Ren'Py Completed Toro 7 [Ep. 7] [Tora Productions]

[Abhai]

Firstly, post link to poll or just "trust me bro."
Secondly, poll not definitive as much as you would like it to be.
Thirdly, you could say the same thing with any aspect that contributes to a game, visuals, branching, etc. It's just that according you own personal opinion that sound ranks lower on the hierarchy.
Lastly, GTA series to this day are still looked back with nostalgia due to their soundtracks. Is this feasible by an indie dev? No, but it demonstrates the power of thoughtful sound design can have for a game.

Agree, poorly implemented sound can negatively affect the experience, but so can janky animation, etc. Adding sound and music can increase dev time, but so can extra story, visuals, etc. What is the marginal cost/benefit of adding sound vs what you could spend that on something else? My guess is that some sound would trump a complete lack of it.

firstly - trust me or not, it is up to you.
if you are interested in the poli, do check/search this forum...i didnt consider it of such importance to bookmark it myself, just in case some "music lover" eager to discuss importance of music in avns can have quick look at it.
and even then, who says he will be satisfied with that result?
he can go on and go on, ignoring everything that doesnt fit his particular taste.

secondly - here we go - back to "firstly".

thirdly - are you even aware what are you writing? or do you think "avn" stands for "any view/taste/thing nmatters"?
yup, you are on something there definitely - renders, branching, plot...it is all subjective and doesnt matter for avn...at least no more than music/sound.

lastly, again, do read my post prior to throwing such "arguments"..or should i underline parts of it that are related to this "last point of yours"?

my point is and was - sound and music are secondary to avn world.
these games can go perfectly fine without it.
if applied properly ofc sound/music can enhance playing experience, yet in more cases than not, it doesnt happen for various reasons.
end of this mini-discussion, from my side at least...cause the bed is calling..louder and louder with each passing minute

 

[Gato21]

firstly - trust me or not, it is up to you.
if you are interested in the poli, do check/search this forum...i didnt consider it of such importance to bookmark it myself, just in case some "music lover" eager to discuss importance of music in avns can have quick look at it.
and even then, who says he will be satisfied with that result?
he can go on and go on, ignoring everything that doesnt fit his particular taste.

secondly - here we go - back to "firstly".

thirdly - are you even aware what are you writing? or do you think "avn" stands for "any view/taste/thing nmatters"?
yup, you are on something there definitely - renders, branching, plot...it is all subjective and doesnt matter for avn...at least no more than music/sound.

lastly, again, do read my post prior to throwing such "arguments"..or should i underline parts of it that are related to this "last point of yours"?

my point is and was - sound and music are secondary to avn world.
these games can go perfectly fine without it.
if applied properly ofc sound/music can enhance playing experience, yet in more cases than not, it doesnt happen for various reasons.
end of this mini-discussion, from my side at least...cause the bed is calling..louder and louder with each passing minute

"music lover" - Don't kink shame me bro.

 

[JJJ84]

Any idea why sound was neglected in this game? Even if the dev didn't want a soundtrack, some ambient sound in the background would have added a lot to the experience. Do they just assume we all play games muted, or something?

I mean, not that I have seen Ducky's poll, but several of AVNs actually are pretty much muted; there are some which do have soundtrack, sound effects as well, but that's completely dev's choice (and their endeavor with the whole music licensing, which does at times end up with a heartache for the dev that I've seen).

But seriously, music and sound effects have always been pretty secondary in my eyes, and were never things that I needed to enjoy a game (esp. AVNs); as long as the game has good characterization and world building that's all that matters.
Besides, it's not like soundtrack and sound effects always hit bullseye when devs implement them.
There are instances where soundtrack either doesn't really fit or becomes repetitive, and sound effects while at times can be amusing, can come off as pretty cringy and awkward also.

 

[Bloodguard]

Any idea why sound was neglected in this game? Even if the dev didn't want a soundtrack, some ambient sound in the background would have added a lot to the experience. Do they just assume we all play games muted, or something?

