VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.4.0] [Ceolag]

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I think part of the reason I have no issue with Kaija's lie is because I blame it mostly on the parents. If I recall correctly they got her to lie from a young age, so I can see why after lying for so many years it became harder and harder. Tho I do think she should of kept us in the friend zone until she was ready to tell her the truth or at the very least part of the truth as I could understand keeping a secret society secret. That's what I blame her for and did have an issue with at first as being our girlfriend makes it so much worst.

Sounds like you are making excuses to forgive her. MC's dad is an asshole for what he did, his mother too but the game was absolutely clear about that they did not force Kaija for anything. They tasked her to protect MC and that was it, how she was going to do was up to her.
If you are talking about keeping the order secret, it's not a lie from her part. She does not need to tell anything to MC if they were just friends. She chose to be that close, she chose to lie. Iirc, even their friendship was fading when they started to grow up. MC mentioned she was not the same person as before and he only catch glimpses of her old self time to time in her eyes.
IMO that sounded like they were not even going to stay as a friend, if she was not tied to MC by her task. Love path or not, she used MC's feeling. First their friendship, then the love. Now, this will be my speculation but I think she chose that path because she noticed they were not going to stay close friend much longer, so she jumped into relationship.

I just felt she was sincere with how sorry she was and for me it didn't feel like a bad lie that would hurt us if she was never our girlfriend to begin with and we questioned if really loved us. So I think if I didn't feel like she was sincere and perhaps I had a different personality in real life I wouldn't of been able to forgive here. There was also the fact that I didn't feel like I got to know the other LI well enough just yet personally to the point that made an impression on me is another factor that comes into play why Kaija is my current favorite.

I measure sincerity of an apology through how willing they are not to repeat same mistake. Not gonna talk about evil bitch path since she is not even apologetic in that path but I am thinking she would do all of it, all over again if she ordered by Templars. Why do I think like that? Try to make her stay out of the fight when they stumbled into Elven Hellspawn skirmish, you'll see. So I really don't think she is sincere. Also not knowing other LIs is really not related to Kaija being redeemable or not.
You are right though, these stuff depends on personality and how gullible you are or how big your heart is.

I can see Fiona being my favorite once we learn more about her. Fiona seems the most interesting so far to me and I feel like she's the only other LI I felt like we started to learn a lot about. While with Elea we started to learn more about her just not enough yet for me personally. I do get the feeling the next update with her we will get to know her alot better. Tho perhaps I forget something about her which is why I feel like that sometimes my memory sucks when moving onto to the next AVN, especially when the LI wasn't my first choice.

I do agree being Fiona is the most interesting. Though, with last update Medb climbed the top for me. Especially when queen mentioned Medb's soft spot for humans. AFAIK, next update will be elven one so unfortunately we are not gonna see Fiona or Elea. Luckily no Kaija too. Jokes aside I think, at least for me, the most crucial deciding point for Kaija will be the revelation of what happened to her parents and her grandparents. Whatever happened effected her deeply and changed her. I think she is justifying everything she does by that scar whatever it is. Also, Kaija path being your favourite and Kaija being your favourite is very different things. I will always keep a save for her because she is crucially important to story and enjoying her path is a given, if you enjoy this game but forgiving such a person then putting her above all others is weird at best at this point.

 

[Dessolos]

Sounds like you are making excuses to forgive her. MC's dad is an asshole for what he did, his mother too but the game was absolutely clear about that they did not force Kaija for anything. They tasked her to protect MC and that was it, how she was going to do was up to her.
If you are talking about keeping the order secret, it's not a lie from her part. She does not need to tell anything to MC if they were just friends. She chose to be that close, she chose to lie. Iirc, even their friendship was fading when they started to grow up. MC mentioned she was not the same person as before and he only catch glimpses of her old self time to time in her eyes.
IMO that sounded like they were not even going to stay as a friend, if she was not tied to MC by her task. Love path or not, she used MC's feeling. First their friendship, then the love. Now, this will be my speculation but I think she chose that path because she noticed they were not going to stay close friend much longer, so she jumped into relationship.


I measure sincerity of an apology through how willing they are not to repeat same mistake. Not gonna talk about evil bitch path since she is not even apologetic in that path but I am thinking she would do all of it, all over again if she ordered by Templars. Why do I think like that? Try to make her stay out of the fight when they stumbled into Elven Hellspawn skirmish, you'll see. So I really don't think she is sincere. Also not knowing other LIs is really not related to Kaija being redeemable or not.
You are right though, these stuff depends on personality and how gullible you are or how big your heart is.


