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4.50 star(s) 57 Votes

ryansFLYIN

Member
Sep 19, 2022
453
1,446
Well, it's a quippy, lighthearted MC who also happens to just blow Lily's stalker's brains out if you choose to do that - which I did. I didn't get the impression that he's all that simple. The banter as well as the attitude are clearly used as a mask; as a means to communicate with people he would otherwise have issues talking to. When Valentine "recognized" him in the very beginning I knew that this guy was a walking threat, because Valentine fits the 'psycho ultra strong bodyguard'-theme pretty well. Beast recognizes beast. Still, he came back for Lily and Sam. So he still has a heart. He's multi-faceted.
You can kill, yes, but we can assume someone in the army has killed before and it isn't that big of a deal. But he apparently wasn't just in the army. He did off the books stuff which we can assume requires a lot more... well, a lot less morality. The point is, we learned all of this late and had an idea of the type of person the MC is by this point. And not knowing any of this in the beginning, that Val scene was just weird. I didn't use that to infer anything because it didn't show or explain anything other than some crazy girl on the street.

I don't like femdom at all, but I like Akira. She's the typical ice queen that our MC will have a great time messing with. He already knows how to play her and it's only going to get better. (I hope)
I don't think she's femdom. She's a way to introduce it, yes, but I don't think anything she has done could be labeled as such. And as of right now, I don't think I would want to mess with her. I'd rather leave her on 'Read', but that's because I played the MC apparently entirely wrong, but I don't even know how to approach playing him because we still don't really know what type of person he is. We've seen mostly one side of him while the other was mostly just talked about.
 

Ka1tzer

Member
Jan 12, 2023
251
615
Alright, let's do this. This is gonna be a lengthy one. I'll try to break it down on spoiler sections and I'll try to justify everything, even though it is all still, as ever, subjective. I'll also try to illustrate whatever I say with screenshots or examples. Needless to say, there'll be a lot of spoilers ahead.

I'll preface everything by sharing some of my personal views so we can establish (or not) some common grounds and my own framing, where I'm coming from in regards to what I'll say:

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I'm saying all of this because some people might research this game's thread prior to playing it, see some of the people's reaction and decide to not even give it a try due to some people's personal lopsided views and exaggerations, and that could be an unfair blow to the developer and the game itself - especially since I think it's an awesome game.

With all that out of the way, let's (FINALLY) start talking about the game. Initially I was going to make a recap of events up to 0.2 before delving into 0.3, but as I started writing this, I felt it would be better to directly talk about the characters themselves and their interactions with the MC.


Now I'll just put here some of the things I agree with others that were a little sloppy:

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So now let's talk about the characters, my favorite part.
I'll address only three of them, since they were the catalysts for most (if not all) of the "strong" reactions some folks have been airing out.

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Finally done with this post and holy shit this took a long time to write.

TL;DR: Give the game a chance instead of letting other people think for you, especially if you have been enjoying the game up to v0.2. I think it was great, and feel that a lot of people portrayed (perhaps even unintentionally) their misgivings in a greatly exaggerated manner. Just try it out, it's free FFS.
 
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Pinsel

Active Member
Dec 25, 2019
821
729
I realy like the game. :love:

But seriously now. Why does every AVN have to have a girl with two-tone eyes. First of all, it's really realy rare and then it's not even sexy. just ....confusing. :eek:
So, I got rid of that too. It's been bugging me for a long time.
 

Old Grumpy Wolf

Devoted Member
Jul 17, 2021
8,916
13,633
I realy like the game. :love:

But seriously now. Why does every AVN have to have a girl with two-tone eyes. First of all, it's really realy rare and then it's not even sexy. just ....confusing. :eek:
So, I got rid of that too. It's been bugging me for a long time.
I think it's sexy af. If it's bugging you, you're just weird. But weird is good. Don't let anyone tell you differently.
 

