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Maviarab

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I hit my reaction limit, so I can only react like this. More Daphne will make things better, without doubt :)(y)



Nice :) You're comment about baseline is also what I was getting at - his interactions with almost everyone are kinda falsely extroverted, at first I thought it was incosistent, but now I think it actually makes sense to his underlying character. He's mostly neutral when talking with strangers (Donna, Ben, the girl at the petrol station). He's trying to draw the connection out with people who's known from the past. The people he's comfortable with like Miru and Daphne (and probably Dylan) he just goes with his mood. After the initial awkward moments with Dana, he kinda quickly goes to his more baseline approach, while with Gina, he keeps up the banter because she does. Monica is a difficult question, because when he did her in the kitchen, he was actually into her, and he left her there when he realised he wanted Leia more. So there was attraction, he didn't use her from the start, and they both were into it. I'm guessing he doesn't know how to act around her and keeps putting his foot in it, but he also seems too smart not to realise what his words sound like to her.

I think also, when Willi and Miru talk about their detective stuff, they show their baseline. Miru clearly loves baby talk, but it's part of her play with Willi - but when they're both focused you can see their more normal intelligence levels. So yeah, Willi does mask his personality behind the way he talks with people a lot.

I'd say Helen's accident is recent, but maybe in the months old category. Leia had WZ stored in her phone, it didn't show her dialling a numbe she found written on a piece of paper. And she has Emilio, who is good at finding out secrets with his connections. We have to assume Emilio either got his connections by working with Leia (in which case she has the network to find stuff out) or she's employed him to be her network so she doesn't have to go around finding stuff out. Check through Emilio's reactions to Willi, he's never really surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if Emilio knows things about Willi that he didn't tell Leia, based on the way he said not to make eye contact, and told the girl off for saying Willi is hot. Chances are he found out a lot about Willi while finding his phone number.

So given that Emilio probably has also been around for a while, I'm thinking Leia didn't call Willi at the first opportunity, but at the point it suited her. She knows more about Helen than she says, and she doesn't actually act like she really wants to solve that - she's got another goal for having WIlli there, most likely just as someone external that she can trust, except she's too obsessive and bitter to trust anyone.
The point I'm making about the phone call (and then I'll shut up about it): Leia didn't have the issue with Helen, exhausted every avenue, then went searching for Willi's phone number. Given her obsessive nature, marking the number of days in their anniversary, starving herself when he left etc. She would've found his number to try to control when she wanted to speak. I'm sure when the situation happened with Helen, at the latest, she looked for his number, but couldn't bring herself to call it straight away. Two scenarios: 1. Leia has an ulterior goal to do with why Helen had an incident ie Helen's situation is collateral damage to Leia's plans. She does seem that cold to her family. 2. It took her that long to use the number she'd found on her phone, because of anger, resentment, sadness whatever. Or a mixture of both. I'm not sure she really does want to get to the bottom of the matter, as she's not being honest with William anyway - she's asked him to find out things she could already on her own. She could have gone to Abigail on her own, I think she sent William to Mon simply to make him feel awkward - there was nothing to really learn there. The family don't actually seem to be taking it very seriously, they've adjusted life around Helen.
Excellent, excellent posts Bob... (y)
 

BobTheDuck

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Excellent, excellent posts Bob... (y)
Thank you, out of reacts so I'll reply - I might be so far from the mark (I mean everyone likes their own theories or they wouldn't own them right? :sneaky: ), but the joy of Ocean's games is trying to guess in advance - so even if I'm wrong, the most satisfying way to play the games is to look for all the intentions, all the things hidden in our peripheral vision etc. The majority of the game is the misdirections and wild goose chases Ocean sends our thoughts on.
 

Maviarab

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Thank you, out of reacts so I'll reply - I might be so far from the mark (I mean everyone likes their own theories or they wouldn't own them right? :sneaky: ), but the joy of Ocean's games is trying to guess in advance - so even if I'm wrong, the most satisfying way to play the games is to look for all the intentions, all the things hidden in our peripheral vision etc. The majority of the game is the misdirections and wild goose chases Ocean sends our thoughts on.
Couldn't agree more...I'm pretty much with you on all you have said, very much on the same wavelength.
 

