Ren'Py Abandoned The DeLuca Family [Season 1] [HopesGaming]

[whichone]

But even heterosexual or homosexual "married" (catch all here for any permanent monogamous relationship) find other people attractive.

No-one said they did not?
I already addressed this.
Being attracted to somone has nothing to do with what we're talking about. It only matters if they act on that attraction and perform an infidelity.

And coming back to the usual point I do not see how Antonio not only finding women other than Isabella attractive but also men is preventing their marriage to be successful. If he can resist temptation from girls, he should also be able to resist temptation from boys. That does not mean that he will resist - as possibly shown by his visits to a certain table - but I see no reason why he couldn't.

What I specifically said, was that Antonio is fucking men, so their wedding is not going to be fixed by them "going off into the sunset".
I said that you cannot fix what is wrong, because he is bisexual (and already proven to not be monogamous).
He's always going to be into men.
He's already proven himself to not stay faitfhul.
There is no fixing that.
Trust does not get fixed, once broken & he's never going to be heterosexual.

It's a bit like were talking past each other. They do not change their sexuality at all, that I think we all can agree on.

That is specifically what you replied to and asked if it was "really the case?", when I first said it.
So you did not initially seem to agree, but now you do?

 

[Cartageno]

No-one said they did not?
I already adressed this.
It has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

See, that is why I said "we seem to be talking past each other". Apparently both of us agree on all the stuff - but I feel (and certainly you too) that the essence of what I am trying to say is going into the void. So I am introducing this to explain why I don't see a difference between heterosexual or homosexual on the one side, bisexual on the other. Because I have not seen (or understood) any difference you pointed out except for the defining part "like both genders" and I don't see how "potentially likes partners other than their spouse of a different gender than their spouse" (italics are the difference to homo or hetero people) makes a difference here.

The sentences of your OP I did not understand was

I can't see their marriage getting fixed. He's into men. Bi/gay is irrelevant.

I think we both agree that he is bi and just understood the third sentence to refer to earlier discussions about whether he is bi or secretly gay does not change the issue at hand. But given he is bi, he is also into women. So his wife is not out of his "target zone". And I don't get how "he is (also) into men" changes anything from the more general phrasing of "he is (also) into other people than his wife".

What I specifically said, was that Antonio is fucking men, so their wedding is not going to be fixed by them "going off into the sunset".
I said that you cannot fix what is wrong, because he is bisexual and already proven to not be monogamous.
He's always going to be into men.
He's already proven himself to not stay faitfhul.
There is no fixing that.

I personally agree that there is no fixing a relationship where one party cheated, although many people think otherwise. But I do think that is the only explanation needed.

If I slightly adjusted this to

What I specifically said, was that Antonio is fucking other women, so their wedding is not going to be fixed by them "going off into the sunset".
I said that you cannot fix what is wrong, because he is bisexual and already proven to not be monogamous.
He's always going to be into other women.
He's already proven himself to not stay faitfhul.
There is no fixing that.

what would be the difference? You say

He's never going to be heterosexual & trust does not get fixed, once broken.

which to me seems to imply than monogamous relationships with non heterosexuals (or I guess non homosexuals) will not work, and I still fail to see why.

 

[whichone]

See, that is why I said "we seem to be talking past each other". Apparently both of us agree on all the stuff - but I feel (and certainly you too) that the essence of what I am trying to say is going into the void. So I am introducing this to explain why I don't see a difference between heterosexual or homosexual on the one side, bisexual on the other. Because I have not seen (or understood) any difference you pointed out except for the defining part "like both genders" and I don't see how "potentially likes partners other than their spouse of a different gender than their spouse" (italics are the difference to homo or hetero people) makes a difference here.

There is no difference.
Bi, homo, hetero. It doesn't matter a jot.
The person in the relationship will still find other members of their preferred sex, or sexes, attractive.
It only matters if they act upon that.

I already agreed with your point, that bi people are unquestionably going to be exposed to more opportunity for infidelity, as they have a pool twice the size.

The sentences of your OP I did not understand was

Antonio is bi. He will always be bi. He will also always be someone who cheated/cheats on his wife.
Hence there is no fixing the 2 issues at the root of the problems with their relationship.
Hence their relationship cannot be fixed.

