authority powers affect an object in relation to a target as Jake can't do anything like that.

The only one who can do something like that is Demi and that's why everyone thinks she will end up being the Dream for the 10th, even if she has an obvious authority component in her passive power, forcing MC to stay his hand against Clove.

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

2. Dream is primary in utility, not technique. Jake has an array of special attacks, and yet against Alexis he uses words. Same stuff here.

We have an example of HERO's interrogator being able to use Memory to connect to others visually. Demi is unable to control perception of others in any meaningful way. Her power can be better explained by very real psychological phenomenon (

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). She exercises power of desire onto an inanimate object as a medium, entirety within Authority's portfolio with Jake's Imprint and everything else Demi did, and then someone affected by it makes up reason to approach said object, which manifests itself as a hallucination.

 

[myst0501]

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

This isn't quite true. Shen continues to taunt Elijah for a while after via an illusionary double. Elijah, at this point, is well aware that what he is seeing is an illusion, yet he still sees it.