KiryuKazuma095

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Where did I say that Monica hates Katie ?
or you meant that Leia could also ask Katie to get info from Monica ? she probably did. Leia wouldn't have called MC if she didn't exhaust every other option first. She just chose not to tell MC that everyone already talked to Monica. Leia probably hoped that the shock of seeing MC again would be enough to provoke Monica into saying stuff she didn't tell anyone else.

You wanted to argue that there is still a chance MC could be involved in the accident. but Leia knows MC is the only one she could trust to have zero chance of involvement, even if she still resents him. At this point, she suspects everyone, even her own father. even if she sent everyone else to talk with Monica, she can't be sure they would tell her the truth.
I don't want to argue that William could b e involved in Helen's accident and i never said that Monica hates Katie... I said that Leia told MC that he has to speak with Monica because monica hates her as much as she despised MC for what she did...Katie needs Leia's help my friend so she will tell her the truth and she does want to find out the truth...As for the suspicion Leia has for her father ... Personally i don't see why would he want to harm her???where is the motive??
 

HiP1

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I don't want to argue that William could b e involved in Helen's accident and i never said that Monica hates Katie... I said that Leia told MC that he has to speak with Monica because monica hates her as much as she despised MC for what she did...Katie needs Leia's help my friend so she will tell her the truth and she does want to find out the truth...As for the suspicion Leia has for her father ... Personally i don't see why would he want to harm her???where is the motive??
it seems you are confusing what I say, maybe you read too quickly.

It was not about what Katie would actually do or not. it was about what Leia thinks of the others, Katie included. MC is the only one she can trusts, from her point of view. doesn't matter if Katie is on her side and also wants to find out the truth. Leia is not the kind that would trust easily once doubt sets in.
If Leia suspects Dylan, then there is a reason. She didn't disclose it to anyone yet. it might be just speculation, but still she suspects Dylan and told MC. again, it's from her perspective. it doesn't matter if Dylan has an actual motive or not in this discussion.
 

KiryuKazuma095

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it seems you are confusing what I say, maybe you read too quickly.

It was not about what Katie would actually do or not. it was about what Leia thinks of the others, Katie included. MC is the only one she can trusts, from her point of view. doesn't matter if Katie is on her side and also wants to find out the truth. Leia is not the kind that would trust easily once doubt sets in.
If Leia suspects Dylan, then there is a reason. She didn't disclose it to anyone yet. it might be just speculation, but still she suspects Dylan and told MC. again, it's from her perspective. it doesn't matter if Dylan has an actual motive or not in this discussion.
Oh , now i see your point, sorryfor the confusion ,well we will see what happened in the future of the story...
 
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HiP1

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The point I'm making about the phone call (and then I'll shut up about it): Leia didn't have the issue with Helen, exhausted every avenue, then went searching for Willi's phone number. Given her obsessive nature, marking the number of days in their anniversary, starving herself when he left etc. She would've found his number to try to control when she wanted to speak. I'm sure when the situation happened with Helen, at the latest, she looked for his number, but couldn't bring herself to call it straight away. Two scenarios: 1. Leia has an ulterior goal to do with why Helen had an incident ie Helen's situation is collateral damage to Leia's plans. She does seem that cold to her family. 2. It took her that long to use the number she'd found on her phone, because of anger, resentment, sadness whatever. Or a mixture of both. I'm not sure she really does want to get to the bottom of the matter, as she's not being honest with William anyway - she's asked him to find out things she could already on her own. She could have gone to Abigail on her own, I think she sent William to Mon simply to make him feel awkward - there was nothing to really learn there. The family don't actually seem to be taking it very seriously, they've adjusted life around Helen.

