VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[xapican]

The disobediance to direct orders does nothing to oaths of religiuos fanatics.

They aren't, neither in IRL nor in this AVN.

 

[xapican]

I wish we could get the option to be an operative for Medb. I mean, MC could come back, say he took some time to calm down and forgives everyone, then stroll right into Templar HQ and start planting bugs (or bombs if that's the assignment).

You can, do that, you can side with the Alfar, it is just not implemented yet.

 

[TrixRabbit]

You can, do that, you can side with the Alfar, it is just not implemented yet.

Cool! I'll take that one - better than siding with the hell spawn.

 

[Wolfram99]

They aren't, neither in IRL nor in this AVN.

Keeping shit pertaining to the foundation of your relationship, and then use your "oaths" as a defense?
To those who do not know of these oaths they are no more than empty words.
Can you be sure that her oaths are what she says they are?
What if the oath permits a partial uncovering of its contents under duress?

 

[Rehwyn]

She chose the route with a big ass win. She chose to follow her oath which she follows to a T.
So in every route she is way more a templar than an ordinary human/Girlfriend.
The disobediance to direct orders does nothing to oaths of religiuos fanatics.

That's really only a "big ass win" if her relationship with MC is fake and holds no value to her.

If the feelings are genuine, choosing to follow her Templar oath means lying to MC and potentially losing a relationship she cares about. And choosing to break that oath and reveal everything to MC risks losing her place in the Templars and sense of purpose (as a defender of humanity). Either of these are a net loss if she actually cares about both, and at least on her love path there's ample evidence she does care about both.

Considering her oath to the Templars was in place well before a potential romantic relationship with the MC, it really shouldn't be surprising that it took precedence early on and it's only as the relationship started and grew that the sense of conflict became greater and greater. That doesn't excuse it of course, but it shouldn't be shocking or necessarily indicative of how she currently values them.

 

[TrixRabbit]

If the feelings are genuine, choosing to follow her Templar oath means lying to MC and potentially losing a relationship she cares about. And choosing to break that oath and reveal everything to MC risks losing her place in the Templars and sense of purpose (as a defender of humanity). Either of these are a net loss if she actually cares about both, and at least on her love path there's ample evidence she does care about both.

But at least in my book, she can't have both - could never have had both if she was an honest person. So in effect she chose the templars every single day. I wish we'd gotten a chance to let her make one final choice, in black and white - choose one or the other, but we didn't get that chance so we just had to assume based on her actions.

 

[Wolfram99]

the sense of conflict became greater and greater.

And yet it wasn't really her who uncovered what she is, if not for the attempt on MC's life she would happily follow her oaths until the end of times.

losing a relationship she cares about

She wants to sit on two different chairs at once.
The moment she realised that what she is doing is wrong, she should have taken a stance.
She's a big girl, she kills people for a living.

 

[justin.case]

Who will be the part of threesome? I don't see anyone being close to that idea. Or would it be just 2 randoms with MC?

necessarily indicative of how she currently values them.

You can find indications her loyalty to Templars never waiver even on the love path. I'll probably be harsher than Kaija haters here but her loyalty does not waiver at all, if she is in love with MC, he gains some priority in her decisions but it does not change her views on Templars. You can get that when she talks about the order or Templars. She says Steroid Kevin's heart at the right place. She says they'd never ask me to kill innocents, that means she'd kill anyone if she is ordered to without questioning their innocence. She says we are the good guys, over and over again and so on. You can find many more if you look for it. So, her stance towards Templars does not budge at all at either of the paths, only thing that changes how much she cares MC.

 

[HornyyPussy]

She chose the route with a big ass win. She chose to follow her oath which she follows to a T.
So in every route she is way more a templar than an ordinary human/Girlfriend.
The disobediance to direct orders does nothing to oaths of religiuos fanatics.

Agree to STRONGLY disagree with that.

 

[HornyyPussy]

I have a playthrough where I start out with the intention of staying loyal to Kaija and I am in love with her. (In fact, this was my very first time through) I was grateful for the rescue but my eyes were opened during the conversation with MC's mom, sister and Kaija at the dinner table. That conversation, for me, becomes confrontational, with MC wondering if Kaija ever really cared about him. Later, at the Templar base, when Linnae tells them to talk it out, Kaija is the one who becomes confrontational until MC sows the seed of doubt about the role she has played. In that version of the (my) story MC tells her they need to take a step back. In other words, he dumps her. I made up my mind she'll need to regain MC's trust to be a friend and ally but the romance is over and MC moves on.

This is one of those rare AVN's where I feel compelled to do multiple playthoughs because it is so well written and the choices actually make a huge difference. Of course, I now have many playthroughs, including one where I forgive Kaija and we stay together. I just enjoy playing Kaija hater in this thread...

 

[xapican]

Keeping shit pertaining to the foundation of your relationship, and then use your "oaths" as a defense?
To those who do not know of these oaths they are no more than empty words.
Can you be sure that her oaths are what she says they are?
What if the oath permits a partial uncovering of its contents under duress?

You said "Religious fanatics" and I said the Knight Templar Order never was Religious, IRL(History) nor in this Novel.
Not talking about Kaija, and her oaths, and to put it in other light,
You know the Oath of Hippocrates ? (don't know how it is called in english) the oath of the medics ? what you are saying I understand as if your Girlfriend helped someone who is your enemy, you confront her and she answers with the oath, It is the same principle.

 

[motseer]

View attachment 4250222
View attachment 4250225

Right back atcha...

 

[Wolfram99]

if your Girlfriend helped someone who is your enemy, you confront her and she answers with the oath, It is the same principle.

