- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
So since he had the poor judgement of not properly planning ahead & setting realistic deadlines for himself, it's reasonable to dogpile on him & presume the game is abandoned after what, 2, 3 weeks since his last post?
- Thread starter Oiz
- Start date
- Jul 25, 2017
- 758
- 2,437
Since 4 month, his last release.
Many shady devs make games, release some updates and when the money come they push back the next release with excuses, preview of the next release, etc.. until they disappears and people have pledge for 4, 5 or 6 month before the dev vanish completely.
I really hope this is not the case here, I kinda like this game and I don't mind to pledge (again) for something I like.
- Aug 8, 2017
- 153
- 235
In theory, it should be easy to combat this with Patreon. Once one of my devs stops updating (or the game goes a direction I don't like) I can stop pledging. I don't understand why more people don't do that. I was a patron for Marvel and really liked this game, but I moved my pledge to another game a few months ago when he went MIA. Too bad because I really do like this game. I hope he comes back, but if he does, I'm not sure I would pledge again because he's ghosted for this long.
- Jun 8, 2017
- 577
- 1,170
Totally agree. I had the same problem with Nverjos from Coceter Chronicles. I really liked the game, was a patron for several months and then he suddenly went MIA. I stopped pledging after about a month witout any word (I'm not talking about updates, he just vanished completely.)
He came back after ~3 moths and is actually quiet active again, so I guess he actually overcame whatever problems he had, but honestly, I'm not planing on becoming a patron again. I can't "forgive" (I know, way too pretentious, that's why I used the quotes) this total lack of communication.
If somebody has personal problems I'm the last person to demand anything from them, but seriously, people trust these people with their money, the least they can do is keep them informed. I don't need any details, just something like "I won't be able to work on the game due to personal issues. I understand if you want to stop your patronage and hope you will be coming back once I return". There is also the possibility to change the payment method, so patrons only get charged per update.
@kirsek MIA means "Missing In Action", it's a military term. It means somebody vanished and is presumed dead. Here it means a dev stopped all communicatons with their patrons.
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
Yeah I understand all that. However, you have to take these things on a case by case basis. For example, just look at berny's comment. He bailed on a dev he was supporting after 1 month of no communication. Now that dev is back at work & very active but he is still withholding support because he feels that lack of communication was "unforgivable". Well what if so many of that dev's other patrons took the same attitude & now the amount of funding is no longer adequate to cover the costs of making the game, resulting in a delayed or sub par remainder to the game, or killing it off completely? Sure you could argue that the dev should have communicated better, just like with Marvel. The end result is still a compromised or unfinished game. I personally feel that in such a case, the impatient patrons whom bailed out share some of the responsibility for the end result, as their impatience had a direct impact on the end result.
On that same token, keep this in mind. For most devs out there, they have their own lives. Full time jobs, some balancing jobs & school, some balancing work, family, etc... & maybe they only have a few hours a week to dedicate to a side project like this. Many of them also may not have the financial means to make the games on their own & rely on the patreon funds to cover the cost of making them, so if their patreon dips too low, the funds just aren't there to make progress. Sometimes they have a lot going on in their life that needs immediate attention & putting out updates on Patreon isn't as urgent as attending to those RL demands, especially since an update like "issues A, B & C are going on in my life right now & I have to deal with these before I can make time for the game. I do still intend to finish it, but I don't know when that will be" will be just as likely, if not more likely to cause people to say "AAAHHHH PANIC! THE GAME IS ABANDONED! PULL YOUR SUPPORT! THE GAME ISN'T HAPPENING NOW!" Plus if the events going on in their life are particularly stressful or dealing with some sort of crisis, things like a small game they are making will often be the last thing on their minds.
As for devs that just slap together a shitty alpha build to milk Patrons for money & string them along as long as they can before vanishing, yeah I know that happens a lot. What also happens a lot is devs with very limited time & financial resources will start a game, get some patrons, won't work fast enough to appease their patrons whom bail on them & leave them in a position with loads of people complaining that they aren't working fast enough, others criticizing the game, (which ALL devs here get in heaps), & wondering why they should continue to spend their limited free time & own pocket money continuing to work on the game at all, which often results in them saying "fuck it", pulling the plug & spending their time & money on things they enjoy more. I'd even be willing to bet that some, (though not all), of the ones that are viewed as "milking patreon to scam their patrons" were those same devs that got sick of all the demands & criticism & just didn't want to deal with it anymore.
