Ren'Py Abandoned The DeLuca Family [Season 1] [HopesGaming]

[whichone]

this will be my last post on this thread. I see no point in talking here anymore considering someone will report it for some asinine reason. to the person who has been false reporting my posts, I hope you get an IP ban for life. goodbye everyone else

Perhaps if your posts were ON topic, instead of whinging about having previous off topic posts removed, they might not get removed.

Is anyone else confused by this? He's axing what exactly? Getting rid of free roam and making it more of a vn? Whatever works is cool but I don't know what he's saying here.

Nope, also confused.
Reading that, he's "axing gameplay", apparently. Whatever the fuck that means.
Was quite looking forward to C, B, A (& S?) ranked contracts...

 

[JJJ84]

It slowed down with the new contract gameplay shit, if he's axing it it might speed back up.

While I think the gameplay aspect of the Contracts had its share of issues (frequent bugs which Hopes and his coder had to quash time and time again, time taking to develop and code in the contracts in terms of freeroaming etc), I think (in my point of view) axing Wilfred's contracts entirely would be a mistake.
The contracts themselves, despite their issues showed that there's potential for a lot of great side stories people (not just Hopes, since he only wrote Nimble Fingers and rest written by volunteer writers) can tell to expand the DeLuca-verse.

Not to mention the whole point of the contracts was to give chance for the side characters (like Lelianna, Amita, Amata, etc) who may not get as much screen time in the main story as the main LIs a place to have some spotlight.

So my proposal to Hopes (through DM in discord) was the following;

Instead of scrapping the Wilfred's Contracts entirely, just ax the gameplay but keep the Wilfred's contracts going in a "light-novel" kind of way; Contracts will mostly be text, while being supplemented by couple of images or animations.

This will result in zero gameplay (as well as all the issues like bugs which come with it), but still fulfills the intent of why the contracts were created in the first place.
Also, there's the added benefit of the current talent of contract writers keeping their creative juices flowing, and things don't come to a screeching full stop like it will happen if everything Contracts is axed.


So, waiting to see how Hopes replies on that one.

 

[Tokenugget]

While I think the gameplay aspect of the Contracts had its share of issues (frequent bugs which Hopes and his coder had to quash time and time again, time taking to develop and code in the contracts in terms of freeroaming etc), I think (in my point of view) axing Wilfred's contracts entirely would be a mistake.
The contracts themselves, despite their issues showed that there's potential for a lot of great side stories people (not just Hopes, since he only wrote Nimble Fingers and rest written by volunteer writers) can tell to expand the DeLuca-verse.

Not to mention the whole point of the contracts was to give chance for the side characters (like Lelianna, Amita, Amata, etc) who may not get as much screen time in the main story as the main LIs a place to have some spotlight.

So my proposal to Hopes (through DM in discord) was the following;

Instead of scrapping the Wilfred's Contracts entirely, just ax the gameplay but keep the Wilfred's contracts going in a "light-novel" kind of way; Contracts will mostly be text, while being supplemented by couple of images or animations.

This will result in zero gameplay (as well as all the issues like bugs which come with it), but still fulfills the intent of why the contracts were created in the first place.
Also, there's the added benefit of the current talent of contract writers keeping their creative juices flowing, and things don't come to a screeching full stop like it will happen if everything Contracts is axed.


So, waiting to see how Hopes replies on that one.

Oh geez. That's what i was worried about. I've played this game multiple times in storymode only. But there's more content with Amita and Amata in gameplay?? Ugh

 

[Dessolos]

While I think the gameplay aspect of the Contracts had its share of issues (frequent bugs which Hopes and his coder had to quash time and time again, time taking to develop and code in the contracts in terms of freeroaming etc), I think (in my point of view) axing Wilfred's contracts entirely would be a mistake.
The contracts themselves, despite their issues showed that there's potential for a lot of great side stories people (not just Hopes, since he only wrote Nimble Fingers and rest written by volunteer writers) can tell to expand the DeLuca-verse.

Not to mention the whole point of the contracts was to give chance for the side characters (like Lelianna, Amita, Amata, etc) who may not get as much screen time in the main story as the main LIs a place to have some spotlight.

So my proposal to Hopes (through DM in discord) was the following;

Instead of scrapping the Wilfred's Contracts entirely, just ax the gameplay but keep the Wilfred's contracts going in a "light-novel" kind of way; Contracts will mostly be text, while being supplemented by couple of images or animations.