The Emilio question is what his role is in Leia's organisation. She's the head and he's the hand, but does she get him to organise her information network, or did he learn from her? He's obviously more than just a manager at the club if he's present at the lab, and he's got a high level of her trust. If he was tasked with finding Willi so Leia could contact him, that kinda makes sense that he'd uncover who he was to Leia, even more than she would let him know - the fact that he knows she gets jealous of anyone admiring Willi, says a LOT about Emilio's skills for information - there's no way Leia had a heart to heart with him.
Thanks for taking the time to write all this, bro.

my take on it was that even if she wanted to find MC early, she couldn't. MC was very hard to track down, especially since she didn't even know he went to jail for many years. that's why i think she only found his number very recently. might be a bit before the accident, but there was no real reason why. I think she exhausted all her solution after the accident, and then started the investigation to find MC who was then much easier to find (with his novel, and job, and probably social media).

to me, she sent MC to Monica to provoke a stronger reaction, hoping it would make her tell stuff out of anger or shock, that she didn't want to tell anyone. sure, she might have also wanted MC to get beaten or yelled at, too :D

that's not the kind of information Emilio would find while investigating the whereabouts of MC, actually. that's why I'm saying that he is very perceptive instead. Leia, even if she trusts him somewhat, would never disclose her feelings for MC to him, and aside from her, no one else would be able to tell him anyway. he can only piece it together by gauging her reactions. and to me, it's clear she trusts him because he knows when to stop and not push, thanks to his perception.
 

Maviarab

Dark Lord of the Coffee
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to me, she sent MC to Monica to provoke a stronger reaction, hoping it would make her tell stuff out of anger or shock, that she didn't want to tell anyone. sure, she might have also wanted MC to get beaten or yelled at, too :D
The second part. she sent him to Mon because she's a bitch....she knew he was never going to get anything more out of her...that was just a , well now you're back after leaving me...so go get yourself roasted...welcome home brother.
 
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HiP1

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The second part. she sent him to Mon because she's a bitch....she knew he was never going to get anything more out of her...that was just a , well now you're back after leaving me...so go get yourself roasted...welcome home brother.
yeah, but to me, it was more of a bonus for her. :D hoping there might be a very small chance Monica would let something slip, and also showing MC how messed up the accident and its investigation were.
 
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BobTheDuck

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yeah, but to me, it was more of a bonus for her. :D hoping there might be a very small chance Monica would let something slip, and also showing MC how messed up the accident and its investigation were.
Nothing showed that there was anything really messed up about the investigation. Leia could've simply gotten Katie (earlier) or Willi (currently) to talk with Abigail, Helen's friend. No pressure at all, and they learned almost immediately someone from above with connections in the feds shut the case down. Nothing that Mon said was important, and Leia knew that. Leia also already had Katie in her pocket and Mon is Katie's friend. Katie and Leia already know about Asavera, Leia already knows the big players that ABigail refers to. So I'm not buying Leia's strategy here, other than she wanted to mess both Willi and Mon up. She's even clearer later - she wants Willi to seduce Mon to have an insider for future intel. It's just prep for that goal.

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The other side of Leia is that she can't make her mind up. Logically, she know she needs Willi's muscle (symbolising his overt action taking chadness) to enact her plans. Emotionally she just wants to beat him up until there's a resolution in the midst of all the fighting.

d "Why the fuck did you even call me? Tell me all that crap about you needing me, and now you say 'I don't trust you'?"

This goes through all Leia's choices - her logic is losing to her emotions even as she tries to have a consistently cool, collected mask. The scene in the nightclub is a great example of that - she tries to be collected but inside she's chaos.

If It look at the Mon situation from this angle with these two considerations, Leia is testing how much control she has over William, how much he is willing to abase himself, and how much punsihment she can inflict on him. None of these goals have anything to do with helping Helen. Getting Mon as an insider is to primarily help Leia circumvent the police, not to get info about Helen. Putting WIlliam through her challenges doesn't build the trust they need to solve anything. At every point, Leia undermines Willi, despite calling him.

