Ren'Py Abandoned The DeLuca Family [Season 1] [HopesGaming]

[Rovenant]

I think what really draws me into the Family in general are that they are not the perfect Family, comprised of perfect characters.

As stated by Wilfred, each member of the Family has crucial flaw/s:

- Luna: obviously suffering from the scars of her trauma by Mysterious 6 from when she was a child
- Gracie: something happened to her in "the woods" when she was young, and she severely lack socialization and human interaction
- Isabel: trouble in paradise between her and Antonio, and she desires for someone who loves her back (and player choice, whether Netori path is pursued or not)
- Cordia: despite her appearance as the perfect Donna, as Wilfred states, she suffers from intense guilt from losing her husband as well as having Luna suffer by Mysterious 6 (hence rift between her and Luna's relationship)

- Antonio: drifted apart from Isabel after she loses the baby, and has a very short temper

And yes, even Wilfred, despite him most likely denying it always has shown little glimpses of having flaws here and there.


I like flawed characters in my stories (and how these characters eventually overcome their flaws), so yeah.
Part of why I love the DeLuca universe so much.

So far its the story about this family, and the MC interacting with them. And yeah, i totally agree with you, the best thing is the crazy world, the superhuman abilities, but they fail in trivial stuff. And the MC being the opposite (he has flaws but at least know some of the world).
I remember the first time i was here, thinking if this game was worth downloading or not, and in comment i saw the dev saying that he didnt wanted just a game with sex and thats all, he wanted to develop the characters with a rational pace. And after a lot of playing i still remember the time when Luna tells you her story and the amazing impact because the dev took the time to develop characters.
Every flaw its just an amazing adition to this game like you say, because it leaves space to the moment when they overcome some of them.

 

[whichone]

Every flaw its just an amazing adition to this game like you say, because it leaves space to the moment when they overcome some of them.

It's an essential element of the literary monomyth, The Hero's Journey.
All the best heroes are capable of making mistakes, but they learn from them and develop into better versions of themselves.
It makes them relatable.

Without flaws to overcome & the character development/evolution which that brings, the hero is static.
It's why the OG Star Wars was great (the hero had flaws and had to learn his lessons the hard way - arrogance & impatience cost him his hand - to come back stronger & defeat the evil) and Disney Star Wars sucked donkey balls (the heroine had no flaws and nothing ever presented a difficulty, so the character is already ultimate OP and cannot get any better from there, no room to grow).

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

The only thing which matters, for establishing morality, is his intent.
The justification/excuse that he is using the cams to find out information goes out the window as soon as he starts making Gracie watch porn, so he can watch her masturbate.
MC has no morally superior stance on that.

I strongly disagree. In the immortal words of Fred Durst...one of the most moral men of all time, according to some...MC did it for the nookie.

Which really justifies damn near anything. That's a scientific fact and you can take that to the bank.

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

As a novice writer, I didn't expect there to be so many sections in the story where I wanted a character to personally act (most of the time the mc!), but was forced to write in another due to the personality and background of the character I already have established.
I always thought that since I was the creator I could mold the story to fit, which is certainly true to a certain degree, but more than not you have to force yourself into writing based on what the character thinks and acts rather than how you yourself would. An interesting part of story writing I didn't expect before I began this.

Anyways, I've butted in your guy's talk too much already! Carry on, heh.

The mere fact that you can conceptualize such a simple yet profound concept instantly makes you...as a "novice"...a better writer than the entire "professional" writing staff working on all of Kurtzman's Star Trek and pretty much the entire CW network.

Your characters must always be true to themselves first and foremost: Not true to what anyone else....even their creator...wants them to be.

There's probably a pretty profound theological point to be made there, too. But i'd rather go watch porn instead.

 

[Thrill'n Flares]

This is the only part of your post I strongly disagree with.(And whoever else you were agreeing with)

It's easy to forget one critical thing here: The MC is the Deluca's prisoner.

Sure, the cage they keep him in is big and beautifully gilded. His jailors are kooky and funny and sexy. But the fact remains he is caged, and they are his jailors. He has been forced into a position where he needed to murder a man and that experience was deeply traumatic for him. He's staunchly against ever repeating it.