This will result in zero gameplay (as well as all the issues like bugs which come with it), but still fulfills the intent of why the contracts were created in the first place.
Also, there's the added benefit of the current talent of contract writers keeping their creative juices flowing, and things don't come to a screeching full stop like it will happen if everything Contracts is axed.


So, waiting to see how Hopes replies on that one.

that would be a perfect solution as I didn't care to play the minigame on my first Playthrough as I didnt enjoy it.

 

[whichone]

While I think the gameplay aspect of the Contracts had its share of issues (frequent bugs which Hopes and his coder had to quash time and time again, time taking to develop and code in the contracts in terms of freeroaming etc), I think (in my point of view) axing Wilfred's contracts entirely would be a mistake.
The contracts themselves, despite their issues showed that there's potential for a lot of great side stories people (not just Hopes, since he only wrote Nimble Fingers and rest written by volunteer writers) can tell to expand the DeLuca-verse.

Not to mention the whole point of the contracts was to give chance for the side characters (like Lelianna, Amita, Amata, etc) who may not get as much screen time in the main story as the main LIs a place to have some spotlight.

So my proposal to Hopes (through DM in discord) was the following;

Instead of scrapping the Wilfred's Contracts entirely, just ax the gameplay but keep the Wilfred's contracts going in a "light-novel" kind of way; Contracts will mostly be text, while being supplemented by couple of images or animations.

This will result in zero gameplay (as well as all the issues like bugs which come with it), but still fulfills the intent of why the contracts were created in the first place.
Also, there's the added benefit of the current talent of contract writers keeping their creative juices flowing, and things don't come to a screeching full stop like it will happen if everything Contracts is axed.


So, waiting to see how Hopes replies on that one.

So, in other words, revert contracts to what they originally were & just add in a bit of story?
Instead of how they were originally just "click to receive reward", make them "click to receive reward & get a couple of scenes + some story"?

IDK, I didn't like Contracts at first, but they are literally the only thing that makes this a game, other than just a VN.
Gaining the extra clothing, for extra stats, which enables us to complete more of the mission, made it progressive & rewarding.
Click to proceed does not.
I'm not sure that I'd be pleased, if they were to be removed.

 

[JJJ84]

So, in other words, revert contracts to what they originally were & just add in a bit of story?

Well, from what I remember about the original contracts, I don't think there was that much of a story to begin with.
There was just one very short paragraph for each of them, which resulted in this roll of dice like mechanic which was totally random resulting in either success or fail.

Hopes' new contracts brought gameplay, yes.
But the writers (Hopes and the volunteer writers) also brought dedicated storyline for these side characters.

And if Hopes decides he wants to scrap the gameplay, well I do think the primary intent of the contracts can be still salvageable by treating them as.....like a light-novel as I mentioned before.

But that's just my suggestion.
I also had another question that I posed to him regarding this decision, so I'm waiting to hear from him regarding my original suggestion and my follow-up question.

If Hopes doesn't mind me sharing the details after giving his answer, I'll share it here.

 

[JJJ84]

So, in other words, revert contracts to what they originally were & just add in a bit of story?
Instead of how they were originally just "click to receive reward", make them "click to receive reward & get a couple of scenes + some story"?

IDK, I didn't like Contracts at first, but they are literally the only thing that makes this a game, other than just a VN.
Gaining the extra clothing, for extra stats, which enables us to complete more of the mission, made it progressive & rewarding.
Click to proceed does not.
I'm not sure that I'd be pleased, if they were to be removed.

Yes, I mean I liked the Contracts too, I grew to like them quite a bit but I do understand it has gotten some mixed reception from the players; certain subset of players like them, other subset of players don't like them as much.

Also implementing the whole contract system had its drawbacks/issues too - the game resulted in getting quite a lot more bugs than usual which Hopes and his coder had to quash time after time again.
And from my recent convo with Hopes, looking back he regrets not putting in more girls free-roam events for season 1. And from what I can he does think it was too much time committed to the contracts and the gameplay section.

From what I can tell of what he said, all the stats related stuff (MC's stats, gear stats etc) will get removed (so, no combat gameplay).

Story Contracts (like Season 1's Ombra contracts, or Gracie's missions with MC, Luna, Eiza, Joey) he said will remain but will get a bit of rework so no stats use is required anymore.

Though it's gonna be a question of how much of gameplay is gonna be axed.
Just the stats system?

Or is the whole area map (which player moves around with the whole WSAD or arrows buttons) gonna be scrapped too?
Nothing has been confirmed by Hopes at this point.