If I slightly adjusted this to

what would be the difference? You say

The obvious difference is that he's heterosexual in your statement.
The end result is no different.
He's still attracted to other people and he's still unfaithful.
Regardless of his sexuality.

which to me seems to imply than monogamous relationships with non heterosexuals (or I guess non homosexuals) will not work, and I still fail to see why.

I don't understand how what I said causes you to infer that?
A monogamous relationship can work for a bi person, of course it can!

Him being bisexual simply means that he will always find both sexes attractive.
Him being unfaithful means he's acted on those attractions already.
An unfaithful relationship, with any person is not getting fixed.
You can patch it up and continue, but it's never going to be a true trusting, loving relationship.

 

[Cartageno]

I don't understand how what I said causes you to infer that?

Because it seemed to me that you were specifically referring to the men (as opposed to the women, who are the same gender as the wife) he likes being the problem. If you weren't inferring that then we are in agreement and had a failure to communicate. Two pages worth of it.

 

[whichone]

Because it seemed to me that you were specifically referring to the men (as opposed to the women, who are the same gender as the wife) he likes being the problem. If you weren't inferring that then we are in agreement and had a failure to communicate. Two pages worth of it.

I was.
Because the men are the only example of his infidelity that we're aware of.
He already has a woman. The missing piece, for his bisexual nature, is a man.
Being who he is, he could probably have fucked most of the women in Lucania if he wanted to.
Don't think we've ever heard tale of his infidelity with females, have we?
It's certainly not been presented as a contributory cause for his relationship with Isabel being on the rocks.
The infidelity of him sleeping with other men, specifically has been.
Which is why I specifically referred to the men.

 

[Cartageno]

I was.
Because the men are the only example of his infidelity that we're aware of.
He already has a woman. The missing piece for his bisexual nature, is a man.
Being who he is, he could probably have fucked most of the women in Lucania if he wanted to.
Don't think we've ever heard tale of his infidelity with females, have we?
It's certainly not been presented as a contributory cause for his relationship with Isabel being on the rocks.
The infidelity of him sleeping with other men, specifically has been.

Okay, but referring specifically to Antonio and what he did and probably didn't do. It sounded more general to me.

 

[whichone]

Okay, but referring specifically to Antonio and what he did and probably didn't do. It sounded more general to me.

My post, which you originally replied to, stated the following:

I can't see their marriage getting fixed. He's into men. Bi/gay is irrelevant.
They can move past the hurt of the lost child, the pain lessens with time. But you can't move past him being sexually attracted to men. No amount of time is going to lessen his sexuality.

Nothing in that is general. It is all completely specific to him and his relationship.
Him being sexually attracted to men, is what has caused the known infidelities.
He will always be sexually attracted to men (& women, if bi), so the relationship being fixed, is something I cannot see.

 

[Cartageno]

My post, which you originally replied to, stated the following:

Nothing in that is general. It is all completely specific to him and his relationship.
Him being sexually attracted to men, is what has caused the known infidelities.
He will always be sexually attracted to men, so the relationship being fixed, is something I cannot see.

With the centre sentence I disagree - and that may or may not have been the source of the misunderstanding. He chose men because he is attracted to them, but the same could have happened if he were attracted to women and met them "on the side". So him being attracted to men to me isn't the central factor of why he cheated, only of how he did.

 

[whichone]

With the centre sentence I disagree - and that may or may not have been the source of the misunderstanding. He chose men because he is attracted to them, but the same could have happened if he were attracted to women and met them "on the side". So him being attracted to men to me isn't the central factor of why he cheated, only of how he did.

I agree, it's not why.
But, regardless of how or why, men are still the only known example of his cheating & the only sex that's referred to in relation to his relationship being on the rocks.
Which is why I referred to men. I'm not excluding women, I'm just specifically referring to the information the game has provided.

 

[Cartageno]

I agree, it's not why.
But, regardless of how or why, men are still the only known example of his cheating & the only sex that's referred to in relation to his relationship being on the rocks.
Which is why I referred to them. I'm not excluding women, I'm just specifically referring to the information the game has provided.

Yes, so after two pages we both know what the other meant and that we never really differed in the beginning.