If a doctor fixes someone up that is my mortal enemy, and the hostilities will not end until either of one of us becomes incapable of continuing the feud. Then having a positive relationship with the doctor is not possible.

 

[Rehwyn]

But at least in my book, she can't have both - could never have had both if she was an honest person. So in effect she chose the templars every single day. I wish we'd gotten a chance to let her make one final choice, in black and white - choose one or the other, but we didn't get that chance so we just had to assume based on her actions.

I get your perspective, but have to disagree. At least on the love path, early on there was less conflict because all she originally accepted was to stick close to you as a friend (which she already was since childhood). If she was for example an NSA analyst, I'd hardly expect her to be sharing state secrets with her friend. Obviously things are a bit different here since the secrets are more immediately relevant and wrapped up with lies rather than just omissions, but the premise is similar.

The romantic feelings developed afterward, and as we discussed earlier it's unlikely the Templars would have accepted reassigning her to a different task if she tried to separate herself from MC and those feelings. If those romantic feelings are genuine and not just following orders, it'd be easy to justify them to herself as separate from the decision to hide the Templars themselves from MC.

As for making a final choice, it wouldn't surprise me if something like that is upcoming now that MC has spent time with the elves and potentially had someone they cared about (as a friend or otherwise) killed by the Templars.

And yet it wasn't really her who uncovered what she is, if not for the attempt on MC's life she would happily follow her oaths until the end of times.

Possibly, but we can't really know for certain. I can see potential other triggers that could have forced a realization, like MC proposing or something. It's all speculative of course.

She wants to sit on two different chairs at once.
The moment she realised that what she is doing is wrong, she should have taken a stance.
She's a big girl, she kills people for a living.

Yes, she did want to keep both going in the status quo as she admits on the love path. The longer the lie went on, the harder it became to come clean because of fear that MC wouldn't forgive her. Obviously that doesn't excuse it, but it's a feeling I can understand.

As for killing people for a living, that's a vastly different skill set then emotional intelligence and relationship communication, heh.

 

[justin.case]

Possibly, but we can't really know for certain. I can see potential other triggers that could have forced a realization, like MC proposing or something. It's all speculative of course.

I feel like a friend that no one listens. Came for Kaija's help this time though, we do know. At the beginning of the game, she thinks to herself that she needs to put an end to the the lies and says it can't go like this forever. So, I think it's safe to assume she was about to do something. Though, we can't know what. She might have dump MC for Templars.

If those romantic feelings are genuine and not just following orders, it'd be easy to justify them as separate from the decision to hide the Templars themselves from MC.

Whether or not genuine, as she stated she chose that way because it was easier for her. Best of both worlds, as she stated. So, even if she was feeling something genuine she was there because of her mission.

 

[Rehwyn]

I feel like a friend that no one listens. Came for Kaija's help this time though, we do know. At the beginning of the game, she thinks to herself that she needs to put an end to the the lies and says it can go like this forever. So, I think it's safe to assume she was about to do something. Though, we can't know what. She might have dump MC for Templars.

Oh right! Thanks, I had actually forgotten about that early line. It's been a while since I've played the beginning parts of the game.

Edit:

Whether or not genuine, as she stated she chose that way because it was easier for her. Best of both worlds, as she stated. So, even if she was feeling something genuine she was there because of her mission.

True, but people can choose to do something for multiple reasons. For example, let's hypothetically say she was assigned to a mission in a foreign country for 3 years and she comes to love the people, culture, and location. Yes, the original reason she was there was the mission, but after 3 years perhaps she wants to stay for other reasons.

That's essentially how I see her assignment with MC. On her love path, she initially is there because he's a friend and because of her mission, but later on perhaps the relationship and her affection for MC is actually the biggest reason she'd want to stay, even if it's still her mission too.

 

[Wolfram99]

I feel like a friend that no one listens. Came for Kaija's help this time though, we do know. At the beginning of the game, she thinks to herself that she needs to put an end to the the lies and says it can go like this forever. So, I think it's safe to assume she was about to do something. Though, we can't know what. She might have dump MC for Templars.

We dont know if she would actually reveal that the start of the relationship was fake, just telling that she is a member of a secret organization would lift 99% of her internal conflict and be an easy way out.

 

[justin.case]

We dont know if she would actually reveal that the start of the relationship was fake, just telling that she is a member of a secret organization would lift 99% of her internal conflict and be an easy way out.

But she can't stay at there when she mentions that. It basically downhill from there and one way or another would end up like the talk in the game. Though, we do not know which path she would choose. She might have decided, a personal life is not a thing for Templars and break up with MC then ask reassignment. After all, her mentor Linnae chose that path. All in all, any action would have been better for her. If she chose break up with MC early on, then when shit hit the fan came to save MC i.e. after Paul's death, then explained everything. So basically almost same as love path but broke up with MC before the events, I'd probably go for forgive, forget, reconcile path and even would be okay with a relationship if she wants it.

 

[xapican]

killed by the Templars

It is assumed, but that is a plot turn, and till next few chapters there is no evidence they did.

 

[Wolfram99]

But she can't stay at there when she mentions that. It basically downhill from there and one way or another would end up like the talk in the game. Though, we do not know which path she would choose. She might have decided, a personal life is not a thing for Templars and break up with MC then ask reassignment. After all, her mentor Linnae chose that path. All in all, any action would have been better for her. If she chose break up with MC early on, then when shit hit the fan came to save MC i.e. after Paul's death, then explained everything. So basically almost same as love path but broke up with MC before the events, I'd probably go for forgive, forget, reconcile path and even would be okay with a relationship if she wants it.

Any action would have been better than inaction, and thats why she is disliked so heavily by me.
Steph from LoF atleast had the decency to fuck off by herself.