VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[BobTheDuck]

View attachment 3173525

I want to understand this better. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But, decisions in the old WIAB existed to change your story, as in all AVNs. Whether it is canonical or not depends on whether it is the story common to all routes or not. Pregnancy belonged to a particular route, Katie's war, the prison scene, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Now, if you're talking about the canon leading up to SG, it didn't matter back then. Those issues were emphasized only when Ocean takes full control of SG (like the appearance of Victoria and Maja's parents... are they still sisters?).
And about the crucial points, we already know them, at least until the trial. What happens in between and how it happens is what changes. As well as the development of characters that in the old WIAB still had no stage presence.

What you’re suggesting is that because the previous iteration of the game didn’t progress far enough in its narrative for us to truly appreciate the consequences of our choices that there were no consequences, which isn’t the case. There certainly were enough elements in play (and Oceans own comments) that there was a definite cause and effect to certain actions.

For instance, there was a mechanic that allowed the player to enable the possibility of pregnancy with the love interests, which Ocean warned would have effects on the different relationships the player wished to pursue. Likewise it was something Ocean often said was a critical part of his intention- you couldn’t form a harem, but there would ultimately be different love interests (and occasionally throuples) that the protagonist would end up with based on certain choices.

That’s a far cry from the game essentially becoming a kinetic novel where we only watch and read the narrative unfold without any diverging paths or meaningful choice.

I'll quote you both together, as it's basically the same reply from me: if the consequences are not yet published, then the choices have no discernable outcome and the experience is kinetic. I don't enjoy a game by looking through the code. Okay, I'll admit, I never explored being an asshole to Katie, so there's something else other than the prison that was not kinetic or cosmetic. I consider cosmetic choices to be choices that don't change the plot in any meaningful way, they exist purely to allow players to either skip lewd scenes for kinks they don't like, characters they don't like or provide an illusion of choice (ie in an RPG you might be offered the choice to save a person or let them fall, but the plot requires them to fall, so your attempt is in vain, you have the roleplay, and maybe one dialgogue in the endgame changes colour to reflect you tried but not enough).

What I mean but the plot basically reconverging is the same as semi non-linear RPGS - they have a main plot threaded through, you make choices on the way, but those choices don't alter the fixed point's basic essence, maybe just flavour the dialogue slightly. It's a way to allow choice and flavour the end game, while still having basically the same antagonist. It's super rare for example to have a game where you can completely side with the antagonist and decide the world isn't worth saving.

My belief is WiaB will follow a similar path - the player will have choices, but there is a canon ending to match SG. Maybe if Leia gets pregnant, she'll always have an abortion in the end game. Or maybe if she doesn't get pregnant, she'll find someone else to be a sperm donor. End result in either case is that if Leia being pregnant is required for a character is SG, it will happen, if Leia pregnant isn't canon, regardless of Willi's choices, she'll make her own. That's the easiest way to get around plot inconsistencies between the two.

From what we know from SG, Willi was pretty active if the the whole team was taking back shots from him, so harem or not, there is expected to be a fair bit of promiscuity.

And as I say, I'm talling about playing the WiaB game(s) in (their) current form, not about the code and plans. Having completely different paths that lead to different outcomes is just not going to happen - ZPR will become a thing, so common ground is required between certain WiaB elements regardless of choice now.

This is just my opinion, Ocean doesn't listen to me at all, so feel free to disagree with me loudly, it's not a hill I really care to die on.

 

[sorco2003]

I'll quote you both together, as it's basically the same reply from me: if the consequences are not yet published, then the choices have no discernable outcome and the experience is kinetic. I don't enjoy a game by looking through the code. Okay, I'll admit, I never explored being an asshole to Katie, so there's something else other than the prison that was not kinetic or cosmetic. I consider cosmetic choices to be choices that don't change the plot in any meaningful way, they exist purely to allow players to either skip lewd scenes for kinks they don't like, characters they don't like or provide an illusion of choice (ie in an RPG you might be offered the choice to save a person or let them fall, but the plot requires them to fall, so your attempt is in vain, you have the roleplay, and maybe one dialgogue in the endgame changes colour to reflect you tried but not enough).

What I mean but the plot basically reconverging is the same as semi non-linear RPGS - they have a main plot threaded through, you make choices on the way, but those choices don't alter the fixed point's basic essence, maybe just flavour the dialogue slightly. It's a way to allow choice and flavour the end game, while still having basically the same antagonist. It's super rare for example to have a game where you can completely side with the antagonist and decide the world isn't worth saving.