I do agree being Fiona is the most interesting. Though, with last update Medb climbed the top for me. Especially when queen mentioned Medb's soft spot for humans. AFAIK, next update will be elven one so unfortunately we are not gonna see Fiona or Elea. Luckily no Kaija too. Jokes aside I think, at least for me, the most crucial deciding point for Kaija will be the revelation of what happened to her parents and her grandparents. Whatever happened effected her deeply and changed her. I think she is justifying everything she does by that scar whatever it is. Also, Kaija path being your favourite and Kaija being your favourite is very different things. I will always keep a save for her because she is crucially important to story and enjoying her path is a given, if you enjoy this game but forgiving such a person then putting her above all others is weird at best at this point.

fair points I probably am making up excuses to a small degree, since as you know im a very forgiving person. So having a personality like that it probably is easier to justify / make excuses for someone you want to like. Especially after putting some thought into it I really should dislike her as a LI. You may be right that perhaps she is just sorry she lied to us but not sorry for doing it only time will tell. Maybe when I play the no love and unsure path for for her my opinion will change. I just kinda of felt like sharing how I felt about her currently been thinking about her character on and off since I played the game.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

fair points I probably am making up excuses to a small degree, since as you know im a very forgiving person. So having a personality like that it probably is easier to justify / make excuses for someone you want to like. Especially after putting some thought into it I really should dislike her as a LI. You may be right that perhaps she is just sorry she lied to us but not sorry for doing it only time will tell. Maybe when I play the no love and unsure path for for her my opinion will change. I just kinda of felt like sharing how I felt about her currently been thinking about her character on and off since I played the game.

I really enjoy reading your posts tbh. Most of the time, we are thinking exact opposite to each other and I do enjoy understanding other side of the coin by reading your posts. Also you were one of them that made me change my opinion on Alexis.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Yup and while the new extra scenes as kid helps in both ways...ultimately she still tells (regardless of path) that she 'officially' became a templar when she turned 18, but that she had been training for many years before that. In my mind, the parents knew then and as I reiterate here often, she was trained from a young age to be close to the MC as they were friends as young kids.


Again, this all depends on the path you take with her, though even on the love path, it takes her time to realise what she has done and to actually try and put you first ahead of duty. Any other path, she makes it clear duty and oaths will always matter more.

Yup, two best for me too (though in many saves I don't accept Fiona's bullshit if keeping secrets from us (given she knows we have trust issues and have been open and honest with her, shame we don't get the same treatment back). Elea, best for me...interesting character and a mythological and lore & Legend expert, probably more than the templars themselves (as even if they do have certain knowledge of certain things), getting anyone to actually tell us (especially the asshole) is another matter entirely.

I think regardless of the path, Kaija crossed the line when she entered in to a relationship with the MC. She then moved in with him making it so much worse.

I'm happy to cut Fiona some slack. MC and her aren't in a relationship. MC is rebounding off his relationship with Kaija so I can understand Fiona's reluctance to say too much yet, especially if opening up puts her in danger. If she crosses the line of entering a relationship with MC then the secrets need to come out, especially knowing he is part of that world now and his trust issues.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I think regardless of the path, Kaija crossed the line when she entered in to a relationship with the MC. She then moved in with him making it so much worse.

I'm happy to cut Fiona some slack. MC and her aren't in a relationship. MC is rebounding off his relationship with Kaija so I can understand Fiona's reluctance to say too much yet, especially if opening up puts her in danger. If she crosses the line of entering a relationship with MC then the secrets need to come out, especially knowing he is part of that world now and his trust issues.

 

[Ceolag]

Hey everyone,

this week has been a bit of a mixed bag for me.
It started with me catching a cold and being in bed the whole Sunday and Monday. Couldn't get anything done in those 2 days.
Luckily, it's been a lot better since Tuesday although I'm still a bit tired in the evening.

Considering I'm missing 2 full days and still lack a bit of energy, the progress this week is still... acceptable.
My focus this and last week was mostly on rendering and catching up with the already-written dialogue.
I'm roughly halfway through but I hope to get a bit more done next week if nothing else.
As you can see, renders will be the main focus of the next week and probably the week after.

