VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

4.50 star(s) 51 Votes

Wolfram99

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Aug 20, 2023
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The honorable Wolfram has raised two good points.

1. They certainly didn't protect him emotionally by letting Kaija get close to their son and entering a serious relationship even though she didn't love him.
Well, do we actually know if the parents knew that it was fake all along? To me the parents were blissfully ignorant to the Kaija's motivations of being in a relationship with MC. They probably hoped that she actually caught the love bug for their son, so they didn't want to startle that nest with questions of "wtf are you doing with our son" since that would lead to uncovering of way more shit than they want to handle, and in their minds they hope/believe that the relationship is actually "natural"
 

Grumpy Old Aussie

Engaged Member
May 6, 2023
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Well, do we actually know if the parents knew that it was fake all along? To me the parents were blissfully ignorant to the Kaija's motivations of being in a relationship with MC. They probably hoped that she actually caught the love bug for their son, so they didn't want to startle that nest with questions of "wtf are you doing with our son" since that would lead to uncovering of way more shit than they want to handle, and in their minds they hope/believe that the relationship is actually "natural"
Will stop making sense! Shit, now I have to go away and have a think about it. Don't you have icicles to knock down from the ceiling or something :p :ROFLMAO:
 

TrixRabbit

Newbie
Feb 11, 2024
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None of these questions change the fact that from the MC's perspective - his parents lied about many, many things and cannot be trusted. One lie more or less doesn't change that (especially since there is still more stuff they are hiding).
 

TrixRabbit

Newbie
Feb 11, 2024
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Also, this may just be me being paranoid now but ... in CH1 - Dude chases Kajia and knocks her down and MC shoots him (I assume we all shot him ... dunno). Her initial reaction and second reaction are very different. She initially says "OMG ... what did you do?" and then MC says something like "What do you mean, you killed all those other guys" and then her tone seems to change to something more like ... "well but I'm trained for it, you shouldn't have to do it." Anyone think something was up there (beyond what was on the surface)? Was that dude supposed to live for some reason? Was he an asset for someone? Or maybe MC just isn't supposed to shed blood or things will happen? ... Don't know, could be looking for conspiracies where there's nothing now but ... ?
 
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Wolfram99

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Aug 20, 2023
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Also, this may just be me being paranoid now but ... in CH1 - Dude chases Kajia and knocks her down and MC shoots him (I assume we all shot him ... dunno). Her initial reaction and second reaction are very different. She initially says "OMG ... what did you do?" and then MC says something like "What do you mean, you killed all those other guys" and then her tone seems to change to something more like ... "well but I'm trained for it, you shouldn't have to do it." Anyone think something was up there (beyond what was on the surface)? Was that dude supposed to live for some reason? Was he an asset for someone? Or maybe MC just isn't supposed to shed blood or things will happen? ... Don't know, could be looking for conspiracies where there's nothing now but ... ?
I would say that the Kaija has taken the protector role in the relationship, so she thinks she should handle all the dirty work. So her seeing her BF actually murder someone is like watching her BF lose his innocence.
 
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TrixRabbit

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Feb 11, 2024
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I would say that the Kaija has taken the protector role in the relationship, so she thinks she should handle all the dirty work. So her seeing her BF actually murder someone is like watching her BF lose his innocence.
Don't know. It might be that, it might be nothing ... just something to bear in mind I guess because it's not like there's hard proof of anything, or can get any unless something else happens. She just seems to catch herself and change her tone really quickly.
 

ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
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I think, he is refering to the Kaija love path.
Oh another point to consider, and not meant as an attack to anyone, we all talk about Kaijas dishonesty, but not about ours (MC) i want to know how much of the players here did a Kaija Monogamous path, or do the same for the other girls (meaning not getting the Hot scenes spread trough out this chapter)
I have three save paths for the game, all monogamous. My "main" path went for Kaija since I generally try to accept it when an AVN sticks us with a starting SO. There's obviously a lot of work that needs to be done, but I'm willing to give Kaija a second chance since she was caught in something of a no-win scenario (on the love path, anyway). The other paths are for Fiona (my favorite thus far) and Elea (likeable, but just not clicking for me).

While their paths have been slow, they're deliberate and 'emotional' enough that it feels natural to focus on only one girl at a time. Medb is interesting as a frenemy, but not someone I have any desire to romance, and none of the side-girls have been particularly appealing, either. So this is one of the easier AVNs to maintain monogamous paths in.


Yeah, I think one thing this game does well is create groups that aren't monolithically good or evil. The Templars arguably do some good things, but they also essentially indoctrinate people from when they are children. I think that's another reason I'm okay with forgiving Kaija; I know how hard it can be to break free of that indoctrination. And as you said, on the love path there's early signs that she's gaining some clarity there.