My belief is WiaB will follow a similar path - the player will have choices, but there is a canon ending to match SG. Maybe if Leia gets pregnant, she'll always have an abortion in the end game. Or maybe if she doesn't get pregnant, she'll find someone else to be a sperm donor. End result in either case is that if Leia being pregnant is required for a character is SG, it will happen, if Leia pregnant isn't canon, regardless of Willi's choices, she'll make her own. That's the easiest way to get around plot inconsistencies between the two.

From what we know from SG, Willi was pretty active if the the whole team was taking back shots from him, so harem or not, there is expected to be a fair bit of promiscuity.

And as I say, I'm talling about playing the WiaB game(s) in (their) current form, not about the code and plans. Having completely different paths that lead to different outcomes is just not going to happen - ZPR will become a thing, so common ground is required between certain WiaB elements regardless of choice now.

This is just my opinion, Ocean doesn't listen to me at all, so feel free to disagree with me loudly, it's not a hill I really care to die on.

So it's not about the old WIAB, it's about how it connects to SG. On that basis, the old WIAB and the new WIAB are Kinetic novels whose sole purpose is your arrival at SG.
Interesting way of looking at it, clearly I don't agree one bit. But you have a point, it would be admitting that the total rework of WIAB was almost exclusively to turn it into "that other game that connects with SG".

 

[BobTheDuck]

So it's not about the old WIAB, it's about how it connects to SG. On that basis, the old WIAB and the new WIAB are Kinetic novels whose sole purpose is your arrival at SG.
Interesting way of looking at it, clearly I don't agree one bit. But you have a point, it would be admitting that the total rework of WIAB was almost exclusively to turn it into "that other game that connects with SG".

I mean, kinetic means there are moving parts, as opposed to a comic. To some extent, everything is a kinetic novel if the author has an end point for each story. Every RPG I've played follows the logic of a kinetic novel, with the movement being the fetch quests and the romance to 'personalise' the experience.

In other VN's when you get offered a choice 'do you wish to see it?' regards a lewd scene, it's just bad planning. A better writer puts that choice as 'brush them off' or 'make nasty remark'. A great writer puts in the effort to make a path where the LI doesn't look at you like a lost puppy if you brush them off. Regardless of those movements, if the start and end are fixed points you have a tuned string that vibrates at a pitch, there is movement in the middle, but ultimately all paths will converge to the end game. In RPGS, the post game endings show the choices in the most peripheral manner, you still fought the same boss fight. So I anticipate the same logic, give or take.

 

[sorco2003]

I mean, kinetic means there are moving parts, as opposed to a comic. To some extent, everything is a kinetic novel if the author has an end point for each story. Every RPG I've played follows the logic of a kinetic novel, with the movement being the fetch quests and the romance to 'personalise' the experience.

In other VN's when you get offered a choice 'do you wish to see it?' regards a lewd scene, it's just bad planning. A better writer puts that choice as 'brush them off' or 'make nasty remark'. A great writer puts in the effort to make a path where the LI doesn't look at you like a lost puppy if you brush them off. Regardless of those movements, if the start and end are fixed points you have a tuned string that vibrates at a pitch, there is movement in the middle, but ultimately all paths will converge to the end game. In RPGS, the post game endings show the choices in the most peripheral manner, you still fought the same boss fight. So I anticipate the same logic, give or take.

Basically, the same thing that happens in absolutely all AVNs, including SG.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Basically, the same thing that happens in absolutely all AVNs, including SG.

Exactly - so my original point is that the nature of the choices for WiaB are fixed to what moves the plot forward, and I'm pretty confident Ocean will allow plenty of flavour along the way. Original WiaB felt like the choices were almost irrelevant as the plot dragged the player around in weird ways, almost irrespective of choice.

In the rework I think we'll have more reasons to make choices, even if certain outcomes are guaranteeds, such as Ayua and ZPR. And Katie remaining a badass.

 

[sorco2003]

Exactly - so my original point is that the nature of the choices for WiaB are fixed to what moves the plot forward, and I'm pretty confident Ocean will allow plenty of flavour along the way. Original WiaB felt like the choices were almost irrelevant as the plot dragged the player around in weird ways, almost irrespective of choice.

In the rework I think we'll have more reasons to make choices, even if certain outcomes are guaranteeds, such as Ayua and ZPR. And Katie remaining a badass.

This last statement is very contradictory.

 

[Meushi]

I mean, kinetic means there are moving parts, as opposed to a comic.

That's not what kinetic novel means in the VN space though, by misusing the term you've introduced some confusion into the point you're making.

A kinetic novel is a VN with literally no choices:
f95 tag: Kinetic Novel [Used when a visual novel style game presents the player with no choices.]

You must be registered to see the links

: A kinetic novel is a VN that does not present the "player" with any choices at all; they simply read through a single unbranching story.

So a kinetic novel is very much a comic in essence. Neither WIAB or SG are kinetic novels.

