VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[yossa999]

Keeping other people's secrets = building your own relationship on lies
Serving the Templars = Cheating

If you accept these premises, then yes, Kaija is just a piece of shit.

 

[Rehwyn]

Anyone who has had a relationship where one (or both) comitted some atrocity (cheating etc) and they stay together...will know...this very, very, very rarely ever works....

The jilted partner will never, never forget what happened....even if they say they will move on and put it behind them...and always be distrustful over the simplest of things. Really...why would you live like that? Masachism? self loathing? Fear of loneliness? Let me remind people (some probably really need to hear this if they are young), love alone will never keep a relatiosnhip going. Neither will a lack of trust.

"Never" is a very strong absolute. It's not particularly likely and it takes a lot of work and probably therapy, but for some couples trust can recover.

I also find it weird that people keep comparing Kaija's dishonesty with cheating. To my knowledge, there's no indication she was with any other partners during your relationship. Yes, I realize you're making a comparison, but to me dishonesty about essentially your job is a lot less hurtful than dishonesty about your relationship fidelity.

It particularly strikes me as odd considering that the goal of her job as it relates to MC (keeping MC safe) isn't even a bad thing if she had been honest about it. And while her having another romantic relationship with your consent wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (consensual non-monogamy), I think no amount of upfront honesty about cheating without your consent would make it okay. So in the case of cheating, it's not just the dishonesty but also the breach of your relationship fidelity agreement that makes it wrong.

Only on one path but even on that path, she was quite happy to lie to you daily and, directly to your face.

I'll have to try more paths later. I haven't done any where Kaija has low love points, which I suspect is what your referring to.

On that path, if she honestly doesn't actually have romantic feelings for you, I can see why more people would give her the boot.

 

[TrixRabbit]

Kinda responding to a bunch of stuff here all at once rather than reply/quote 3-4 points but ... if the Dev was writing so I'd be pissed at the Templars, it worked. The fact (or implication) that Kaija is remorseful changes nothing. The implication that she "wanted to tell you" changes nothing. ("I'm sorry I cheated on you every single day of our entire relationship, I wanted to stop & come clean, I felt bad about it, but I just couldn't. Forgive me?") The one thing that might have made a difference is if I'd been able to give her an ultimatum on day 1 - right after I found out - that she had to leave the Templars or me - and I mean cut all ties with whichever one she left. But that didn't happen.

If we were supposed to hate the Templars then the Dev did his job well because not only do I feel betrayed but I'm completely unimpressed with them individually, and as an organization and want nothing at all to do with them. The only tie I still feel there is MC's sister - and she is the only one I'll willingly meet with and talk to, but only on her own - not in the Templar's hall or her AND my parents. I assume there are still a few events before I go back, a few more conversations with the elves but at this point - in addition to everything else I've said - I want revenge.

Usually, when I react emotionally to something, I calm down with some time and am ready to take a more moderate approach, but in this case - with MCs parents, Kaija & the Templars, the more I think about it, the angrier I am. (And no, it would make no difference if it was the CIA or FBI or Sicilian Mafia).

 

[Maviarab]

I'll have to try more paths later. I haven't done any where Kaija has low love points, which I suspect is what your referring to.

On that path, if she honestly doesn't actually have romantic feelings for you, I can see why more people would give her the boot.

No need to play other paths. On your lovey dovey path....my statement was not option but fact. She still lies to you daily and directly to your face. On the love you path.

Now folk can try and deny this and bury their heads in the sand all they like, doesn't change the facts of the matter...

 

[e6mill]

"Never" is a very strong absolute. It's not particularly likely and it takes a lot of work and probably therapy, but for some couples trust can recover.

If you can't trust someone who rides a motorcycle into a raging gunbattle for you then IMO that's on you.

 

[TrixRabbit]

"Never" is a very strong absolute. It's not particularly likely and it takes a lot of work and probably therapy, but for some couples trust can recover.

I also find it weird that people keep comparing Kaija's dishonesty with cheating. To my knowledge, there's no indication she was with any other partners during your relationship. Yes, I realize you're making a comparison, but to me dishonesty about essentially your job is a lot less hurtful than dishonesty about your relationship fidelity.

I didn't say she was cheating in that sense, but that it was on par with it - as bad as cheating - a similar crime against MC and their relationship. I mean she knew (roughly) where your father was the whole time, and said nothing.

