Mod Ren'Py Abandoned Time For Dragons - Defiler Wings: Deranged Dragon Mod [29-07-2020] [Jman]

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Jman9

Engaged Member
Jul 17, 2019
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So, other than the archmage, which only shows up if you do things the right (or wrong) way when it comes to infiltrating the kingdom, are there any other "important" enemies that are weak to sound damage?
Maybe the Dark Sister and Efreets, to some extent.

I guess I could make the Golem and Gargoyles weak to sound, sounds thematic enough.

Because I want to get heads that give digging, and I usually optimize my dragon to deal with opponents with certain weaknesses (acid, fire, magic) and I wanna know if evolving three steel heads is a good idea or not.
Digging can be had from paws as well. Anyway, steel heads are less about damage and more about protection. Sound is the third or fourth most commonly resisted damage type, so not ideal for offense.
 
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PariahLies

Member
Dec 21, 2018
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Physical resistance is only really going to help you in common/easy fights for the most part anyway. The only actually hard/boss fights I know of that use physical to damage you is the dwarven champ and the pheonix so having a lot of steel heads is only really useful for them, along with magic and lightning heads for the champ(maybe acid for another dwarven related enemy if you don't have the minions for it), and fire and frost heads for the pheonix. Fire/magic/frost heads are what's going to be needed for a certain demon related battle, and other than those I say you can beat basically every other encounter with basically any head combination(assuming you have the health to tank for a bit). I can imagine physical resistance being useful for the final battle against the kingdom but I haven't actually gotten to that yet so I can't say for certain.

As a side note, I feel like certain parts need to scale with your size or at least keep up with it instead of being downgraded in their value as you get bigger. Wings and paws(might benefit from actually being called 'limbs') for example. I don't think your wings stay the same size as you get bigger so them losing their ability to keep you in the sky and take you off the ground shouldn't be all that affected, I can understand and like the bonusses from having more wings but generally the depictions of gigantic dragons have equally as gigantic wings and most of the time only a single pair. On the paws side, short paws only ever always giving +40 health becomes less and less useful/valueble as you become bigger, same goes for attack paws, the total value/worth of amount the give to you dragon's overall attack is less and less when your paws would realistically become even bigger and deadlier/more defensive(in the case of short) the bigger you got. If the cost of your size growth was modulated by whether or not you have wings or paws as well as the amount of them then their scaling in usefulness and value would be worth it. I won't argue for the removal or lowering of the amount of wings or paws you can have, but having more of them while they scale would incur greater costs to the player's size growth so they'll have to weigh in the pros and cons of having more vs being efficient with the parts. I haven't thought of how part usefulness would scale for heads but it may be more of the same sort of direction of thought.
 
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Jman9

Engaged Member
Jul 17, 2019
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I mean Jman, soo bad he doesn't have one.
What would you do with one? :p

Old Huntsman was in this year on own discord Mist of Eternal Rome.
Indeed, it appears there's a MER discord that's... largely not about MER? o_O And Old Huntsman is quite alive if not terribly kicking. :p

Physical resistance is only really going to help you in common/easy fights for the most part anyway.
Sure, but you run into those a lot. And the steel head is almost custom-tailored for the big fights with the King and the Archmage.

The only actually hard/boss fights I know of that use physical to damage you is the dwarven champ and the pheonix
The Phoenix is physical? o_O Guess I need to go and take another look at the critter...

Don't treants also do physical damage? Not that they're terribly hard or anything.

you can beat basically every other encounter with basically any head combination(assuming you have the health to tank for a bit).
That's a sizeable assumption. And do you mean solo, or with minions? Because a lone mid-sized dragon isn't going to be very tanky.

Anyway, minions will get nerfed and elements will become a little more specialised.

I can imagine physical resistance being useful for the final battle against the kingdom but I haven't actually gotten to that yet so I can't say for certain.
I don't think it's terribly different there. The Final Battle is more of an endurance contest if you're not relying on the Army. I have some small plans to make it a little harder than it currently is, like letting your current knight level up (or pick a random max-level knight if you lack one) and take a whack at you.