As for no updates in 5 months, Shit, Millions of people have been waiting for Half Life 3 for over 10 years. I've been waiting for Borderlands 3 since 2014 & Freebird games hasn't released a new game since Finding Paradise back in December of last year. & these are BIG game studios who's full time job is to make games with actual big studio budgets & resources & teams of specialists with college degrees in making this shit, not individual laypeople whom work on these games in what free time they can borrow after work, family & other obligations have consumed the rest & operating on a budget of whatever they can afford on their own personal PC & what they can manage from their own finances & whatever they can get on Patreon. So setting the demands so much higher for these people than bigger studios whom exist only to make games is frankly idiotic.
My point is, These people aren't Valve or Gearbox or any other big studio who make a living creating games. You're not dealing with big businesses. These are hobbyists whom try to fit in bits & pieces of progress from a mix of their own funds & Patreon, (sometimes the more successful ones can fund it just with Patreon), & doing it when they can get the free time to do it. & sometimes things happen in life that causes hobbies like this to be delayed or put on hold, (such as oh I dunno... a major surgery). It happens to everyone whom lives on their own & has to support themselves. We, as the consuming base should be aware & considerate of that. The sad reality though is 99% of you people aren't. You just want your games & you want them yesterday & dammit, if the shitty dev doesn't deliver to your expectations they are just the biggest pieces of shit ever. That is the problem. There is such an attitude of entitlement from the user base that I'm not surprised more devs don't say "fuck you all, I'm out", ESPECIALLY considering the fact that the vast majority of them aren't even paying patrons & download the game here for free. As for many of the ones that do pay, They have an attitude of "Hey, I gave you a few shekels, now drop everything & make my game now! What? you have to maintain your job to support your family? Your wife was in a car accident & is in the hospital? I don't care. I paid $5 to your Patreon so I own you until I get my damn game". It's bullshit. I myself run my own business & often will be working on a big project like finishing board repair on a stack of macbooks that I need to get back to a reseller with a deadline & will have customers coming to me with a laptop with something like a bad hard drive or viruses from sketchy porn websites. When I tell them it will be a few days before I can fix it, they get irate & demand that I drop everything & immediately fix their computer because "they are a paying customer", even after I explain to them that I'm swamped with work that I have to finish for a much higher paying customer on a deadline. If they keep being demanding, I just give them their money back & tell them to fuck off & find someone else to fix their shit. I don't put up with that kind of bullshit. Just because you throw a few shekels at me that doesn't make me your bitch. The little bit of income that one customer provides doesn't justify putting a higher paying customer whom was there first on the back burner, so if they get that kind of attitude they can fuck right off. The problem with those customers is the same as the problem between devs & the customer base here. The consumers are way to impatient & entitled. They want their game & they want it NOW! & they don't give a shit about the fact that the dev is most likely an individual person doing this in their free time with their own shit going on in their life. They just think "GIMME IT! IT'S MINE!"
Now having said all that, yes I know there are a lot of sketchy & scammy devs & yes I know Marvel & other dev's should have communicated better. I don't dispute that. That again is why I said YOU HAVE TO TAKE THESE ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS! & in this case, I think that it's less of the dev being in the wrong & more of a case of the consumer base yelling "GIMME IT! IT'S MINE!"
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
By the way, you still didn't answer the question. Stop dodging it. His eyesight has deteriorated, Can't see the computer monitor well enough to type up an update, how does he communicate it?
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
His last post was less than a month ago & he just underwent eye surgery. What do you mean ghosted?
- Aug 8, 2017
- 153
- 235
Wow @Demitrius p - that is quite the manifesto. I both agree with and disagree with points you made. I am well aware that the vast majority of these devs have others lives and this is a hobby for them. That is fine. I understand that. However, as @Glorious Cat pointed out
Let's say you are a regular at a bar and have a favorite bartender that you always tip well and he/she always takes care of you. Then all of a sudden the bartender stops showing up to work, and doesn't respond to your messages at all, do you still tip the bartender even if he/she hasn't served you a drink in 5 months? Maybe you'll find a different bar or bartender in the meantime to give your money to. That's my thought here. I don't regret being a patron of Marvel, but I also don't regret stopping my pledge 2 months ago.
My question to you is: How many months have to go by without an update for you to say that enough is enough?
You must be registered to see the links
, this dev has been delaying and delaying and yet the game hasn't been updated in 5 months and Marvel has collected $7,500 in that time for literally doing nothing. I would respect it more if Marvel would have suspended his campaign temporarily while he was going through his personal stuff, instead of continuing to collect money from people - or change his patreon to charge per update. Or hell, just communicated a little bit during the past 5 months.Let's say you are a regular at a bar and have a favorite bartender that you always tip well and he/she always takes care of you. Then all of a sudden the bartender stops showing up to work, and doesn't respond to your messages at all, do you still tip the bartender even if he/she hasn't served you a drink in 5 months? Maybe you'll find a different bar or bartender in the meantime to give your money to. That's my thought here. I don't regret being a patron of Marvel, but I also don't regret stopping my pledge 2 months ago.