So much so that even during the Ombra raid when he was fighting for his own life and the life of an innocent girl he was still relieved to realize that he did not kill the man who had been trying to kill him. And given what he know about how calculating the MC is, it's safe to assume that his whole improvised plan for that fight was INTENDED to take down his target in a way that was as minimally likely as possible to actually kill him. Imagine how much more easily he might have turned the tables on that scenario if he'd been fully willing to seek a lethal solution. Instead he increased the risk to himself, the girl, and the mission trying to find the least lethal path to victory. Kinda like Batman. lol. Even though it's stupid that Batman won't kill, you can respect how much more effort, struggle, and skill it demands to fight while trying to avoid lethality as much as possible.

In no way, shape, or form is the MC wrong for trying to get knowledge and leverage on the people who have forced him into a dark, dangerous, violent lifestyle that he has repeatedly made clear he wants no part of.

It's easy to forget these facts. I forget too sometimes. I mean at this point I think the MC's continued efforts to free himself are a case of the dog chasing the car. He wouldn't know what to do with it if he actually caught it. When he started he genuinely and fully wanted out but now he's so conflicted that he's doing it because he doesn't know what else to do. Maybe he just wants the choice at this point, even though we all know he's already chosen. He's under the Deluca spell now. Stockholm syndrome can be funny that way. lol.

But however much we may all come to like the Delucas they have forced the MC into some horrible situations. And they won't even tell him why. So yeah...he is completely in the right to spy on them and try to get back at least the illusion of control over his own life.

A prisoner? In a way yes. He does not have a choice that is true, but think about the following: He is in a mansion with a big room with a bathroom connected to it. he surrounded with beautiful women. If that is a prison then tell me what i gotta do to get into that prison.


I hate to burst your bubble this second time, but he is in the wrong. Did Gracie, Luna or Isabel have a hand in him being there? Are they keeping it secret why he is there? So yeah MC is in the wrong for invading their privacy in THEIR BEDROOMS. WHERE THEY CHANGE THEIR CLOTHES.

 

[Thrill'n Flares]

I agree with the principle, but don't think it applies to that situation.
There was no moral option to choose.
It was either cam, or audio. No option to not place any.
Either choice, you're still spying on them.

Yes, there needs to be consequence for the MC's action, if it's discovered, but the consequence is the same, whichever decision the player takes. Because the transgression is still the same.
Basically, it amounts to Hobson's choice.

Not the same. One you can see them naked or in underwear or various ways of undress. While hearing what they say. The other you just hear what they say. One is just a violaton of women's privacy the other is a major violation of privacy and can be categorized as creepy. So technically the consequence should not be the same, but if there is a consequence then it will probably be the same either way.

 

[JJJ84]

A prisoner? In a way yes. He does not have a choice that is true, but think about the following: He is in a mansion with a big room with a bathroom connected to it. he surrounded with beautiful women. If that is a prison then tell me what i gotta do to get into that prison.
View attachment 1701210

I hate to burst your bubble this second time, but he is in the wrong. Did Gracie, Luna or Isabel have a hand in him being there? Are they keeping it secret why he is there? So yeah MC is in the wrong for invading their privacy in THEIR BEDROOMS. WHERE THEY CHANGE THEIR CLOTHES.

And it's not just regarding the girls' bedrooms either.

The fact that he also planted the camera in the Donna's office is a big No-No.
That office is the place where Cordia, Wilfred, (and sometimes Antonio) discuss matters of the Family behind closed doors.

Even if MC hadn't planted the camera in the girls rooms but just planted it in Donna's (Cordia's) office, he'd still be doing something that the Family wouldn't consider acceptable (why would they be? He's basically listening in on the Family meetings that only specified members are allowed to partake).

As I said in my previous reply, the excuse of "I needed information regarding my contract" has been used once already.
Once he has been forgiven, but getting caught twice?

lol if the person who planted the cameras was someone who was under Contract like MC but didn't have MC's level of importance to the Family, I'd imagine that person would be put to slept and never be woken up (like MC states in Cordia office event).