The raw numbers for this week:
71 new static renders for a total of 148
1 new animation for a total of... 1
200 more lines in the script file for a total of 860

I guess that's it already for today, I'll get back to setting up renders.

Have a nice weekend, guys.

Cheers,
Ceolag

 

[Maviarab]

It started with me catching a cold and being in bed the whole Sunday and Monday. Couldn't get anything done in those 2 days.

Man-Flu can be a killer Take care of yourself Ceo.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

View attachment 3255271


Hey everyone,

this week has been a bit of a mixed bag for me.
It started with me catching a cold and being in bed the whole Sunday and Monday. Couldn't get anything done in those 2 days.
Luckily, it's been a lot better since Tuesday although I'm still a bit tired in the evening.

Considering I'm missing 2 full days and still lack a bit of energy, the progress this week is still... acceptable.
My focus this and last week was mostly on rendering and catching up with the already-written dialogue.
I'm roughly halfway through but I hope to get a bit more done next week if nothing else.
As you can see, renders will be the main focus of the next week and probably the week after.

The raw numbers for this week:
71 new static renders for a total of 148
1 new animation for a total of... 1
200 more lines in the script file for a total of 860

I guess that's it already for today, I'll get back to setting up renders.

Have a nice weekend, guys.

Cheers,
Ceolag

What? Two days off for illness, unacceptable. Double shifts for you next week!

Seriously though, I got the flu the day after Christmas and I was down for 2 weeks lol. Take it easy mate we don't want you ending up in hospital or something.

 

[Dessolos]

View attachment 3255271


Hey everyone,

this week has been a bit of a mixed bag for me.
It started with me catching a cold and being in bed the whole Sunday and Monday. Couldn't get anything done in those 2 days.
Luckily, it's been a lot better since Tuesday although I'm still a bit tired in the evening.

Considering I'm missing 2 full days and still lack a bit of energy, the progress this week is still... acceptable.
My focus this and last week was mostly on rendering and catching up with the already-written dialogue.
I'm roughly halfway through but I hope to get a bit more done next week if nothing else.
As you can see, renders will be the main focus of the next week and probably the week after.

The raw numbers for this week:
71 new static renders for a total of 148
1 new animation for a total of... 1
200 more lines in the script file for a total of 860

I guess that's it already for today, I'll get back to setting up renders.

Have a nice weekend, guys.

Cheers,
Ceolag

As much as we would love to have this out sooner than later. Don't worry about it when you are sick. Alot more important to us you take care of your self and make time for yourself when you need it.

 

[John972]

Why do I think like that? Try to make her stay out of the fight when they stumbled into Elven Hellspawn skirmish, you'll see. So I really don't think she is sincere.

Some interesting points, but I am not sure why you'd want to hoist your Kaija-is-an-untrustworthy-bitch petard on that particular scene.

As Kaija makes clear, she must intervene because the battle involves Hellspawn. What the MC thinks about it is irrelevant at that point because he's still an ignorant Numpty - he's about as knowledgeable of his new reality as a toddler.

Thus, the choice offered during that scene isn't about her, it's about the MC. It's also a Clayton's Choice because Kaija and the MC MUST intervene to advance the plot.

Spoiler: Scene... it's Hellspawn!

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[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Some interesting points, but I am not sure why you'd want to hoist your Kaija-is-an-untrustworthy-bitch petard on that particular scene.

As Kaija makes clear, she must intervene because the battle involves Hellspawn. What the MC thinks about it is irrelevant at that point because he's still an ignorant Numpty - he's about as knowledgeable of his new reality as a toddler.

Thus, the choice offered during that scene isn't about her, it's about the MC. It's also a Clayton's Choice because Kaija and the MC MUST intervene to advance the plot.

Spoiler: Scene... it's Hellspawn!

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Simple actually, attacking and fighting Hellspawn is her job. She immediately choose her job over protecting you in that case. Even if you want to stay away she is ready to leave you behind without protection to do her job. Also in here she basically says this is me you better accept it.

This is scene is also important because first of all it's in love path, secondly this is an answer when you ask about your own protection. Following scene is also important, she say if things go south run and try to find an exit. I don't say MC doesn't mean anything to her but when things come to choose between Templars, her job, her oath vs MC she'll choose first one always.

