RPGM Abandoned Valiant Warrior Astrid [v0.5.2] [Dynamiteredgames]

[Jove76]

I don't recall saying anything against his integrity. But you're wrong when you say that he doesn't owe anyone anything. There is an implied contract between patrons and the artists they patronize. He does owe it to his patrons to let them know if he has abandoned this project.

So, having clarified, I'll reiterate my previous statement. If he just ditched this game, then shame on him.

Real life problems happen, certainly, as do joyous events. And, yes, people can get burned out. It does happen. But if no serious disaster has befallen him, then he owes it to the people who have supported him to either finish the game or give us notice of its abandonment. And, if it were possible to owe anything to a story which you've created (I maintain that it's not possible.), then I would say that he owes it to this excellent game to finish it.

I must agree, at least philosophically. I do not know about the "he owes the patrons" argument, because that was never any contractual agreement - no one forces anyone to contribute via Patreon. You, or anyone else, contributes fundamentally as payment for work he has already done (and to help enable/encourage him to do further work), but at no point are you paying him to work today or tomorrow. He owes you, as a patron of his art, nothing. If he gave you something you deem to be significant to your enjoyment of life, then you owe him - not the other way around. However, I do agree that he "owes" his art. Though I do completely agree that if the creator decided abandon work on the project, he should tell his patrons that. It is poor behavior to continue to profit from such a format as Patreon if one knows they have no intention of ever putting effort into that product again (though we have no idea if that is the case in this instance).

GRR Martin does not owe fans of his novels a conclusion. They bought the books he wrote and nothing further is promised. But i would argue that he owes the characters he created a conclusion to that narrative. In that context, your assertion is correct.

 

[FookU2]

I must agree, at least philosophically. I do not know about the "he owes the patrons" argument, because that was never any contractual agreement - no one forces anyone to contribute via Patreon. You, or anyone else, contributes fundamentally as payment for work he has already done (and to help enable/encourage him to do further work), but at no point are you paying him to work today or tomorrow. He owes you, as a patron of his art, nothing. If he gave you something you deem to be significant to your enjoyment of life, then you owe him - not the other way around. However, I do agree that he "owes" his art. Though I do completely agree that if the creator decided abandon work on the project, he should tell his patrons that. It is poor behavior to continue to profit from such a format as Patreon if one knows they have no intention of ever putting effort into that product again (though we have no idea if that is the case in this instance).

GRR Martin does not owe fans of his novels a conclusion. They bought the books he wrote and nothing further is promised. But i would argue that he owes the characters he created a conclusion to that narrative. In that context, your assertion is correct.

That's what the comment meant by "owes the patrons." He owes it to the patrons to at least tell them whether he quit, or simply is taking a break. It's simply common courtesy to not leave people hanging. Tell your supporters SOMETHING...."I'm abandoning this project...due to ...blah, blah, blah..." ... or "I'm taking a much needed break to deal with life..." or something similar, to at least let people know what's going on.
That said...I've wondered if something happened to the dev. I rarely see devs just ghost their supporters. Usually, they will make a post about what's going on. It's only fair.

 

[TheLecher]

I do not know about the "he owes the patrons" argument, because that was never any contractual agreement - no one forces anyone to contribute via Patreon. You, or anyone else, contributes fundamentally as payment for work he has already done (and to help enable/encourage him to do further work), but at no point are you paying him to work today or tomorrow.

You've got the whole concept of patronage exactly backwards. Patrons don't pay artists anything for work they've already done. The whole point of patronage is that the patrons are supporting the artist for the sake of their current and future work. An artist who isn't producing anything, or at least working toward producing something, is therefore betraying the implied contract between the artist and the patron.

Also, you seem to have overlooked the word "implied' in my phrase "implied contract." I didn't say anything about a legally binding contract which could be enforced in a court of law. I talked about an implied contract, which serves as the basis of the patron/artist relationship, and which has always formed that basis, for as long as artists have had patrons.

So you're mistaken. I'm not paying him anything for work he has already done. And I never had any intention of doing so. I'm paying him to work today and tomorrow, which is exactly the thing which you suggest I'm not paying him to do. (Or I would be paying him, if he were to post an update, since that's how he has his Patreon account set up.)

If you were to say the exact opposite of what you said, then you would be right.