I think it's important to recognise that Leia is trying to sabtoage Williams return far more than anyone, and is far more antagonistic to him than Katie is. The way Katie, Leia, Dylan and Scarlet ALL know about the illegal activity, ALL know about the nightclub and pimping, ALL know about Asavera etc. and no one is doing anything as simple as asking Abigail directly like William did in a day or so, suggests they have a pretty clear idea of what's going on regardless of what Willi finds out. Willi is there not just because he can be trusted not to be part of it, but because he can sniff out the incosistencies that they're too close to tell.
 

Doomyk

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There is smthing,that i don't understand correctly last chapter.Conversation with Dylan.He said that he and Helen had a lot of ups and downs in their relationships.And losing two....That part of losing two i don't understand.Two children or what?
 
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Mortarion

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There is smthing,that i don't understand correctly last chapter.Conversation with Dylan.He said that he and Helen had a lot of ups and downs in their relationships.And losing two....That part of losing two i don't understand.Two children or what?
Most likely I'm wrong, but from the first moment on I saw this statement this was - to me - referred to the complete family and the spoken about 2nd one was - again, in my opinion - the other family member uncle Joey(?) who is returning soon from prision.

But I get the point from your PoV that this could also mean that there's maybe a miscarriage.
 
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HiP1

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Nothing showed that there was anything really messed up about the investigation. Leia could've simply gotten Katie (earlier) or Willi (currently) to talk with Abigail, Helen's friend. No pressure at all, and they learned almost immediately someone from above with connections in the feds shut the case down. Nothing that Mon said was important, and Leia knew that. Leia also already had Katie in her pocket and Mon is Katie's friend. Katie and Leia already know about Asavera, Leia already knows the big players that ABigail refers to. So I'm not buying Leia's strategy here, other than she wanted to mess both Willi and Mon up. She's even clearer later - she wants Willi to seduce Mon to have an insider for future intel. It's just prep for that goal.

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The other side of Leia is that she can't make her mind up. Logically, she know she needs Willi's muscle (symbolising his overt action taking chadness) to enact her plans. Emotionally she just wants to beat him up until there's a resolution in the midst of all the fighting.

d "Why the fuck did you even call me? Tell me all that crap about you needing me, and now you say 'I don't trust you'?"

This goes through all Leia's choices - her logic is losing to her emotions even as she tries to have a consistently cool, collected mask. The scene in the nightclub is a great example of that - she tries to be collected but inside she's chaos.

If It look at the Mon situation from this angle with these two considerations, Leia is testing how much control she has over William, how much he is willing to abase himself, and how much punsihment she can inflict on him. None of these goals have anything to do with helping Helen. Getting Mon as an insider is to primarily help Leia circumvent the police, not to get info about Helen. Putting WIlliam through her challenges doesn't build the trust they need to solve anything. At every point, Leia undermines Willi, despite calling him.

I think it's important to recognise that Leia is trying to sabtoage Williams return far more than anyone, and is far more antagonistic to him than Katie is. The way Katie, Leia, Dylan and Scarlet ALL know about the illegal activity, ALL know about the nightclub and pimping, ALL know about Asavera etc. and no one is doing anything as simple as asking Abigail directly like William did in a day or so, suggests they have a pretty clear idea of what's going on regardless of what Willi finds out. Willi is there not just because he can be trusted not to be part of it, but because he can sniff out the incosistencies that they're too close to tell.
interesting points, thanks.

but i'll have to disagree on some :D

even if Katie could go ask, she is still part of that family, and she is still under Leia's thumb (even if Leia doesn't trust her). There is no way any cop worth their weight would disclose anything to any of them. MC just coming back, and being Helen's favorite, has a very different status from any of them from the points of view of cops, and especially Abigail. He literally came back because of Helen's accident after more than a decade having his own life elsewhere.
and all you said only reinforces me in thinking Leia wanted to provoke a strong reaction in Monica to try to unveil anything else she could have. honestly, corrupting her current boyfriend and blackmailing him is much easier than making Monica like MC enough that she would confide in him :D
the fact that Leia is antagonizing MC at every turn, to me, it only reinforces the idea that he was her very last resort that she didn't want to use at all cost, that's how desperate she was in finding out the truth.
 