 

[Thrill'n Flares]

One thing I think it is interesting about the MC is because he is not a 'true-believer' on how the mafia 'lifestyle' works on the surface. On a example, his attitude is the opposite from Trino - who's acts like a stupid fanatic minion (even it was just a ploy to lure the Delucas about his treason) - and several others inside the family. It is not just about him being on a forced contract, but he seems to be seriously annoyed and untrustful about his own situation.
It is just too easy to fall on a cliché in a mafia story when the MC's is or become a badass jerk from the beggining or worst, from anywhere on the story, like he wakes up one morning to be the ultimate alpha male who kicks everybody's asses.
On that matter, I saw some guys complaining about the MC on this thread, claiming him as a 'beta male' because MC seems to be too much 'weak', 'coward' or else. I think not. He is far more like a civilian who's forced to join an army between veteran skilled soldiers and the development of the character mostly fits that criteria, even if some of the players did not like it. Even on a fictional scenario, I think it is not any coherent a MC who was only a civilian, from nothing or nowhere, be stronger or way better than most of the harcore NPCs who's lived from years on that enviroment.
Another thing that makes the dev gain several points is even when the MC acts 'tough', like the Ombra mission, there is a background story that explains 'why' or 'how' his actions resulted on that outcome. It is not just from nowhere. Like a 'outsider', the MC is disdained from the very beggining even from the lowest ranks of the Delucas and he did not care about it, otherwise, he embraces being underestimated. It is not the way of the most of male MCs on several AVNs around and I think is one of the most interesting is his attitude towards the others and the situations around the story. And of course, his grumpyness! Just because I'm grumpy as hell!
Keep it up, Hopes.

I agree he is not a beta male. He is not an Alpha Male either. He is just to lazy. So idiots misunderstand laziness for beta male. I guess you could say he is the Alpha Geek Male. Cause he can out think just about anyone. Its just, like i said he is)to lazy. That has to do with the fact that he likes to underestimated. He does have an Ego like an Alpha male though. I say that, but its more that he himself is a sociopath. It shows through him corrupting Luna, Gracie and Isabel.

 

[Thrill'n Flares]

And it's not just regarding the girls' bedrooms either.

The fact that he also planted the camera in the Donna's office is a big No-No.
That office is the place where Cordia, Wilfred, (and sometimes Antonio) discuss matters of the Family behind closed doors.

Even if MC hadn't planted the camera in the girls rooms but just planted it in Donna's (Cordia's) office, he'd still be doing something that the Family wouldn't consider acceptable (why would they be? He's basically listening in on the Family meetings that only specified members are allowed to partake).

As I said in my previous reply, the excuse of "I needed information regarding my contract" has been used once already.
Once he has been forgiven, but getting caught twice?

lol if the person who planted the cameras was someone who was under Contract like MC but didn't have MC's level of importance to the Family, I'd imagine that person would be put to slept and never be woken up (like MC states in Cordia office event).

Im rationalizing the the fact that he was never given a choice and told (in no certain terms) to trust them, people he does not even know. He wanted out so he need more information. There was no other way for him even have a possibility of finding out. But yeah they will see event hat as being wrong. It all about your viewpoint.

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

I hate to burst your bubble this second time, but he is in the wrong. Did Gracie, Luna or Isabel have a hand in him being there? Are they keeping it secret why he is there? So yeah MC is in the wrong for invading their privacy in THEIR BEDROOMS. WHERE THEY CHANGE THEIR CLOTHES.

Nope. Still in the right. At the time, how does he know that Gracie, Luna, and Isabel/Antonio don't know anything?

And even if he knew for certain that they were ignorant of "the answer", he can't preclude the possibility that they all hold "pieces of the puzzle". Clues the full scope and value of which they might not even recognize themselves.

Know where people tend to keep/discuss alot of their secrets? In THEIR BEDROOMS. WHERE THEY CHANGE THEIR CLOTHES.