He owes you, as a patron of his art, nothing. If he gave you something you deem to be significant to your enjoyment of life, then you owe him - not the other way around.

And here again, I maintain that you've gotten it exactly backwards. Yes, he does owe his patrons something. No, I don't owe him anything for the work which he has already produced, even though I enjoyed it.

Or, as Willy Wonka said, "Strike that. Reverse it."

However, I do agree that he "owes" his art.

Well, we actually don't agree on that, either. I said that, if it were possible for an artist to owe something to their creation, then I would say that DRG owes it to this excellent game to see it through to the end. But I also stated that I don't actually believe that artists (or any creator) can owe something to their creation.

We do, however, agree that, if DRG is still alive, and has no intention of completing this project, he should inform his supporters of that fact. So at least we agree on something.

 

[Fenix34]

this thread became a lot of reading.

 

[FookU2]

[ just kickin' back, laptop in lap, drinkin' muh beer, and enjoying the fun reads.... ]

Cheers!! lol \m/ \m/

 

[Jove76]

You've got the whole concept of patronage exactly backwards. Patrons don't pay artists anything for work they've already done. The whole point of patronage is that the patrons are supporting the artist for the sake of their current and future work. An artist who isn't producing anything, or at least working toward producing something, is therefore betraying the implied contract between the artist and the patron.

Also, you seem to have overlooked the word "implied' in my phrase "implied contract." I didn't say anything about a legally binding contract which could be enforced in a court of law. I talked about an implied contract, which serves as the basis of the patron/artist relationship, and which has always formed that basis, for as long as artists have had patrons.

So you're mistaken. I'm not paying him anything for work he has already done. And I never had any intention of doing so. I'm paying him to work today and tomorrow, which is exactly the thing which you suggest I'm not paying him to do. (Or I would be paying him, if he were to post an update, since that's how he has his Patreon account set up.)

If you were to say the exact opposite of what you said, then you would be right.



And here again, I maintain that you've gotten it exactly backwards. Yes, he does owe his patrons something. No, I don't owe him anything for the work which he has already produced, even though I enjoyed it.

Or, as Willy Wonka said, "Strike that. Reverse it."



Well, we actually don't agree on that, either. I said that, if it were possible for an artist to owe something to their creation, then I would say that DRG owes it to this excellent game to see it through to the end. But I also stated that I don't actually believe that artists (or any creator) can owe something to their creation.

We do, however, agree that, if DRG is still alive, and has no intention of completing this project, he should inform his supporters of that fact. So at least we agree on something.

"Patrons" make donations, or gifts - "employers" make payment for services rendered. An employer may expect agreed upon services for what is being paid for - gifts are not "contractual", either legal or implied. But please feel free to tell me three more times how backwards my perception is.

 

[TheLecher]

"Patrons" make donations, or gifts - "employers" make payment for services rendered. An employer may expect agreed upon services for what is being paid for - gifts are not "contractual", either legal or implied. But please feel free to tell me three more times how backwards my perception is.

Of course a gift can be contractual. Engagement rings? Contractual gifts. Gifts from patrons to artists, given for the express purpose of enabling current and or future work on artistic projects? Contractual gifts.

The implied contract between patrons and artists is and has always been that the patrons provide material support to the artist, in order that the artist can pursue their art. If the artist accepts these gifts, but does not pursue their art, then they have broken the implied contract.

Now, admittedly, DRG is in a slightly different position, since he has set up his Patreon account to bill patrons only on the release of a new update. With that in mind, he could probably argue (and perhaps successfully) that he doesn't have the same obligation which other developers who are supported on Patreon would have. Nevertheless, I would maintain that, at the very least, he owes it to his patrons to let us know if he has abandoned the project.

 

[FookU2]

"Patrons" make donations, or gifts - "employers" make payment for services rendered. An employer may expect agreed upon services for what is being paid for - gifts are not "contractual", either legal or implied. But please feel free to tell me three more times how backwards my perception is.

As an ex real estate agent, I can promise you this, Contractual Gifts, with contractual agreements, do exist, contrary to much belief.
As far as actually owing something to the patrons or artwork: whether the dev owes anyone or not, it's still more respectable to let people know what is going on, regardless what the issue is, and regardless who owes or doesn't owe something.