My question to you is: How many months have to go by without an update for you to say that enough is enough?
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
I understand where you are coming from & likewise I also agree with some points. HE should have done a better job at communicating what has been going on & yeah I also think switching to a per update billing method would have been better ideas. Make no mistake, I'm not claiming he is without his share of responsibility. That being said, I think we both know that suspending it would have been a HORRIBLE idea because we BOTH know that the instant he would have done that, the OP would have slapped an abandoned tag on this game because that is how this community is. Frankly I'm surprised you even suggested that when you should have known that would be the outcome.
That being said, I think your bartender analogy is a bit overly generalized & isn't a good apples to apples comparison. Additionally, I don't think it's quite honest in your representaion of events, (hence why I asked earlier what you meant by ghosted). You keep presenting it as though he just disappeared. Well that is not is not correct. He has been communicating & his last post was less than a month ago. You can't legitimately claim someone ghosted if there has still be active communication. So I'm sorry but your representation is not accurate.
So I'll modify it so that it more accurately reflects the situation. Same scenario, except the bartender does this as a hobby in addition to their full time job & while they haven't served a drink in 5 months, they HAVE in fact been communicating with you what has been going on, including informing you that they recently underwent eye surgery. With these other KEY RELEVANT DETAILS accounted for, I think it changes the picture quite a bit.
So to answer your question, would I still continue to tip this bartender? Maybe. I guess it all depends on ones own values. If all you care about is getting a drink & if that bartender can't do it when you want your drink you go elsewhere than that is your call. However if it was a bartender that you valued, as your scenario seems to claim, & you know that one of the contributing factors, if not the main contributing factor of their absence was a recent surgery, I'd have a bit of investment into hoping they recover & when they did return to their bartending duties, yeah I'd be inclined to start tipping again. However I CERTAINLY would NOT be trashing him & calling for someone to fire & replace him because he isn't prioritizing getting me muh damn beer ahead of recovering from his surgery like so many others here have, which is exactly the point that I have been making.
- Jul 19, 2017
- 907
- 2,245
No, the thread would have received an ON HOLD tag, much like Flamecito's It's a New World Out There got after Puerto Rico was blasted back into the stone age by a hurricane. Flamecito probably had to send communication via a message in a bottle, but he did it and told all of his patrons to stop sending money to his Patreon. This is why he'll be welcomed back with open arms by patrons and members here while these other devs who make up stories about being held hostage by a gang of nazi pitbulls are ridiculed.
- Oct 10, 2017
- 7,568
- 21,643
You guys are trying to convince someone who let go of the facts a long time ago. Good luck with that 
x'Dx'Dx'D
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
Ok let's start from the top. No, actually comparing Patreon developers to Bigger studios is NOT idiotic, at least in the context of the way I did. These studios have massive budgets, large teams with college degrees & high end equipment & resources at their disposal, work on these games full time, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week all year long, & people have no problem waiting months or even years for them to put out a game, yet when it's just an individual layperson with no formal training, very little free time outside their other real life obligations, far less resources & equipment & often their own personal funds, (Which is a fact given that many devs who makes these games make less than $100 a month on Patreon), people expect them to keep cranking out the material & fuck them if they don't. The point is, you are putting much higher expectations on unskilled hobbyists with way less time & resources to create games than you do on the more skilled & WAY better funded & equipped game studies that do this for a living. THAT is idiotic.
As for my "white knighting" getting rediculous, with all due respect, go fuck yourself dude. I ain't white knighting for shit. I call out bullshit when I see it. That applies equally to sketchy devs as much as it does to overly entitled consumers. I'm just pointing out reality. Get pissed & butthurt all you want, but the reality is, everything I have said are demonstrable FACTS. Deal with it.
Moving on to Patreon, personally I don't give a shit who you do or don't donate to. It's your money, do with it whatever you want. Personally if I was making a game, I woud'nt use Patreon because I don't have the patience for all the idiots who yell "I DONATED A FEW SHEKELS, NOW DO WHAT I WANT!" That being said, as far as the price difference between paying $5 to $10 a month over x amount of months vs paying the cost of a big studio game goes, one BIG difference that you failed to take notice of is the fact that paying patrons are by FAR the small minority of the playing base of almost all of these games. I mean you are aware that your donations are subsidizing all the people whom download the game for free from sites like this right? Regardless, whether or not you choose to support them or not isn't even the issue here. The issue is all these self entitled cunts who keep screaming for an update & getting outraged when the dev just had optical surgery less than 2 months ago. News flash, the guy needs to be able to see in order to work on the game & surgery like that usually takes some time to recover from. It's moronic to expect someone to be able to get right back to work after that kind of surgery.