Sorry, you don't get to send me off to have gun fights with blood thirsty killers against my will and they cry victim because I invaded your privacy.

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

Not the same. One you can see them naked or in underwear or various ways of undress. While hearing what they say. The other you just hear what they say. One is just a violaton of women's privacy the other is a major violation of privacy and can be categorized as creepy. So technically the consequence should not be the same, but if there is a consequence then it will probably be the same either way.

Clues are often every bit as visual and they are auditory. Indeed, they're often more visual than auditory. So yeah, full gathering of proper intel requires both seeing and hearing. You can settle for one or the other if you must...but having both is always the ideal.

 

[Thrill'n Flares]

Nope. Still in the right. At the time, how does he know that Gracie, Luna, and Isabel/Antonio don't know anything?

And even if he knew for certain that they were ignorant of "the answer", he can't preclude the possibility that they all hold "pieces of the puzzle". Clues the full scope and value of which they might not even recognize themselves.

Know where people tend to keep/discuss alot of their secrets? In THEIR BEDROOMS. WHERE THEY CHANGE THEIR CLOTHES.

Sorry, you don't get to send me off to have gun fights with blood thirsty killers against my will and they cry victim because I invaded your privacy.

The thing is ignorance to knowledge is no excuse. That is just rationalizing doing something wrong. He went over the assumption they MAY know something without any reason to think they did know anything. It even has come out they knew nothing. Which constitutes its being wrong to invade their privacy. No rationalizing away the crime except in your rationalizing mind with nonsense.

 

[JJJ84]

Sorry, you don't get to send me off to have gun fights with blood thirsty killers against my will and they cry victim because I invaded your privacy.

Dude, you state that as if MC will have any choice in the matter (that is, assuming if his cameras/recorders ever get found out).
He basically lives with the Family.
And when he lives with the Family, he lives under Cordia and Wilfred's rules (just like Luna and Gracie does).

So MC can shout angrily at them saying "I'm doing this because you forced me into this contract!" thumping his chest or even try to get them to sympathize with him all he wants, all that just shows him trying to justify/rationalize/sugarcoat doing something very wrong, especially given he got caught once already by Cordia sneaking into her office and she was not pleased with it.

Therefore if Cordia and Wilfred decides to punish him (and I think they should, even if it's just a formality, to show that doing wrong things even when one might have good reasons for it has consequences), he would have no choice but to accept the said punishment.

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

Of course he has no choice but to accept their punishment. Prisoners and slaves never have much choice of anything except whether to accept their oppression, or rebel against it.

The MC has chosen to rebel. Rebellions tend to have consequences. Whether those consequences prove to be good or bad, only time will tell.

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

The thing is ignorance to knowledge is no excuse. That is just rationalizing doing something wrong. He went over the assumption they MAY know something without any reason to think they did know anything. It even has come out they knew nothing. Which constitutes its being wrong to invade their privacy. No rationalizing away the crime except in your rationalizing mind with nonsense.

He didn't know that at the time though did he? It's perfectly reasonable to believe the Mafia Don's own immediate family would be privy to the truth of why he was there. Or soon be made privy.

And in the beginning EVERYBODY is a suspect to the biggest question of all: Who's trying to murder him.

Yes, NOW the MC trusts that they're not trying to kill him. At least, not directly. And NOW he knows that only Wilfred and Cordia are privy to the terms of the contact he never even consented to. But the cameras are still valid. It's likely that sooner or later one of the Deluca kids...Anthony most likely...will be told the truth. Or discover it some other way. And as I already said it's possible ALL of them have pieces of the puzzle they're either unaware of, or hiding for some other purpose.

The Nookie is just a pleasant bonus.

At no point does the MC have ANY moral obligation to his captors beyond the ones he chooses to assume...and he can choose to abandon those assumptions as it suits him. Nobody on earth has a moral obligation to their jailor. It doesn't matter how nice your jailor is to you. You owe them nothing. He violated their privacy? Well they've violated his humanity. And continue to do so every single day he is bound to their service against his will. Kinda like a slave, now that I think about it. In fact it's probably a much more apt comparison than Prisoner/Jailor is.