But ngl, it's gonna feel pretty weird if season 1 has the whole area map traversal gameplay (even with no stats), but that gets all suddenly dropped for season 2.
I would prefer that there's consistency across all seasons.
That would only happen by;
- Either do only partial axing of gameplay so that contract maps still remain, but without the whole stats coming into play,
or
- Redoing all the previous mission contracts in VN format like he did with Fazio/Straffan contract (this is only if he decides to axe everything gameplay)


But above is just my two cents after hearing his decision to axe gameplay.
I have no idea what Hopes is thinking of regarding this matter.

We'll have a more clear picture when he replies to me or when he makes a formal patreon announcement about this.
Until then, all we can do is just speculate.

 

[JJJ84]

So, he thinks that he wasted a lot of time implementing them, so now wants to remove them.
That seems rather counterproductive.
He's already spent the time, so at least there's something to show for it.
If he removes them, it's gonna take even more time & then leave us with nothing to show for it.

Fucking dumb, if you ask me.

Well, okay the last bit "And from what I can he does think it was too much time committed to the contracts and the gameplay section." bit is my assumption from reading his discord post with "I realized it took too much time away from free roaming events." and his further statement of "I regret not doing more free roam events." in his DMs with me.

Not sure he actually thinks of this as a waste though; perhaps he thinks of it as a learning experience?
Can't really say I fault him for thinking that way if he does (but that's just me. You or others may feel differently about the matter).
And while Contracts were fun while they were present, if he decides to remove them, it would be a shame yes. But I wouldn't consider it being removed as a deal breaker in my enjoyment of the game.

 

[JJJ84]

Again, this does not mean "remove contracts".
It just means stop using that mechanic for main story events, such as Exploring Lucania. This is where the problems arose.
There were absolutely none, that I can think of, with the original 5 (reworked) contracts.
To the best of my memory, all 5 worked absolutely fine, without issue.

When I asked him what the discord announcement means for Wilfred's Contracts, his reply was the following.

"Those are unfortunately part of what will get axed. Unless I think of a workaround."

So I'm guessing that whatever change comes for the story contracts, may also be implemented for Wilfred's contracts (or I could be totally wrong, and that may not be the case lol).

But regardless, let's just wait and see what he announces.
So far, we have no idea what exactly will get axed, and how much will get axed and how this will impact season 2 going forward.

 

[sahadeva]

So my proposal to Hopes (through DM in discord) was the following;

Instead of scrapping the Wilfred's Contracts entirely, just ax the gameplay but keep the Wilfred's contracts going in a "light-novel" kind of way; Contracts will mostly be text, while being supplemented by couple of images or animations.

This will result in zero gameplay (as well as all the issues like bugs which come with it), but still fulfills the intent of why the contracts were created in the first place.
Also, there's the added benefit of the current talent of contract writers keeping their creative juices flowing, and things don't come to a screeching full stop like it will happen if everything Contracts is axed.


So, waiting to see how Hopes replies on that one.

That sounds perfect! I really liked some of the contract stories, but the "gameplay" itself is kinda bland, mostly for the lack of background images than anything else. Especially in large maps, having to traverse every cell where only a handful have any actual content was somewhat annoying (Gracie's mission comes to mind)

Your solution sounds awesome. It would keep all the good stuff while discarding any unnecessary grind.

 

[Cartageno]

So, he thinks that he wasted a lot of time implementing them, so now wants to remove them.
That seems rather counterproductive.
He's already spent the time, at least there's currently something to show for it.
If he removes them, it's gonna take even more time & then leave us with nothing to show for it.

While I also am not happy about the prospect of losing gameplay, as I like some of that to entertain me and I thought it was well made, "He's already spent the time" is a classic case of the sunk cost fallacy dreaded in economics. The time spent on the system will never return whether he keeps the contracts or throws them out. What should count is looking from here on forward. And while putting in work to remove content seems indeed counterintuitive at least, and actually may well be, the question is how much work would be needed to keep the system somewhat coherent and not have an abandoned mechanic half way through (if e.g. he just let them be as is and doesn't add anything more).

The latter also plays into a pet peeve of mine, there are quite a few games I played which had some gameplay elements removed because they were out of scope or dev's ability, not as much fun as hoped and so forth, but had kept all the stuff already in, in the worst case even left the "more to come in the next update" in the finished version.

I am all for keeping the gameplay in, but if that part is to be ended, I am all for taking it out completely, even if that would turn the game into a "VN with room choice". Either way though, the time spent so far is gone and should not be taken into account, only the time needed from now on to keep it up vs its benefit.