I feel like certain parts need to scale with your size or at least keep up with it instead of being downgraded in their value as you get bigger.
While you're right from a strictly simulationist POV, this would lead to further stat inflation. The dragon is perfectly capable of soloing a lot of fights as it is right now. The size limit is more about how many body parts you can have, not their size. You grow bigger, you grow more paws instead of bigger paws, etc.

The end result would be either boosting the dragon a lot, if the number of e.g. wings stays the same, or taking away some player choice if size upgrades always come with wing upgrades. I don't think this would be good for gameplay.

You can also think of four wings as a single pair of four-layered wings. You grow, you must strengthen your wings more than merely an increase to the surface area proportional to your size increase. The square-cube law and all that.

I could make another cosmetic option for 'single-winged' vs 'multi-winged' dragons, like there are single- and multi-headed dragons, but I'd rather implement new content instead of creating endless cosmetic options.
 

PariahLies

Member
Dec 21, 2018
128
58
The Phoenix is physical? o_O Guess I need to go and take another look at the critter...

Don't treants also do physical damage? Not that they're terribly hard or anything.
Physical/fire to be exact. If it were to become the probable magic/fire then players wouldn't need two kinds of head min-maxing for the end-game but considering the general direction of the game I doubt things are going to become easier for players.

Treants do physical yeah but at some point you become capable of incinerating them in a single blast and then they lose their status as a dificult enemy pretty quickly. Honestly I wouldn't mind 3 different kinds of treants. Bushlings for the more early game. The current treants can stay where they are as far as difficulty is concerned. And then some sort of ancient oak( or world tree, or corrupted oak(dark forest, wink)) kind of treant that's meant for a signifigantly larger and more combat capable dragon.
That's a sizeable assumption. And do you mean solo, or with minions? Because a lone mid-sized dragon isn't going to be very tanky.
Medium-sized dragon is not a tank, true. Monstrous and up sure, but if you're going to want to tank and chip away at a more difficult enemy's health earlier than that I'd say you're going to need a few sets of short paws.

As for solo or minions, tanking damage while your minions take care of things is a strategy, true, but as you get to the upper ranks of size and personal damage output you begin to need your minions less and less(with some events being better to do it solo, like the pissed off angel group and the archmage). A collossal dragon on normal difficulty for instance can solo everything(as far as I've come across) no matter its head combination, except for exceptionally hard bosses(archmage, pheonix, demon prince, dwarven champ).
I could make another cosmetic option for 'single-winged' vs 'multi-winged' dragons, like there are single- and multi-headed dragons, but I'd rather implement new content instead of creating endless cosmetic options.
If wings and paws were to, through the mutation menu only, get upgrades in size and strength that increase their effectiveness instead of requiring from the player to get more wings to fly as they get larger, it could work. But I agree with you that new content is preferable to increased cosmetics.
 

Jman9

Engaged Member
Jul 17, 2019
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If it were to become the probable magic/fire then players wouldn't need two kinds of head min-maxing for the end-game
Uh, fire/magic is harder than fire/physical, right?

Honestly I wouldn't mind 3 different kinds of treants.
Yeah, I should probably inflate certain enemies a bit. Just yesterday I thought about creating 'elder giants' of all varieties. It mostly comes down to finding good pictures, though.

Incidentally, can anyone suggest a name for an 'upgraded' ogre? Elder Ogres are disqualified, because I want Elder Titans and no repeating titles.

with some events being better to do it solo, like the pissed off angel group and the archmage
Doesn't that only work if you've got high fear? Otherwise, your dragon can't perform multiple retaliations and at least some throwaway minions are better than nothing at all.

A collossal dragon on normal difficulty for instance can solo everything(as far as I've come across) no matter its head combination, except for exceptionally hard bosses(archmage, pheonix, demon prince, dwarven champ).
Hmm, yeah, a big dragon is OP. :cry: Some of it is the spells, but he's plenty powerful even without those.

I don't really know what to do here. I don't want to take away the feeling of "Oh, shit, it's the Dragon, run!". But I don't also want everything to be a cakewalk, either.

Maybe take away the dragon's ability to parry attacks, as 'un-dragon' behaviour? Everyone else would continue as normal.