It's especially ironic seeing as how you yourself stated that the purpose of Patreon is for supporting the dev. Well part of that would naturally include having the common sense to understand that if they just underwent optical surgery, maybe it's going to take some time for them to recover before they can continue the game. Internal consistency, Do you speak it man?
As for your claims of no communication for months, again, that is demonstrably false. Glorious cat here even provided a condensed timeline of the Dev's communications, the last of which was less than a month ago.
So you can sit there claiming I'm "white knighting" till your dick falls off. The fact is, I'm the one dealing with reality & demonstrable & observable FACTS. You're the one making claims that are easily disproven such as claiming he hasn't communicated, etc... & expecting someone to just crank out material at your beck & call like this is what they should be doing 24/7.
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
Well I can't argue that. Maybe the OP would have put an ON HOLD tag on here. My apologies if I was a bit overly hyperbolic. On that same token though, you & I both know that with many games here, if anything shy of "everything's moving along & a new update will be out tomorrow" is posted at least once a week, the threads go crazy with speculation that it's abandoned.
BTW there was a dev who claimed that they were being held hostage by a gang of nazi pitbulls? Really? I gott see that. XD
On that same token, yeah I do agree that the dev should have changed the billing to a per update cycle or told donors to stop for the time being. Like I said before, I don't find the dev without fault either. My whole point is that the people who keep screeching for an update & claiming that it's been abandoned when the guy had optical surgery less than 2 months ago are being unrealistic & overly entitled, especially since the vast majority of them don't contribute a single red cent to the guys Patreon & just want the content for free here.
- Oct 10, 2017
- 7,568
- 21,643
Funny to hear beacuse that exactly what you are ignoring altogether from the very start.
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
Who are you referring to?You guys are trying to convince someone who let go of the facts a long time ago. Good luck with that
x'Dx'Dx'D
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
Really? People claiming that the dev ghosted & just disapeared with no communication when there is demonstrable & observable evidence to the contrary in this very thread here? Yeah sure I'm the one that is ignoring facts. SO do tell, What facts EXACTLY have I been ignoring? What details have I been incorrect on hm? Be specific.
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
- Apr 14, 2018
- 609
- 863
Oh, & FYI, I decided to check the guys PAtreon page out for myself & look what I found in the maRCH 31'ST update that all the naysayers convieniently ignored. Looks like he actually did try pausing donations after all. Again @Ennoch, Who's the one refusing to deal with facts?
And about donations ... This month I will not take money from you. I don't know if there is an option to disable donates. It will be very difficult for me to find this function due to the reasons described above. Even this post I write through tears)) In general, Just do not donate to me this month. I should feel better the other day and I will return to work. It's good that there is not much work left.
If you need screenshots I can post those too, or better yet, just go to his Patreon & look for yourself. Looks like in previous months he also had electrical issues. Thanks for proving me even more right.
@rodneyeatme so, considering that this shows that Marvel at least tried to conduct his own Patreon the same way Flamecito did, given your statements earlier, he should be getting better treatment, so you agree that the manner in which he is currently being addressed is uncalled for then correct? I hope so, otherwise you would not be internally consistent.
And about donations ... This month I will not take money from you. I don't know if there is an option to disable donates. It will be very difficult for me to find this function due to the reasons described above. Even this post I write through tears)) In general, Just do not donate to me this month. I should feel better the other day and I will return to work. It's good that there is not much work left.
If you need screenshots I can post those too, or better yet, just go to his Patreon & look for yourself. Looks like in previous months he also had electrical issues. Thanks for proving me even more right.
@rodneyeatme so, considering that this shows that Marvel at least tried to conduct his own Patreon the same way Flamecito did, given your statements earlier, he should be getting better treatment, so you agree that the manner in which he is currently being addressed is uncalled for then correct? I hope so, otherwise you would not be internally consistent.
- Oct 10, 2017
- 7,568
- 21,643
This is exactly what i'm talking about. You are just keep pretending you are right and you barely even hear yourself, let alone others. You present those things as proof. Oh they are facts alright, yet they don't prove your point at all. Even if you try to present them in such a conext now. So this conversation isn't about fact at all again, you already decided you are right and i am wrong, no matter what i'd say would change it otherwise.
Like.. this. You didn't even wait my response and here you are already stating that i proved you "more right" and thus, indirectly, that i'm wrong.. even before i could say a word in my defence, you already certain i'm guilty as charged, by you. And you talk about caring about evidence? Yeah, you sure cared a lot about hearing me out....