 

[Tremonia]

when things come to choose between Templars, her job, her oath vs MC she'll choose first one always.

Then she wouldn't left her mission to rescue MC from the mercenaries.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Thus, the choice offered during that scene isn't about her, it's about the MC. It's also a Clayton's Choice because Kaija and the MC MUST intervene to advance the plot.

Also this point is irrelevant, whether or not she have to proceed. Just because this is a must does not mean she did not choose that. In a movie, when a bad guy try to kill the hero of the story, you don't say he is not a bad guy because if he did not try to kill the hero, the advance of the plot would not happen. It maybe true but because they try to kill hero, they are the bad guys and because Kaija putting MC's protection behind of attacking hellspawn makes her untrustable, regardless of that point being neccessary to the plot.

Then she wouldn't left her mission to rescue MC from the mercenaries.

Yeah, that discussion happened several times with no ending, not gonna beat the dead horse again. Though, this happens in only one path and we can't say this is entirely altruistic move from her, since saving MC is an emergency and the immediate task for the TEMPLARS. In addition, well being of MC is still her duty. So coming to aid of MC is another duty from Templars. In one path, she was ordered to, in the other path she chose on her own but still Templar duty.

Edit:
Love path again. She was away, Templars ordered to help to get Alex safely to the house, she decided to check it by herself.


Cold-heart bitch path


Both of the time, it's part of Templar duty but in one she acted by her own, the other one ordered to. Btw, in the bitch path, if she was not ordered I am pretty sure she'd let MC die to hang around at Pussy Twister.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Also this point is irrelevant, whether or not she have to proceed. Just because this is a must does not mean she did not choose that. In a movie, when a bad guy try to kill the hero of the story, you don't say he is not a bad guy because if he did not try to kill the hero, the advance of the plot would not happen. It maybe true but because they try to kill hero, they are the bad guys and because Kaija putting MC's protection behind of attacking hellspawn makes her untrustable, regardless of that point being neccessary to the plot.


Yeah, that discussion happened several times with no ending, not gonna beat the dead horse again. Though, this happens in only one path and we can't say this is entirely altruistic move from her, since saving MC is an emergency and the immediate task for the TEMPLARS. In addition, well being of MC is still her duty. So coming to aid of MC is another duty from Templars. In one path, she was ordered to, in the other path she chose on her own but still Templar duty.

The elves/hellspawn event reinforces my point I have made before, the MC can't trust her. Kaija's loyalty is with the Templars not with him. I have no problem with her being loyal to the Templars, but I have an issue with her claiming she will put him first.

 

[John972]

Simple actually, attacking and fighting Hellspawn is her job. She immediately choose her job over protecting you in that case. Even if you want to stay away she is ready to leave you behind without protection to do her job. Also in here she basically says this is me you better accept it.

This is scene is also important because first of all it's in love path, secondly this is an answer when you ask about your own protection. Following scene is also important, she say if things go south run and try to find an exit. I don't say MC doesn't mean anything to her but when things come to choose between Templars, her job, her oath vs MC she'll choose first one always.

View attachment 3261605

When she says, "This is different," I took that to mean it's different this time because Hellspawn are involved.

The MC is clearly not in any immediate danger, so this is not a choice between her oath and the life of the MC (although it would've been very interesting to see that scenario play out).

Kaija is THE person who broke protocol, broke her oath, and disobeyed orders to save the MC when he was in immediate danger and Hellspawn weren't involved, even though she understood she'd face consequences for that.

Kaija says to the MC, "I know you don't understand." We, as players, don't yet understand all that's at stake or the possible consequences of a Hellspawn reemergence after "a thousand years."

It's the same with not understanding why the MC and his sister were not told the truth about the world, the Templars, and their own family when they were much younger. After all, Kaija knew well before she turned 18, why not the children of the acting Grand Master? It doesn't really make sense at the moment.

I'll reserve judgement on this and other things because there's not enough information yet to understand the wider context. From what I do understand so far, I'm not gonna be butthurt that Kaija serves a higher purpose than the MC's narcissism.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

The elves/hellspawn event reinforces my point I have made before, the MC can't trust her. Kaija's loyalty is with the Templars not with him. I have no problem with her being loyal to the Templars, but I have an issue with her claiming she will put him first.