Harder difficulties are a bit different, but spells are still quite powerful there., and I don't think the end result is vastly different. Starting out is massively harder, yes, but not the endgame.

If wings and paws were to, through the mutation menu only, get upgrades in size and strength that increase their effectiveness instead of requiring from the player to get more wings to fly as they get larger, it could work.
That would also be mostly cosmetic, and the effort would be comparable. I'd still have to rewrite the blurbs and introduce special handling into all sorts of name-displaying functions.

I also quite like the effect that the dragon can eat himself so big he can't fly anymore. :p
 

PariahLies

Member
Dec 21, 2018
128
58
Uh, fire/magic is harder than fire/physical, right?
For the most part, yeah. But if the pheonix were magic/fire then it would be slightly easier in the sense that now players only need one set of specially adapted heads to deal two end-game bosses instead of two for two. Think of it like currently you need physical, fire, and frost heads against the pheonix, and magic, fire, and frost heads for the demon prince. If the pheonix were magic/fire then you simply need the demon prince's setup to deal with both of them.
Incidentally, can anyone suggest a name for an 'upgraded' ogre? Elder Ogres are disqualified, because I want Elder Titans and no repeating titles.
Mountain ogre?
Doesn't that only work if you've got high fear? Otherwise, your dragon can't perform multiple retaliations and at least some throwaway minions are better than nothing at all.
It's not about the multiple retaliations(as you can tank solo and take out angels one by one or build yourself against magic/lightning and eventually beat the mage) but rather about the fact that I have several highly valuable minions that I do not want to lose against a repeatable battle that has no impact on the grand scheme of things, since the wizard always teleports away after the battle and attacks things that attack him(leading to at least two or so minions who're capable of even lasting against him dying).
I don't really know what to do here. I don't want to take away the feeling of "Oh, shit, it's the Dragon, run!". But I don't also want everything to be a cakewalk, either.

Maybe take away the dragon's ability to parry attacks, as 'un-dragon' behaviour? Everyone else would continue as normal.
More powerful enemies in general that're capable of dealing with the larger dragon sizes(bigger siege engines from the kingdom, more powerful mythical beasts from nature) would be sufficient I think. The dragon's power scaling feels like it's in a goldilocks zone(on normal at least) and I imagine most would like it kept that way.

As for taking away parrying, I feel like that would make the dragon, in a word, dumber, and would negate the need to level attack mastery apart from increasing your damage output. However, if the hardening scales spell was a tad more powerful and were to increase resistances against all elements of attack then it would be a nice tradeoff(trading free but unreliably random damage reduction for mana-costing but reliable damage reduction).
 

Jman9

Engaged Member
Jul 17, 2019
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if the pheonix were magic/fire then it would be slightly easier in the sense that now players only need one set of specially adapted heads to deal two end-game bosses instead of two for two.
Well, okay, but physical resistances are always superiour, since you can stack them higher and you also have a spell to raise them if you're not maxed yet. With a fire/magic phoenix your setup will be less effective overall, even if you don't need to switch heads around as much. And it's probably pretty rare that people fight the phoenix and then immediately go to the demon endgame.

Mountain ogre?
But I don't want to make them go into the mountains... :cautious: The best I have right now is Bull Ogre.

It's not about the multiple retaliations(as you can tank solo and take out angels one by one
While they get multiple strikes on the minion-less dragon.

You're right about valuable minions, but one can always hatch or hire some throwaway henchcritters.

The Archmage as a solo, multi-retaliating opponent is probably one of the few cases where any minions at all are largely a bad idea.

More powerful enemies in general
I'll see what I can do. It's going to take time, though.

As for taking away parrying, I feel like that would make the dragon, in a word, dumber, and would negate the need to level attack mastery apart from increasing your damage output.
Maybe. I'm looking at it from a purely gameplay POV, and the big thing with an endgame dragon is that he's got a giant chunk of HP, serious resistances and basically halved damage from parrying on top of those. He's also pretty much the only creature in the game who can level his attack mastery to absolutely crazy levels.

Edit: Attack mastery also protects you against being parried by others, so it wouldn't be only about damage, just without a defensive component.