Pushpa Gotama

Member
Dec 7, 2021
121
154
what a shame, despite this game being far away to something like twisted fates this big shift is just bad. i dunno why devs cant seem to understand that this kind of banter and occasional looking down/playing someone only looks nice in a comedic setting (especially when both parties are friends) and when they go at it with each other.

i cant believe to see such failures again just after seeing a recently failed one...

devs seems to always do this when update/development time seems to always go so long... just introduced bad situations/characters/forced then calling it a day just to have content...
 
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Frostfire281

Member
Jan 18, 2019
132
222
Sam is the biggest stretch. And writing this I realize how crazy you people have to be to see this as our character being dominated, undermined, humiliated, abused or being the victim of hate. And I seriously wonder how you expected him to react in those situations.
While I generally agree with you, to be fair, Sam is the least stretch of them all because she does actually attempt to punch the MC, which IS abuse by definition. Still, it's a bit much to call her abusive because she's a hurt, immature woman lashing out. Is it a double standard? Absolutely, but men and women aren't the same, so standards are different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Tiur

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2021
1,237
3,383
Totally don't agree with you here, and I think you're overreacting. The MC wasn't passive. He just wasn't in a situation where he could, at any point, just throw guns or violence at a problem to make it disappear. In my opinion, none of the woman have been either hateful or abusive in this update.

Akira is, to me, not a femdom character. She's cold, scheming and knows she has the upper hand. Still, the MC manages to fuck with her multiple times, whether it's on the phone to get her to send a sexy selfie or in the library by making her 'lose' the daring game. I think this is going into the opposite direction of what you're thinking. He challenges her and she wins by, ultimately, losing.

Valentine's a psycho who's intrigued with the MC because she recognizes herself in him. Both are broken.

Sam was angry at the MC and vented to her friend, like people do in these situations. Called him names and everything. Nothing hateful or abusive about it, though. There was never a doubt how much she cared about him, and clearly he knew, too.

The whole "if a man did it"-thing is bogus, especially in your last point. We CHOSE to let her hit us, and we KNEW it wouldn't cause an injury or whatever. And I'm sure she did, too. :)

--

It's all a lot to read but I think you're feeling betrayed by how the MC acted this update. Our character isn't superman. He was in a room with a killer that seems on par with him and an obviously powerful entity that he didn't know anything about. He listened to what she had to say, but never really submitted to her. He just knew better than to do dumb shit. Him finding Akira attractive doesn't make him a submissive guy, but rather a calculating one. It's like the strict, hot teacher fantasy that gives you shit in the classroom. You want to fuck her to put her in her place. That's the dynamic I'm seeing (in some, not the exact) way play out.

I think a lot of nuance got lost on you. Maybe give it another try and see things through another lense? I liked it and thought it was consistent with what I expected.
You're mistaken: I did not lose the nuance. I understand why Akira, Valentine, and Sam are acting the way they are. Knowing why they are doing it, and agreeing that it's totally fine, bro, are two different things entirely. Sam is being more trouble than the relationship with her is worth, and Akira and Valentine are flat-out enemies that the writing tortuously makes the MC like.

Val and Akira: The interactions they've had with the MC are unquestionably controlling, abusive, belittling, and hostile. If you see it as banter, or just being snarky, or being an ice princess? They HAVE NOT EARNED THAT. People are snarky and banter with their FRIENDS, and Akira and Val are the exact opposite of friends. They are enemies. I suspect the only reason players are giving them a pass for their shitty behavior is because the players know they are love interests. Hell, I saw someone reply to a screenshot of literal insults by saying they weren't insulting. I do not tolerate people genuinely insulting me (and any argument that Val and Akira are not being genuine in their insults is specious at best, because, again, they haven't earned any form of relationship that would allow for banter), and I don't like playing an MC who DOES accept insults without complaint.

Akira has threatened the MC's life in multiple ways: by Valentine holding a literal knife to his throat, and by ruining his life using his war crimes file. Neither of those are things you can walk away from, and it stuns me that so many people are just 100% okay with them. An MC I would enjoy playing would do everything in his power to oppose and defeat both of them, until he leaves them behind in the dust where they belong. Just about the only way they could get worse (non-sexually) in my book is if they actually straight-up murdered another LI.