Now back to the game: ain't Riley and Amber just the cutest? With that, I should have balanced mentioning Luna and Gracie in the Mystwood Manor thread

 

[HornyyPussy]

 

[whichone]

Yes, so after two pages we both know what the other meant and that we never really differed in the beginning.

Now back to the game: ain't Riley and Amber just the cutest? With that, I should have balanced mentioning Luna and Gracie in the Mystwood Manor thread

I didn't challenge anything you said.
This whole conversation only took place because you mistook what I said, explicitly about Antonio & his specific situation, to be a generalisation, so asked me if what I'd said was correct.
After some explanation & clarification, you now understand & agree that it was.
All is good.
Disregarding the audacity of the idiot who interjected & tried to tell me what my own point is.

I wouldn't worry about how many pages/how long it took us to reach a conclusion, it's a forum, conversation's the whole point.
At least this conversation was on-topic!

Ha ha ha, that really made me laugh yesterday in Mystwood! I even ended up covering for you.

 

[Dragon59]

I am not in a place to disagree since the only bi person (that I know of) has a failed marriage, so maybe somebody who is bi may want to chime in, because on the one hand, yes, sex with only one gender is somewhat limited, but on the other hand heteros also have a lot of temptations running around. They may also still desire some people and have to restrain themselves. So it may depend on how important "variance in sex" is for you, or if you're just not closing down while looking for "the one".

The only bi men I know are also polyamorous, so a different situation.

 

[Joey the mangaka]

Best ending for Antonio it's getting killed saving mc

 

[whichone]

Best ending for Antonio it's getting killed saving mc

Yeah, something that lets him go out with honour and dignity, but clears the path for us!

 

[LuciferPrometheus]

My theory. Uncle knows everything about what's going on with Antonio. He doesn't trust Antonio anyway because how hot headed and impulsive he is. On top of that if it were to come out that the next in line isn't a straight man, it would probably be very problematic for the family. That's why he's training Gracie. And once he thinks Gracie is ready to take over, he'll get rid of Antonio so that Gracie is next in line because Luna wouldn't want to be the next in line anyway.

 

[JJJ84]

My theory. Uncle knows everything about what's going on with Antonio. He doesn't trust Antonio anyway because how hot headed and impulsive he is. On top of that if it were to come out that the next in line isn't a straight man, it would probably be very problematic for the family. That's why he's training Gracie. And once he thinks Gracie is ready to take over, he'll get rid of Antonio so that Gracie is next in line because Luna wouldn't want to be the next in line anyway.

The problem I have with that theory is, Cordia has been, and is outright against Gracie getting involved (in the Family business).
Whenever Wilfred tries to raise even a point that "Gracie is intelligent and could be a valuable asset to the Family" etc she shuts him down (that in one case in game results in exasperation from Wilfred).

I mean yes, MC will help Gracie to convince Cordia so Gracie can now work for the Family in the upcoming update, but Wilfred has been teaching Gracie for a long time before even MC arrived at DeLucas' gates in the game's beginning.
So I just find it difficult to believe Wilfred would be able to forsee all that and plan way ahead of time. Sure, he would know all this time about Antonio's short temper and probably even about him not being straight (bi/gay), but that I don't think that means it's a sure thing for Gracie to be in next in line, especially considering how strong Cordia feels about the matter.

It's a bit different now with MC in the mix, but to me it feels more like he's been training Gracie with a little bit of hope that maybe, just maybe somewhere along the line Cordia may let her daughter work for the Family in some capacity. But what he probably didn't account for is how MC being there had effect on Gracie (and rest of the Family for that matter).
Probably he's keeping on eye on MC's interactions with the girls with the mindset "This should be interesting. Let's see how this turns out."


Also, if I was an actual soldier in DeLucas, I think neither Luna nor Gracie should be the next head of the Family, heh.
Sure, Luna on the outward appearance looks like the more unstable one due to how brash she might get (especially when she gets in the fights) so that's likely a bad choice, but I feel Gracie is also pretty unstable in her own way (her completely nonchalant way of reacting to Trino's death, and almost Jekyll & Hyde like reaction to MC after Blizzard Princess event [despite her saying it's a joke]).