Then again, I have not spent a single cent on this game, so I will have to accept whatever happens.

 

[c3p0]

Regarding the contracts, I would try to simplify it.

The first contract system was nothing more than a dice game and add, in my eyes, nothing to the game. The second contract system is more a game in a game and with maps, inventar and all.

The quest itself, their story, in my eyes, is were they are excellence at. As such, I would remove the whole maps and inventar altogether and make them as a game book.

The removing of the contract system as a whole, I would strongly dislike.

 

[HopesGaming]

Just to add.
It's only for season 2 and up that gameplay will be removed. Sorry for the confusion!
The idea of simplifying it sounds great, actually. Need to think about it, of course, but it could be a great idea.
I just want to simply a lot of stuff going forward.
Any further ideas of simplification are welcome. Reading em all.

 

[c3p0]

It's only for season 2 and up that gameplay will be removed. Sorry for the confusion!

Regarding this, as my own two cents, I would try to have the same gameplay for all Delucas games as much as possible.

 

[imadumb]

Just to add.
It's only for season 2 and up that gameplay will be removed. Sorry for the confusion!
The idea of simplifying it sounds great, actually. Need to think about it, of course, but it could be a great idea.
I just want to simply a lot of stuff going forward.
Any further ideas of simplification are welcome. Reading em all.

u mean the sandbox stuff? sorry, ima kinda lost here, too much time without reading the entire thread (by the way, any news about S2?)

 

[HopesGaming]

Regarding this, as my own two cents, I would try to have the same gameplay for all Delucas games as much as possible.

Can always go back and simply the season 1 gameplay as an update. Just not currently as I want to focus on season 2.

u mean the sandbox stuff? sorry, ima kinda lost here, too much time without reading the entire thread (by the way, any news about S2?)

Only the text based adventure part. Rest is as it has always been. No update but steam release will probably be ready before season 2.

 

[JJJ84]

Just to add.
It's only for season 2 and up that gameplay will be removed. Sorry for the confusion!
The idea of simplifying it sounds great, actually. Need to think about it, of course, but it could be a great idea.
I just want to simply a lot of stuff going forward.
Any further ideas of simplification are welcome. Reading em all.

Can always go back and simply the season 1 gameplay as an update. Just not currently as I want to focus on season 2.



Only the text based adventure part. Rest is as it has always been. No update but steam release will probably be ready before season 2.

Given the whole map and the traversal gameplay became quite a bit of issue with the bugs that you and the coder had to quash time and time again, how about simplifying it into something like this instead of the all intricate maps (for season 1 rework and season 2 going forward)?

Following are screenshots I took from Dune: Breeding a Dynasty;

Spoiler: Text based adventure part with choices

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Spoiler: The traversal part

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Instead of an entire map coded out each time, just have one click buttons like above which will immediately move the MC to the destination?

That would entirely remove the whole WSAD or arrows movement, with the contracts but still maintain the text adventure essence of it.

Of course, the shot above with 3 locations (Paul's room, Meeting Hall, Storage. I guess actually 4, since Corridor is current location in that pic) is all put close together cause they're in the same building.
If you have MC and the girls travelling from DeLuca territory to another Family's territory, it would be more plausible to have the 2 separate buttons further apart.

 

[jish55]

Just to add.
It's only for season 2 and up that gameplay will be removed. Sorry for the confusion!
The idea of simplifying it sounds great, actually. Need to think about it, of course, but it could be a great idea.
I just want to simply a lot of stuff going forward.
Any further ideas of simplification are welcome. Reading em all.

Yeah, I feel that removing gameplay will also allow for you to focus much more on the story you want to tell and not have to do all these odds and ends, which honestly, the story IS what makes this game amazing, where I want to see what happens next.

 

[RicksTheBricks]

Whilst I agree with the statement made above with it allowing the developer to focus on the story and that's what makes the game amazing! I feel like the contract system added a lot of replayability to the game and further added to it's immersion of us being in a mob setting. Either way the game is great and I'll be looking forward to further releases.

 

[Jimayo]

Continuing to use the contract mechanic for contracts, where there is zero problem,

If it takes twice as long to make the contracts as it does everything else, that's a problem. You're just not recognizing it as one cause you are weirdly attached from what is essentially a small text adventure game from the 80's and 90's(ie. something not worth hanging on to if it's significantly slowing development). So yes, the sunk cost fallacy applies.