No audio at all? That's quite disappointing. With all the license free music out there, no audio these days seem pretty low-effort to me. I rate sound over animations, but if a game has neither? Damn.
Being super auditory, I am firmly in the camp that crappy music and sound is better than none at all.

 

[Gato21]

No audio at all? That's quite disappointing. With all the license free music out there, no audio these days seem pretty low-effort to me. I rate sound over animations, but if a game has neither? Damn.
Being super auditory, I am firmly in the camp that crappy music and sound is better than none at all.

Lol. I probably won't go as far as that, but I do consider music and sound an important part of design, going as far back as the beginning of gaming.

Spoiler: Classic Video Game Sound Explained Video

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[Dragon59]

uh?

me complaining about the attractiveness of the female cast has absolute nothing to do with acceptance. the fuck is wrong with you?

we are talking about a porn game here in case you didnt notice. i am straight, i like my women without penises when iam jacking off.

having the only 10/10 chick in the game, while the rest of the girls are 6/10 at best, be trans is fine if you advertise your game as such. which didnt happen. hence my dissapointment. its not rocket science.

i have literally trans ppl in my life which i love and respect. gtfo here talking about acceptance and making this some woke victim olympics.

First off, Toro7 definitely fits on the AVN side of the scale.
You really had to use the W word at the end, didn't you? That reveals so much. Buh Bye!

 

[Dragon59]

Well, certainly. A moving, inconsistent time slot and not airing the episodes in story order were a death knell for a new show. The smell test says Fox realized quickly that the tone was different than what they had hoped for from Whedon (too much diversity and not enough sexy teen girls) and did everything they could to bury it early before it gained too much traction.

I remember decades earlier when NBC treated Science Fiction the same way. Bad time slots, moving around the schedule, then cancellation. When the SciFi channel first began, they ran a lot of those series.

It's an interesting thought to wonder how much religion-based hatred comes down to those people having poor reading/language/comprehension skills. For example, calling yourself "Christian" but somehow missing/misunderstanding everything that Jesus ever said or did about love and acceptance. Or with homosexuality specifically...what exaclty do they think was happening when a bunch of guys spent 40 days in tents out in the desert???

That reminds me of how it explicitly states in their Bible that the sin of Sodom was the abuse of hospitality--how they treated travelers to their city. The rules of hospitality were VERY important in desert and snowbound societies, where someone turned away would likely die. But some church father centuries ago had a problem with same-sex interaction so he of course ephasized that part.

So many so-called Christians do not take the time or effort, not only to study their book, but to understand the historical and geographical context.

And the whole entire world is just like you, so there should never be anything thought, written, produced, etc. that doesn't suit your individual taste! The fuck, world? How dare you dispespect this little boy in such a fashion? He is the only person in the world who matters!!! If he's not happy then dammit I quit!

The World: sadly, you are our problem

There are some people who are afraid of diversity, it makes them unsure of their place in the world when they realize that their cherished values/prejudices are not universal. Some fortunately grow out of it. Unfortunately, some don't. Some treat the world like a game where anyone not like them is just an NPC (or a beta cuck) and of no consequence.

 

[Tlaero]

Re: Music and Sound Effects.

It's perfectly fair to want these things in a game. They're just expensive in terms of both money and time.

The license for the music in the intro in Toro 7 cost Mortze something like 200 Euros. Every one of those sorts of things he purchases comes out of the same budget as models to render. I think we can all agree that the visuals are more important than background music. And I would be very surprised if the marginal increase in patronage caused by him putting that music in ever paid back the cost.

If you go with free music, there's a lot of time searching, listening, etc. And that's time that, once again, could be spent writing or rendering.

Sure, if there was someone who loved working with audio, and was willing to do the audio work for our games for free, I'd be happy to talk to them. Unfortunately, we're only making enough for me to take no payment and Mortze to just scrape by. If we had to pay someone else, Mortze wouldn't be able to afford to do this job.

Tlaero

 

[Joshy92]

I'll be honest I don't really care about music in visual novels

 

[TGafy]

Bloodguard I've noticed you had facepalmed several recent posts that was not in favor of having music in vns. Have you considered opening a playlist outside of the game? It'll be a win-win situation that way. Devs won't have to put the extra time working songs into their games and you get music while you play.