 

[murphy88]

Hello, I have not been able to follow the thread lately, has the cause of the delay been explained? the last I heard was that Cap3 was coming out at the end of November or early December....

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Hello, I have not been able to follow the thread lately, has the cause of the delay been explained? the last I heard was that Cap3 was coming out at the end of November or early December....

There is a dev log just posted a page or two back..

 

[NebulousShooter]

There is a dev log just posted a page or two back..

Still 2 routes of cake's game, but since I was away I was thinking I will fo' sure come back to this thread to a dl link, sorco2003 what do you have to say in your defense?

 

[sorco2003]

Still 2 routes of cake's game, but since I was away I was thinking I will fo' sure come back to this thread to a dl link, sorco2003 what do you have to say in your defense?

That the cake´s game came out. I don't know, think about it.

 

[Ass prefer]

The game is very beautiful and the women are beautiful. the potential is great. I hope there will be a lot of sex. and regular updates.

 

[BobTheDuck]

That's not what kinetic novel means in the VN space though, by misusing the term you've introduced some confusion into the point you're making.

A kinetic novel is a VN with literally no choices:
f95 tag: Kinetic Novel [Used when a visual novel style game presents the player with no choices.]

You must be registered to see the links

: A kinetic novel is a VN that does not present the "player" with any choices at all; they simply read through a single unbranching story.

So a kinetic novel is very much a comic in essence. Neither WIAB or SG are kinetic novels.

If that's what the definition is here, I'll bow out embarrassed. But saying something is kinetic when it is static is a misuse of the term kinetic in the first place. Language adapts I guess, a rose by any other name is an elephant?

 

[slightchance]

I still dont understand the vargue language of the last SG post (no hate) I mean he said polish is done and testers dont need more than a day because the update is straight foward but in the last SG post he talks about upcoming days (which can mean anything) and also soon before chirstmas?? but I tought that the game is already at the testers that wont need longer than a dayso i am confused

What are you confused about? You've been here long enough to know that you can't trust a word they say. There are only a few exceptions. Oceanlab is just another dev in a long line people who love to bend the truth. There are no consequences to it so they will keep doing it. He probably congratulated himself for being such a hard worker when he wrote the lines about McD. Then he jerked off to it and the post nut clarity made him realise he can't do anything of what he just posted. Meh, who cares. I'll get my money. Here are some boring renders as collateral. It's all about that steam cash now.

 

[Meushi]

If that's what the definition is here, I'll bow out embarrassed. But saying something is kinetic when it is static is a misuse of the term kinetic in the first place. Language adapts I guess, a rose by any other name is an elephant?

Have a look at the VNDB link, it explains why kinetic is used in this context (not just at f95).

 

[BobTheDuck]

Have a look at the VNDB link, it explains why kinetic is used in this context (not just at f95).

I'll accept that logic, even if it triggers me despite my frequent typos. Ignore my incorrect use of the term. I still stand by my opinion of the way the plot structure will likely go, and how very few novels actually offer the marketed "meaningful choices" regardless of terminology. It's at least something to do while waiting for CH3 to appear

 

[mommysboiii]

What are you confused about? You've been here long enough to know that you can't trust a word they say. There are only a few exceptions. Oceanlab is just another dev in a long line people who love to bend the truth. There are no consequences to it so they will keep doing it. He probably congratulated himself for being such a hard worker when he wrote the lines about McD. Then he jerked off to it and the post nut clarity made him realise he can't do anything of what he just posted. Meh, who cares. I'll get my money. Here are some boring renders as collateral. It's all about that steam cash now.

I mean ocean is normaly trustworthy so i dont get the hate but I still dont understand why he cant give a date if he is already finished and the game has been tested I mean just be honest and say I wait for the router to come or there are bugs no idea what happend but I would just communicate that

 

[Cabin Fever]

If that's what the definition is here, I'll bow out embarrassed. But saying something is kinetic when it is static is a misuse of the term kinetic in the first place. Language adapts I guess, a rose by any other name is an elephant?

While I entirely agree the name Kinetic Novel is a confusing misnomer (I fell for the same confusion many many suns and moons ago too), it's not just the definition here. It's the de-facto definition for the sub-genre of VN with no choices.

 

[BobTheDuck]

While I entirely agree the name Kinetic Novel is a confusing misnomer (I fell for the same confusion many many suns and moons ago too), it's not just the definition here. It's the de-facto definition for the sub-genre of VN with no choices.

If I manage to keep that as my biggest faux pas here I guess I'll consider myself lucky

 

[Cabin Fever]

If I manage to keep that as my biggest faux pas here I guess I'll consider myself lucky

It shows good temperament when one can do a public mea culpa, unlike some that doubles down on a proven mistake...