 

[HornyyPussy]

No need to play other paths. On your lovey dovey path....my statement was not option but fact. She still lies to you daily and directly to your face. On the love you path.

Now folk can try and deny this and bury their heads in the sand all they like, doesn't change the facts of the matter...

You know I have the utmost respect for you Mavi but here I think you're wrong (maybe not in facts but in spirit). It was a job for at first then she fell in love with the MC but she still had her orders. She was in a no win situation. Obviously I have no problem with her story. The whole "she's cheating" part is just ridiculous though (I know you didn't say that )

 

[HornyyPussy]

I didn't say she was cheating in that sense, but that it was on par with it - as bad as cheating - a similar crime against MC and their relationship. I mean she knew (roughly) where your father was the whole time, and said nothing.

Not even close to being similar but you do you.

 

[TrixRabbit]

Not even close to being similar but you do you.

To me it is an equal betrayal of trust

 

[HornyyPussy]

To me it is an equal betrayal of trust

I understood that and I think you're dead wrong.

 

[xapican]

Fair point indeed...but then, no one ever asked to be born, let alone to those particular parents. Nothing wrong with not being interested in your 'roots' or wanting to move away from your 'background', especially if it's less than savory.

Even more so here, we (MC) were not even aware of our roots lol.

We all aren't IRL, we just know what was told us and what we lived, and that is even conditioned by our moral values, and interpretation.
I don't think there is a culprit, this story (and Ceo did point it out iirc) is about how you overcome and do what you must in order to preseve the world you build and is threatend.

 

[Rehwyn]

No need to play other paths. On your lovey dovey path....my statement was not option but fact. She still lies to you daily and directly to your face. On the love you path.

Now folk can try and deny this and bury their heads in the sand all they like, doesn't change the facts of the matter...

I didn't say she was cheating in that sense, but that it was on par with it - as bad as cheating - a similar crime against MC and their relationship. I mean she knew (roughly) where your father was the whole time, and said nothing.

I think this is just more evidence that I see things in shades of grey a bit more.

Yes, she repeatedly lied to MC about her job for years. But, at least on the love path, many other things were true. If she kissed MC, had sex with MC, or told MC she loved him, it's because she wanted to. So those acts are truthful in isolation.

As I said before, removing the lies would leave gaps and probably leave even the honest parts fragile and unstable. It can be difficult to trust again and leave people wondering if anything was real, as you've said. But especially if MC can empathize with Kaija being stuck between a rock and a hard place and can forgive the lying about her job, the remaining "real" parts of the relationship can potentially be saved if trust is gradually restored.

 

[Maviarab]

As I said before, removing the lies would leave gaps and probably leave even the honest parts fragile and unstable. It can be difficult to trust again and leave people wondering if anything was real, as you've said. But especially if MC can empathize with Kaija being stuck between a rock and a hard place and can forgive the lying about her job, the remaining "real" parts of the relationship can potentially be saved as trust is restored.

Potentially...I agree....extremely unlikely (as real life stats prove)...but potentially yes. Even less likely in a high stress areas of your life with other things happening around you, as is the case in this story. But potentially...

Now, if they could ignore all this shit going on around them, move to a log cabin the mountains and be at peace with the world and themselves, perhaps even more potential to work it out yes I would agree. That's not happening though.

 

[fishbrain]

I take it .4 was just bugfixes?

 

[Rehwyn]

Potentially...I agree....extremely unlikely (as real life stats prove)...but potentially yes. Even less likely in a high stress areas of your life with other things happening around you, as is the case in this story. But potentially...

Now, if they could ignore all this shit going on around them, move to a log cabin the mountains and be at peace with the world and themselves, perhaps even more potential to work it out yes I would agree. That's not happening though.

Haha, true. A potential inter-realm war on the horizon isn't exactly the ideal circumstances for a couples therapy retreat.

On the other hand, maybe the urgency of their situation accelerates things. The threat of dying tomorrow can sometimes put things in perspective.

Edit: On the Kaija love path, I have to imagine abandoning her mission, ignoring a direct order, and riding a motorcycle into a hail of bullets to save your ass has to be worth at least, I dunno, 10 therapy sessions of trust rebuilding?