Val and Akira's actions so far are the actions of evil and hostile people, and we are forced to read how the MC finds it 'hot' instead, because he is weak-willed and spineless and we have no choice over his important decisions.

On Sam being a brat in insulting and hostile ways? Then fuck her. Life is too short for people who pull shit like that. They learn or they end up alone. It isn't even about whether you let her hit the MC or stop her, it's about her TAKING A SWING AT HIM. I have NEVER tried to punch someone I loved, for any reason, not even when at my absolute angriest, and I would never, EVER tolerate a loved one doing so to me, either. Attempted physical abuse doesn't stop being abuse just because the person is pretty, or just because it didn't connect.
 

Simulacrum29

Active Member
Apr 20, 2018
891
3,337
If Akira and Val came to the MC and said we need a guy with your talents we watched you and you made waves. than the dialog could be taken as friendly banter.

But their first interaction is clearly hostile to the max and so every following scene must be seen in that context because Dev framed it so. If they should be perceived as bantering with each other, the first meeting must be changed.

If they had said they where impressed by his willingness to act/get more Information out of the guy and want him to work with them and as additional incentive they can help him to get rid of all his crimes he may have committed overseas, the tone would be completely different and Akira would still be the Cool, collected and Powerful Businesswomen with shady plans, without pissing off half the player base. MC could still say he don't believe she has anything from overseas and then she can still do her name dropping of the city.
 

Ka1tzer

Member
Jan 12, 2023
251
615
You're mistaken: I did not lose the nuance. I understand why Akira, Valentine, and Sam are acting the way they are. Knowing why they are doing it, and agreeing that it's totally fine, bro, are two different things entirely. Sam is being more trouble than the relationship with her is worth, and Akira and Valentine are flat-out enemies that the writing tortuously makes the MC like.

Val and Akira: The interactions they've had with the MC are unquestionably controlling, abusive, belittling, and hostile. If you see it as banter, or just being snarky, or being an ice princess? They HAVE NOT EARNED THAT. People are snarky and banter with their FRIENDS, and Akira and Val are the exact opposite of friends. They are enemies. I suspect the only reason players are giving them a pass for their shitty behavior is because the players know they are love interests. Hell, I saw someone reply to a screenshot of literal insults by saying they weren't insulting. I do not tolerate people genuinely insulting me (and any argument that Val and Akira are not being genuine in their insults is specious at best, because, again, they haven't earned any form of relationship that would allow for banter), and I don't like playing an MC who DOES accept insults without complaint.

Akira has threatened the MC's life in multiple ways: by Valentine holding a literal knife to his throat, and by ruining his life using his war crimes file. Neither of those are things you can walk away from, and it stuns me that so many people are just 100% okay with them. An MC I would enjoy playing would do everything in his power to oppose and defeat both of them, until he leaves them behind in the dust where they belong. Just about the only way they could get worse (non-sexually) in my book is if they actually straight-up murdered another LI.

Val and Akira's actions so far are the actions of evil and hostile people, and we are forced to read how the MC finds it 'hot' instead, because he is weak-willed and spineless and we have no choice over his important decisions.

On Sam being a brat in insulting and hostile ways? Then fuck her. Life is too short for people who pull shit like that. They learn or they end up alone. It isn't even about whether you let her hit the MC or stop her, it's about her TAKING A SWING AT HIM. I have NEVER tried to punch someone I loved, for any reason, not even when at my absolute angriest, and I would never, EVER tolerate a loved one doing so to me, either. Attempted physical abuse doesn't stop being abuse just because the person is pretty, or just because it didn't connect.
I've seen you post in a few different threads and usually you and I are very much aligned, but this time around, I really think you are taking things WAY too far.

I won't go point for point here as a lot of what's being aired is opinion-based and subjective, and you are absolutely entitled to having your opinion and sharing it.