Some slaves throughout history were definitely treated better than others. Some even got to live in the main house with the master. Some were even considered "almost family". But just because a master treats a slave kindly, doesn't change the implications of that relationship. And it sure as heck doesn't place the slave under any form of moral obligation to the master.

A slave's only moral obligation is to their own emancipation.

 

[c3p0]

At no point does the MC have ANY moral obligation to his captors beyond the ones he chooses to assume...and he can choose to abandon those assumptions as it suits him. Nobody on earth has a moral obligation to their jailor.

Is Luna his jailor? Is Gracie his jailor? Is Isabel his jailor? Also do the three have a saying in how Cordia and Wilfred does their mafia buisness? Even Antonio as the capobastone doesn't really have an influence on this. Isabel isn't even in the family buisness.

Would I do the same a try to gather everything I can in his situation? Yes. But I wouldn't say that is my right to do so and it is moral OK to do so. As JJJ84 said two wrongs don't make right.

 

[JJJ84]

He didn't know that at the time though did he? It's perfectly reasonable to believe the Mafia Don's own immediate family would be privy to the truth of why he was there. Or soon be made privy.

And in the beginning EVERYBODY is a suspect to the biggest question of all: Who's trying to murder him.

At no point does the MC have ANY moral obligation to his captors. Nobody on earth has a moral obligation to their jailor. It doesn't matter how nice your jailor is to you. You owe them nothing. He violated their privacy? Well they've violated his humanity, first. And continue to do so every single day he is bound to their service against his will. Kinda like a slave, now that I think about it. In fact it's probably a much more apt comparison than Prisoner/Jailor is.

Some slaves throughout history were definitely treated better than others. Some even got to live in the main house with the master. Some were even considered "almost family". But just because a master treats a slave kindly, doesn't change the implications of the that relationship. And it sure as heck doesn't place the slave under any form of moral obligation to the master.

A slave's only moral obligation is to their own emancipation.

That is just waaaaaaaaaaay too black and white way of viewing MC's situation.

Yes, in purely semantics, him being "in contract" could mean various things; that he's a hostage, prisoner, captive etc.
But in actual reality of MC's case, he hasn't really been treated as any of the above terms.

As per the contract, he's basically obligated to work for the Family, but the Family is not mistreating MC like they would a hostage/prisoner/captive.

- He has his own room (and not kept in an actual jail cell).
- He is actually given training for his contracts to build experience.
- He spends times withthe girls and actually dines with the Family members.

Yes, MC is put in life or death situations with being in the Family, but that's just what everyone who becomes part of the Family goes through.
Both Wilfred and Cordia also states "If he does not learn to get stronger, he will not survive in our world."

So he's not being put through this experience of violence because the DeLucas want to harm him any way, they want him to become stronger, to prepare for any trials he may face in the future.
He's not being mistreated, and other than his obligation to fulfil his contract for the family, he is left to his own devices and given as much freedom as possible as long as it doesn't harm the Family in any way.

Taking all that into account, I'd say you referring to them treating him as a slave (whether better treated slaves or not) or they are taking away his humanity is reeeeeeeeally stretching it.
There's just far too much shades of grey within his situation for him to be identified that way.


As for whether MC owes moral obligation towards the Family or not, you say he doesn't, but I disagree.
Strong sense of trust have already begun to develop between MC and the girls (which is obvious from Luna, Gracie, and Isabel's events), and even between MC and Cordia and Wilfred, where the Donna and Consigliere asks the MC to solve the issues each of the girls have.

If the cameras/recorders were revealed, it would be seen by the Family as a huge breach in trust.
The girls would be incredibly furious/sad with the MC, and both Cordia and Wilfred will be very upset yet also very disappointed with the MC (given how much they trusted him with).

The DeLucas, while having the MC be placed under their Contract, literally opened up their Family and their issues to MC and placed their trust in him (when they didn't have to)
So of course, moral obligation would be there from MC to the Family.
In the very beginning the Family members were complete strangers, but MC is still keeping the cameras/audio recorders and using them even after all this time, so I'd say the Family would have every darn right to be upset with him because what he's been doing is wrong.