 

[Maviarab]

I take it .4 was just bugfixes?

Yes.

 

[TrixRabbit]

As I said before, removing the lies would leave gaps and probably leave even the honest parts fragile and unstable. It can be difficult to trust again and leave people wondering if anything was real, as you've said. But especially if MC can empathize with Kaija being stuck between a rock and a hard place and can forgive the lying about her job, the remaining "real" parts of the relationship can potentially be saved if trust is gradually restored.

Like I said, the only way she could even start on the path of rebuilding trust would have been to immediately cut all ties with the Templars - no more meetings, no more missions, no more “business trips” not a single phone call - ever. Otherwise I have to assume that her first loyalty is still to them and she’s probably still lying about stuff and keeping secrets.

 

[xapican]

I'll have to try more paths later. I haven't done any where Kaija has low love points, which I suspect is what your referring to.

I think, he is refering to the Kaija love path.
Oh another point to consider, and not meant as an attack to anyone, we all talk about Kaijas dishonesty, but not about ours (MC) i want to know how much of the players here did a Kaija Monogamous path, or do the same for the other girls (meaning not getting the Hot scenes spread trough out this chapter)

 

[yossa999]

Potentially...I agree....extremely unlikely (as real life stats prove)...but potentially yes. Even less likely in a high stress areas of your life with other things happening around you, as is the case in this story. But potentially...

Now, if they could ignore all this shit going on around them, move to a log cabin the mountains and be at peace with the world and themselves, perhaps even more potential to work it out yes I would agree. That's not happening though.

Haha, sometimes the worst blackmail/corruption games offer you a choice - don't give in to blackmail, tell the blackmailer to fuck off, especially since in most cases, what the blackmailer threatens you with is complete nonsense. You choose not to give in to blackmail and immediately get a happy ending with a nice house, kids and a dog - and the "game over" across the screen.

So yeah, moving into a cabin in the mountains and sorting things out would be the best choice for those who want to follow Kaija's love path. But then it would probably be a completely different game, I guess. Now we have Mr and Mrs Smith, or True Lies case.

 

[Maviarab]

Like I said, the only way she could even start on the path of rebuilding trust would have been to immediately cut all ties with the Templars - no more meetings, no more missions, no more “business trips” not a single phone call - ever. Otherwise I have to assume that her first loyalty is still to them and she’s probably still lying about stuff and keeping secrets.

Well, again, talking facts and not opinions or personal views, on the 'love path'...when asked directly who/what comes first, she waivers and doesn't give you a straight answer. Sure, she waivers, so unlike the other paths, she does not say the Templars come first...but even on this path, she does not directly say you either.

The only one thing where I will give Kaija any credit is (yes folks, save this post lmao) is that I see her much like many jedi in Star Wars. There is a reason they pick them young...and it has nothing at all to do with training. It's about control...easier to indoctrinate them to their beliefs and system the younger they are. The jedi are really no better than the sith.

Templars, it's telling particularly on the non-Kaija love paths how she vehemently recites the Templar code etc. She is completely brainwashed....only in the love path where she waivers in answering you do I think she actually starts to understand this herself. This is where I feel her redemption will be, she will see the Templars for what they are. Sure, fighting the good fight, keeping hellspawn at bay blah blah...but by indoctrinating their members to their beliefs to enact orders without question.

I think, he is refering to the Kaija love path.
Oh another point to consider, and not meant as an attack to anyone, we all talk about Kaijas dishonesty, but not about ours (MC) i want to know how much of the players here did a Kaija Monogamous path, or do the same for the other girls (meaning not getting the Hot scenes spread trough out this chapter)

On all my paths I am monogamous bar one. I have a number of 'Kaija saves' where I will do different things and yes on one of these saves, I cheated with Finn (as let us be honest, as you are alluding to, even if you take the option in the Templar hall to work together for now, you are effectively still together).

So yes, to sum up, I dislike Kaija, however, she is a fantasticly written character (as all this discourse proves how well she is written). All the other LI I have one save for...I have a save where all i do is flirt and hook up with randoms.....Kaija, I have 5 different saves for, purely because I want to see how things develop regarding the different consequences. So have a Kaija LI save, Kaija LI save where I will side with Elves, Kaija non-commital and slept with Finn and Anaiss (sorry...I love her too much rofl)...