However, if the hardening scales spell was a tad more powerful and were to increase resistances against all elements
The spells are already mildly broken as is, I really don't want to boost them any further. Witness the one-shotting of treants and all the physical-damage warrior types who are so much like wheat before the dragon. :cry:

The ogre picture isn't bad, but I might be able to do better. Ideally, I need two pictures, anyway, one for the battle card and another for the background.
 
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PariahLies

Member
Dec 21, 2018
128
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But I don't want to make them go into the mountains... :cautious: The best I have right now is Bull Ogre.
The mountain part was more a relation to their size. Mammoth ogre then perhaps, if you can find a good enough pic of an ogre who has sufficiently large tusks as a show of his age, or simply ancient ogre. Hilly giant perhaps if the intended ogre is big enough to be mistaken for a hill as he slept.
 

Jman9

Engaged Member
Jul 17, 2019
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Sounds like you might be missing Hotfix 3. Otherwise, post your save and I'll take a look.
 

Jman9

Engaged Member
Jul 17, 2019
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The poor little dragon in your save is all of angry, hungry and starving (edit: not to mention a bit tired on the, er, 'performance' front ;)). No wonder the Witch isn't taking him in.

Can you give me a save just before she says 'no, because', and state why you think she's mistaken?
 

Harpo123

New Member
Feb 24, 2018
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0
The poor little dragon in your save is all of angry, hungry and starving (edit: not to mention a bit tired on the, er, 'performance' front ;)). No wonder the Witch isn't taking him in.

Can you give me a save just before she says 'no, because', and state why you think she's mistaken?
No mistake from witch, dragon can't restore full stamina. He have "2.9/3" after rest or something like. 2.5, 2.8, never full stamina. Even if rest more, than need for full rest.
 

Jman9

Engaged Member
Jul 17, 2019
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That doesn't matter, the Witch (and most game mechanics) rounds up. Edit: But only for fractional stamina. Other numbers could go either way. /edit Or rather, there's a fractional penalty that the Witch just ignores. This is not the reason she refuses you. In the save, the main reason is that the dragonling is frenzied, and the probable cause is that he's starving.

I'll include the ability to 'rest away' the fractional penalties in the next release, anyway.
 
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caju

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2017
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The largest and most powerful Ogre within the entire kingdom is known as the Overtyrant, the current ruler being the infamously obese, Greasus Goldtooth. Below him stands a large collection of lesser tribal leaders known simply as Tyrants, and are typical the leaders of their own tribe or petty kingdom within the Mountains of Mourn. They naturally rise to rule and do so with an iron fist (literally, for Ogres commonly wear bladed gauntlets just for this purpose). The next largest Ogres under the Tyrants rule are known as Bruisers and these contenders for tribal power assume lesser command duties.
 

Jman9

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Jul 17, 2019
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The WHFB Ogres are kind of a different animal, thematically. DDM Ogres are classical solitary creatures that are not particularly interested in conquest or eating other sentient creatures. They might even be somewhat friendly towards the Kingdom at times.

So Tyrants are out. Bruisers aren't, but an Ogre Bruiser doesn't sound much like an upgrade to me...
 

Minyon

Newbie
Nov 27, 2019
16
8
So, I looked over the script files to check how to tick certain events. Is it possible to get both Isabella and Marianne? I'm just wondering for a personal achievement standpoint or whatever.
 

caju

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2017
1,295
1,241
The WHFB Ogres are kind of a different animal, thematically. DDM Ogres are classical solitary creatures that are not particularly interested in conquest or eating other sentient creatures. They might even be somewhat friendly towards the Kingdom at times.

So Tyrants are out. Bruisers aren't, but an Ogre Bruiser doesn't sound much like an upgrade to me...
Bruiser, Brawler... just offering options and saving you a google search
 

PariahLies

Member
Dec 21, 2018
128
58
So, I looked over the script files to check how to tick certain events. Is it possible to get both Isabella and Marianne? I'm just wondering for a personal achievement standpoint or whatever.
Yes. Just be sure to use the option of hunting down every traitor when you assume the king's form and talk to the general or whatever his role is instead of the treasurer or secrets dude and you'll at some point encounter Isabella's event. I'll assume you know how to get Marianne since the thing is kinda linear.
 
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