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HiP1

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There is smthing,that i don't understand correctly last chapter.Conversation with Dylan.He said that he and Helen had a lot of ups and downs in their relationships.And losing two....That part of losing two i don't understand.Two children or what?
might be referring to MC and Leia. after her depression and near death like state, she wasn't the same anymore and barely registers any family member. i think Dylan feels like they lost her too.
 

Doomyk

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A little observetaion.At the first meeting, Miru tactfully goes outside and gives Leia time to talk with William. Which is very different from the old version of the game, where Leia literally throws Mira out into the air.But this is in strong contrast to the first meeting with Monica, when Monica throws Ben out into the air.
In general,i have a feeling that the new Monica received some features of the dev's work from the old Leia, but the new Leia.... In the old version of the game, William mentioned some crazy obsessed princess who set him up and he ended up in prison. Do you see the dots?It seems that new Leia has that personality.And this plot leads us to William’s prison. Only this time William was not framed (I don’t think Leia would have done this, at least in the past), and the fact that William took the blame completely on himself did not frame Leia.At least, this is how I see events unfolding to show the ambiguity of William's actions and lead to some catharsis with Leia.
 

Mortarion

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might be referring to MC and Leia. after her depression and near death like state, she wasn't the same anymore and barely registers any family member. i think Dylan feels like they lost her too.
That was also coming to my mind, and would be valid if you only consoder the past. But from my understanding this this even more unlikely, as my rubbish that was posted from me a little bit above - no offense!

I have this opinion because Leia is still present and participate in the family life. Leia my be distanced, more than less to busy with her work to join the big family breakfast every day but she is still there - contraire to William who was during a night an fog action vanishing into thin air. She may be not so close to the others than they had wished, but this is . in my opinion far from "lose someone"


In the old version of the game, William mentioned some crazy obsessed princess who set him up and he ended up in prison. Do you see the dots?It seems that new Leia has that personality.And this plot leads us to William’s prison. Only this time William was not framed (I don’t think Leia would have done this, at least in the past), and the fact that William took the blame completely on himself did not frame Leia
Sorry no, just no. Leia was way to surprised about Williams vacation behind Swedish curtains to have something to do with his part of Williams past.
 

BobTheDuck

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interesting points, thanks.

but i'll have to disagree on some :D

even if Katie could go ask, she is still part of that family, and she is still under Leia's thumb (even if Leia doesn't trust her). There is no way any cop worth their weight would disclose anything to any of them. MC just coming back, and being Helen's favorite, has a very different status from any of them from the points of view of cops, and especially Abigail. He literally came back because of Helen's accident after more than a decade having his own life elsewhere.
and all you said only reinforces me in thinking Leia wanted to provoke a strong reaction in Monica to try to unveil anything else she could have. honestly, corrupting her current boyfriend and blackmailing him is much easier than making Monica like MC enough that she would confide in him :D
the fact that Leia is antagonizing MC at every turn, to me, it only reinforces the idea that he was her very last resort that she didn't want to use at all cost, that's how desperate she was in finding out the truth.
The point I'm making is that Leia already spoke to Monica, it's in the script. Mon didn't tell Willi anything that she hadn't told Leia. Leia she knew that Monica and the investigation had been stood down by Abigial, who is Helen's best friend. Katie is Helen's daughter, just the same as Willi. THere's nothing special about Willi having been away as far as Monica, Abigail or the police is concerned, that doesn't make him innocent or reliable, especially as he spent part of that time in prison. The police can check his history out - and would - considering Leia's suspicious activity, and Joe's current incarceration. As far as the police are concerned, Willi is part of a potentially criminal family, and they know something's going on. Abigail meeting with Willi is as much a breach of protocol as meeting with Leia about a closed case. Stating that Willi is a fresh face means nothing to the police, only to Abigail, who might feel like Willi deserves to know as much as Leia and Dylan do.