 

[Bloodguard]

Bloodguard I've noticed you had facepalmed several recent posts that was not in favor of having music in vns. Have you considered opening a playlist outside of the game? It'll be a win-win situation that way. Devs won't have to put the extra time working songs into their games and you get music while you play.

I do that if I have to, but the Devs usually have a vision for their games, it would be much preferred if they included music to help realize that vision. Honestly, the lack of music does not bother me as much as no sound effects/background audio. Those I can't add myself.

 

[Tulrek]

Bloodguard I've noticed you had facepalmed several recent posts that was not in favor of having music in vns. Have you considered opening a playlist outside of the game? It'll be a win-win situation that way. Devs won't have to put the extra time working songs into their games and you get music while you play.

Exactly. I mute all my VN and play my own playlist from youtube.
I like the sound effects though.
But I really prefere choosing my own music than be stuck with the same songs/musics that loop again and again.

My humble opinion though !
No lessons given to anyone so... peace.

 

[FookU2]

And your use of the term stay-at-home-mons is less egregious but it is clearly outdated. Since you seem to love stats so much, why don't you look up the demographics of stay-at-home-moms. You will find that in 2023 there are virtually no SAHM anymore other than almost exclusively wealthy, white women because the economics of single-income homes are no longer feasible for the vast majority of working-class families. So your sweeping generalisms make even less sense since in reality they only apply to a small subgrouping of "women" in the first place.

But the lack of logic in your post is made even more glaring when you say something telling like "every person I know who watches soaps is a woman" as evidence that your generalization must be true. Clearly you do not understand that the entire world is made up many different people most of which are not exaxtly like the ones you know personally.

Stay-at-home-moms aren't as outdated as you choose to believe. I promise you I know a ton of them, and they aren't a part of any wealthy group, and they are more than just white women. So, your statement "almost exclusively wealthy, white women" isn't even close to the truth.

Every soap watching person I know being a woman shows percentages. And that number is very much higher than "these 5 people I know." Just for the sake of math, let's just say that number is 5000 people. Let's say out of those 5000 people I know, 500 of them watch soaps (or reality shows, since that's what that demographic is supposedly going to, according to the link I posted). That means 10% of the people I know watch soaps. And while demographics change depending on area, that is still a percentage. Out of 5000 people, 500 watch soaps....10% of people watch soaps. That is in Tennessee. Maybe it's just my area. Maybe the next 5000 people down the road won't watch at all, and that will change the numbers, but that is still stats, and still facts.
And I find it hard to believe that the percentage of people I know/have met who are part of a certain demographic is that much different than the percentage of people in any other area who are a part of that same demographic. I am very well aware of all the different types of people in the world. Sure, there's a chance I could walk up to 5000 people, asking them all the same question, and get the exact same answer from those 5000 people, then walk up to another 5000 people from 500 miles away, asking them all that same question, but get 5000 totally different answers, but that's not very likely. You are likely to get the same percentages from the 2nd group as you got from the first group. It's just numbers.

You are also getting butthurt over semantics. Just because I didn't use "most" or "a lot" in my sentence, you took it word for word, assuming I am dumb enough to think literally every single woman in the world sits at home, doing nothing accept watching soaps. That's pretty ridiculous. I have faith that nobody is that ignorant.

 

[Ottoeight]

I guess some people really need to be reminded that NO ONE requested lessons in morality/history/religion/ethics/economics/social sciences from anyone in this thread and in F95 forum.

 

[Gato21]

Re: Music and Sound Effects.

It's perfectly fair to want these things in a game. They're just expensive in terms of both money and time.

The license for the music in the intro in Toro 7 cost Mortze something like 200 Euros. Every one of those sorts of things he purchases comes out of the same budget as models to render. I think we can all agree that the visuals are more important than background music. And I would be very surprised if the marginal increase in patronage caused by him putting that music in ever paid back the cost.

If you go with free music, there's a lot of time searching, listening, etc. And that's time that, once again, could be spent writing or rendering.