My ideal route I think with Kaija would be a neutral MC that eventually convinces Kaija to join him there, and the two of them get the Templars and Elves to collectively pull their heads out of their ass to address the third-party threat.
Eh, I'm less keen on the presentation so far. Neither group is monolithically good or evil, but that's because both are pretty monolithically neutral. The Templars talk a big game about protecting humanity, but they provide zero details and seem hopelessly incompetent. The Alfar, meanwhile, are litigious xenophobes with a chip on their shoulder who do everything Kari assured us they wouldn't.

Both groups seem to be entirely focused on protecting their own nebulous interests to the exclusion of all else. Any action they take, individually or as a group, is either tied up with those interests, or is a whim by one of the members that costs them nothing. The closest we've seen to a "moral" decisions from any of them is Kaija helping Medb's group fight off the hellspawn - and even that is potentially part of her job! If we had a better understanding of their goals (or the threats they face), we could potentially have an "ends vs means" debate about their actions, but we do not.

We have seen a variety of attitudes and temperaments from the members of each group, so in that sense I agree they aren't monolithic. But as far as their "alignment," they've been pretty one-note.


I generally take the perspective that alternate paths aren't canon unless you're on that path, since motives and whatnot can be so different. In my mind, the Kaija that saves you because she's ordered to is a different person than the one that abandons her mission to save you. They are "alternate universe" versions of each other.

So yeah, my perspective is from a Kaija love path. It's the path on which the decision of whether or not to forgive her matters the most.
Kaija is a reflection of the player's attitude towards her. By wanting to forgive her, Kaija is retroactively made worthy of that forgiveness. By wanting to reject her, Kaija is retroactively made deserving of that castigation.

It's a neat trick, but it does make debates about her motivations somewhat circular. :(


2. I concede to your word soup point in that she may have obeyed the letter of the law, but she certainly didn't obey the spirit of the law. Jumping in to that relationship was only going to end one way for the MC emotionally.
Very true, but like most emotionally-charged matters, logic wasn't involved.

We know Kaija was a genuine childhood friend to the MC so it's not hard to how she could she resolve to keep things platonic while protecting him, only to get caught up in a growing mutual romantic attraction as the two spent more and more time togeher. It wasn't a single conscious decision, it was a string of intuitive decisions that eventually led to a crisis - one that didn't have an acceptable solution. She can't explain her reservations without spilling the beans (which still might not solve the problem since the MC's family ARE the Templars), and given the Council's attitude previously it's not like they'd change her duties she asked them for a reprieve. Even trying to bury her feelings would be difficult since the MC would want to know why she was suddenly so guarded around him.

Frankly, it's no wonder Kaija was sending mixed signals to the MC at the start of the game. (On the love path, anyway. On the hate path it's still not surprising, but it's more a case of Kaija being unable keep her personal disinterest from bleeding into her role as loving girlfriend.)
 
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Rehwyn

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Apr 10, 2024
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On all the paths she did this because it was, quote, easier.
Minor quibble here, to actually quote the bit related to "easier":
MC: "Did you get into a relationship with me on purpose? Because it made your job easier?"
Kaija: "No! If that had been my intention, I could have saved myself the trouble with the Council. It's literally what they asked me to do."
Kaija: "The situation had developed its own dynamics. Before I really realized it, we both were a thing. It was easy. The best from both worlds."
So to me it seems it's not so much that she started a relationship to make things easier, just that once one did develop organically, it was easy to continue on with both it and her job, at least for a while.

I think others have already covered the other main things I'd mention. Namely, that starting a relationship wasn't against her orders, just beyond their revised scope and that her pre-existing childhood friendship likely primed her for a potential emotional compromise from the start. I pretty much guarantee that at least some members of Templar command hoped a relationship would start even if it was no longer part of her orders.
I have been talking about Kaija with a good friend I recently converted to Neverwhere. He was an ex-operative and disgreed that Kaija should have come clean earlier. Having been ex-military myself and worked for the government where secrets were concerned. I do concede and see the point re-Kaija and her work secrets. I agree with Mav who pointed out Steph in LOF was tied up with her job, and its a very tough situation. Hence why Steph was redeemed later in the story.
Not being ex-operative or ex-military myself, it's nice to hear that my understanding of this aspect were at least reasonably on the mark. I only deal with financial secrets so it's different I'm sure, but there is definitely business and financial secrets I have an ethical obligation to keep, even from people like my wife. So I can empathize with others in similar situations but with even higher stakes.
 
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Wolfram99

Member
Aug 20, 2023
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Kaija is a reflection of the player's attitude towards her. By wanting to forgive her, Kaija is retroactively made worthy of that forgiveness. By wanting to reject her, Kaija is retroactively made deserving of that castigation.

It's a neat trick, but it does make debates about her motivations somewhat circular. :(
Revisionist history at its finest
 
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Rehwyn

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Apr 10, 2024
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Revisionist history at its finest
A smaller form of this trick is used in essentially every AVN I've played, but usually only when it comes to the present and moving forward.