*Interesting fact - looking through the script, Willi calls Abigail 'Angel Spencer' at one point, and Leia corrects him. I wonder if there's a history there.

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Easiest thing to get info from Mon would be to get Katie to take Mon out drinking with Zoey, they hang out all the time. Mon would likely spill more in that scenario.

Leia is not desperate to find out the truth - her desire to be strong and independant clouds every decision she makes. Willi is a thorn in her side in this regard, and she's making foolish decisions if she wants the truth. Both she and Abigail talk about people other than Asavera over Willi's head. It sounds like Leia and Abigail both know enough. So why send Willi on wild goose chases? Leia has a whole oranisation of people she pays, and she doesn't trust Willi as much as she trusts Emilio. Emilio's helping her do illegal things, and she doesn't even want Willi knowing she owns a nightclub.

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HiP1

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The point I'm making is that Leia already spoke to Monica, it's in the script. Mon didn't tell Willi anything that she hadn't told Leia. Leia she knew that Monica and the investigation had been stood down by Abigial, who is Helen's best friend. Katie is Helen's daughter, just the same as Willi. THere's nothing special about Willi having been away as far as Monica, Abigail or the police is concerned, that doesn't make him innocent or reliable, especially as he spent part of that time in prison. The police can check his history out - and would - considering Leia's suspicious activity, and Joe's current incarceration. As far as the police are concerned, Willi is part of a potentially criminal family, and they know something's going on. Abigail meeting with Willi is as much a breach of protocol as meeting with Leia about a closed case. Stating that Willi is a fresh face means nothing to the police, only to Abigail, who might feel like Willi deserves to know as much as Leia and Dylan do.

*Interesting fact - looking through the script, Willi calls Abigail 'Angel Spencer' at one point, and Leia corrects him. I wonder if there's a history there.

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Easiest thing to get info from Mon would be to get Katie to take Mon out drinking with Zoey, they hang out all the time. Mon would likely spill more in that scenario.

Leia is not desperate to find out the truth - her desire to be strong and independant clouds every decision she makes. Willi is a thorn in her side in this regard, and she's making foolish decisions if she wants the truth. Both she and Abigail talk about people other than Asavera over Willi's head. It sounds like Leia and Abigail both know enough. So why send Willi on wild goose chases? Leia has a whole oranisation of people she pays, and she doesn't trust Willi as much as she trusts Emilio. Emilio's helping her do illegal things, and she doesn't even want Willi knowing she owns a nightclub.

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Dude, I know Leia talked to Monica already. I even said that I think everyone talked to Monica... why do you want to make that your point when it's heavily emphasized in the story ? I also insisted several times that, for me, Leia hoped MC would provoke a reaction in Monica, enough that she would let something slip. that implies Leia already talked to Monica, bro.

MC being away makes a ton of difference. and he comes back after learning about the accident, that also makes a ton of difference. it means he wasn't part of all their family bullshit and business for all those years, and most importantly, it means he is not a potential suspect in the investigation. Usually people close to the victim are suspects, so all Helen's family are potential suspects too. the police know all of their crimes, but they can't prove it yet, that's all. Abigail is Helen's best friend. She knows what they all went through when MC ran away, they didn't fake it, MC wasn't part of their family for more than a decade, and he left when he was still a kid. he has no part in their crimes. and Abigail and Monica are who matters here, the rest of the police don't matter. MC is worlds apart from Leia and Dylan in their eyes, even if Monica still hates him.

Monica has been described as an exemplary cop. She would not let anything slip just because she would be a little drunk. and she would suspect that to be the purpose for the hang out anyway, and more importantly, she would not let herself get drunk enough to lose control. her reaction to a face to face with MC would be 1000s of times stronger than being drunk.

in that scenario of yours, there would be no reason, absolutely none, why Leia would call MC then. but she did. proving that whole scenario wrong.
 
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