Sure, if there was someone who loved working with audio, and was willing to do the audio work for our games for free, I'd be happy to talk to them. Unfortunately, we're only making enough for me to take no payment and Mortze to just scrape by. If we had to pay someone else, Mortze wouldn't be able to afford to do this job.

Tlaero

The real reason not to add audio:


JK. Thanks for responding and best of luck.

 

[Dragon59]

Stay-at-home-moms aren't as outdated as you choose to believe. I promise you I know a ton of them, and they aren't a part of any wealthy group, and they are more than just white women. So, your statement "almost exclusively wealthy, white women" isn't even close to the truth.

Every soap watching person I know being a woman shows percentages. And that number is very much higher than "these 5 people I know." Just for the sake of math, let's just say that number is 5000 people. Let's say out of those 5000 people I know, 500 of them watch soaps (or reality shows, since that's what that demographic is supposedly going to, according to the link I posted). That means 10% of the people I know watch soaps. And while demographics change depending on area, that is still a percentage. Out of 5000 people, 500 watch soaps....10% of people watch soaps. That is in Tennessee. Maybe it's just my area. Maybe the next 5000 people down the road won't watch at all, and that will change the numbers, but that is still stats, and still facts.
And I find it hard to believe that the percentage of people I know/have met who are part of a certain demographic is that much different than the percentage of people in any other area who are a part of that same demographic. I am very well aware of all the different types of people in the world. Sure, there's a chance I could walk up to 5000 people, asking them all the same question, and get the exact same answer from those 5000 people, then walk up to another 5000 people from 500 miles away, asking them all that same question, but get 5000 totally different answers, but that's not very likely. You are likely to get the same percentages from the 2nd group as you got from the first group. It's just numbers.

You are also getting butthurt over semantics. Just because I didn't use "most" or "a lot" in my sentence, you took it word for word, assuming I am dumb enough to think literally every single woman in the world sits at home, doing nothing accept watching soaps. That's pretty ridiculous. I have faith that nobody is that ignorant.

According to the latest figures, around 10 million women and 2 million men in the US watch soap operas. The percentage of watchers who are men is cited as 22%. With a total adult population of 258 million, and women comprising 50.4% of that population, that implies that approximately 7.7% of adult women in the US watch soap operas, 1.6% for adult men.

Edit: Back in the 80s, viewership was around 50 million viewers.

 

[jI11jaCksjAkk]

IMHO sounds/music are bad far more often than they enhance a game, and feel like a crutch for lousy writing most of the time. I understand that there are lot of folks out there who are uncomfortable with silence, but anyone can always play their own choice of bgm. Game sounds are often either (a) very sporadic and their unexpected random occurences can take me out of the narrative, or (b) insanely repetitive, like a standard "door" sound every time you change locations ad nauseum (even when there are no doors). They are almost always (c) problematic/uneven volume-wise. And I don't see what randomly shoehorned in free-use music tracks that have nothing whatsoever to do with the story or visuals adds other than distractions. Just my 2 cents.

 

[jI11jaCksjAkk]

I know this is just a porn forum but we should try to be civil.

They are replying to the energy you give out. Tit for tat. You started it with your bafflingly aggressive reply to Tlaero.

Agreed and agreed. I tend to react to aggression with aggression and certainly lost my grip on civility. From my perusal of this thread it seems that the dev is engaged and courteouos, and my reaction to an insulting post by a rude member took me down a rabbithole.

Apologies to the dev, who doesn't need any dipshit white knights to speak for her.

 

[Cabin Fever]

And I don't see what randomly shoehorned in free-use music tracks that have nothing whatsoever to do with the story or visuals adds other than distractions. Just my 2 cents.

Not everybody enjoys music in their game. That much we can all agree on. But I think you got it backwards. When a dev adds music, it's pretty much always to help set the tone and mood of the scene. It would take a really lousy dev to spend time and money to add random "tracks that have nothing whatsoever to do with the story". But muting the dev-chosen music and playing your own is what by definition "tracks that have nothing whatsoever to do with the story or visuals adds other than distractions."

 

[JustJeff722]

A good game, but shorter than I expected! Only took me a few hours to play the whole game.