However... consider this: the MC is snarky as fuck! With everyone, at all times, all the time. That's his personality and how he does things. Look at burger/phone flipper. Look at weird trenchcoat wearing hottie Lua. They weren't friends, but it doesn't matter. All you can control is how you react, and this MC is written as one that takes things in stride and then fires back instead of stopping everything and nuking all interactions in a "my way or the highway" kind of attitude. The MC slings out insults abput as much as he takes them.

Looks to me like it's all about control and permission, with what you're saying, like "they don't have permission to be snarky with the MC because they aren't friends and haven't earned that right". Thing is, friendships can start in many different ways and many of my own friendships started with either me or my soon-to-be-friend making fun of each other. The key though was that no one got needlessly offended.

This update though was one in which most of the control was taken out from the MC, and he was on the receiving end of whoever initiated the interactions with him. More reactionary, sure. Does not mean in any way that he was passive about the situation and circumstances though.

Now, of course that there are limits to everything and everyone is different.

So yeah man, like I mentioned I usually am onboard with a lot of what you say in some other games. But your takes in this particular one? Even after reading your previous lengthy and detailed post, I just don't see the things you are so overly disappointed about in regards to the character work.
 

holaje12

Active Member
Dec 17, 2018
939
4,149
I loved 0.1 and 0.2. I saw so much potential in 0.1 that I backed the dev immed.....
.....
TL;DR: 0.3 was a massive disappointment from a writing and characterization standpoint, it solidly ruined three LIs and the MC and damaged a fourth LI, and it directly caused me to withdraw my support and stop recommending the game to my friends, entirely on its own.
Holy fucking shit, thanks for taking the time to write in such detail, even with the dev's comments that just convinced me as if I needed even more. How does everything go to shit in a single update lmao, normally it is a shit character that gets introduced and thats it not big deal, but in this case it seems like such character infected all others with the same bullshit and now we have this mess, and it is all unavoidable, which is the cherry on top.:ROFLMAO:
 
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Tiur

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2021
1,237
3,383
So yeah man, like I mentioned I usually am onboard with a lot of what you say in some other games. But your takes in this particular one? Even after reading your previous lengthy and detailed post, I just don't see the things you are so overly disappointed about in regards to the character work.
Thanks for the acknowledgement and the courteous disagreement. And, yeah, a good chunk of my reaction is opinion, but as the reactions to my post show, it's not an opinion even remotely unique to me. My objections have struck a chord with a LOT of people who were formerly fans of the game.

And fundamentally, yes, a big chunk of it is that I DETEST control being taken away from me, and I don't like playing characters who are fine with that happening to them. I do not play submissive characters. I also strongly dislike domineering women. There's a difference between strong and domineering, and I felt that Akira more than tipped over that line.

A few minor notes to clarify my mindset:
All you can control is how you react
And one of my major complaints is that we CAN'T control that here. The MC specifically says he likes Akira for being a bitch to him.
Looks to me like it's all about control and permission, with what you're saying, like "they don't have permission to be snarky with the MC because they aren't friends and haven't earned that right".
I'm talking about narratively-earned behaviors, not character-based permissions. The characters in question did something horrific to the MC, and have threatened worse, and that precludes starting the relationship in any other fashion. The issue here is that the banter is being treated as banter when there is no context that supports it being banter. Friendship + insults can be snark and banter. Hostility + insults just can't, and there are few things MORE hostile than holding a knife to someone's throat and forcing them to obey you at threat of ruining their life or killing them.
 

Simulacrum29

Active Member
Apr 20, 2018
891
3,337
I'm talking about narratively-earned behaviors, not character-based permissions. The characters in question did something horrific to the MC, and have threatened worse, and that precludes starting the relationship in any other fashion. The issue here is that the banter is being treated as banter when there is no context that supports it being banter. Friendship + insults can be snark and banter. Hostility + insults just can't, and there are few things MORE hostile than holding a knife to someone's throat and forcing them to obey you at threat of ruining their life or killing them.
he is absolutely right dev is showing us the complet opposite of what he tells us, that is a well known problem in TV and Film.