The thing is she never claimed she'll put MC first. At best, in her lover path, she is unsure and that's it. Some people here try to make her what she is not, so weird if you ask me. There are 2 achievements for her, related to this actually. First one is called Duty First! in this one it is clear she has her priorities settled and it's with Templars. That one is pretty clear, only delusional people make attempt to show her in a good light. Second one is called Duty First? in this one, she is unsure but still puts her duties to Templars prior to MC. There is no achievement called Love First! or something like that. It tells a story, ain't it?

 

[John972]

AIn one path, she was ordered to, in the other path she chose on her own but still Templar duty.

OK, fair point. 'missed the 'ordered to' path...

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I'll reserve judgement on this and other things because there's not enough information yet to understand the wider context.

This is understandable, this is what I do also,though leaning towards distrustful to Kaija.

When she says, "This is different," I took that to mean it's different this time because Hellspawn are involved.

The MC is clearly not in any immediate danger, so this is not a choice between her oath and the life of the MC (although it would've been very interesting to see that scenario play out).

Kaija is THE person who broke protocol, broke her oath, and disobeyed orders to save the MC when he was in immediate danger and Hellspawn weren't involved, even though she understood she'd face consequences for that.

Kaija says to the MC, "I know you don't understand." We, as players, don't yet understand all that's at stake or the possible consequences of a Hellspawn reemergence after "a thousand years."

It's the same with not understanding why the MC and his sister were not told the truth about the world, the Templars, and their own family when they were much younger. After all, Kaija knew well before she turned 18, why not the children of the acting Grand Master? It doesn't really make sense at the moment.

I'll reserve judgement on this and other things because there's not enough information yet to understand the wider context. From what I do understand so far, I'm not gonna be butthurt that Kaija serves a higher purpose than the MC's narcissism.

This is actually what I say from the beginning. She is loyal to the fault to the Templars. We don't know much about her why she is like this but I believe we are hinted it's about her family.

Fighting Hellspawn, protecting MC, acting like a lover to MC to be close with him, whatever she was doing when MC got attacked, hanging around in a strip club in Neverwhere etc. these are all tasks from Templars with different priorities. She does these because she was ordered to. When she chose to protect MC instead of what she was doing at the time, she was simply prioritising one task to another, just like prioritising fighting against Hellspawn over protecting MC. Saying MC is not immediate danger is not point here, that's why I mentioned what she told afterwards. Linnae and Kaija, time and time again mentioned MC cannot survive Neverwhere alone. Then when it comes to that, she says if things go south, run and try to find an exit by yourself to MC whom she clearly believes won't survive by himself.

When people say, she came to MC's aid because she loves her that is what I am arguing. It may effect her decision when she decided to act like that but she was prioritising her tasks. Just like fighting against hellspawn is more important than protecting MC. People says she acted against a direct order when came to help MC but there was no order to not protect him. She was AWOL to make sure about another task, although it still is disobeying the order it's not against her oath, not against direct order etc.
Same as hellspawn fight, she had direct order from Linnae to protect MC she put that order in danger to make sure about another task, fighting Hellspawn.

What you say is right, she may have lots of reasons to trust and be loyal to Templars. We don't know it yet. She may even justify it but it does not change the fact she puts Templars before MC. I have no problem with it tbh, she can do that. Though, when I say she cannot be trusted because of these, no need to defend her, right? She may have her own reasons but she cannot be trusted by MC to choose him over Templars. Saying this is not being butthurt.

 

[Tremonia]

Yeah, that discussion happened several times with no ending, not gonna beat the dead horse again. Though, this happens in only one path and we can't say this is entirely altruistic move from her, since saving MC is an emergency and the immediate task for the TEMPLARS. In addition, well being of MC is still her duty. So coming to aid of MC is another duty from Templars. In one path, she was ordered to, in the other path she chose on her own but still Templar duty.

To be honest, I've never seen another path. I didn't knew there's a way to make her act different at that moment.

But which Kaija is the real one now? The one who breaks her mission to protect her LI or the one who fulfills her duty to protect her LI and the rest of the world?

 

[John972]

She may have her own reasons but she cannot be trusted by MC to choose him over Templars. Saying this is not being butthurt.

Fair points. I await Kaija's loyalty and oath to really be put to the test. That can only be a scenario where Kaija must sacrifice the MC's life for the Templars (I don't even remotely see her leaving to fight the Hellspawn as that choice).