Antonio's short temper will cause him problems should he become Don, but I don't think the girls are the right candidates to be a Donna either, with each of them having their own flaws (regarding their capacity as a Don/Donna).

Family's heir in my opinion needs someone who is a bit more level headed; MC could be a good fit if he stopped being a wimp/coward (whichever term that applies to his current state ) and be fully committed to the Family.

 

[whichone]

The problem I have with that theory is, Cordia has been, and is outright against Gracie getting involved (in the Family business).
Whenever Wilfred tries to raise even a point that "Gracie is intelligent and could be a valuable asset to the Family" etc she shuts him down (that in one case in game results in exasperation from Wilfred).

To be fair, Cordia was oblivious to Gracie's participation in the Straffan mission. I believe Wilfred was, too.
Would she really be able to stop Gracie sneaking onto another mission, in the future? Especially given how successful she was...
I mean, short of locking her in her room and bolting all exits, she's gonna show up!

Agree with your point.
None of them are stable.
Luna's a sociopath.
Gracie's a psychopath.

 

[JJJ84]

To be fair, Cordia was oblivious to Gracie's participation in the Straffan mission. I believe Wilfred was, too.
Would she really be able to stop Gracie sneaking onto another mission, in the future? Especially given how successful she was...

I think Lucifer's point is that Wilfred could be planning to make Gracie the next heir to be the Donna after somehow pushing Antonio out.
I just find that unlikely to be the case (as stated in the previous post). There just seems to be too many wheels in motion that not even Wilfred can change, and it seems he's acting more of an observer rather than an manipulator (at least regarding the girls, and Antonio's case).

But yes, you're right that both Cordia and Wilfred were oblivious to Gracie sneaking onto the Straffan mission.

Regarding whether can they stop Gracie sneaking onto another mission, well while it's not referred to officially in the game, Hopes said that "due to Gracie snaeking off on Straffan mission, Cordia kept Gracie under watchful eye" so that she does not sneak off again on Ombra mission and that mission is kept top secret.
Game only gives the official account from Luna's perspective (given a different mission so she can be distracted away from the MC's mission), but it's interesting nonetheless.

So while Cordia wouldn't be able to keep eye on Gracie like 24/7, if Gracie's event of convincing Cordia is not happening next, who knows. Perhaps some instances Cordia might have stopped her daughter sneaking off, and in some cases, Gracie might have snuck off successfully (like a parent grounding a rebellious teenager, and the teenager in some cases sneaks out at night to party lol)

 

[whichone]

I think Lucifer's point is that Wilfred could be planning to make Gracie the next heir to be the Donna after somehow pushing Antonio out.
I just find that unlikely to be the case (as stated in the previous post). There just seems to be too many wheels in motion that not even Wilfred can change, and it seems he's acting more of an observer rather than an manipulator (at least regarding the girls, and Antonio's case).

But yes, you're right that both Cordia and Wilfred were oblivious to Gracie sneaking onto the Straffan mission.

Regarding whether can they stop Gracie sneaking onto another mission, well while it's not referred to officially in the game, Hopes said that "due to Gracie snaeking off on Straffan mission, Cordia kept Gracie under watchful eye" so that she does not sneak off again on Ombra mission and that mission is kept top secret.
Game only gives the official account from Luna's perspective (given a different mission so she can be distracted away from the MC's mission), but it's interesting nonetheless.

So while Cordia wouldn't be able to keep eye on Gracie like 24/7, if Gracie's event of convincing Cordia is not happening next, who knows. Perhaps some instances Cordia might have stopped her daughter sneaking off, and in some cases, Gracie might have snuck off successfully (like a parent grounding a rebellious teenager, and the teenager in some cases sneaks out at night to party lol)

Yeah, with Wilfred & Gracie, he's grooming her, but I do not think it's specifically for the top position, either.
He just wants her as an asset, because he knows how valuable she'd be to Family business. Also because she's his brightest protege.
I don't think he wants a change of don/donna, or the successor to that position.
If Antonio takes it, Wilfred would still want Gracie to be an asset to the business.

lol I'm sure they could stop her, but I have a feeling it would require relatively exreme measures, such as phyiscally locking & blocking all exits.
She's smart enough to figure a way out of most things.