A divergence of words and images is created when the content of an image does not correspond with the parallel spoken text.
In Germany we have a Technical term for it (eine Text-Bild-Schere)

Ever heard the saying "a picture says more then 1000 words" the Pictures show us a total hostility and the text wants us to believe that its not that bad, but we saw with our own eyes that its indeed that bad, and all the words wont change what we saw. The Dev isn't doing it maliciously but this is nothing else then gaslighting, to tell someone that what he saw never happened.

The Narcissist's Prayer
by Supriya McKenna

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
 

Ka1tzer

Member
Jan 12, 2023
251
615
Thanks for the acknowledgement and the courteous disagreement. And, yeah, a good chunk of my reaction is opinion, but as the reactions to my post show, it's not an opinion even remotely unique to me. My objections have struck a chord with a LOT of people who were formerly fans of the game.

And fundamentally, yes, a big chunk of it is that I DETEST control being taken away from me, and I don't like playing characters who are fine with that happening to them. I do not play submissive characters. I also strongly dislike domineering women. There's a difference between strong and domineering, and I felt that Akira more than tipped over that line.

A few minor notes to clarify my mindset:
And one of my major complaints is that we CAN'T control that here. The MC specifically says he likes Akira for being a bitch to him.
I'm talking about narratively-earned behaviors, not character-based permissions. The characters in question did something horrific to the MC, and have threatened worse, and that precludes starting the relationship in any other fashion. The issue here is that the banter is being treated as banter when there is no context that supports it being banter. Friendship + insults can be snark and banter. Hostility + insults just can't, and there are few things MORE hostile than holding a knife to someone's throat and forcing them to obey you at threat of ruining their life or killing them.
Edit: didn't mean for the post to be lengthy, but it seems I just can't help being verbose.

While there's merit to the fact that the knife-to-the-throat thing was over the top (and frankly something I disliked about the update as well as I mentioned in a previous post), let's not forget that the MC came into the meeting unprepared, as he tried to blackmail Akira as well!

The thing is that she called his bluff and caught him.

And I'm with you on the fact that I hate passive doormat characters as well and tend to prefer dom ones, though those can come in different ways and don't always have to be Rambo. Considering the circumstances in which the MC's bluff was called out and he got caught, the next best alternative is biding his time. He is never being a passive bitch about it, even when he lost control, he does it "kicking and screaming" as it were.

I disagree with the way you are framing the blackmailing situation with the MC though. Not that that's a good thing cause it's not, it sucks to be on the receiving end of it but bear with me and put yourself in the shoes of someone extremely powerful, dominant, calculating, intelligent, ruthless, and that does not shy away from having to deal with "dirty work" directly or indirectly and that just had your very carefully laid plans ruined by some unknown quantity out of the blue.

You then start looking into what the fuck happened and see a guy you've never seen or heard of before. You research this individual and find a file that was not supposed to exist that has information that is bad enough to be classified in that manner, probably something that automatically places this unknown individual as an extremely dangerous being.

Then you aren't yet sure if this is an independent actor or not, and need to ascertain yourself so that whatever happened last time doesn't happen again. At the same time, you see that his specific skillset could be very valuable to you.

What do you do? Be honest. Forget the fact that it's Akira, a domineering woman in this position.

As for me, I know for a fact that I would want to try and ensure I can make use of this individual while at the same time I'd ensure my own safety and the safety of my plans, through any means necessary. If it were me, I'd even go and place Sam and Lily (whom I'd surely know about after researching the unknowable quantity individual) under observation and I might even use them as blackmail chips to get my unexpected opponent to comply. Failing all that, I'd kill him and be done with it.

Now objectively analyze what Akira did. I really don't think it warrants the kind of reaction that have been aired out as of late in this thread. If anything, Akira took the MC very seriously, while he came unprepared (which is ironic since he's the one used to being underestimated, and fell into the trap of a cerebral opponent who took him seriously).