 

[Jove76]

As an ex real estate agent, I can promise you this, Contractual Gifts, with contractual agreements, do exist, contrary to much belief.
As far as actually owing something to the patrons or artwork: whether the dev owes anyone or not, it's still more respectable to let people know what is going on, regardless what the issue is, and regardless who owes or doesn't owe something.

noun: gift; plural noun: gifts

1. 1.
   a thing given willingly to someone without payment

You may redefine a word to suit your argument, if you desire. You may frame or contextualize it, or put the word "contractual" in front of it. You can also order a "bread-less sandwich". It is a castle on the sand, in my opinion - everyone objectively understands that a "gift" in the true sense, is not a a part of a trade. (An engagement ring is not a gift). I will concede the point, however, as the fact that we can not even agree what words still mean, implies that further interactions are unlikely to bare fruit.

 

[TheLecher]

You may redefine a word to suit your argument, if you desire.

There's no need to redefine it. Both FookU2 and I used the word correctly, while prefacing it with the term "contractual." While you may want to fall back on a simple dictionary definition to support your argument, you already know perfectly well that the meaning of a word within the context of daily usage can contain nuances and variations which are not included in the dictionary. And how am I certain that you already know this? Because every person who communicates with other people uses language in this way, and is able to understand other people's use of language in this way.

(An engagement ring is not a gift).

It most certainly is. This is why some courts have ruled that a woman can keep the engagement ring after breaking off the engagement. On the other hand, other courts have ruled that the woman had to return the ring after breaking the engagement, thus illustrating that the gift had a contractual implication.

I will concede the point, however, as the fact that we can not even agree what words still mean, implies that further interactions are unlikely to bare fruit.

Concede the point, if you like. But I don't get upset when people don't agree with me and choose to argue point and counterpoint. So if you don't agree with me, feel free to say so. Just realize that I'll probably have a response.

 

[UncleVT]

Please, stop the off topic discussion or move to other place (PMs, General Discussions) Let's back to talk about the game.

 

[Big Mountain]

are there any news?
is someone here still a patreon ?

 

[Justjorge]

are there any news?
is someone here still a patreon ?

No news. Apparantly his account is still active but he hasn't made an update or even a comment in 5 months. Sucks cuz this was my fave game.

 

[Hoboy]

Well - as I stated before I will continue to hope this rekindles. Very few western devs deal well with exhibitionism, but this was at the top. I will keep the candle burning...

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

Well - as I stated before I will continue to hope this rekindles. Very few western devs deal well with exhibitionism, but this was at the top. I will keep the candle burning...

I actually kind of worry about Dynamite. Total silence since November 2018, and back then he was posting about test animations for the coming version. I hope there wasn't a meltdown or something.

Like I'd assume everyone else on this thread, I really loved the game. There was so much potential, still a ton of stuff that could happen, both in terms of Astrid's sexuality and in terms of the game and its overall plot. Unfortunately, as far as I have found, there's nowhere else to check on him except Patreon. I haven't found any social media contacts or a website for him.

 

[Maphis]

I check back here every now and then for the slight hope there might be a comeback. I hope the creator is doing okay, seems unnatural for someone to make something this good then suddenly up and leave without any notice.

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

I check back here every now and then for the slight hope there might be a comeback. I hope the creator is doing okay, seems unnatural for someone to make something this good then suddenly up and leave without any notice.

Right? It's not like there were warning signs, like talk about feeling unwell, life getting hectic, or anything of the kind. It's very odd and a bit worrying.

 

[ana1omnomnom]

Also one of my favorites. Keeping an eye on this one just in case...

 

[Wet & Wild Production]

Right? It's not like there were warning signs, like talk about feeling unwell, life getting hectic, or anything of the kind. It's very odd and a bit worrying.

Indeed and it wouldn't be the first time something like this happened. But in this case, it's really sad, because this is/was a very promising project.

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

Indeed and it wouldn't be the first time something like this happened. But in this case, it's really sad, because this is/was a very promising project.

Says the developer of another very promising project! I love where you've gone with Alenja so far!

To avoid going too far off-topic, though, as another developer, I would guess you almost certainly have a better appreciation for how odd this is. Dynamite is the developer of a successful, high-quality game and just suddenly goes dark? It's just unsettling, if nothing else.