 

[justsum]

Many moons from now when the game is complete there could be offshoots. Turn The Delucia Family into a franchise. Next in the shoot could be Luna Delucia or Gracie Delucia or The young Cordia herself.

 

[Rovenant]

I really love to see you all debating (some weeks ago it was all post of crap comments that you all know) so first i want to thank you all for making this waiting an amazing one.

And for the latest topic we where debating about:
The MC situation is a unique one.

Hostage topic:
-He was forced into this caotic world no matter what he wished. [Ok, its true, but we still dont know a lot about this. Was his mother the reason because all this happened? His father? Even if he was contract forced into this world he was already into (his own family and his friend is really close to everything).]

-He is imprisioned into the house and little other places. [Ok, again that is true, but thats not all what we know. If we dont believe the theory about the red flag operation, then the MC thinks that are outside forces trying to kill him, so is this family really keeping him as hostage? or saving him? Then again if you are a hostage why they leave you made close contact with the girls, and even encouraging it?.]


Moral obligations topic:
This is a completely subjective topic. But what we know is:

-He didnt like anything the first days. He even was in danger in this "safe" place.
-After some interactions he develop a friendly relationship with Luna, Gracie and Isabel. He used cameras/micro and, as c3p0 said, Luna, Gracie and Isabel didnt know anithing and even tried to help him. So Wilfred, Antonio or Cordia could be seen as "bad" people? of course (its enterely subjective because so far we dont know why the did everithing).

The Micro/Cameras started as a plan to uncover any plot against him. He was forced into everything and they did all they could to not help MC (im talking about Cordia and Wilfred) keeping the info in secret. And it wasnt just one attempt to kill the MC, so its kind of understandable the reaction. BUT being understandable doesnt mean the will not kill him because of what he did, this is the Mafia world.

And finally, what motives the MC to act? Well, i think the girls are the answer. You choose to go against M6 after knowing the danger in that, just to help Luna. You choose to put you in danger ignoring Antonio just to make Isabel happy (optional). When MC killed for first time it was traumatic, but he cared more about Luna reaction. MC was ready to jump into enemy hands and die for them.

Conclusions: The three girls (Gracie, Luna, Isabel) are the reason that MC have to act and help the family (at least, and so far we know). And if there is some "prisioner" and Cordia and Wilfred are the "bad" ones, then consider his mother and father "bad".

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

Is Luna his jailor? Is Gracie his jailor? Is Isabel his jailor? Also do the three have a saying in how Cordia and Wilfred does their mafia buisness? Even Antonio as the capobastone doesn't really have an influence on this. Isabel isn't even in the family buisness.

Would I do the same a try to gather everything I can in his situation? Yes. But I wouldn't say that is my right to do so and it is moral OK to do so. As JJJ84 said two wrongs don't make right.

He had every reason to beleive they were his Jailors/Masters when he planted the cameras. And frankly...they are. Again, they are nice Jailors/Masters. Sweet, and funny and sexy jailors/masters. But yes, they are absolutely, objectively, his de-facto masters/jailers.

A master who treats his slaves well is still a master.

They may have been thrust into that role almost(ALMOST) as unwillingly as the MC was...but they haven't rejected that role.

As JJJ84 said two wrongs don't make right.

This is a simplistic expression that gets thrown around way too much. It's just factually incorrect. Let's use an example from this very game.

Killing people is wrong.

Wrong Number One(Guys tries to kill Luna) + Wrong Number Two(MC Kills Guy First) = Right(Luna Lives long enough to one day avenge the victims of the Mysterious 6 and give MC lots of psychopathic babies)

Human history is built on a massive pileup of "wrongs" getting slap-patched together into a big messy bunch of "rights".

"Two wrongs don't make a right" is a cute little slogan we feed to children when we're giving them their very first introduction to morality. And it's a good foundation upon which to build a strong moral core as you move into adulthood...but if you get stuck there you'll never evolve. The real world is not that simplistic.