If the player is romantically interested in a LI and makes choices reflective of that, the LI usually is also interested in MC. The opposite is often also true. It's less often that LIs have unrequited crushes if the player hasn't indicated interest.

The difference here is that the choices change aspects of Kaija's history with MC going back to before the start of the game. If you make choices that indicate MC actually cares for Kaija, her history is set to be more deserving of that affection compared to if your choices indicate that MC does not love her.

I suspect the decision to do this is because the player starts with her as a girlfriend, as compared to the other LIs which are all "forward looking". Since you didn't have a choice whether or not to start anything with Kaija originally, the devs instead give you some agency to determine to nature of the relationship so far.

They probably could have written her to be more forgivable on all the paths and not just ones where the MC loves her. But then some players might feel like assholes for breaking up with her to pursue the other LIs instead of her. :KEK:
 
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TrixRabbit

Newbie
Feb 11, 2024
89
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I have three save paths for the game, all monogamous. My "main" path went for Kaija since I generally try to accept it when an AVN sticks us with a starting SO. There's obviously a lot of work that needs to be done, but I'm willing to give Kaija a second chance since she was caught in something of a no-win scenario (on the love path, anyway). The other paths are for Fiona (my favorite thus far) and Elea (likeable, but just not clicking for me).
I'm almost always monogamous. I get shit from people for trying to be monogamous in harem games but I haven't figured out who I want to be monogamous WITH in this game. It's not Kajia, I thought it might be Finn ... but no .. so now I'm just not sure. Will probably start from scratch again once I figure that one out.
 

TrixRabbit

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Feb 11, 2024
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I think others have already covered the other main things I'd mention. Namely, that starting a relationship wasn't against her orders, just beyond their revised scope and that her pre-existing childhood friendship likely primed her for a potential emotional compromise from the start. I pretty much guarantee that at least some members of Templar command hoped a relationship would start even if it was no longer part of her orders.
There are basically two questions here and based on the answers, one of three things is true:

1) Did Kajia feel anything for MC?
2) Did she report it to her handler(s)?

If she felt something she was compromised, if she didn't report it then she isn't very professional or very well trained.

If she felt something and did report it and they left her in the field, then the organization is not very professional. Even if they like MC and would be inclined to be happy for them - you don't leave someone with emotional entanglements in the field, it clouds their judgement. (You also don't pull a protection detail off of an asset and send them on other missions).

If she didn't feel anything, whether she reported that or not, then she is a professional working for a professional organization (except for the part about pulling someone's protection detail and sending them on a coffee run.)
 

Rehwyn

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Apr 10, 2024
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There are basically two questions here and based on the answers, one of three things is true:

1) Did Kajia feel anything for MC?
2) Did she report it to her handler(s)?

If she felt something she was compromised, if she didn't report it then she isn't very professional or very well trained.

If she felt something and did report it and they left her in the field, then the organization is not very professional. Even if they like MC and would be inclined to be happy for them - you don't leave someone with emotional entanglements in the field, it clouds their judgement. (You also don't pull a protection detail off of an asset and send them on other missions).

If she didn't feel anything, whether she reported that or not, then she is a professional working for a professional organization (except for the part about pulling someone's protection detail and sending them on a coffee run.)
On the Kaija love path, most indications are that Kaija does feel something for MC. So I'm definitely of the opinion that she's emotionally compromised from a professional perspective on that path.

I'm pretty sure we don't know whether or not Kaija reported this to the Templars as soon as she realized it or not. She definitely would be in a bit of an unusual situation though regardless, since I doubt very many real-life organizations would consider ordering an operative to start a romantic relationship with a childhood friend for protective detail in the first place since, the morality of it aside, it'd carry a high risk of emotional compromise in the future.

Once those orders are altered and feelings started developing regardless, it also would create the perspective that there's probably no point in reporting it always, since the Council probably sees it as a positive and will encourage her to continue. And if that's the case and reporting it would accomplish nothing, would reporting it and then being ordered to continue it tarnish the developing organic feelings? I could see how it'd look that way to Kaija. If she realizes she's going to end up with romantic feelings anyways, maybe she thought she'd do it on her own terms.

And of course, once things developed further and they were even living together, the Templars would have to be blind not to see Kaija as potentially emotionally compromised. But they don't pull her from that protective assignment even then (except to brilliantly send her in unrelated missions), which likely validates that they wouldn't have pulled her if Kaija reported anything earlier.

Kaija definitely has some guilt here, but these factors (among others you mentioned) definitely make the Templars look very unprofessional in this matter and, in my opinion, responsible for the majority of the emotional pain MC feels as a result. Even on my Kaija love path, my MC is at best neutral to the Templars as a whole, and unhappy with most the Council (especially Statinator. Fuck that guy. :KEK: )
 
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4.50 star(s) 51 Votes