And take into consideration that she never even mentioned Lily or Sam as collaterals. She certainly knows about them, and I'm fairly sure it's because she wants a good relationship instead of a strained one. But at the same time, through the blackmailing she's making it clear that she isn't afraid or using the stick, and she will have you do what she wants no matter what.

That last sentence certainly makes a lot of people's blood boil, but the fact is that the MC lost for now, and should now bide his time. And frankly, the things that have happened since actually go in line with what he needed. The main issue is the way things unfolded, because Akira didn't approach the MC as an equal, and instead came out swinging. I do think that it was correct of her to do so that way though, due to the reasons I mentioned above.

Hopefully we can find some common ground here. Mainly, the thing that I really want out of our discussions is to get people to play the update and make their own judgement instead of letting you, or I, or anyone else for matter do their thinking for them. However, I felt like a lot of people read your lengthy post and didn't even bother to give it a try even if they were enjoying the game a lot at v0.2, as evidenced by the big amount of reactions and comments that followed that post.

It'd suck for the game if some people that would've otherwise really enjoy not even give it a chance, and I for one am really looking forward for future developments of this game and would be very vexed if the dev lost heart in it.
 
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hatman420

New Member
Nov 13, 2019
5
24
While all this is going on I just want to let you all know that I'm going to marry Casper and give her everything that will always make her happy all the time. Dont fight me about this.

(the transition between ep 2 and 3 was handled badly - sam is entirely justified in being pissed because the mc abandoned her, showed up, said he wouldnt abandon her anymore, and then promptly ghosted her again - but we didnt see that from her perspective, or even from the MC's perspective, so her reaction feels a bit jarring. It's not a Literal Crime but its a real dick move and most human beings would be pissed in her situation.
I didn't like the whole being forced into a job by akira thing, but thats me as a person not the mc as a character.
I think its pretty clear the dev has a story they're telling about a particular character, rather than providing a blank slate for the player to inhabit, and that comes with plusses and minuses. some times the character's actions just won't sit right with the player, but that's where the story is gonna go.)
 
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While I generally agree with you, to be fair, Sam is the least stretch of them all because she does actually attempt to punch the MC, which IS abuse by definition. Still, it's a bit much to call her abusive because she's a hurt, immature woman lashing out. Is it a double standard? Absolutely, but men and women aren't the same, so standards are different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Although it is technically abuse, I honestly don't have a problem with that scene with Sam because you have a choice in the matter to get hit or not. I let her hit me because I hoped it would be cathartic and help calm her down so we could talk.

Choices matter in these games. They are what makes them games and not just a regular story.
 

cayseron

Member
Apr 28, 2022
242
310
Although it is technically abuse, I honestly don't have a problem with that scene with Sam because you have a choice in the matter to get hit or not. I let her hit me because I hoped it would be cathartic and help calm her down so we could talk.

Choices matter in these games. They are what makes them games and not just a regular story.
yes and no to be honest. it is objectively true that some game's choices have much bigger impact that others but also every now and then there is a game where choices feel redundant and i think this is one of them. Does that make it a bad game, not at all. but my point is, sometimes games are meant to be taken as visual novels they are and just enjoy the story rather than focus on the impact of the choices. Yes it takes away from players involvement but its like judging the book for narrative plotpoint you didnt like, you will still read the rest of the book and in the end you will enjoy it in spite of not liking some bits here and there even though you had no choice in the matter of how things played out.
I feel strongly that this will be one of those games where you will not have any impact to how story plays out especially since it is obvious that protagonist is not a blank state character so you dont have to build who mc is. you as a player are viewing party and not a participant. Choices are there to make you pick which lewd scenes you are interested and which not... other than that good 80% of choices were meaningless or outright trolling the players (like the choice about bothering akira in library or going to basement in the last scene) but that is the humor of this games creator and i am just rolling with it.
TLDR:
no i dont think choices really matter in this game to extent it is worth mentioning it.
 
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4.50 star(s) 57 Votes